₦airaland Forum

nuclearboy:
probably believes Hitler was a good Christian too

Well, you can argue that he was a Christian, since he did not officially renounce his baptism and all. He certainly wasn't an atheist. He generally riled against atheism, promising to "stamp it out", but I guess given his love affair with the likes of Nietzsche (his works) and Mussolini some may argue he was just performing for the crowd.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=478028.msg6378860#msg6378860 date=1279033458] It isn't 'Christianity' at work there. It's the Roman Catholic Church and its priests and employees. Europeans may have brought Christianity here but they didn't originate it. They wouldn't get slaves if we weren't selling our kin for trinkets. The Asians had known Europeans for much longer and weren't selling their people to them. We Africans had been keeping slaves before they came, and we saw nothing wrong is selling fellow Africans to them.  Yet it's those same Europeans that fought for the abolition of slavery, some of them at the cost of their own lives. America went to war with itself over it, North fighting South over slavery. It wasn't all the priests in RCC that went along with what was happening during the Middle Ages. But those who had the courage to protest had a habit of being burnt for 'heresy'. Those people had been led to believe, in the absence of a bible, that RCC priests can damn their souls for eternity, and so they did evil in terror of 'excommunication'.

Stalin was an atheist who murdered Christians by the hundreds of thousands, and had them involuntarily committed to mental hospitals and tortured till they renounced God. Hitler twisted social darwinism into some romantic Volk nonsense where Aryans were the superior race and contaminants like Jews, Gypsies and the feeble must all go. At least thirty-five million people lost their lives through him in WW2. Mao wanted to implement radical atheistic Marxism, and something like 40-100 million Chinese died as a result. Cruelty is a human failing and has nothing to do with religion.

There is no foundation in the Christian gospels for the evil the RCC did. Quite the opposite, which was why they kept the bible away from the 'masses' for over a thousand years. Christians didn't  have a bible until the 16th century or so, and then only through the efforts of people like William Tyndale, who translated it into English. The KJV is based on his work. For his trouble he was hounded over Europe by the RCC, strangled and burnt. The bibles he had given out were collected by a RCC posse. His friends courageously continued his work. Christians in antiquity believed whatever the Roman Church told them to believe. It was when people began to read the bible for themselves and saw no basis in the gospels for all the excesses of the RCC, that they rebelled and separated from RCC, and things slowly began to change.

Can the Catholic Church come now and say it wants to torture people and burn them based on its contents? The ignorance on which their power was based is gone. Ethiopia, one of the oldest Christian nations in the world, was not under the influence of the RCC and has its own bible, the Ethipian Bible, till this day. Europe did not originate Christianity. Ethiopia existed peacefully as a Christian country for centuries till one of its emperors was converted to Roman Catholism. That was the end of peace. Religious murder began. Ethipians who didn't accept Catholism were killed by the thousands.

When an evil person has power, evil happens, be he a psychopathic Pope or Hitler or Stalin or Foday Sankoh. But what has what RCC did in the past to do with the present? No one is happy about it, but it happened hundreds of years ago. All the participants are long dead. They did not bring the Inquisition to Africa, they kept it within themselves in Europe. You can't deride Christianity for what some people did in the past. It's the same  as saying Sani Abacha killed Saro Wiwa in the past, but both of you are psychopaths because you're both Nigerians. It makes no sense. The Middle Ages were evil times because evil men had great influence. Do you know many Catholic Christians fought what their own Church was doing then, some at the cost of their lives? If we had been living in those times would you have had the courage to do the same? You're trumpeting the evil some people did in the past, but what about the great good that many others did?   

Moslems are killing Christians in your country NOW. They killed people this week in Kano. I read of a Christian they threw a tire on and burned to death in your native country. Why don't you add the photo of that man burning to death to your collection up there? Why not incite people to despise Islam or the great mass of peaceful Moslems who do not support religious killing? Why not dredge up pictures of what Islamic authorities did to Arab Moslems in Saudi one thousand years ago and start calling Islam names and inciting non-Moslems to hatred of Islam? What's the point you're making here?There's more than enough evil going on in the world TODAY to occupy you. Perhaps you should spend your time drawing attention to those than bringing up a dead past that has no relevance to the present. There's no evil religion, there are only evil people.[/quote]I hope oga ROSSIKE has got something to chew the cud on tonight.

@Mad_Max
Fabulous write-up, first-class reasoning! I'm ordering the book and will endeavour to make out time to read it. I was looking to get your views on that oft quoted verse used to support "Christ quoted from Genesis". Looking forward to more and other topics of discussion you have.

ePAYSYSTEM:
God used dreams in time past and no longer today, so do not be deceived when a dream seams so promising and you think its of God.

Can you expound on this?

ePAYSYSTEM: God has not given dreams and portents to Christiandom Clergies of today, mark that: Jer. 29:8,9

I am lost as to how you know know Jer. 29:8,9 refer to "Christendom Clergies". Can you explain?

I just started reading and these stories are really fascinating. (Been offshore, as usual). I will like to make some quick observations and await your response to them. I find Storm’s interesting, too, and will seek out the book. Much of what he says happens to agree with what I have always been convinced is true in respect of God’s relationship with man.

In spite of the several levels of fascination you mentioned, I still have my reservations about Storm’s testimony. You see, he came from a Christian society and had a Christian childhood complete with Sunday school and all. Even an atheist adult retains much of that. I mean, when he started praying to "God" it was the Christian concept of God that came to his mind. But maybe when I read the whole story and then other experiences and make comparisons I will be helped to understand things better. . . I am looking forward to reading from people of other backgrounds who had NDEs.

I agree with you about what I feel is the ludicrous aspect of contemporary Christianity – justification by confessing an article of faith. And I would like to know how you reconcile your assertion that Christ did not refer to the Adam story with his direct quote from Gen 2:24 in Matthew Mt 19:4,5?

nuclearboy:
No DeepSight, what we are unable to face is your embrace of "leading the witness".

A day in the life of DeepSight

DeepSight smiles: "A" is a member of the alphabet, isn't it
witness: YES, it is
DeepSight: I like "A". very lovely design, so algebraic it almost brings on a hard
witness nods smiling (not realising a trap is being set): "I agree. Sort of sexy"
DeepSight: I like "S" too and it is also a member of the alphabet, isn't it?
witness smiling agreeably though wondering what the noise is about: "Ah yes, it is another favorite of mine"
DeepSight: All alphabetic characters come from the arab world. They have that in common, did you know?
witness (ecstatic he at least has not an enemy in the counsel): yes, yes, yes
DeepSight FROWNING: now since you know they have the same source and CANNOT debate that, and both are of lovely design WHICH IS INELUCTABLE plus both are alphabetic characters, a LOGICAL STATEMENT you have allowed credence to, it is THUS LOGICAL AND NATURAL THAT "A" and "S" are the same and nothing but the same and this is INCONTESTABLE
witness (thinking to self and afraid of being bitten in the face) - abeg, wetin this guy smoke wey he near me like this. Says aloud: "Ehm ehm oga lawyer, I fit go piss?"

nuclearboy: Worth considering! Kinda strange for you to be the only one who sees yourself as objective, isn't it?

This is neither true nor fair. Actually, it may be true to a certain extent, but certainly not fair. When it comes to religion most people are unobjective, except to themselves. That is, you are "the only one who sees yourself as objective." That applies to you, nuclearboy, but only on certain issues. It applies to Deep Sight sometimes - but it is would hardly get more than a paragraph if I were asked to write a book on him. There would be other matters sticking out a mile.

And maybe someone other than me will say it applies to me sometimes, too, even though I don't see it does.

maedan:
After sooooo long, ogbono is finally catching up with 62 to egusi's 64. Could it be that people are finally seeing the light?? .

^^^ You can say that again. I think they are only just emerging from the desiccated wilderness of egusi into the smooth sailing, tantalising, pleasant (albeit slippery, be careful!  ) world of ogbono. Finally they are realing the power packed into that slippery soup. Anyone still in doubt needs to visit Edo State to eat the authentic one!

vescucci:
Aww, Image. I'm touched. Really I am. There're many faiths beseeching also. With even less confusing doctrines. The fact the gospel writers reckon so much with the old testament sef makes me shiver. But that's digressing. Let me answer you one post at a time.

Let me clarify first that I'm not part Christian or something. I believe in say only ten percent of the bible. That even only means I agree with those parts and not some knee-weak conviction. I believe in the truths of some other holy books. The Eden story is more or less the same in Islam but Muslims say every man is born sinless. He can only be influenced by his parents and surroundings. He is responsible for his conduct only once he attains maturity and anything before then matters not. I'm comfortable with that. To me sin is nothing but going against God's will. Simple. If God ordained that we ought to slap our parents in the morning and sleep with our sisters, those would be good deeds. If He says we should never show affection, it would be sin to do so. It is that simple to me. Then if you say Adam was created perfect, it would be impossible for him to sin. Simply impossible. It is impossible for Jesus to sin, is it not? For Adam to sin at all shows free will is the only thing responsible for sin and nothing more. Nothing like original sin. Every man is responsible for himself. The blood sacrifice of the Jews is not exactly meant for atonement but I don't wanna digress. I believe God is not incapable of simply forgiving someone. He can do so if He wants. Ask for forgiveness and you get it. Which kinda creepy justice is only moved to punish sin and never reward righteousness. You gave examples of children naturally behaving naughty. Well, you the parent bother to teach them morals. Why do you bother? Is it not cuz you want what's best for them. I'm sure you'd give your life to save your family from certain death. Even atheists with no hope of a hereafter would do so. Even animals will do so. If we were not also inherently good, every society would be anarchist. We tend to do evil, yes. But we also tend to do good. You have a conscience whether you're a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. So Adam messed up on his behalf. I'm responsible for my behalf. The only thing he might have denied me is Eden. On to the next one.

Excellent post!

Iyineda, it's called "logic of contamination"! 

Yeah, maybe no biblical basis. But how about other bases, or does the Bible contain everything? If I find that post I will paste it.

noetic16:
There is no biblical basis for such belief. . .as such Nope. However I do concede that there is nothing impossible with God.

I am surprised at this. I read a post where you said you have seen reincarnation – not your exact words but something like that. Now you reject it just because you can't find it in the Bible?

No need to worry about supercali. . . and the other ones. Such words would come to you naturally if you are PastorAIO.

Oh, about my absence? Went offshore - in the cyber sense.

@noetic16
I read what you wrote and, honestly, I admire your brilliance in making Bible applications. I can’t do a point-by-point on it now. I disagree with much of it but am in 100% agreement with your first sentence. There you used the word “possibility”. Very apt. My answer is YES. Yes, I have considered the possibility that I am wrong. The possibility that noetic16 is wrong. The possibility that the Quran is wrong. The possibility that the Bible is wrong. Now, have you? 

And you appear to have missed the fact that Satan did not shoot barbed arrows at Job, found they could not penetrate a hedge and then rushed to God to ask that the hedge be removed. The hedge was simply a figurative reference to divine protection which shielded the person of Job, his people and his material property from everyday ravages of diseases, natural disasters and marauder bands, because of his closeness to God afforded through his faith and works. Satan was merely observing a procedure, like asking your father's permission to take the car keys even though they lie carelessly on the table.

To the rest of what you wrote, I complete endorse this (if you remove "Godhead", a trinitarian word I am hardly comfortable with):

Deep Sight:
^^^ Any person with the slightest apprehension of the Godhead must instantly dismiss the notion that it is possible for any spirit being to attempt to "depose" God, or "enter into war" against God, or try to become like God.

Such an endeavour is even more implausible when once considers that the lead coup plotter is said to be an angel of such high office that the eternal, self-existent and intangible nature of God is doubtless known to him. That God IS is something such an angel would know and in light of this it becomes comical to conceive of such a being attempting to war with the intangible self-existent reality that is God, or become like God.

These really do sound like ancient semitic folk tales; which is what they are anyway.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=436863.msg6346009#msg6346009 date=1278523835]Can I ask what you are? Are you New Age? Grail? What? Doesn't matter but it would be nice to know.[/quote]I do not subscribe to any creed in its totality. I am also not a member of any religion, since I do not believe God requires any formal worship or intervenes in human affairs. I believe that preconceived ideas should not stand in the way of the truth – assuming it is granted to man to know the truth while here. However, I do see many written principles, such as the words of Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount, the sayings in the sixth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita addressed to pupils of Yoga, and several others, as useful guides for life.
[quote author=Mad_Max]About the intermediate reality thing, I read quite a lot  of Near death experiences. It bears it out. I'm talking about people who actually died for hours and came back during autopsy or days later when their corpses were already rotting. It's been well established NDEs are not a function of the brain, or from a 'lack of oxygen to the brain'. Their spirit separates from their body, fully conscious. They watch their body and the people around but can't interact, and then stuff starts happening. They start seeing realms or religious personalities they believe in: Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, etc. They may go a heaven of their culture or religion, and see people who believed the same as they. They may go a hell of their religion and see it populated by whatever they had believed would be there.  Buddhism says it's just their mind and their beliefs projecting all that stuff, and after a while, the true reality of God would intrude on their created worlds and the real deal starts. Unfortunately,most NDEsare still in their created realities by the time they return tpo their bodies. So they have 'confirmation' of all their beliefs, but since they hadn't gone to the Real Reality where God is, bring back nothing about the workings of the place.[/quote]There is something in that ^^^.

[quote author=Mad_Max]The interesting NDEs are the atheists who have no beliefs and so don't experience the intermediate stage but go the True Reality direct. They're really eye-opening. Some of their experiences are horrifying, but they are the ones who get to the Real Reality and so interact with Christ and see how the place works. Most people who see 'jesus' in their intermediate stage sometimes see what they expected to see, a gentle human radiating love. But atheists encounter a being of unspeakable love and light that has a physical presence but is not human in form. I was struck by that until I realised the human form only exists on earth. Some of them went through untold horrors in places they didn't believe existed until they were rescued when they called to God for help. It is usually atheists that tend to have the presence of mind, after a long time being comforted and weeping and recovering from their terrible ordeal, to ask questions of Christ and get mind-blowing answers. Needless to say, no atheist has ever returned from an NDE and remained an atheist lol.[/quote]Jeez! Got to starting reading some NDEs. Can you email me real interesting stuff or links? editors008@gmail.com

[quote author=Mad_Max]MyJoe, if you don't want your plans messed up, you don't give a thing free will. Being given free will meant creatures are to free to choose God or not, and are not under compulsion to be with him. It means creatures are free to oppose the will of God. We human beings mess up God's plans every single day. There's nothing impossible about it.[/quote]I agree with highlighted. Now let me try to make my point clearer.

Actually, my view is that the Omnipotent God does not make plans. I think when it is time for something, he does it. Plans are tentative, subjective and blind. Just when you think you had made allowances for all possible hitches, something pops out and the cookie crumbles, spewing some fragments into your eyes. No, planning would be for puny beings like us. Now, my point is that if God’s set purpose was for man to live in paradise and sing his praises all day, then no angel, satan or reptile could have messed that up. It is impossible. What I find far more plausible is the idea that God created us and gave us free will. Period. With that freewill some choose to be bad. This is a world different from messing up God’s plans that everything is good and lives in paradise. The idea behind this theology, which I do not buy, is that the loving God did not want us to experience bad things like cancer, plane crash, poverty, IBB, genocide, oil companies, acid rain, politics, global warming, corruption, Gaza, abortion, and the like. It is my view that God neither willed these for us nor willed them from us. He simply created us and gave us free will. Deep Sight used a word I like in his post above: neutrality. Our evil thoughts and works brought the bad things about. Did God know some people will use their freewill to upbuild while others will gravitate towards darkness? Obviously, this is not a useful question.

[quote author=Mad_Max]The Greeks have a story similar to the Judaic one. Zeus is the Head of the Greek Gods and rules on Olympus, home of the Gods. But Zeus is not the father of the Gods. He himself had a father, Kronos, but there was a rebellion and Zeus killed his father and became the Supreme God, reigning on Olympus. The parallels with the Judaic version is obvious, except in the latter, the rebeller did not succeed. So things rebelling isn't confined to the Jews, though it's possible they borrowed from each other, but the details are far too different, especially as symbolized in Revelations.[/quote]Yeah, details are different. At least Zeus had reasons for deposing Cronus. In fact, if there was no Zeus to depose Cronus then Zeus ought to have been invented. For Zeus, a plea of provocation would stand up in any court where Western-type democracy reigns. Whereas, the Christian satan just woke up one bright summer morning and decided to depose his Omnipotent Creator!

[quote author=Mad_Max]You think evil and good are different sides of the same coin?[/quote]The nature of being, the self-existent or eternal nature of things is not something I get into everyday. If you dig around here you will unearth some threads where some of the most brilliant minds on this forum debate whether numbers truly exist or not. Brilliant arguments you will find but strip the posts of all their intellectual wrappings and all you are left with is the old chicken and egg debate.

[quote author=Mad_Max]Two sides or expressions of God?[/quote]No. Or better, still, I don’t know.

[quote author=Mad_Max]Actually the Genesis story, though allegorical, clearly used a snake to symbolize Satan, the Old serpent, the deceiver, and right off the bat, it was obvious this creature was in opposition to the Genesis God, and worked against God. And other parts of the Old testament, Older than Zoroastianism, lamented the fall of Lucifer, calling him glorious and beautiful and almost matchless, until 'iniquity' was found in him.[/quote]You are referring to Ezekiel. You see, I skirted this when I wrote my earlier post, and I am still not inclined to take a serious jig at it now. But the Lucifer of the OT is not the same as the contemporary Satan, that is, the one that was picked up by later Judaism, was fairly well-established by the time the Gospels were written, and was given a prime seat when modern Christianity was assembled by the Bishops. Several Christian theologians are of this view as you will find if you research it.

[quote author=Mad_Max]More than once in the Gospels Jesus seemed to be speaking directly to the creature. My puzzlement stems from the fact that people freely choose their actions and our free will isn't interfered with, so why would a Satan be necessary here?[/quote]That is one good reason why a satan would be superfluous. But, then, it is in our nature not to take responsibility for our actions. That is why we have a vested interest in Satan. Christians ought to be praying for his good health and long life.

[quote author=Mad_Max]Evil came about because humans have free will? So we created evil in a sense?Evil did not exist before humanity did? That's new. [/color][/quote]Ha! Reading that ^^^ into what I wrote is an act of violence. 

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=436863.msg6352741#msg6352741 date=1278613313]  MyJoe, where is you? I've a dozen things I'm puzzled by and would really like your view on them.  Your views won't be debated though I hope I can ask clarifying questions. I was going to ask something about the Eden/Adamic fall of man genesis story, but knowing what to ask is a bit awkward if one doesn't know your religious beliefs. I don't even know Deep Sight's. [/quote]Deep Sight has provided some useful perspectives. Perhaps you want to flesh your question some more now you know my religious beliefs, or lack of them. Oh, Deep Sight is an "intuitive and empirical deist".  So you are like addressing two deists.

And you are welcome to ask questions or debate.

Deep Sight:
If this is not masochism on my part, I do no know what else is; but at the risk of my psycological balance and with great peril to my personal safety I will attempt again to give you my unsolicited and I know much despised views regarding the question you have hinted at: the garden of Eden.

I don't see any despising or any of the above around here at all. The question was clearly also addressed to you, hence the expression of being at a loss as to your world view.

[quote author=agi-tuedor link=topic=436863.msg6343226#msg6343226 date=1278494654]Very insightful, thanks.[/quote]Yes, very insightful.
[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=436863.msg6342729#msg6342729 date=1278486179]Actually, I wanted myJoe and ttalks view on this, as they're Christians and will be discussing things from a Christian perspective.[/quote]Actually, I'm not a Christian. 

Does Satan exist as an independent entity? The short answer is I do not find it plausible.

Below is the fairly long answer.

First consider the candidates nominated for Satan by the Abrahamic faiths, particularly Christianity and Islam. He was made by God, but he turned bad and started messing things up. This Satan is presented as the powerful ruler of an underworld kingdom whose sole preoccupation is to do evil, stop Christians worshipping God, and stop people from becoming Christians. Hardly makes sense. Whatever was Satan thinking when he rebelled against an omnipotent God who created him, knowing he could not hope to win? And some angels were so dumb to sail with him? Remember these guys relate with God one-on-one, unlike humans who don’t and so sometimes doubt the existence of God. And this just brings God to the level of humans – making plans and having such plans messed up. Impossible.

I believe you are aware that this satan belongs to latter Judaism and Christianity. The book of Genesis says nothing at all about Satan, but a precocious snake, much like the sow that suckled Romulus. The emergence of Satan as the embodiment of darkness in the conflict between light and darkness and as opponent of God was  borrowed from Zoroastrianism after contact with the Persians.

Then consider the traditional Hebrew satan, the one depicted in the book of Job as a member of God’s own court, acting as God’s intelligence chief and testing who is worthy of favour. He also performs a similar role in Genesis, where he tests the first couple to find out if they were worthy of the paradise bestowed on them, except this first time he was yet to get into the habit of obtaining God’s permission.

Interestingly, this is also the kind of satan sponsored by the Eckanker movement, that is, God’s man Friday and head of KGB. I think it’s possible to find some similarities between this kind of satan and Esu of Yoruba mythology and Hermes of Greek mythology. Which certainly does not apply to the Satan of Christianity and Islam subversively named Esu by Yoruba adherents of these faiths.

In any case, I fail to see the need for, or workability of, this kind of Satan. How does he tempt people? Does he have the power to influence thoughts? Like he incited David to number Israel in one account, by which coup he successfully forced Yahweh to dispatch the hosts of heaven to slaughter thousands of Jews. Nobody would be safe from him. Does he work by making life hard for you so you would curse God like the case of Job? When I tragically lost two sisters a few years back could that be Satan trying to see if I will curse God, having obtained God’s permission to try? Again we would all be unsafe and just be balls on a billiard table. Worse, this would reduce God to a ghoul who revels in watching mischief from an imperial throne. You know, the kind of “God” described in the movie, “The Devil’s Advocate”. And what we see around us does not tell us that people who suffer hardship are more likely to curse God by words or action than those who live in affluence, does it?

I am not quite as certain as Deep Sight about what is eternal and self-existent and what is not, or about light and darkness being centripetal and centrifugal respectively. (Mind you, I am not dismissing that, just not as certain as Deep Sight about it.) But it does appear that if there were no bad things around we would have no conception or measure of the good. I believe the world is the way God created it, with good and evil existing side by side and with men having the freewill to choose. I am not suggesting that God created evil, just that it was bound to come about with men having freewill. I guess that is why Deep Sight sees these things as self-existent. The existence of Satan would take away that freewill since Satan has supernatural powers and we don’t. Just a bit of that power would be all it takes, since, unlike God who endows us with and respects our freewill, Satan is said to have a consuming passion in getting us to buy shares in his venture.

But who really needs a satan, anyway? We may have lost Joseph Stalin, Foday Sankoh, Ali al-Majid, Samuel Doe, Papa Doc, Pol Pot and the others, but as I write this, Omar Hell-Bashir, Ibrahim Babangida, Ramzan Kadyrov, Than Shwe and a few others are still capably in the business of underwriting evil in the world.

From what can be observed, the concept of alternate realities as taught in Tibetan Buddhism and several other worldviews is something one cannot dismiss. It appears whatever you believe strongly in takes on significance in the spiritual plane, becoming your world. This has been dealt with earlier in this thread. I will like to put “evil spirits” down to alternate realities, but I cannot be so certain about this. While I consider that a likely possibility, there is another possibility of dead people whose volitions are evil having something to do with it. Now that (italics) is pure speculation. Same as I would have offered if you asked me about Paul the Octopus.

You certainly can. But you may not expect quick replies because:
(1) I am crazily busy at the moment.
(2) I only come online at certain times.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=369330.msg6339993#msg6339993 date=1278432715]Awwww, hon. I've no interest in derailing the thread. The matter was laid to rest long ago. One argues major religious doctrines with someone who knows major religious doctrines. Your 'challenge' wasn't worth taking up by anyone who knows better. I see you're performing for some 'objective reader'. Ah. No wonder the theatrics. Enjoy. [/quote]
This girl!

I thoroughly enjoyed that three-way bout between three of our heavyweights - the mercilessly Deep Sight, the inimitable PastorAIO, and the ferocious female, the Mad Max.

JeSoul was right, of course, about both sides having good arguments. It reminds me of something m_nwankwo said in another thread about the core message revealed to the messengers throughout the ages being the same. But, of course, when you look at the core doctrine on some of the most important matters, say, God or God's ontology (where's noetic16? ), death and the afterlife, you tend to see very sharp differences.

But I won't have said no to a continuation of the intellectual fisticuffs. Anyway, Deep Sight and Nuclearboy are doing a good job of this very important matter of sacrifice.

Image123:
MyJoe, your position is clear and 'accepted'. There's little difference between the bolded 'christian view' and your suggestion. My point is give your advice if you have one and leave, no point casting stones as an hobby. One cannot be 'real born again' without demonstrating repentance.

If you say so.

But my experience is that people are led to believe they can replace work or acts of love with the prescribed rituals - stating the article of faith, attending church, praying, tithing, working for the church, and so on. Actually I just put it wrongly. People are not taught about the need for work at all. You see,  if you take food from people’s mouth and make them go hungry, for instance, you will have to demonstrate your repentance by working to put food in people’s mouth. There is no declaration of faith found in any scripture that can cancel that out. I presume you are a pastor, do you teach your flock something along that line?
I also don’t believe that working for or giving to the church and working for or giving to disadvantaged people is the same thing.

Image123: Forgiveness is not in the feeling but in the trusting.

No where did I convey the thought that that feeling occurs in a vacuum. For a believer as she is, it is anchored on trusting that she is forgiven. For an atheistic humanist it would be anchored on the knowledge that you are doing the right thing by humanity.

Image123:
I adviced the OP to go to HER pastor, not A pastor OR to older and responsible people. She claims to seek sincere, honest and biblical advice. Sorry, it's safer to get such advice from people you know and regard as older and responsible than here on the internet.

This is a matter of opinion. I personally have nothing against people seeking advice in an anonymous forum. And that is not mutually exclusive with seeking advice from people you know. In either case you will sift the advice you get to find something useful. So how is one superior to the other?

Image123: I believe you/one should trust his OWN pastor. It's your pastor for God's sake. If you can't trust your own pastor, na wa. Who then can you trust. Where is true love?

This position is deeply flawed. Just because you are someone’s pastor you are worthy? Your own pastor is a pastor. The bad pastors around are people’s pastors.

Image123: BTW, is it not true that SOME people may not receive God's blessings, at least if the insult the man of God? Oh common, get real.

I do not subscribe to any notions of “man of God,” so this is just your subjective religious view which I will not try to formulate an argument against. What I do know to be wrong and can increase the distance between you and God is to go around insulting anybody at all – your teacher, your neighbour, your friends, your relatives, your driver, your pastor, your wife’s hairdresser, your cousin’s ex-brother-in-law, your fellow Nairalanders, anyone!

Image123:
MyJoe
And your own recipe is what? Do good until you feel forgiven, you have averted the judgement hanging over you. What's the difference in recipe. To be right is not compulsorily to say someone else is wrong.

Here is what I wrote, in simpler terms, in case you missed the meat:
(1) Repent (heart condition)
(2) Ask forgiveness
(3) Make restitution.
The judgement hanging over bit wasn't really necessary, but I had my reasons for adding it and I stand by it.

Now the difference:
One says: God is love. Just ask forgiveness in faith, and you are home.
The other says: God is love and justice. For everything you do there is a reward, even if you are forgiven.

Now to your solution and why I personally won't recommend it:

Image123:
What is all these? Please go seek counsel from your pastor or older friends or some responsible people, not here. What is wrong with people? Yesterday was just sunday.

You see, the other day I was listening to a pastor on telly preach on why some people don't receive God's blessings. He listed two main obstacles
(1) Not paying your tithe
(2) Insulting the man of God.
Most Christian leaders, unfortunately, no longer preach holiness. They have other fish to fry. So I am dubious as to the quality of advice someone will get if she goes to them for advice.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=296450.msg6310889#msg6310889 date=1277925355]Tom Paine wasn't an atheist. He simply wasn't touched in the head and lunatic with religion. You're not fit to clean his house, much less impugn him after he's long dead. He wasn't an atheist, but so what if he was? [b]And which Christopher Columbus do you post so approvingly there? The same Columbus that massacred almost a million Aztecs in the so-called New World and destroyed civilizations older than his in the 16th century? I guess he's forgiven. He's mumbled religious mumbo jumbo and you're satisfied. That's fine. Let him satisfy his God and explain away one million murders and all those atrocities he and his men committed on those natives.[/b]Voltaire! Told to renounce Satan and he says, This is no time to make new enemies! LWKMD. If he sought the mercy of God he's long gotten it, so don't worry yourself on his account, dear. And what do you know? Y'all have composed the last words of some people here. Lol. Carry on, carry on. You and noetic2 are worth your weight in comic gold.[/quote]The criteria for the Christian heaven are well known.

The Christian recipe for you would be to ask God for forgiveness and believe you have been forgiven because you asked in the name of Jesus. Then get "real born again" and become, maybe, a church worker. This is not so. God is love, but He is also justice. Here is my suggestion: repent and ask God for forgiveness. Then demonstrate your repentance by protecting life and caring for the disadvantaged. Since you destroyed a life, or, to put it more accurately, denied a human soul an opportunity to experience earthly life, you need to care for and nurture life. If you think of ways to do this, I am sure you will find many. Prevent abortion whenever you can. Help children and babies in need. Care for animals. Once you resolve to do this and actually start putting your resolve into practice, you will feel light as you would have averted the judgment of God currently hanging over your head.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=467743.msg6305160#msg6305160 date=1277835152]As for MyJoe, hmmmmmmm. . . . . . .[/quote]What you'll need: (1) juju

ogajim:
^^ You two ever heard of "Separation of Church and State"?

Never did, gracious sir. Wouldest thou explain it.

ogajim:
Why don't you let those of us with actual votes decide come 2012? Have you figured out Nigeria's election that's even 1 year before that? You two don't seem to know enough for me to even continue on here, looks can be deceiving ya know!

OLAADEGBU:
I hope they can see clearly now that they have been duped, except for those liberal Christian who would like to see themselves as Christians by name only.

I don't think they have been duped. His liberal views on abortion, gay rights and other issues those folk in the South hold dear were not hidden before the elections.

OLAADEGBU: I don't think Obama will agree that the Bible can be used to govern the nation as he explains below.

Do YOU think the Bible can be used to govern any nation today?

Pastor AIO:
hen!! ye paparicious.  You mean such programs exist.  Abeg what is it called, I need to make sure that I've covered my tracks adequately.

Nah, you haven't. Want me to squeal?

JeSoul:
hehe, I "bullied" you because you're special. I haven't bullied anyone else you know . . .
  Dayum, see detective. Your powers are really scary. Did you also read through my boring paper?    

The internet is really something else. I tried one of those detective/tracking softwares one time - by just putting in my name, it gave all my previous addresses, possible siblings, schools and workplaces. Nifty tech smarts like yourself are few and far between (I hope) - that is good for us mortals just trying to have a lil fun surfing an internet forum. I guess we should all just thank God Tudor is not a religious zealot bent on jihad.

 So how much for your services? I would like a little dirt on MyJoe and Noetic.

No need to order the program - I'll come clean and satisfy your curiosity! Here's all the juicy, scandalous, murky details:

MyJoe is a biracial, polygamous, Lagos landlord. He likes any food prepared well.

Noetic is an ex-boxer in his late thirties. He likes amala and ewedu.

Satisfied?

You failed to provide complete info. Lemme help you. For the benefit of those who might be interested, is the pastor
(1) A male looking for a female?
(2) A female looking for a male?
(3) A male looking for a male?
(4) A female looking for a female?

Does "Age blw 20-26yrs." apply to the pastor or the sought for "real born again" husband/wife-to-be?

I thought I had seen it all!

I see. It had to be more than ol' Google. I was thinking there were some ways of getting it done other than "special software" which I thought belonged in the movies and the spooky world of espionage.

I still wonder why you "doubt" I would need this sorta protection. . .

Now I see why the Christian Right down South won't be voting for him come 2012!

You haven't answered my question though. What's your opinion on religiosity and eligibility for public office? Should one's religious views, affiliation, or lack of them matter?

Seems there's an anti-Obama militancy about!

But seriously, do you think one's position on purely religious matters should be a criterion for public office or a touchstone for measuring his success as a leader?

^^^ I think you can use some information about this belief of yours. It is unfortunate that you have bought a lie created by white supremacists to provide a theological basis for the slave trade and the subjugation of blacks. Remember the slave trade was a wholly Christian thing. Something was needed to help them get through it, so lies had to be invented. I cannot take you through the history right now, but have you heard of apartheid, the strict system of racial segregation that formerly operated in South Africa? The theological basis for it was provided by the Dutch Reformed Church, the Protestant church adhered to by the Majority of the Afrikaner whites in South Africa. The Church got its teaching from the verse you are here peddling and the body of teachings of John Calvin, the Protestant reformer who taught that some people are elect for salvation while some are disfavoured by God, "cursed" as you would put it. Even today nearly two decades after the end of apartheid, some DRC clergy men still preach this theology.

In reality, there is no shred of evidence that black people descended from any Ham. You, sir, are not under any curse. No atheism in that.

nopuqeater:
@Akwasi: My friend try from small group and see how it goes before you go face a harder and larger multitude.

I advise you win the people of christ for christ, first.

Very true. But I don't think he needs to travel. He needs to re-introduce Christ to Christians around him first. The gulf between Jesus' life and teachings as we read in the Bible and what passes for popular Christianity today is yawning. If he can fight the commoditfication of Jesus and the trimming, stuffing and re-decoration of his teachings, he would have made a good start by winning the people of Christ for Christ.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=467743.msg6302821#msg6302821 date=1277811938]Hmmmmm. . .why are you so curious?
I doubt someone like you will have enemies. . .[/quote]Lol! Now I'm really curious why you think so^^^. But what do you know?