₦airaland Forum

First, the constitution cannot be changed by congress. It takes 2/3 majority of the states to ratify a constitutional amendment before congress can sign it into law.

There are several and more important proposals waiting to be sent to the states conference for vote, primary among them - gun rights; interstate commerce; free speech.

The issue of citizenship centers on freedom and liberty and they will never get a ratification back from a state conference, unless they can prove that this birth situation is a threat and impedes on the rights of other citizens; which is not the case.

So Repubs need to focus on gun rights and leave mama pikin alone with her blessing.

Is the islamic bank in operation yet?

I think, katz, the appropriate question should be "who is the Sharia police" that monitors compliance?

In an Islamic state, its the Ummah - the council of scholars that interprete Sharia law.

In a non Islamic state they would be properly identified as non-interest banking, as opposed to Islamic banking.

For this reason, even when Koruji said "Islamic bank regulates, " , I responded and said "Sharia regulates".

alj, u want scare people. worry guys no nomads coming through.

But are their operations outside of Sharia injuncrtions? If you see I repeatedly stressed that point and referenced Sharia because I knew we will get to this point eventually on the forum. lol!

Why Eze, what"s the interest if they are or not? You dey fear nomads ? Nna dont worry as long you no dey inside Imo state nothing to worry.

Here you go on zakat question. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-712052.0.html

Koruji,

You are comparing and expecting parity between conventional and Islamic bank. Please don't do that. From outside looking in, each has its advantage and disadantage.

On the issue of interest earning savings, what are the contracts? If I deposit N10M can I expect to get interest? It depends if I have a contract with the bank to that effect.

Let me give a perspective which I'm sure you are familiar with: deriative investments, particularly hedge funds were not regulated. Their terms were based on individdual contracts with the investment company, totally unrestrained by conventional methods in regular banking.

Again, the Sharia need for an Islamic banking is strictly to protect against the damages of usury.

On Zakat, in my example on first response if you recall I said certain remittances are set aside for philantrophy. I did not want to preempt and give too much outside of the immediate points you asked questions on, but yes zakat is expected.

If you have questions on zakat look for a post here tited "almajiri" I wrote in there about zakat and its relevance.


Katz,
Please see below for my response to your dispute in (1). The quote is in my response from earlier this morning. For (2) I hope my response to Koruji above also answers your query.


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In the first the answer is that Sharia law and the official government rates dictates the bank's actions.

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What is that? I think u said: "I'm good, can you write in Arabic?"

Negro throws "salute", Yes Sir!

I agree 100 prcnt! In a discussion few days ago tpia and I touched on precisely this point on scalability of force for patriotic agenda.

Ekt,

OPC is reserved for serious issues particularly political related. They don't want to be dragged into something that can be resolved locally without too much hassle. 'ts reason for silence - they want big fish to take it to!

Eze,

What do u call igbo riverine? I'm talking about swamp and mangrove riverine u dey talk about river niger bank.

How u take compare Ilaje and Ijaw, both masters in mangrove swamp skills with Igbo wey dey fish upland for bank of river niger? Chei!

Anyway, you own that territory, abi no be so? So you get everything that comes with it, people and resources.

Eze,

They go with you. We havve Ilaje and we are happy with them. You need your own riverine people.

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bashr4:
you people should respect yourself, this thread is about ijaw taking over ithshekiri land and has nothing to do with igbo

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Oohhh, this is not about Igbo? Why didn't somebody tell me that from beginning?

Bashr, why you didn't state from the very first page? You dummy!

Dede "the brute"

Learn how to talk. Where is ChinenyeN to teach this brute how to adress people politely.

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1. Islamic Banking actually allows agreed profit rates on loans (akin to traditional interests). It has to, as many people have suggested, otherwise there is really no investment - it would simply amount to giving away one's money. The emphasis is really on keeping the interest "reasonable".

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Yes, this is true. I know you said "Islamic banking alllows. . . ", I understand what you mean and would state that "Sharia law allows. . . .".  If you leave the bank to make rules very soon human greed will creep in and you will end up in usury.

Sharia allows interexchange and profit and to nake profit the trader has to sell above cost. Similarly, the bank is a trader providing a service and must make profit. The profit is realized through profit sharing (interest on utility, but not on loan). There are many injunctions in the Quran that cover this and they are worded in various ways to convey the weight of the contract : "give measure for measure and do not place a burden greater than Allah has allowed"; "admonish the faithfuls to stay within their means when entering into contract"; "reduce your contracts into writing and obtain witnesses to attest to the agreements"; "Allah will not call you to account for what is error in your agreements but he will punish severely those who knowingly deny to His creations what He himself has not forbidden for them".  

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2. For the Islamic Bank mortgage loan, and this is what I think the quoted bank does, the profit (ijara) is first incorporated into the payments to arrive at a total amount, which is then used to calculate a monthly rental payment - this appears to be what they mean by this paragraph: "The initial Ijara amount that is financed by the customer, earns profit for the investor through monthly rental payments.  Traditional amortization calculations are utilized to determine the exact monthly payment.  The mathematical formulas are acceptable as there are no Sharia issues with mathematical calculations.  The major difference between a traditional mortgage amortization and an Ijara transaction is that the Ijarah transaction is based upon a reverse amortization calculation." Obviously, other rules for what happens if the customer decides to sell the house have to be included to specify how the bank will enjoy part of the gain or loss - this part is not very clear to me.

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Sharia is concerned and indeed contains vast mathematical calculations in both arithmetical and exponential expressions and on all aspects of interaction where equitable share is needed to establish fairness.

In matters of human interaction Allah says to his creations "I am close to you and I know the affairs of your heart". Meaning, I know your emotions and its bias nature. Then he said: "give measure for measure". In other words, He expects us to be bias when interacting with one another so its not likely we will treat one another equally but He wants us to be fair to one another. So "measure for measure" looks to some like if Islamic bank loan me N50,000 then I just pay back N50,000 and what I do with the money and how much I turn over on it is my prerogative. Wrong impression! First, the loan has to be for the purpose of a Sharia friendly usage and profit sharing [(a predetermined and agreed loan + nominal fee) and or (a predetrmined and agreed business partnership)] is attached to the investment.

In the second bracket, business partnership is not mandatory and the loan applicant has the right to agree or disagree. The first bracket with the precalculated armortization is mandatory on the investment.  

The major difference between conventional bank and islamic bank are the following:

1. Service Fees and commissions

2. Regulations and jurisdiction

3. Community centered

4. Capitalist/open market swings.

I'm sure there are more than just these 4 but you get the idea.


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3. Thus, if the conventional bank's interest rate and the Islamic Bank profit rate on a loan are the same then the rental/monthly payments in both cases should be the same(?)

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Ought to be but no they are not.

When you sign a conventional loan part of what you agree to is that the investor has the right to revoke the contract; right to increase the interest rate and applicable service fees, right to modify the contract; right to demand additional payments or securities in form collaterals. You hardly have any rights except what the investor gives you in a conventional loan and those are of no effect. Under civil law you have certain rights against an investor but they have lobbied lawmakers and reduced those laws to toothless tigers, you can file a suit but doesn't mean you win.

Also in a free for all open market where rates swing every three months, a conventional loan may be reviewed and modified unilaterally by the investor (he/she already told you he has that right) and cause the cost of servicing the loan to jump which then increases the burden of debt.

Also a major difference is conventional loan can be used for any legitimate business. What is legitimate business in a secular society is very often "haram" or forbidden in Sharia. A conventional loan can be used to open gay bar; casino; liquor store; brothel. Sharia forbids all these activities.

Its too many of these differences to list here but these three should be good.    



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4. There appears to be two contributions of an Islamic Bank mortgage: 1) It helps to ensure that the profit rate, depending on who is setting it, is reasonable i.e. it does not become usury. In reality, it seems that this depends on the bank being conscientious since the profit rate may vary from person to person - unless there are clearly written profit rates that the customer can use a guide. It also means that the profit rate doesn't have to follow official interest rate levels; 2) It helps to ensure that mortgage transactions are accompanied by actual transfer of property ownership i.e. people cannot keep selling the title ad infinitum like was done in the U.S. over the last decade.

This at least clears up a portential confusion that someone, being Sharia-Compliant, can walk into an Islamic Bank and get a loan without paying something in return for making use of the money. The main difference to a conventional loan is that the loan is attached to a specific activity at an agreed upon profit rate - it would seem that the minimum profit trate would be dictated by the "source" of the investor's funds. This is a potential problem - since there appears to be no counterpart rules governing the Islamic Bank's sources of funds or is there?.

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Yes to everything you said except in the beginning where you said the bank can arbitrarily charge rates based on local market; and at the bottom where you ask for a parallel regulating body.

In the first the answer is that Sharia law and the official government rates dictates the bank's actions.

In the second, Sharia law is the regulating body. Since the law is uniform regardless of country, location, people, circumstance, the bank is transparent and uniform wherever you find one. they all operate under same guidelines irregardless if its located in India, Nigeria, Brazil, South Africa, England, USA, or wherever else on the planet.


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I wonder how many potential Nigerian customers understand this, especially with the "non-interest' nomenclature.

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People should read and understand more on it. I'm glad we have a forum here where we can discuss it openly and share.
The only exchange in Islam that does not need a contract between strangers is charity. Everything eslse demands contract and fair treatment.

Sweet_gala,

Here is an advise, applies to everyone as well:

If you are going to use the service of an Islamic bank, then obtain information and get awareness on what it allows and forbids. I really want to say read the Sharia but that may be asking you to do too much. For those who that may interest, pay attention to the section on "contracts".

There is nothing in Sharia that forbids Christian or Jew, except what they have forbidden for themselves. So if a Christian says I'm not going to trade with Islamic banking because it is Islam, then this individual has forbiden his/her own opportunity, not that he/she was denied by the bank.

It is better to go by accomplishments of past to judge the potentials for future. If in 2002 fracas Ijaw backpedaled in the face of heat, what makes anyone now think they will not repeat a retreat if a firestorm breaks out? The 2002 bloodshed was so rapid and effective even Igbos fled home; and they were not even the direct target but what they witnessed was too powerful for their "megaphone bravery" to withstand, they abandoned everything and took off.

That's action, not all this mouth!

Edoyad,

Thanks for the pointer, I know what MOSSAD is and I stand by the statement. They lay the ground map for IDF to go into a hostile territory. But do you know they also go into combat alongside the regular force? Are you aware they go back and do a exit follow up?

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if this thing continues it may lead to bloodshed because, traders have vowed not to allow this to continue,” Umeh said.
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Igbos have sense for trading but very dumb when it comes to politics. This guy is the national chairman of a party that will field candidates for presidential seat.

He is not at deadlock yet but he already threatens bloodshed, one wonders what he will say or do if he reaches a deadlocked.

Very dumb, always putting their cart before the horse. Who wants to vote for a candidate this guy presents, this is political suicide.