₦airaland Forum

Afeni:
Do they? I have heard a lot about swiss chocolate (I'm actually have some right now that I think is swiss).

It is the best in the world. This is because of the choice and blend of cocoa beans that are used as well as the production process. Swiss chocolate is also excellent, but has little less body (think Milka from Nestlé)

Christino:
@ Nferyn,
Thanks for the link, I believe that was where my 2 points came from, preachers use them a lot too.

Yes, because the argument sounds convincing if you already believe. What is put before you, a believer, is really only a choice between two positions: believing in the Christian God or rejecting the Christian God.

Christino:
But the wager is still the bottom line. You either gain or lose. And the fact remains that one wager ends in a loss, one ends in a gain and there is a 50-50 chance. Which would be logical to choose, you should know?

Christino, the premisses are incorrect and the reasoning is flawed. Just some objections to make it a little clearer:
* There is no choice between two positions, it's a choice between hundereds of positions: many religions have their own path to God and say that theirs is [b]the [/b]path. This alone makes the wager untenable as an argument, unless you already believe (and thus have dismissed the other options on faith)
* The consequence of choosing to believe is not that you lose nothing. If you are a believer, you invest a considerable amount of time and/or money in your belief. Time and money that could have been spent on other things in a life that has a 100% chance of existing. It's wasting part of your life for a possibility that there is a God
* It assumes that belief is something you can choose. There is nothing indicating that you can choose to believe or not to believe.

Christino:
You have been told, smoking can cause cancer. Condoms can prevent HIV AIDs. (though this is more realistic)

Well, humans are not always rational in their choices. After all, to a certain extent we all seek out danger. the thrill of the moment can be more rewarding than the possible consequences afterwards.

Christino:
An open choice you know, i'm sure you chose the safer one didn't you?

In these two cases I certainly would, but sometimes the consequences of our actions aren't always very clear and there's a lot of luck/chance involved.

Christino:
Mind you, i'm not attacking your belief, i'm just telling you my experience. It's for you to reason with it or discard it. Thanks all d same.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion. At very least you open up your mind enough to listen to people with different opinions.

Christino,

Pascal's wager is a rather weak argument for the existence of the Christian God.
Here's an interesting debate on Pascal's Wager

lioness:
My point exactly.
Now why would i want to go on with this discussion?
We Obviously operate on different realms.

We agree to disagree. Great. Just wish more people would be so blunt and open about it.

lioness:
I really don't see any rational behind discussing God with someone who doesnt believe in God.

That's the heart of the problem, isn't it? When a believer discusses God with a non-believer, to make the discussion meaningfull, you need to enter the (possibly) shared field of rational discourse. The problem is that the foundations of those beliefs are hardly ever based on rationality, but rather on faith and personal experience, which can never be accepted at face value by a skeptic.
AFAIC, rationality doesn't really come into the picture, only faith and rationalisation of that faith. Just don't call your belief rational, because it isn't.

@ Eurphoria
Which Christian section?

@ Christino

thx 4 your reply, it allowed me to understand your position more clearly. You may not see it that way, but to me it's a quick and easy solution to the complex problem that is the meaning of life. No need for works, grace will do the trick. No need for logic or reason, faith will do the trick. No need to worry about the limited time we have on this planet, spiritual eternity will take care of that. No need to worry about too much about suffering, injustice and pain in this world, there will be a reward in eternity.

Instant answers to the fact that there is no ultimate purpose. Dream the sweet dream of those that doubt not but are steadfast and focussed in their faith.
I am incapable of something like that.

Christino:
The fact that most atheists were born religious (as in into christinanity especially) baffles me.

That really depends on where you live. I for one did not grow up in a religious household. Why exactly does it baffle you?

Christino:
They are just tired of going to church or being persecuted, mostly intelligent people anyway. Its just a pity their intelligence can't explain the future.

So? Can you explain the future? Do you believe in predetermination?

Christino:
With most of their facts scientifically based other than on assumptions or "FAITH", they can't be fooled (or at least not easily) - but I guess not this time around.
[s]Mind you I have no problem with them o, but I can't fold ma arms for long looking at this conversation heat up.[/s]

What are you trying to say? I'm not following.

Christino:
(First of all they said we came from monkeys, and we still have them around, where are the dinosaurs and the animals from which other animals came 2 be? Wiped off (extinction fa?)) - i'm not going into such details because i used to think i dropped from heaven , let's save it - one of [b]those mysteries Atheism has no explanation [/b]for

There is very solid evidence for all you're saying here and we have sound theories to explain it. Point is, it's not an easy subject and you have to study hard to understand it.

Christino:
The fact that they had a religious background or upbringing makes them freedomists and moralists which is good for all of us, but I don't bother about atheists below the age of 60. STOP DECEIVING YASELVES. (I'm not GAY O!)

My view on life and our place in the cosmos is based on solid logical and evidentiary grounds. What does age have to do with anything like that. Maybe you can apply the same type of logic to the believers. Can you be a true Christian before you turn 60?

Christino:
If you are an atheist @ 60, they you are a true atheist, but if you are for no other reason than influence then your are just a follower, no just cause, no reason, then you begin to read books on The Grail Message amongst others.

Your point? Please apply the same argumentation to theists and you'll see it's vacuous.

Christino:
Never mind, it's good when you've been there and done it, keep doing it, so you'll have a story to tell. But in the mean time, I think you should focus more on what's happening in the middle east and how to eradicate Terrorism instead of Jesus and Magdalene's baby, one of which is hmmn, (make i leave am).

This is just a discussion. Are [b]you [/b]over in the Midle East fighting terrorism?

Zahymaka:
Nferyn do you have any on programming or engineering?

I saw somewhere you talked about unprotecting PDFs. I tried writing a program extending an open source PDF library but I found I couldn't unprotect them. If I do get a breakthrough, I'll inform you.

Didn't really search for it, but you'll definitely find some bittorrents on these subjects.

omobolaluv:
HELLO,
PLS TELL ME HOW TO DO THAT, BECAUSE I NEED HELP IN THOSE PACKAGES, PLEASE SEND ME THE LINK PLEASE.
OMOBOLA

Tell me exactly what you need and I'll upload a textbook.

iice:
I LUV Chocolates The only ones i don't like are the very dark chocolates

It's an acquired taste

svs:
try ferrero rocher,ull change your mind

Try the Bouchees from Cote d'Or. Fine milk chocolate filled with delicious praliné (almond paste filling)

When I come over to the UK to visit my wife's family, I always bring chocolate. they just love it. The best chocolate is Belgian or Swiss. You can find lots of info on chocolate here:
http://www.barry-callebaut.com/
http://www.callebaut.com/en/10005
The main difference between high quality chocolate and mediocre chocolate lies in two elements:
* the cocao beans in quality chocolate are grinded to much finer powder
* only cocao butter is used as fat, no other fats are added (gives a mellow-smooth sensation in the mouth)
You can easily see the difference because [i]real [/i]chocolate melts very quickly. the chocolate they use in candy bars doesn't melt that quickly.

If you want to taste excellent mass market chocolate, try Cote d'Or (website currently only available in Dutch and French - pictures are inviting, though), especially the Sensations series are sublime (if you're into dark chocolate, that is)

You should come over to Belgium for some real chocolates. You can't find anything decent in the UK anyway and I guess that goes for Ireland as well.

Check out this:
http://www.godiva.be/index.asp
http://www.leonidas.be/uk/index.asp?langue=uk
http://users.skynet.be/chocolat/uk/index.html
http://www.benjis-direct.com/
http://www.neuhaus.be/

dakmanzero:
to nferyn:

1) As for the comment about atheists shutting up while religious people discuss amongst themselves, that is exactly what I mean. You will notice that a statement I made later on could similarly be interpreted as christians and other theists should shut up when atheists are discussing amongst themselves.

The reason for this is that the logic of both sides is based upon an incompatible set of atomic presuppositions, or axioms. A christian believes thye Bible is the word of God, come rain or shine, which atheists obviously do not. Science-loving atheists base their decisions on logical axioms, which religious teaching, rife with contradictions and inconsistencies (from a purely logical standpoint) , flies directly in the face of.

So each side should ignore the other, but acknowledge and respect their existence, and differences in opinion.

So what you're saying is that any attempt to have a rational discussion with believers is bound to fail and that I should accept irrational behaviour and positions. Problem is that irrational people have power and have a tendency to (ab)use that power. I find the messianistic zeal of the born-again US president Bush quite scary to say the least.

dakmanzero:
2) As for the talk of christians insulting you, that is exactly what you get for attempting to discuss religious matters in a way that implies you do not accept the Bible as the sacred word of the eternal creator. Insults. Be grateful they are insults and not bullets or bomb explosions.

Holding a religious belief is thus a get-out-of-jail-free card. I should actually be grateful that my [i]insolence [/i]is not met with deadly violence? You really don't believe that yourself, do you?

dakmanzero:
3) Nferyn, or the many other intellecvtuals who reject religious faith on logical grounds, may not become a rampaging savage when God is proven to be a fairy tale boogeyman, but the hordes of mindless masses currently dancing to the tune of the largest religious mobvements will.

They'll always find some other irrational thing to believe in. In a mainly religious society, those people believe in witchcraft, miracles and the like. In a mainly secular society, those same people will believe in alien abductions. They will be irrational, but that won't turn them into rampaging savages. Same coffee, different mug.

[quote author=dakmanzero link=topic=1678nd1.msg472919#msg472919 date=1152189251]Nferyn, please do not assume this is not the case. That will indicate a naivete of proportions that belie the wisdom reflected by your previous postings. People are, for the most part, stupid, violent and completely unreasonable animals. If you remove the threat of eternal burning in the fires of Hell, the world will become a meat-grier.[/quote]They will always find some other thing to believe in. The world won't become a meat-grinder. Our current state of affairs is actually the most civilised in all of humanity's history.

dakmanzero:
People like @nferyn should please not annoy these people by attempting to have a discussion on such a matter. A true christian will simply become more and more irate as you continue, because he views you as a blasphemer, and resents you for attempting to drive him to blasphemy.

That basically means that, if anything that touches religion is being discussed, atheists should just shut up as we might offend Christians or other believers. This is a very slippery slope, as for some, everything is touched by religion.

dakmanzero:
Please discontinue this. If you are here and a christian, please do not throw insults at those who are trying to discuss among themselves, and do not simply sit around and proclaim 'it is a lie because it is a lie', because that only makes sense from *your own* point of view, as a true christian.

People can believe in anything they want, as long as they don't insult people for holding different beliefs. I've been called a fool on many occasions, usually with the disclaimer I don't mean to insult you, but the Bible says you are a fool. The Bible can say anything it wants, but an insult stays an insult. It's using different measures for different people: they can throw insults at atheists, but the moment you question anything of their beliefs, you're a fool, a blasphemer and I don't know what else.

dakmanzero:
It is ok to say ' i believe it is a lie and nothing can change that' because that is you affirming your faith. I beg of the Atheists to refrain from mocking or questioning the intelligence of people who say this. Religion is the most important thing in existence for those that practice it, and it must be respected.

I never question Christian's intelligence, unless I have a strong reason to do so.

dakmanzero:
On topic: Whether Jesus married or faked his death is immaterial to me- what matters is not how the man lived his life but the effect his life has had on the world. So I do not care. If he faked his death, it was done so masterfully well that an entire civilisation has grown around that idea, and we would be fools to attempt to discredit the idea that he died on the cross for our sins.

Why?

dakmanzero:
I would rather live in a world where Jesus is thought to have died on the cross, than one in which the entirety of Christianity is proven to be a gigantic lie, and human beings worldwide turn into rampaging godless savages.

False ditochomy. It's not either the Christian faith or rampaging godless savages. I'm not rampaging and I tend to believe I have my savagery under reasonable control.

lordimpaq:
how come everything is so perfect? i mean the animals and so many other things, ?

If God were an engineer and designed humans and other animals, then he did a very lousy job. Perfection

damygurl:
i've alwayz believed in his existence ever since i can remember. the stuff i got to back the things i say are in the bible and i'm not really sure you believe in d bible. i don't believe all the so called scientific proofs they got to explain the creation of the world. if you let your mind wander and marvel at all the beautiful things around you and all the little miracles like the air, wind, rain, snow, how just a sperm is needed for a a baby to develop, how women are able to give birth, the pain , the joy and i've seen lots of real life miracles with my own eyes. there are lots of scientific proofs to explain most of these things but think about it, it's just too everything to be explained away by science.

You don't need God to marvel at the beauty and wonder of life and existence. You can appreciate everything the world has to offer without having to retort to a divine being. The whole God-of-the-gaps argument is prety lame as an argument for God's existence and personal incredulity (I cannot perceive it, so it cannot be true) is even less convincing.
Fact is, all these arguments can only make sense if you already believe in the existence of God, but they're quite unconvincing for people not holding that belief.

Drusilla:
Alj,

It's a book of fiction based on a very old European tradition of thinking of the Jews as stopping them from being God.

Not part of the book. It's only stringing together arguments from diverse sources trying to imply a point that the book doesn't make

Drusilla:
Napolean Bonaparte:

It's a wonder that Ceasar, Alexander and I have built great monuments. Yet it is a Judean peasant who has reached his hands through time and controlled the lives of millions. [pp]

They can not believe that a Judean peasant has outdone them all.

And this obviously must prove that the Da Vinci Code is teaching Hitler's religion?

Drusilla:
Nferyn,

The connection is clear and it is there.

You just choose to not see it.

I have read the book and found none of the "connections" you're presenting here. Where exactly did you find that connection while reading the book? Or are you making assumptions about the content of the book without having read it?

Drusilla:
The Davinchi code is the European answer for the fact that they feel that they are enslaved as a people to the Jewish religion.

Bull. It's a work of fiction based on Holy Grail mythology. You're seeing ghosts if you read that kind of message anywhere in the book. Have you even read the book?

Drusilla:
They been trying to cut Jews out of the picture for at least 1700 years.

Christians churches have been trying to minimise the Jewish roots of their religion since the beginning. The [i]Gospel of John [/i]is the first piece of Christian anti-Jewish propaganda that gained widespread approval. The only reason that it's mainly a European phenomenon is because Apostolic Christianity has it's roots in Europe.