I read with disgust and utter disappointment in Gov Fashola a newspaper report in far away Canada. How on earth could he order scraps as trains for lagosians use. Rather crazy. Read and comment please.

http://www.nowtoronto.com/mobile/#story.cfm?c=182186

Commuters in Lagos, Nigeria may be about to get some new trains of their own. Our old ones.

This sentence really cracked me up. . .Lmao

if the man buys brand new trains and charges premium for using them you muppets will be up in arms


better reinsert your head into gej's anus instead of challenging the mans moral , intellectual and all around superiors

useless Arrow - instead of cringing in shame at the foolol in aso rock, you are running your mouth at a man who is exercising the prudence that is absent from your oga billion naira food budget

nonsense

oyb:

if the man buys brand new trains and charges premium for using them you muppets will be up in arms


better reinsert your head into gej's anus instead of challenging the mans moral , intellectual and all around superiors

useless Arrow - instead of cringing in shame at the foolol in aso rock, you are running your mouth at a man who is exercising the prudence that is absent from your oga billion naira food budget

nonsense

Oh put a sock in it!!! Have we ever owned rail in Nigeria that purchasing brand new state of the art would be considered a PREMIUM? When Japan got the bullet train was it considered a PREMIUM too? Do you  think when we finally get the metro trains here replaced in Chicago, we(a broke city we are now) will consider it a premium?

It is definitely not bad to buy used but you ought to ask first why we are investing money in building technology that most cities around the globe are saying BYE BYE to.  If it is the case that we cannot afford better, then maybe ok, but ask at least. Not fume in the mouth that others would prefer we go for the gold on this too.

The Federal just spent $2 billion purchasing old locomotives, must the states follow suit?

you are missing my point

if lagos buys brand new trains and then starts charging n500 per ride, people will be up in arms. its mass transit, after all

with all the challenges facing lagos, i doubt if state of the art trains will be on the agenda.

oddly enough the people blathering about laughing stock probably have no problem with using cast off oyibo cars.

oyb:

you are missing my point

if lagos buys brand new trains and then starts charging n500 per ride, people will be up in arms. its mass transit, after all

with all the challenges facing lagos, i doubt if state of the art trains will be on the agenda.

oddly enough the people blathering about laughing stock probably have no problem with using cast off oyibo cars. 

I know what you are trying to argue but it is pointless attempting that. Again, has Lagos ever had high speed rail service before now that charging Naira 500 a ride should be considered a  premium? When Jakande proposed Lagos Rail project back in the 80's, do you think it was to start at $1 a ride?? Ofcourse not. Even the old LSTC rides were not cheap when they first came out. Because these things where new at the time but as time went by, the costs went down as more and more people used them.

If Lagos believes it is too challenged to go for up-dated rail, that is fine. But attacking people for mentioning the obvious, which is that we are building old and not for the new, when, again, cities across the globe are getting rid of their old so they can update to more efficient technologies, makes no sense.

I will remind you again that we have invested about $2 Billion dollars(not naira) at the federal level into obtaining 1970's technology in the year 2011. I am not sure about you but I don't have much confidence in that kind of spending. And I don't have the same confidence in states investing new money into old technology either.

An individual choosing to invest his own money in CAST OFF OYIBO CARS is one thing. But a State investing money that we expect to yield significant returns now and in the far future, in OLD TECHNOLOGY is another thing entirely.

As Toronto trainspotters gleefully take maiden rides on the TTC’s Rocket, commuters in Lagos, Nigeria may be about to get some new trains of their own. Our old ones.

[size=13pt]A TTC spokesperson has confirmed that the commission is negotiating with a private group to sell up to 260 used train cars to the West African megacity’s new transit project. [/size]

“I can confirm that the TTC is in discussion with a third party that wants to purchase trains for Lagos,” said commission spokesperson Brad Ross. “Over a period of time, they will be taken out of service and then transported over to Nigeria.”

The cars being considered for sale are the TTC’s old H-5 and H-6 models, which will be decommissioned as the TTC rolls out its new fleet of Rockets. Ross predicts the earliest they could be shipped to Nigeria is sometime in 2012.

Traffic snarls are already a major economic problem in the Nigerian capital, a booming city that will reach an estimated population of 25 million by 2015. A new above-ground rail system designed to carry 1.5 million people a day has already broken ground, and Lagos Governor Babtunde Fashola has said it “will be the most multi-dimensional and most impactful” of the government’s efforts to reduce traffic congestion.

Fashola visited Toronto earlier this year to inspect the TTC trains.

The Lagos deal would be the first of its kind for the TTC. Decommissioned cars are usually sold for scrap metal and can fetch up to $1,500 dollar each. While Ross declined to discuss specific figures,[size=13pt] he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices, putting the potential profits to the TTC in the millions of dollars. [/size]

It is not unusual for technology from western nations to end up in poorer countries. [size=13pt]Marketplaces in Africa and Asia are flooded with North American clothes, computers, and even cars, but the purchase of larger technology like trains is rarer.[/size] 

. . . . . .[size=13pt] Although half the cars are more than 30 years old, Ross is adamant they are perfectly safe and are only being decommissioned for capacity reasons. But he also admitted the TTC is not required to make sure the cars meet any safety standards before selling them.[/size]

“Once sold, it’s up to the new operator to ensure they are in good working order,” he said.[size=13pt] “They do need to be maintained much more frequently than the new trains, simply because of their age. At some point they will run out their useful life.”[/size]

The writer of this piece just went for the jugular!!! 

The bottom line is, Fashola purchased at a high cost trains that would have ended up as scrap metal in Canada.
For a product to be regarded as scrap, it no longer has service life.

At the end of the day, Lagosians will end up paying the so called "premium fare" because of the high cost of maintaining those scrap.

kobo perhaps you have been in yankee. the land of we must buy everything brand spanking new, for too long

for those of us in nigeria that do not work in the fg, we have to make prudent fiscal compromises in some of our choices

it would be wonderful if there were unlimited fiscal resources, or a manufacturing base that would ensure that the trains could be built in nigeria, thereby creating business , but that is not the case

in any event a quick perusal of the op's previous posts makes it clear that it is nothing more than a gej troll.

nuff said

I am disappointed, but then prudence is not a crime, the savings made at purchasing those junk can be ploughed into other sectors of the economy.

in companies across nigeria assets are auctioned to staff when their net book value is zero.  i guess four year old cars in perfect working condition can also count as scrap.

if my memory serves me right, fshola made no secret of the fact that lagos would be buying used trains for this project

oyb:

kobo perhaps you have been in yankee. the land of we must buy everything brand spanking new, for too long
for those of us in nigeria that do not work in the fg, we have to make prudent fiscal compromises in some of our choices
it would be wonderful if there were unlimited fiscal resources, or a manufacturing base that would ensure that the trains could be built in nigeria, thereby creating business , but that is not the case
in any event a quick perusal of the op's previous posts makes it clear that it is nothing more than a gej troll.
nuff said

CORRECTION: In Yankee, we don't buy everything brand spanking new. NO, we actually research costs,future costs, returns, and benefits, before we go purchasing. When you go buying something, you have to consider it's real worth, and the life left in that thing. Have you ever heard of yard sales? Or Consignment stores? Goodwill? Salvation Army? Craigslist? We have tons of stores out here to resell good old items. Again, Yankee does not always buy new.

If I went car shopping, I would have to have a real good reason for wanting to purchase a 30 year old car, especially one already condemned to the scrap yards. Maybe I collect old cars, and probably I enjoy rebuilding old cars and maybe selling them for a profit(there is a market for such). However, it would be unwise of me to consider a 30 year old car reliable transport considering maintenance cost and the fact that many of the parts for the 30-year old machine are probably no longer available. I actually have that particular issue with one of my old bikes. It is a 1989 model and so the original parts are no longer being produced so I go looking in scrap yards and old bike stores when I need to replace a pivotal part on the bike. But I love my bike so that headache is worth it for me. 

Even the state does not purchase all things new. The latest batch of police cars that were acquired where not purchased new. No, they were refurbished from old patrol cars. So, yes, correct yourself. Yankee does not buy new when it should not.

Now, back to this, prudent fiscal compromises? Did you read the article at all? For scrap those things could have gone for $1500 each.  But instead we paid way more than scrap cost for them, and this is not including cost of shipping them back to Nigeria, refurbishing them etc. And then there is the additional maintainance costs we will have to pay as these will need to be maintained more than newer versions would have. Are you sure this all ties into your "PRUDENT FISCAL COMPROMISES" concept?

There is NO SUCH THING as UNLIMITED fiscal resources. Not even Saudi Arabia has that, so that is beside the point. And no, I don't believe every country has to actually have these materials/products produced there right in their backyard in other to make more meaningful use of the limited resources available to 'em.  

I really don't give a a darn whether you think this is gej on your arse or not. This post is about the purchase made, let's stick to dissecting that rather than side-tracking with you and your 'friends' coming in again to chase each others d***s for pages again throwing the thread off course again.

We are buying, both at the national and state levels, equipment that are over 30 years of age, and we expect them to withstand the wear and tear of 21st century. I don't know about you but I am having a hard time understanding why we need to CONTINUE WITH THE OLD WAYS(which have failed us).

One man's scrap is another man's treasure?

oyb:

in companies across nigeria assets are auctioned to staff when their net book value is zero.  i guess four year old cars in perfect working condition can also count as scrap.

if my memory serves me right, fshola made no secret of the fact that lagos would be buying used trains for this project

WOW . . . Do you read your own posts at all? Four-year-old cars in perfect working conditions can also count as scrap? Really?


Nothing wrong in buying used trains . . . we do that even here. However, like I said, you invest wisely, PRUDENTLY. Was this a wise, prudent investment on our part? That is the question. Do you have the answers? Please show us the information you have access to on this.

I dont think the fool does

unfortunately, we don't have any idea how much lasg is buying the cars

we only have "he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices" . not enough to go by.

Kobojunkie:

WOW . . . Do you read your own posts at all? Four-year-old cars in perfect working conditions can also count as scrap? Really?


Nothing wrong in buying used trains . . . we do that even here. However, like I said, you invest wisely, PRUDENTLY. Was this a wise, prudent investment on our part? That is the question. Do you have the answers? Please show us the information you have access to on this.

obviously i am being sarcastic. when an asset has a net book value of zero (after depreciation) , it is fiscally of no value to the organisation that owns it. however, it is of value to others which is why it can still be auctioned for a good sum

i know of indigenous up and coming oil companies that have bought 'scrap' rigs from western companies. the companies would probably have thrown them away as well. as long as it is atransparent process, not like the way some nigerians sell accidented or flood damaged cars as lightly used.

westerners can be as smug as they want to be . . they will buy brand spanking new, eve if it puts them in hock to their eyeballs

one would have though the financial crisis would have taught them some humility

I smell inflated contracts.

oyb:

unfortunately, we don't have any idea how much lasg is buying the cars

we only have "he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices" . not enough to go by.

Actually, the article tells you that TCC made a profit on the sale to Lagos, meaning the rail cars where sold at a profit.

oyb:

obviously i am being sarcastic. when an asset has a net book value of zero (after depreciation) , it is fiscally of no value to the organisation that owns it. however,  it is of value to others which is why it can still be auctioned for a good sum

Well, the thing is, we are trying to use the same object for exactly what it was being used for by those who are getting rid of it. I am not sure what you have there works considering, that there standards has this listed as scrap.

oyb:

i know of indigenous up and coming oil companies that have bought 'scrap' rigs from  western companies. the companies would probably have thrown them away as well. as long as it is  atransparent process, not like the way some nigerians sell accidented or flood damaged cars as lightly used.

"Scrap" rigs to be used in a country where anything goes? Really?

30-year-old scrap rigs? I will not put it past companies that are in the buisness of making profits first and thinking of the environment last though. I don't even know how to even touch that one since I have no information in front of me to show that any of those scrap-rigs have been successfully installed and gotten to work with no problems at all.

When you say transparent-process, what exactly are you referring to? That purchasing 30-year-old equipment is OK as long as we know they are 30-year-old, and would potentially cost more to maintain than newer versions? Please explain

first of all, as i suspected, this is a recycled thread

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-752024.0.html

secondly, it may not even be lasg buying the trains

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-668039.32.html

Sept. 27, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The first of hundreds of Toronto subway cars that will furnish a new surface rail line in Lagos, Nigeria, has left Canada for the last time, and is now en route to Africa's largest city.

A Nigerian company, Eko Rail, has agreed to purchase 255 of the Toronto Transit Commission's (TTC) best-equipped subway cars for use in a much-needed Lagos Blue Line mass transit system. The TTC is in the process of purchasing larger "Rocket" trains to increase passenger capacity on their lines.

As the electric-powered cars become surplus and are pulled offline in Toronto, they will be individually trucked to the United States for a rebuilding by a team of world-class rail engineers. The cars will also undergo track-width (or "gauge" conversion and interior refurbishment before being shipped to Lagos.

The trains have been inspected by the Governor of Lagos State, Babatunde Fashola, who endorsed the plan to purchase them following his official visit to Toronto in May 2011.

"The shipment of the first car is an important step in Eko Rail's efforts to support the Governor's transformation agenda for the city," said David Potter, Eko Rail's Chief Engineer. "Ultimately, the Blue Line, with this modernized fleet, will bring massive benefits to Lagos' economic development and improve Lagosians' quality of life."

Each of the TTC cars come equipped with air conditioning, automatic sliding doors, solid-state traction control, energy saving regenerative braking, and a wide range of modern safety features and amenities. Once equipped with a state-of-the-art, GPS-based train control system made by General Electric, Eko Rail's trains will provide faster, safer, cheaper and more reliable transportation for Lagosians.

Eko Rail is entering into an innovative public-private partnership with the government of Lagos State to equip, operate and maintain the Blue Line for 25 years. Negotiations are being finalized and a concession agreement is expected to be signed in the near future. Lagos State has already started to make significant progress with building the rail tracks and stations. Eko Rail is utilizing URS Scott Wilson, one of the world's leading railway infrastructure consultancies, to ensure that the infrastructure is built to global standards.

With financing led by Investec Plc, financiers of more than 25 rail projects around the globe, Eko Rail expects to invest about $400 million to equip the Lagos Blue Line, including construction of a dual-fuel electric power generating station, modern train control system, communications and power distribution, as well as depot and maintenance facilities. When the entire line is operational, Eko Rail expects to attract at least 300,000 passengers per day, with trains running every 5 minutes.

The Eko Rail consortium - led by Nigerian-based emerging markets investment firm Verod Capital - brings together a world-class team of manufacturers, technical advisors, metro operators and public private partnership experts from the UK, Canada and South Africa.

http://ekorail.net/

yawn . . .

I think it is too late to LIE about LASG not purchasing the carts because we all know that this happened earlier in the year. Yes, Fashola was out in Canada himself inspecting the carts, around election period. How you missed that, I do not know.

Now back to the topic . . . .

oyb:

unfortunately, we don't have any idea how much lasg is buying the cars

we only have "he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices" . not enough to go by.

Actually, the article tells you that TCC made a profit on the sale to Lagos, meaning the rail cars where sold at a profit.

oyb:

obviously i am being sarcastic. when an asset has a net book value of zero (after depreciation) , it is fiscally of no value to the organisation that owns it. however,  it is of value to others which is why it can still be auctioned for a good sum

Well, the thing is, we are trying to use the same object for exactly what it was being used for by those who are getting rid of it. I am not sure what you have there works considering, that there standards has this listed as scrap.

oyb:

i know of indigenous up and coming oil companies that have bought 'scrap' rigs from  western companies. the companies would probably have thrown them away as well. as long as it is  atransparent process, not like the way some nigerians sell accidented or flood damaged cars as lightly used.

"Scrap" rigs to be used in a country where anything goes? Really?

30-year-old scrap rigs? I will not put it past companies that are in the buisness of making profits first and thinking of the environment last though. I don't even know how to even touch that one since I have no information in front of me to show that any of those scrap-rigs have been successfully installed and gotten to work with no problems at all.

When you say transparent-process, what exactly are you referring to? That purchasing 30-year-old equipment is OK as long as we know they are 30-year-old, and would potentially cost more to maintain than newer versions? Please explain

Kobojunkie:

Actually, the article tells you that TCC made a profit on the sale to Lagos, meaning the rail cars where sold at a profit.
Well, the thing is, we are trying to use the same object for exactly what it was being used for by those who are getting rid of it. I am not sure what you have there works considering, that there standards has this listed as scrap. "Scrap" rigs to be used in a country where anything goes? Really?

30-year-old scrap rigs? I will not put it past companies that are in the buisness of making profits first and thinking of the environment last though. I don't even know how to even touch that one since I have no information in front of me to show that any of those scrap-rigs have been successfully installed and gotten to work with no problems at all.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107950.0.html

my company sold this to me at a profit, all things considering it certainly would not have made fiscla sense for them to try to fix a a six year old pickup - but i stlll got some use out of it.

it would have been nice if at the time, i had more money, but i didn't , so i had to make do with my employer's 'scrap'  

^^Kobojunkie, quite active on politics but not on coding. Found your profile on stackoverflow. Lotsa dudes need your help on the programming forum tho.

oyb:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107950.0.html

my company sold this to me at a profit, all things considering - but i stlll got some use out of it.

it would have been nice if at the time, i had more money, but i didn't , so i had to make do with my employer's 'scrap'  

Interesting that you now admit you only got SOME USE, not a lot of use from it.   Again, we are talking here of a state making PRUDENT investments. SOME USE for a state will be considered by many as a waste of resources.

Also I saw your rant there on westerners buying new. I am going to chuck that all up to ignorance on your part seeing that that is not even true. I do find it curious that you failed to mention that Lagos itself does not go all out when purchasing vehicles for it's staff. I can't remember ever reading of the state purchasing used cars at all. Interesting, don't you think? And this is the country you said always buys used, huh?

Fashola appears to be far worse than Jonathan.

Kobojunkie:

Interesting that you now admit you only got SOME USE, not a lot of use from it.   Again, we are talking here of a state making PRUDENT investments. SOME USE for a state will be considered by many as a waste of resources.

yeah some use cause the next year i got an official car. end of.

Also I saw your rant there on westerners buying new. I am going to chuck that all up to ignorance on your part seeing that that is not even true. I do find it curious that you failed to mention that Lagos itself does not go all out when purchasing vehicles for it's staff. I can't remember ever reading of the state purchasing used cars at all. Interesting, don't you think? And this is the country you said always buys used, huh?

its really simple and i've said this somewhere  before

everybody's tokunbo starts from somewhere, and it depends on your resources

some people buy used underwear
some buy used clothes
some buy used car
some buy used house
some buy used air planes
some buy used ships
some buy used rigs
and so on and so forth.

the west's economy is heavily dependent on consumers buying new.end of.

oddly enough older industrial products are more durable than newer ones for the same reason - planned obsolesce was not part of their design consideration back then.

You go fear 'commercial jalopy train' naa!

oyb:

yeah some use cause the next year i got an official car. end of.


its really simple and i've said this somewhere  before

everybody's tokunbo starts from somewhere, and it depends on your resources

some people buy used underwear
some buy used clothes
some buy used car
some buy used house
some buy used air planes
some buy used ships
some buy used rigs
and so on and so forth.

I am sorry but it does not work that way, especially when you are thinking long term. Then the real worth of the used item and the amount of use you can get from it becomes essential in the decision making process.

If you are buying used cloths just to cover your unclothedness, you can get away with anything, but if you buying used cloths that you intend to use for a long time, at least ensure you get all your money out of it before the piece disintegrates on your body, then you consider the amount of use it has already gotten, the amount of use you can truly get out of it, maintenance cost, and also the cost.

Now think on this and consider how states ought to spend the limited resources available to em.

@ Topic, I think LASG did a great disservice to Lagosians with the purchase of the "scrap assets"; I always thought it was fairly used, not knowing it's fully deprecated scrapped metal ready to melted back into the furnace

oyb:


obviously i am being sarcastic. when an asset has a net book value of zero (after depreciation) , it is fiscally of no value to the organisation that owns it. however,  it is of value to others which is why it can still be auctioned for a good sum

i know of indigenous up and coming oil companies that have bought 'scrap' rigs from  western companies. the companies would probably have thrown them away as well. as long as it is  atransparent process, not like the way some nigerians sell accidented or flood damaged cars as lightly used.

I respectfully disagree with your analysis, depreciation is nothing but COST (Indirect Variable Costing), so therefore for you to so it's fiscally of "no value" after depreciation, to me is vague. There could be a "salvage value", we don't know, though depreciation could and will finish throughout the life time of that asset, but it's value remains. We can see examples are properties (FA) and its like.

My point is just because there is no depreciable cost doesn't mean the assets doesn't exist on their books nor has any value to it. So with the example of an oil rig you mentioned, you call it scrap oil rig, TO YOU, but if the western companies has $0 cost depreciation with or without any salvage value, yet the asset is still deplorable to sea, and you have an opportunity to release or sell of the assets in most case way more than the salvage value, wouldn't you do the same?

manny4life:

I respectfully disagree with your analysis, depreciation is nothing but COST (Indirect Variable Costing), so therefore for you to so it's fiscally of "no value" after depreciation, to me is vague. There could be a "salvage value", we don't know, though depreciation could and will finish throughout the life time of that asset, but it's value remains. We can see examples are properties (FA) and its like.

My point is just because there is no depreciable cost doesn't mean the assets doesn't exist on their books nor has any value to it. So with the example of an oil rig you mentioned, you call it scrap oil rig, TO YOU, but if the western companies has $0 cost depreciation with or without any salvage value, yet the asset is still deplorable to sea, and you have an opportunity to release or sell of the assets in most case way more than the salvage value, wouldn't you do the same?

you are missing my point. let me put it like this

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107950.0.html

this was a grounded vehicle that my employer auctioned. the car had been disused for at least six months. they did not consider repairs worth it considering the age of the car. if they had wanted to, they could have given it away. IT WAS OF ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE TO THE COMPANY. however, they chose to auction it and still made some money off it, and i still got some use out of it. it's still working, five years later.

In the spirit of recycling @Oyb. I do hope that Lagos state will give the used cars up when they are done. I know very well that it is possible to put some of those together to create housing for the poor. Now that I know they were worth $1500 each at time of purchase. I will probably not advice anything to pay more than $500 - 800 bucks per car, when Lagos is done with them( probably 2 years after deployment).  

Kobojunkie:

I am sorry but it does not work that way, especially when you are thinking long term. Then the real worth of the used item and the amount of use you can get from it becomes essential in the decision making process.

If you are buying used cloths just to cover your unclothedness, you can get away with anything, but if you buying used cloths that you intend to use for a long time, at least ensure you get all your money out of it before the piece disintegrates on your body, then you consider the amount of use it has already gotten, the amount of use you can truly get out of it, maintenance cost, and also the cost.

Now think on this and consider how states ought to spend the limited resources available to em.

did you only see clothes in my post. did cars, ships , planes and oil rigs somehow escape your gimlet eye?