₦airaland Forum

chic2pimp:
It's not only skill, it's about talent. As one wise man once said, Hardwork beats talent when Talent refuses to work hard. Talent dey,Skill dey, hardwork sef dey. Arise Sir Daniel Sturridge

Btw the Rooney you are Lambasting is getting praised by all the BBC pundits

How won't they praise Rooney?

No be this same England where we dey?

FBS:
Actually he gat skills. scoring goals.

Its Vardy party all day any day.

Hollywood must be rewriting the scripts as we talk now.

Vardy Party all day sir. Chat Chit Get BangBang like Tupac.

chic2pimp:
Nihillist.... See my guy

Chat chit get sturridged

Vardy more or less created that too

chic2pimp:
Nah man I disagree. Vardy has been the most efficient this season but Sturridge is still the guy. It's not Daniel fault he has more to his game than Vardy has.

Loool

Vardy has scored one and was involved in the other.

Forget more to his game...Jamie brings an attitude to England that no other team has.

It's not always about Skill. Drogba didn't become a legend because of skills.

4 Strikers on the pitch!

Who's gonna throw the passes?

I need a badass Wales Counter please...This Woy is a lunatic

chic2pimp:
Daniel is still England's most naturally gifted striker

Vardy to me is their most efficient. Even if he had one leg and one eye, he will still score.

The game is not about flicks and tricks...the game is about scoring goals, and vardy is a natural goal getter. Literally.

Chat Chit, Get Vardied

Rooney dey dull this game though.

Poor passing, terrible movement.

As the attacking member of the Pivot, he should be looking to drive at the defence and look to play a vertical game...Na so so back pass and long pointless passes he dey spray.

He's also too far forward to be effective. He needs to come deep to collect the ball first. Eric Dier is on his own there.

The disadvantage of English parapo - Squeezing in an old striker to play in midfield, while a title winning midfielder sits at home.

See the difference between Kane and Vardy?

Champagne is not the same as Schnapps

Mehn Payet me what you owe me!!!!

i need this griezman guy in my life abeg.

dem don sub the mumu giroud sef.

How many pullout is this Giroud guy going to squander?

They've put the ball on his head like a postage stamp on multiple occasions and he just dey dull.

Pogba is a victim of the hype machine. This guy is only 22(23?) yet he is being feted as the saviour of the french game. The boy feels under pressure to deliver something spectacular all the time, and it's showing in the way he keeps trying to do everything and ove-complicates the game.

Heavy is the head that wears the 80 million pound price tag. Deschamps needs to help him by instructing him to play simple passes as much as possible, and remind him that there are 22 other players in the squad to share the pressure with him.

GBR1 let's do this another time before we bore people.

SailorXY:
what I can see you driving @ is that dark players can be creative but their athletism is more noticed. If you ask me I don't see how this should be a disadvantage to the race.
As a striker you need as much imagination to latch into good positions for the midfielder behind else they become just as useless.

Pace & good balance is just as useful cuz any team with a significant lower average speed than its opponents is already in trouble.
Reference when MUFC had Tevez Rooney Ronaldo JS Park or when Chelshit had Robben & Duff in flying mode.
Football is not a static sport.

All positions on the pitch in modern footie is highly technical, even the GK.
These days a goalkeeper is expected to do much more than just diving. His positioning, judging ball flight accurately & even ability to find his man under pressure. VdS, Buffon, Cech, Schmeichel, Kahn are GKs that did more than just dive.

David Alaba for example is very creative from the rear, just like Alvez or Evra. Their skill set is not that common in full backs, added to their pace they easily become nightmares offensively & defensively.

There's nothing Fabregas & Silva has done that Toure & Pogba are incapable of.

Athleticism is not a disadvantage at all!

My point has always been that Blacks are mainly strong and fast. That's ouright selling point.

Technical ability is not really our selling point.

The Europeans are great technicians but not necessarily great athletes.

Please if na play stop am though. Please don't compare Pogba and Toure to Silva and Fabregas. The first two cannot do what the other two can with the ball.

GBR1:
How did this argument dissolve in 10s? tell me, did we start with this?
Oh you knew this, now tell me why you mentioned Depay earlier as a black player when he's so light but yet deny that Ronaldinho, Ronaldo etc are black players? Or you'd say Pele is mixed and isn't black because he was a South American? When it favors your argument a player is black, but a similar player is not black when he's an exception to your argument. Well done.

You are appearing confused now.

I already clearly separated South Americans and Europeans as having technical talent that is not indigenous to black people.

I've given you an example of a prominent dark skinned Brazilian player that doesn't identify as 'Black' so I'm not sure why you are determined to drag them and claim them as Black.

In football, Brazilian players are seen as Brazilian so please stop going back there.

I have already said that I will accept mixed race players with at least one black parent.

Doesn't the fact that you have to keep reaching out to people that don't look like you tell you something?

In America, Arabs have been classed as white since 1977....so if you and Fekir, Zidane and Benzema go to the white house today, you guys are not in the same category.

Give me artists that look like you as were originally referred to by Dopejemi

. Instead you've gone all over the globe to claim people who would be surprised to hear that they are black.

GBR1:
What is pure black player again? Must they be extremely dark like Mane or Pele? How do you know Pele wasn't mixed either? He was a Brazilian and a lot of them are mixed
Soon you'll claim he's not black. When you mentioned Depay earlier for your intents, i didn't take you up on it; Is Depay a pure black player?

Stop being mischievous!

Oga look in the mirror.

That is what black looks like.

How many players that look like you play in creative positions in Europe?

Either as a 10 a la Silva or a deep lying Playmaker like Fabregas.

I will admit mixed race playears for sake of discussion, but Arabs?

Come off it man.

Arabs are not black.

Brazilians are completely mixed and have already been classed as south American, so let's leave them out tesco conversation. Neymar is on record as stating that he is not black sef...

The main guys are Blacks, either born in Africa or in diaspora that have at least one pure black parent.

Please submit your answer.

GBR1:
I know for particular that in the 50s, 10s represented a different position for players on the pitch.
Don't mind Nihilist. It's obvious he's being very mischievous thinking that 10s are the definition of creativity/intelligence in a player. Then i wonder how players like Redondo or Beckenbauer became regarded as very creative or intelligent even when they weren't 10s.

I mentioned Pirlo, Modric, etc.

Truth is you won't find a pure black player there...and if you remember the origin of the argument, we were talking about 'ugly black players' to quote dopejemi.

GBR1:
Kevin prince Boateng, Nabir Fekir, Mane, Andre Ayew or even Eto, Toure are better 10s than any of the waste men you mentioned. I have given yoi enough names. But why did you have to narrow it down to number 10? I'm gonna end the use of this poor analysis you are employing ridiculous logic to manipulate, just watch.

See above.
I gave you Tim howard, now you're denying he's black when he's know as that in his own country. He's a fecking black american. I won't even debate this any further.
I don't remember Pogba being deployed as a defensive midfielder. At worse he's a B2B in a pivot. He's actually an attacking midfielder and a very creative one at that but you're only changing the narrative to help pass a point that won't even help you. You are being untruthful here. I just went through your initial posts and i saw how much you have changed the base of the argument. You first stated that blacks were less technically gifted than their white counterpart and that's why they often ended up as defenders or in defensive positions. Then i gave you the list of some of the best attacking talents ever seen who were black and you narrowed your argument to creative midfielders when i have already given you someone like Gullit who was quite extraordinary. Then things got too difficult for you to handle again, so you starting asking for those kind of players in the last 10 years.
I'm sure if we go on, you'll start asking for two footed non athletic very creative black midfielders who have played for top footballing clubs/nations in the last 7 days.

This argument was never gonna work for you and now you have put yourself in a terrible position.

More waste men to further your point. What about China or India with more population than the entire Africa? Please name their creative midfielders. Soon you'll say the Indians and Chinese(over 2 billion people combined) are not intelligent enough and Africa has produced far more than them.

How many world class players have Armenia produced FFS?
Yaya Toure will retire having a better career playing for top clubs than any of those waste men you mentioned. At least those black players like Viera, Thuram were world class playing at the absolute top level in their positions something none of those waste men you mentioned were capable of.

Nihilist this debate is stale already and i don't see myself going on with it. You haven't brought up anything new that i did not destroy with my first shot at it and if this argument wasn't so ridiculous to begin with, you'll be doing better than this and you know that. Just let it go and move on.

Kevin Prince is another strong player whose game is based on pace and power not creativity as I'm sure you know. Nabil Fekir is not black. Andrew Ayew is not a 10 or a creative type. Mane is a Winger.

This the exact same thing I'm talking about. You can't actually give me a Black guy like you and me that plays that position as a creative type.

Pogba is a B2B but isnt that the point? Nobody is denying his skill, but Pogba's game really is about driving runs, pace and power.

I deliberately did not mention Tim Howard because I hoped you would ignore the low hanging fruit.

My position on this has been very simple. Black players are rarely seen in positions on the pitch that heavily require technical skill. That's why there are no black analogues for the Silvas Cazorlas and Fabregas's of this world.

Instead, you like many others, have been reaching for Arabs and mixed race players to claim as Black...from Zidane to Nabil Fekir to Benzema.

My son is mixed race...and Fekir is lighter than him.

Black indeed.

chic2pimp:
Tbh I can see both you and GBR1's points.

Don't want to get involved in the argument but the Euro Championship and Copa America are definitely 1million times more enjoyable to watch than the ACON

I've just accepted the black football identity for what it is. GBR1's position is theoretical...There could be black creative types in Africa who didn't get through chance to develop. There could be black creative types who could yet develop in Europe.

But all I can see is the reality of the last few years....tell me that you won't run if you saw Kante, Pogba and Matuidi looking for you at midnight.

chic2pimp:


Gustavo take ya time o. No make Sango faya u tonight o

Alie?

I nor know why GBR dey wetin even Stevie Wonder fit see.

Even a dead country like Iceland can point to Siggurdson as Thier 10, and the whole black race can't point to just 1 pure black 10?

GBR1:
It's is very relevant. Those are example of predominantly white nations and the white people there don't agree with your theory. If the biggest white nation (US) can produce these good white footballers, then why should the likes of Nigeria or Ghana even bother?If Autrailia can't why should African countries like Malawi, Swaziland, Lesotho, Kenya produce great footballers? Are those ones big footballing nations too?
This is basically impossible and it's impratical to focus on something that doesn't exist. Even the most advanced African nations like S/africa or Egypt have very poor leagues, low quality footballing facilities etc. Then we have Nigeria.

I have addressed this already. I explained very well.

See the kind of rubbish waste men you had to come up with to defend Australia. I could bet you googled at least a name there. I was expecting a list of great players with superb technique and natural ability not those nonentities who are actually some of the best players in Australia abi White people no dey Australia?
Weak point again. I could use this to defend almost every African country simply by saying they are rubbish at football e.g Kenya, Ethiopia who do well at long distance races than football.
Another list of waste men. Can you compare these white players to their contemporaries in Europe?
Henry alone is better than all those players put together. By the time Tim howard retires, he would have had a better career than those guys.

Nihilist take time o.

Are Martial, Conman and Pogba white to you?

LOL why would I have to Google those names when I've actually seen 1 or two of them play live?

Those guys are relative wastemen no doubt, but they're still better than the next Black number 10...no wait...there aren't any.

That's why I asked you for black equals to those.

Can you give me a Black Brad Friedel? Or a Black Clint Dempsey in the last 10 years? Tim Howard is also American though mixed race. Why isn't there a black analogue of these guys?

Like I've said over and over, Black players are usually defenders, Big bruising midfielders(Pogba) or wingers (Coman and Martial)

Don't you find other strange that we can point to number 10s from almost race except the negro race?

Japan has produced so many....from Nakamura to Kagawa.

Spain, Germany, France, Holland etc all have them Boku.

Even Mkhtaryan from only God knows where follow join.

Yet the only black players we see are big, black, brawny and/or fast playing in every other position except number 10 and creative midfield.

Every two years AFCON convenes looking like an armed robbers convention, full of brutes in tight jerseys.

The greatest black midfielder of the last 10 years is Yaya Toure and that says it all really.

Dadehmola:
Maybe he don return to him police work....

I saw one policeman backflipping at Obalende Last week.....probably after collecting #50 Roger.

Gone are the days ti Olopa ma'n gba fiber

GBR1:
Nihilist you have to try and address almost every part or point in my previous post, and not just chose which part you feel you can address. The problem is that my whole piece too strong for you to debate against because you were wrong in the first place and soon you'll run out of things to say.
Just look at this part of my post and tell me how you'll counter it.

I didn't need to address the rest of your post because it's not particularly relevant to the discussion.

America and Australia are irrelevant to the discussion because both are not big football nations.

Let us focus on the big football nations, with relatively large populations of black people, with ample reprrsention of blacks in domestic competition and at national level, and equal access to top class training.

Australia is big on Rugby union not football. I don't know if you're conversant with the sport(I am) and I will show EXACTLY the same thing happening there...with mainly white playmakers in the middle and blacks mainly on the flanks. Yet you have the likes of Harry Kewell and Tim Cahill who've come out of there. Heck Mile Jedinak is probably better now than any African central midfielder in thr last 5 years.

America is rubbish at football.
Even with that America has produced Clint Dempsey Brad Friedel Kasey Keller. Can you name one black number 10 or goal keeper over the last 10 years who has played at their level?


So I have to ask you again...where is all the black talent hiding?

GBR1:
You shouldn't have said this. Remove Davids and Seedorf from that your list abeg. Their technique was excellent enough and shouldn't even be in question simply because they spent most of their time in defensive positions. If they had played more forward, i doubt their physicality would have been in much review. There are good number of black Dutch players who possessed extremely good technique comparable to those possessed by their white peers.

Did you watch Ruud Gullit play? Was his technique average?
Or have you forgotten about other Dutch players like Kluivert or Rijkaard? Please tell me they were white.
Those are some of the greatest European and dutch players of all time and they were black, simple. What is the percentage of Black folks in the Netherlands' population for them to have contributed so much?

.

Like I said, these guys are exceptions not the norm. We cannot remove Davids and Seedorf from the list because that is precisely the point I'm making - Black People are only found on the pitch in defensive positions or as wingers and fullbacks. Statistically speaking, they are very rarely found in the creative role of any team except mostly African team.

Have you checked the recent Dutch team? Around 50% of the team is Black....check their positions and you will see the pattern you are trying so hard to deny.

Despite the fact that Blacks in the netherlands are a minority...they are Over-represented in the football team...but not in the creative roles.

In the beginning of the 80s, South America had 6 world cup wins (through 3 countries; Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina) while Europe had 5 (through Italy, Germany and England). Get your facts right!
Moreover my assertion even goes beyond just world cup wins. Brazil had a very good league then and the best players in the world then(Brazilians) plied their trade there unlike now the league is just like a feeder for for the top European teams to pluck talent from. White European players though good were quite inferior to black Brazilian players like Garrincha, Pele and co in those days. The gap soon started to narrow and currently the gap has never been so narrow. So my earlier point still holds.

Your original assertion was that South America were the initial kings of football before Europe caught up. That statement is false because as at the start of the 80s, it was 6-6. You need to get your facts right lad. . That doesnt suit the narative about Europe catching up, when European countries were already world powers from the 30s.

Is Sane white?
The population of black folks relative to the overall figure is very low in Germany. Wasn't it even in the beginning of this century that a black player first played in the German national team? Obviously you didn't know this because if you did you'd have realized that your proposition is a joke.

Almost was what I said...So why is it that the only Black players to make the German team are Defenders and Wingers?

Was Eusebio white? He's the greatest Portuguese player ever( though would be very debatable when Ronaldo retires).

I don't even think there are enough black folks in most European countries to affect adequately the generation of players in the national team. With time, you'll see better black players in attack and in almost every position. Black players are over represented in almost every European football team. Can you compare the percentage of black players in those European national teams to the actual percentage of Black people in those countries? You simply can't. Now many of those few black players in those countries might have had to make do with defensive positions because they were in unfair competition with their white counterparts and they would have better chances of becoming a successful footballer if they chose to play in defensive positions that would favor their natural athleticism which is an advantage for them compared to white folks hence the relatively high number of blacks in defensive positions. Some of those black folks could have had very different careers if they weren't black or conversely no career at all because some of those black players might actually not be talented enough to play football but they still end up as professional footballers in these European countries because they still possess a physicality advantage over the white guys.
This whole explanation is complicated but it's very correct and i believe you should be able to understand.

This is exactly the point. The question is WHY? WHY haven't we seen those talented black players? Blacks have been playing in European competion since the 60s so theres been more than ample time for these skillful talents to emerge.

There are over 4 million black and mixed race people living in England today....are you saying this pool is not large enough to generate a crop of exceptional technical talent?

Why isn't there a black version of Wilshere or a Black Rooney? Where is the Black Lampard or Black Gerrard?

Ozil is Turkish which is far enough from being white. Turkey isn't a great footballing nation either.

For the purpose of this discussion Ozil is white. Don't distract from the debate by diving into phenotype. Turkey isn't a great football nation yet they have produced phenomenal talent like Ozil, Arda Turan, Emre Belezoglu, Emre Can, Nuri Sahin.

Where is the black equivalent of this?

That's what i'm asking you now. Can you tell us where all the great black playmakers are hiding?

elampiro:
May be we are being marginalized. Mikel was the most creative player of his age, if he were white, they would have created an attacking space for him. But on getting to Chelsea he was converted to a DM to learn to play like Makalele and Essien.

If he were Spanish or German or English, legends would have brought out their daggers against a brainless coach killing 'the most latent talent in the history of football.

Also, big clubs trust more European goalkeepers. Manchester United would rather play Ben Foster rather than buy Enyeama as a back to. All the Thomas Ukonos, Rufai, Shoronmu never played for big clubs. Roger Miller and Henry Nwosu were some of the most creative players, which club did they play for?

In a nutshell, African/black players are mostly needed to cover for the less competitive or less glamorous positions in football.

Or maybe we're not just good enough in those positions

a40 and sleekdot.

Una two dey craze o

elampiro:
I was talking about leagues not national teams. Europeans would always promote their strikers to the top at early age. There was a time Fashanu was considered good enough to be on the bench for England but they dropped him.

Some of the best strikers have been blacks, Henry, Eto and Drogba.

Nobody is arguing that.

I never said that Black people don't have technique.

My point was simple....Even in countries where there is a reasonably close distribution of Blacks and Whites, Black players tend play specific roles on the pitch. Defenders, wingers, Enforcers and Big Strikers.

That's why I listed all those countries where they have several black players, and all are more or less the same thing.

That's why I asked where the Black Pirlo, Ozil, Xavi or Inietsa is. Where is the black Carrick? or the Black Fabregas? Black Silva? Black Cazorla? Black KDB? You cannot see these players cos they dont exist.

How about Goalkeepers? How many Black Goalkeepers are there regularly starting in the EPL?


Read this article and see what I'm saying
https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/do-football-managers-pigeonhole-black-players

An extract:

Looking at last weekend's Premier League starting line-ups (January 23/24), he seems to be right. Choosing one tempo-controller from each team left me with 17 white European players (see list and charts below), the ethnically Turkish Mesut Ozil, and just two black players: Alex Song and Yaya Toure (both of whom are in the starting line-up as much for their physicality and tackling as for their ability to control the game). As black players made up 35% of starters, you would expect that they would represent more than just 10% of its tempo-controlling players.

Diademk07:
Their hair.
Tell me how the Algeria team that played against German at the worldcup look Arab?

I can see now why you have such a bad reputation on this thread.

So bald Zidane looks black to you not because of his face, nose, lips, or skin colour....but because of his hair?

Drogba must be white then.

I should have just waited for GBR to show up. At least I would have had an intelligent rebuttal.

ChristineC:
This is coward's position my good man. I can give you the highlights.
that was Bailly's breakout season. Underline that.

1 Eric featured in all games for Ivory Coast and was subbed out once (ever present : check)

I didn't argue that Bailly didn't feature for constantly for Ivory Coast. Instead I pointed out that he was a Calamity for them, and highlighted schoolboy errors that he made in consecutive games at AFCON. It's a testament to CIV's paucity of options that Bailly continued to play for them after giving away set piece after set piece..including a Freekick inside the box and a Penalty

2 Eric had more playing time than all, save seven in Villareal last term (ever present : check)

Again I didn't question this, I only pointed out WHY he got the chance to feature so much(1st choice centreback was injured)

3 Eric featured for more minutes than all, save ten in the Europa league last term (ever present : check)

See above

4 Eric was the 8th best player for Villareal in the league and the 6th best in Europa; 5th best for players with over 2000 minutes (liability : I didn't thunk so)

8th best of the first 11, is the 3rd worst.

But your point here is also irrelevant...mainly because Mussachio was still rated far better than Bailly...despite playing fewer minutes.

If he was the 8th best player for Villareal....how is he imperious? That is the lie

Overemphasizing his presence in the CIV team that 'stumped[sic] to the African title' is the exaggeration... because he was the worst member of the defence


I explained all this very clearly.

But if you think that one the top scoring strikers in England is not good enough for Arsenal, but the 8th best(Can't stop laughing at this ) is good enough for manyoo and worth 30m, I'm not surprised that you are all over the place with this argument.

Aunty Christy, sorry for you.

SIRcumalot:
diademk07.
this is the kind of problem am pointing too if we go by skin tone instead of geography.

To me these guys are just dumbing down the debate. Brazilians are mixed with all sorts, white, black, ameri-indian, etc to the point where they cannot be considered black.

I remember when Neymar was asked if he had experienced racism, and he responded "No, cos I'm not black"

Diademk07:
Dunno, but they don't look like Arabs either.
I think the Moroccans looks more like Arabs than the Algerians, especially their hair.

How can you say they dont look like arabs.

[img]http://video.skysports.com/t1cXZ5eTrAljUDFkzxItnYVrgoDGxcjd/promo276203780[/img]

Like can you point out the negroid features here?

https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/cpsprodpb/18BA/production/_86503360_benzema_getty.jpg

You mean this guy above is a black man?