₦airaland Forum

scholes0:
Well, I might have measured some bushes, BUT I only followed your exact style which you are basing your facts on. Besides, you added too much green and brown in your Abuja measurements.Ibadan's green only looks more obvious than the green and brown of Abja because Abuja is savannah and Ibadan is tropical high forest and tall tree savanna type vegetation. If I increase the contrast and saturation of your Abuja measurements and increase the green composition of the RGB, you would see how much outside the city limits some of your measurements are.

Also, I don't consider Gwagwalada to be Abuja, although it is is a town in the FCT. I understand that you think otherwise, but no problem. Infact I was only adding Suleja from my initial measurements for the sake of argument. Suleja isn't Abuja either. Suleja is completely different from Abuja and does not have any vibe in common with Abuja. It felt like a completely separate and independent town the time I was there unlike Karu that had strong Abuja vibes. If the government was compiling a list of largest cities and towns in Nigeria, trust me when I tell you that Suleja will not be included in Abuja nor even 'Abuja urban area' for that matter.

Lol, yours does not look more accurate than mine. I have explained it to you earlier above ^^ how Geography works. What YOU on the other hand are doing is maximizing land area for different areas during measurement and then totalling them together to gain a land area advantage.

Yes my measurements of Ibadan was 702 km² for Ibadan at close marking, and 550km² for Abuja + adjoining towns at that same criteria. When I used the same method as you (distant marking) Ibadan remained significantly larger at over 1,000km². If you want me to measure the Abuja area again separately then add them together, I might do that at some later time.

Your friend's measurements of Abuja is wrong. I already called it "Wuru wuru to the answer" earlier. And once again, Gwagwalada is not Abuja. Everyone has been telling you this right from that original thread into this newer one. People even told you that his measurements were not consistent that he zoomed out to measure some cities and measured some others at closer resolution.

Gwagwalada is not Abuja and neither is Karu, Suleja, Madalla, Bwari, Kuje or anywhere. However, these places are part of Abuja Metro or Greater Abuja urban area, the same way Ibafo, Ifo, Ota and other towns in Ogun state, Badagry, Ikorodu e.t.c are part of Lagos metro or Greater Lagos urban area.
Abuja Municipal is the only place that is Abuja. The other suburbs and urban areas are under the Abuja metro.

If Lagos urban is being measured, Ikorodu, Badagry, Ota & Lekki are not usually added to it. However, does that stop these places from being part of Greater Lagos Metro? Of course not.

Take it or leave it. You may not see it that way, but world rankings and world standard see it that way, or do you think that when the world ranks Lagos as the largest urban area in Africa with over 20 million people, they are talking only about Lagos proper?

If Suleja is not part of Abuja metro area, how about Zuba & Madalla that merges Abuja Municipal to Suleja? Or is it possible to agree that Zuba is part of Abuja metro & Suleja is not? when Zuba, Madalla & Suleja are practically merged together as one urban area?

If Gwagwalada is not part of Abuja, what about Tungan Maje that you can stand in Zuba and throw a stone into it? If you then accept Tungan Maje because it is a stonethrow from Zuba, then u have to accept Anagada cos Anagada is also a stonethrow from Tungan Maje and Giri (which is on the road to the airport) is a stonethrow from Anagada and immediately after Giri is Gwako then see Gwagwalada. These 4 towns in between Zuba & Gwagwalada are a stone throw from each other.

Gwagwalada is not Abuja, but the University in Gwagwalada is called UNIVERSITY OF ABUJA and not University of Gwagwalada

APCNig:
This poster has Corona Virus, psychiatric disorders, mental imbalance and hallucinations. My mother is from Kwars, I go to Ilorin, Omu-Aran, Offa, Erin-Ire, Irepodun and Ifelodun at least once in a quarter. The poster should be in Isolation Centre because Corona has affected his brain. You won't even see a Church or a Christian in inner Ilorin as you have Churches in building after building in Lagos, that's how you have Mosques in house after house in Ilorin.

Remove Ilorin now and put Ifelodun, Omu Aran, Offa, Erin Ile and the entire Kwara south together first, can you open your mouth and say muslims are the majority in Kwara south?

Kwara south has 7 LGA among the 16 in Kwara state. Hence the indigenes of Kwara south make up like 40% of the state's population and they are Christian Majority.

Have you been to the 2 Ekiti speaking LGAs (Ekiti & Oke-oro LGAs)? These places are entirely Christian. You hardly find a mosque in their towns.

Igbolo, Igbomina & Ekiti people are the 3 Yoruba subethnic groups that make up Kwara south. Can you put them together and tell us that Muslims are more here?

Ekiti people are entirely Christian, while Igbomina & Ibolo are something around a 50-50 with muslims having the slight advantage in Ibolo and Christians in Igbomina. Igbomina also spreads into Kwara central in Asa LGA. So, don't mention Kwara south in your lies abeg.

As for Ilorin, everyone knows Ilorin indigenes are overwhelmingly muslim and yes you are correct that Ilorin inner city or old Ilorin where the indigenes dominate is overwhelmingly muslim, but is old Ilorin the only place that makes up present day Ilorin city? Ilorin city has grown beyond that slum city center.

Look below at the 1st pic from Google maps and see that whitish dense part to the North-Western part of the city, that is where Old Ilorin is, a congested slum where the indigenes dominate. It is only like 25% of the city's Landmass.
Apart from that area, every other part of Ilorin is either Christian dominated or is 50-50.

See the 2nd, 3rd & 4th pictures from the Eastern part of Ilorin. Can you see the number of churches in different neighbourhoods? Go and sleep pls.
Ilorin of today is not Ilorin of 30 years ago. The influx of christians from Kwara south, Kogi West & SW has neutralized the strong muslim component of the city! If at all muslims should be more in Ilorin, it is a 60-40. Otherwise it is now a 50-50 thing.

hammer0:
Let us take Biafra for example.

We have a nation of people with shared history and similar culture, faith, traditional and believe system.

We are running away because one group is bigger.

or because our group is not the biggest.

After you finish running, u will find that another group will emerge the biggest group.

So wat was achieved?

It is like Delta State where Urhobo is the biggest group.

What Efewestern is saying is very clear and understandable. Igbos & SS minorities put together in one country will be like 65% Igbo.

But if SS minorities are one country, no single ethnic group will be up to 35% of the country, not even if all Ijaw clans combine or all the Ibibio-Efik-Anang people combine. It will be a sort of balance.

But to be sincere, 2 major ethnic groups may end up forming a sort of coalition in order to dominate the rest. Just like what exists in Kenya today.
Just that it will not be as bad a 1 ethnic group dominating the country.

However I think Southern minorities are just too scared. What stops them from making negotiations with Igbos to arrange for a country of loosed Confederacy (something like the UK) where everyone controls his own republic within the country and has every right to pull out whenever they like? Do they prefer the status quo in Nigeria where their oil wealth is being monopolized by Hausa fulanis & Yorubas to an extent?
Southern minorities have an extreme case of 'Minority paranoia syndrome'.

senatordave1:
Nonsense.kaduna and kogi have slightly more Muslims than Christians.dont waste your time explsining anything

Prove it brother, prove it !

Many people foolishly judge based on politics. Politics that is highly dependent on many things.

Igala muslims had better political power over Igala Christians cos it started from old Benue state when a Tiv who is automatically a christian becomes the governor and for the sake of inclusiveness, an Igala muslim is given the deputy governor.
Igala muslims were never more than the Christians in numbers, it was done just for the sake of inclusiveness. This was exactly the same thing that happened with Nasarawa people in old Plateau state.
Hence, when Nasarawa & Kogi states were created, the muslims already had much political clout over the Christians because of the nature of politics in old Benue & old Plateau state.

The Muslim domination of Kogi & Nasarawa was caused by Benue & Plateau people. Just that we never knew things would turn out like this.
We politically empowered Igala muslims & Nasarawa Muslims in the old states for the sake of inclusiveness, not because they were the majority in those places.
In the 1999 PDP primaries of Nasarawa state, did Solomon Lar not support Abdullahi Adamu (who was his deputy governor in old Plateau state) over Solomon Ewuga?


In the case of Kaduna state, Christians only started having any political say when Katsina state left Kaduna state.
When Katsina was still part of Kaduna state, the state was like 75% Muslim and Katsina people with their numbers controlled the state and always gave Zaria people the deputy positions, leaving Southern Kaduna people to eat the crumbs from the masters table.
When Katsina was leaving, they handed over power to Zaria! The state was rearranged and structured to give Zaria people continued political advantage!
In spite of all this, a Christian emerged as the 1st elected chairman of Kaduna LGA. Can u tell me why it was possible?
Can you tell me why Sabo (the biggest Christian suburb of Kaduna) was taken away from old Kaduna LGA into Chikun LGA? Why was Saminaka taken to Kaduna north? Were they ever together with Zaria people in one senatorial district in the old Kaduna state?

People who know Kaduna state are explaining it for you and you are believing lies.

Imagine you saying Kogi state has more muslims, is it because you pass through Ebira land (Kogi central) on your way to Abuja? Then you conclude that muslims are more?

nku5:
They will never try Taroks, Angas, Eggon etc The berom messed up by selling so much of their land

It's not just about selling your lands.
It's more or less about abandoning your culture and ancestral religion.

Some of our tribes carry Christianity for head like gala and abandoned all the spiritual charms for protection, initiation, war e.t.c, you will not believe that it is almost impossible to find a shrine or traditionalist in Berom land.
But you see tribes like Taroks, Eggons, Jukuns? If they are in the church and their masquerades are passing by, the church will become empty all of a sudden. Their own Christianity is on their legs and they easily shake it off any time they want

Efewestern:
@Bolded, then I ask, what's stopping them from uniting if they can easily be united? You place too much emphasis on religion, it hasn't helped in uniting these people, while it's a factor of unity, it isn't all that is required for 200 unique groups to unite for a common cause.

These groups do not look at the bigger picture, they place turn much emphasis on their personal interests like You talked about the Tivs throwing support for GMB, hoping to get something in return. If for example you manage to bring them together, individual tribes can easily be bribed by the big two.

I may be wrong, just judging from my experience so far with middle beltans.

The division of states and geopolitical zones has been the biggest problem of unity for these tribes.
Our people do not even understand the geography of our terrain. We know how similar we are to each other but we have allowed the division of our states and zones enter so much into our minds.
Take for example, not until recently, Unijos was not giving admissions to people from Southern Kaduna, Taraba & Southern Bauchi for the sake that they are not part of the catchment areas of the North-central. Is that not the height of stupidity?

A Yoruba, Ebira or Nupe man from Kwara or Kogi who have absolutely nothing in common with a Plateau man will get admission in Unijos better than a Southern Kaduna or Southern Bauchi person who is physically, culturally and mentally indifferentiable from a Plateau person?
And you can imagine that this foolishness was supported by the Plateau men and women who were in charge of the University affairs all in the name that they are maintaining the stupid catchment areas standards of Federal universities.

A Hausa man who is in charge of giving admission in ABU Zaria will rather give a Sokoto indigene or even a Nigerien admission over a Southern Kaduna person from the same state, if both the Sokoto & Southern Kaduna person are qualified for admission.

These Hausa fulanis & muslims know themselves. States & geopolitical zones do not affect or determine who they are and how they function, but when it comes to us, we are just foolish and ignorant.

Most northern christians do not even know the extent of their power, numbers, political spread and how they can unite to be influential.

I have met Plateau people who told me that Plateau state is Jerusalem and we are completely surrounded by muslim dominated states. Can such a person unite anyone? Bauchi might be muslim dominated, but the tribes of Southern Bauchi who we share boundary with are not muslims. Southern Kaduna is not Muslim. Nasarawa & Taraba are not muslim majorities. So you can see the ignorance.

I have seen many Plateau people refer to core-northern christians from places like Yobe state as MALLAMS. They don't even know that the Christians from Southern Yobe are exactly like us with their own ethnic groups, but geography just made them find themselves in Yobe state.
Now tell me if this is the mentality of people who will unite themselves.

You can never understand the importance of religion because you are from a place where religion is not significant and does not count. As soon as you cross the boundary from Kogi or Benue into Nasarawa state, religion starts counting and it counts more than your ethnicity! Infact it becomes the number 1 factor in most cases to determine if u will get a job, a promotion, a contract, build your house in a certain location and almost everything else that pertains to your life.

Tivs, Igalas & Idomas are like Southerners in mentality, very complicated and egoistic. They are not even part of the 200 smaller Christian ethnic groups I am talking of unifying.

While as for Nupes, Baribas & Ebiras, they have decided to be an extension of Hausa fulanis because they are predominantly muslim.

These are the reasons why a united and strong Middlebelt identity has been a failure, because everybody wants something different from the identity. We don't have a similar mentality, mindset, agitation & orientation.

But you see the tribes of Plateau, Southern Kaduna, Nasarawa, FCT, Taraba, Adamawa, Gombe south, Bauchi south, Niger east, Kebbi south, Borno south e.t.c, (which number about 25 million people)? they have same mentality, same orientation, same cultures, same religion, same struggles and Hausa language background has unified them to an extent.
They are very easy to unite.

We have already started working on it and seen serious progress. It's just a matter of time.

Agboriotejoye:
Here we go now. Ikire and Iwo have been developing and existing for decades and suleja started yesterday ba? Do you know Abuja was once under suleja emirate? If you say development is people living in one place and working in another then, ikire, fiditi and Iwo fit the bill for Ibadan. You didn't add lalupon in ur map. This guy just added it.

How has suleja developed into diko? I really don't know how you're deciding these developments but diko is totally separate from suleja. It's always been as it is. What are you going to say next? Lambata is developing towards suleja? Or lambata is also part of Abuja metro? Guy give it a rest. Your premise is really getting muddled.

Let me give you an idea of what can be called development as I know it. Ajoda, Egbeda, Badeku etc where totally undeveloped areas in the 80s. The bola ige govt started the plan of developing that area and gave it the name ajoda new town. Of course today, all those places are counted as part of Ibadan now. That's what I expect. Not just picking places and deciding for yourself whether they're part of an urban area or not.

Suleja & Abuja are same settlements founded by brothers who fled from Zaria during Danfodio's jihad.

Yes, Suleja was a town of it's own before Abuja, but it was a small town. Development from Abuja was what made it a large urban area today and merged it with Zuba, Madalla & Diko.
And that is why Suleja urban is tied to Abuja economically, socially and otherwise.

Are Iwo & Ikire tied to Ibadan economically, socially and in terms of work? Hell no!
If I open a branch of my business in Iwo, can I put the address of my business as Ibadan?
If I stay in Iwo, can I claim I am in Ibadan? If I want to travel to Iwo from Lagos, will I enter Ibadan motor? No, I will enter Iwo motor direct.

But I can have a business in Lalupon and put Ibadan as the address. People in Lalupon claim they are staying in Ibadan. People traveling to Lalupon from Lagos go to Ibadan park and enter Ibadan direct.

Lalupon & Ibadan's case is the same with Suleja & Karu to Abuja.
You cannot be in Lagos or Jos or even Lafia (the capital of Nasarawa state) and tell them that you want to travel to Karu or Suleja, hell no! Abuja is where you say you are going to.

The point is that Abuja has swallowed up the identities of Suleja & Karu because Abuja made them what they are today. This can never be the case of Iwo & Ikire with Ibadan. Never.

Scholes0, please comman explain this for your brother cos he likes to argue over everything abeg.

Pls look at Diko & Suleja in this map below and tell me that you are not making a joke of yourself by saying that Diko has not merged with Suleja.

Takara:
Op your post is full of sentiments. Leave sentiment oets use facts

1. Sixteen out ofNinenetee Northern States have Muslim Governors this seems to I play that sixteen out of the Nineteen States are muslim majority states

2. Only three states ( Plateau, Benue, and Taraba )appears to have a Christian majority.

3.. most of the other states are so predominantly muslim that both Governors and Deputy Governors are muslims with the exception of two or three that have christian Deputy Governors (GOMBE and Kogi states)

3. Kaduna is clearly Muslim majority, of the three Senatorial Districts o ly one is christian majority with a significant muslim minority including the present deputy Governor.. The Christian's in Kaduna state are numerically comparable to the muslims in Edo State. Oth Re majority in one out of three Senatorial Districts .just that the Christian's in kaduna state are more vocal

4. Kogi is also Muslim majority the two largest ethnic groups igala and ebira are predominantly muslim.

5. Indigenous Northern Christians are probably laround 20% of the population ( I mean with three majority states out of sixteen)

1. It is very very wrong to judge the religious composition of a state based on politics. Muslims tend to play politics better because they take it more seriously and that is why in a place that is 50-50 or even 40% Muslims, they end up dominating the politics of that place.

2. Borno & Kebbi states have both governor & deputy as muslims, but Kebbi south & Borno south have more Christians. Zuru town is the biggest town in Southern Kebbi and it a Christian dominated town and LGA.
Do not judge religious percentage based on politics.....
If you want to get a better picture of the religion of a place, check all the tribes that are there and learn about their religion.

3. You are judging rubbish by dividing Kaduna into senatorial districts and claiming that one is Muslim majority or not.
In Kaduna south, no LGA is muslim majority, but in Kaduna north you have Lere LGA and it is slightly Christian majority.
In Kaduna central, Kajuru & Chikun are Christian majority while Kaduna south LGA is a 50/50.

You are talking about significant Muslim minority in Southern Kaduna, what about northern Kaduna? Are there no Christians there?
Do you know how many Gbagyi & Kamuku Christian villages are in Birnin Gwari LGA? Do you know that all the villages surrounding Pambeguwa town in Kubau LGA are Kurama Christian communities?
Is Jaji town (a Gbagyi Christian town not in Igabi LGA)?

What about all the dozens of Hausa Christian villages in Ikara, Soba, Maikarfi & Giwa LGA? Let us not even talk about the population of Christians in Zaria & Sabongari LGA, abeg go and sleep.

Do u even know Edo state? Can u mention 1 LGA of Edo state that is muslim majority apart from Etsako west LGA? Even Etsako west is now like a 50-50 cos so many of them are leaving Islam like nonsense. My brothers wife is from South Ibie in Etsako west. I schooled so many years in Edo state and I know it more than you.
You are comparing Kaduna state where more than 10 LGAs are Christian majority with Edo state where even Auchi that used to be muslim majority is now becoming 50?
Your ignorance knows no bounds.

You cannot even compare Edo muslims to the population of Christians in Yobe!


4. Ebira is majority muslim (like 65%), but Igala can never in hell be muslim majority, do you know the way Igalas are leaving Islam? They are just like Yoruba muslims. It is only in Igala land & Auchi that u see people answering names like Blessing Muhammad & Joseph Mustapha

Southern Igala land is 90% Christian. Have you been to LGAs like Ibaji & Olamaboro? In many of the villages in both LGAs you will hardly find a mosque. Ankpa is the only LGA in Igala land where muslims are a clear majority.
Idah & Dekina are like a 50-50 while Ofu, Igalamela & Omala are like 75% Christian.
You don't know Igalas abeg. Igalas used to be like a 50-50 in the past, but due to the high conversion rates to Christianity, Igalas are now clearly christian majority (like 60-65%).

Okun people who dominate Kogi West are overwhelmingly Christian (80%).

Among the minority tribes in Kogi state, Bassa, Ogori-Magongo & Gbagyi are like 90% christian, while Egbura Koto & Mozum are 90% muslim and Kakanda people are like 50-50.

It is very impossible for muslims to be more in Kogi state.

Efewestern:
Chief, make your contributions without going the tribal way. humans, regardless of where they come from will always want to dominate weaker or smaller groups, it's one attribute we can never let go.

We aren't even talking about unity, but being treated fairly by a major group, the chances of being dominated is 90%, which can never happen in a union with similar smaller groups.

This is common with humans all over the world. I won't respond if you continue playing the tribal card.



It's impossible uniting smaller groups against a major group, situations like this, some smaller groups knowing fully well they aren't capable of putting up a good fight align with the bigger group, leaving their own identity to forge with the bigger group just to remain relevant, thereby expanding the influence of the major group.

A very funny situation, it takes a lot of sacrifices and determination to pull your own people out of such union. A common experience if you study the relationships among humans.

You have a very strong point. Uniting smaller groups against a major group is difficult, but not when religion is the criteria.

Hausa fulanis use religion to divide the north and give themselves a majority status. If the Christians also decide to use religion to unite the minority groups, then they will control the minorities region which is bigger than the Hausa fulani region.

As it stands, all Christian dominated tribes of the north clearly know that they can never form any sort of alliance with the Hausa fulanis rather than themselves. Gbagyis tried it in Kaduna state, but it backfired on them. Tivs tried it in 2015 by supporting Buhari with the hope that they will get Senate Presidency, it also backfired and they were heavily slaughtered by the herdsmen years later.

Northern Christian minority tribes are very easy to unite on a regional level because they are very small in size. Except for the Tivs, Idomas, Igedes & Igalas.

Take Plateau, Nasarawa, Southern Kaduna, FCT, Taraba, Adamawa, Southern Gombe, Southern Borno, Southern Bauchi, Eastern & Northern Niger & Southern Kebbi for instance. All these places are dominated by predominantly Christian tribes and these tribes put together are more than 200 in number!

Apart from the Gbagyi, no other tribe is up to 5% of the population of all these tribes put together. Even the Gbagyis who are the largest are like 8% of the union and they are heavily decentralized.

So, no tribe in such a union can feel too big or too important because you are like a grain of sand on a seashore.

This is very much unlike the case of your own Niger Delta region where the tribes are larger in size and everyone feels very important and indispensable. These are some of the reasons why I strongly feel that a Niger Delta republic as a country can never really work.

scholes0:
People will move more to places where they can legitimately hustle than one propped up by the national economy.
If Abuja wants to legitimately compete with Lagos into the far future, it would have to develop an Industrial base, a real organic city structure (not just a city center governmental facade surrounded by shanties and middle class living areas) and then offer residents a diversity of lifestyle choices like Lagos. But I am not sure if that will happen being that it does not tally with Abuja's initial purpose since it is meant to be a planned and serene/orderly city.

Lagos's own problem stems mostly from the general state of transport infrastructure leading to massive bottlenecks such as endless holdups. It should take more to the marine segment while also expanding existing terrestrial road structures including building new ones and increasing linkability between areas by offering more route choices.
It should also try to decentralize governing structure. Let all those LCDA's start operating like independent mini cities. No reason why Lekki should be fundamentally attached to Lagos when it can be its own independent City of Lekki. It will soon have a fully operational Seaport, there are universities there such as the Pan Atlantic University, several industrial complexes, leisure spots, And might soon have an airport!

That is how it usually works in the Western world. Once a suburb gets too big and developed, it becomes an independent incorporated city.

I wish I could relike this comment of yours.

For me I think Lagos has to create alternative means of transportation and not just building more roads for more and more cars to come in.

Lagos State govt has the money, they should work on building trams, improve the water transportation system and if possible build a Subway. Can't you see Western & East Asian cities? They have all the road networks in the world, yet they still experience traffic jams... If not for their trams, ferry transportation and most especially subway transport, these cities would have been hell!



About Abuja Municipal, it was meant to be an orderly capital city just as you said. It has no soul and that is why people call it a fake or ghost city. Karu Urban & Suleja urban is where the soul of the city lies. It is up to the Nasarawa & Niger state governments to make both places work.
There was a lawmaker that once made a move for Karu urban & Suleja urban to be brought into the FCT and administered by the FCT in order to make both urban areas more liveable and developed. It could have been a good idea, but it will never work, and besides what have the so called FCTA done with Gwagwalada, Bwari & Kuje that are under it's custody?

Ogun state govt has understood the treasure it has in Ifo, Ota areas and it has taken advantage of it, but I really wonder why Niger & Nasarawa state govts are not seeing the huge opportunities in Suleja & Karu, rather they prefer to focus on Minna & Lafia that can never compete with Suleja & Karu, no mater the investments poured into them.

scholes0:
Yes Abuja urban area grew so fast initially, the reason being it was a newly emerging city as a lot of things were being moved away from Lagos and transplanted into Abuja. It happens with every new urban center experiencing a growth spurt. But it will all naturally slow down eventually and grow at a rate just slightly higher than other major urban areas of the country (Bar Lagos and maybe PH and some other new place where something big happens) but nothing as phenomenal as before. In fact it has already slowed. The greatest period of growth of Abuja was between 1995 and 2010. It has slowed somewhat since this er although still growing fast, it will eventually level out.
This is exactly the pattern that Brasilia the new capital city of Brazil followed.

As we speak Lagos is back among the Global top10 so it does not look like Abuja would catch up anytime soon, if ever.

[img]http:///65535/49704752931_0600eb9d92_z.jpg[/img]

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/urban_growth1.html

You are correct, Abuja's growth will eventually slow down. Especially considering the fact that Nasarawa & Niger state governments are not doing anything tangible to improve Karu & Suleja urban.
However, if things like industries, better estates, malls, good roads & infrastructures are put in place in Karu urban & Suleja urban. The growth of these places may not really slow down.

Abuja Municipal will always keep on growing, cos many wealthy Nigerians keep relocating there on daily basis due to the high level of development, sanity & serenity of the place. More and more estates are being built there on daily basis.

Grgton:
Abuja or FCT generally shouldn't have a large landmass. just like Washington DC in USA. A capital shouldn't be obsessed with urbanization or much population giving to the fact that there are other states needed to be developed in the country.

Human beings are very opportunistic in nature. They will all rush to a place they feel that there are more opportunities.

helinues:
And you think Lagos government are sleeping?

Immigration does not work the way you think it does.

Agboriotejoye:
Like I told you then and this gentleman has said same now, if you're talking about living in one town and working in the other, you have to add apomu, ikire, lalupon, Iwo, fiditi as part of Ibadan. That will make Ibadan larger than Lagos self I can assure you.
Ibadan is contiguous and not scattered and that's what you're using to claim Abuja is bigger than it is. Perish that thought bro.

There is no way Ikire & Iwo can be counted as part of Ibadan Metropolitan area. These towns have been existing and developing on their own independently of Ibadan for decades.

Yes, Lalupon can be considered part of Ibadan metro and scholes0 included it into his measurement. He also included Agudu & Omi-Adio. Fiditi is under Oyo urban area, it does not fall under Ibadan's influence. Idi Ayunre is the only town that could also be measured under Ibadan which he did not include.

Please, read and digest my reply below to scholes0 to clearly understand how a Metropolitan area is defined.

Nowenuse:
Get this clear, a town or urban area being under another town's metro area is not based on popularity or unpopularity. It is based on the fact that one's growth is dependent, tied or influenced by the other.
Take Effurun (Uvwie), Udu and Warri proper for example. Effurun & Udu would have been no different from smaller towns like Orerokpe if not for Warri.
Warri developed into these places because Warri could not develop eastwards into the swamps/waters. Today, Uvwie & Udu are heavily urban and development has already started spreading into Ughelli south & Okpe LGAs.

Udu & Uvwie became what they are today because of Warri and that is why their existence and identity is tied to Warri.
Benin is just 1 hour away from Warri, but you can never go to a park in Benin and tell them that you want to travel to Udu or Uvwie, you will be seen as either a lost person or a mad person. You have to say you are going to Warri before anyone understands you!

But this is not the case for Ughelli. There is a separate vehicle and even separate parks in Benin that load to Ughelli and do you know that some parts of Ughelli are even closer to some parts of Warri than some parts of Udu are?

So, the question is why and how could Warri swallow up the identities of Udu & Effurun (Uvwie), but Warri can never try that with Ughelli?

The answer is very simple, WARRI GAVE BIRTH TO UDU & EFFURUN! Hence they are tied together and inseperable. The social life, worklife, businesses & economy of Udu & Effurun are tied to Warri.
Ughelli on the other hand has existed and developed to be an urban area of it's own without the influence of Warri. These things are very simple things.

Even if Warri and Ughelli merge in the nearest future, which they soon will, Warri will still never swallow up Ughelli's identity, it will never happen.

Warri & Ughelli are just like Aba & PH or Abeokuta & Lagos. While Abuja, Suleja, Karu, Gwagwalada e.t.c are just like Warri, Udu & Effurun.

Onitsha & Asaba are only separated by a river, just like Kaduna north & south, but they are not considered one Metropolitan or urban area, but had it been that Onitsha's development spread was what made Asaba what it is today, then Asaba would have been considered a part of Onitsha metro, cos it's existence would have been tied to Onitsha.

30% of what is known as Jos today is Bukuru, but imagine me going to a park in Lagos or Abuja or even Bauchi that is 1 hour away from Jos, and telling them that I want to travel to Bukuru. Will I not be deemed mad?
Bukuru was a small town of it's own very far from Jos main town in the past, but over the years, Jos developed into Bukuru and swallowed it up. Jos is about to or has already swallowed up Vom, Kuru, Zawan and even Du. These places originally have no business with Jos, they were small towns of their own.

Today you probably have more new houses being built in Bukuru than Jos proper where so many houses are old. But Bukuru would never have been what it is today without Jos!

If you still don't understand the differences then I give up.

Agboriotejoye:
I told you on the other thread that Abuja is to all intents and purposes not larger than Ibadan. And dis is from a layman who has been to both places and reached the extremes down to the centres. Forget your pins, anyone who has been to Ibadan and Abuja will know Ibadan is larger than Abuja. This one na eye problem not ear.

Your last paragraph, suleja is not developing towards Minna. It cannot self. Suleja is developing eastwards towards Abuja. Suleja to Minna is about 80 to 90km away and most is bush and forests. In between, there's nothing to show that they're developing towards each other. Same with karu, it's developing towards Abuja not towards keffi. Like I told you then and this gentleman has said same now, if you're talking about living in one town and working in the other, you have to add apomu, ikire, lalupon, Iwo, fiditi as part of Ibadan. That will make Ibadan larger than Lagos self I can assure you.
Ibadan is contiguous and not scattered and that's what you're using to claim Abuja is bigger than it is. Perish that thought bro.

Ibadan is bigger than Abuja Municipal no doubt, but it can never be bigger than Abuja metro with Karu urban, Suleja urban, Gwagwalada, Kuje, Bwari and all the other smaller towns in between the 6 towns/urban areas combined. It is very much impossible.

Ibadan only looks bigger because it is one urban area unlike Abuja metro that comprises of multiple urban areas and towns.

I said Suleja is developing towards Minna and I do not mean that it is close to Minna. These are 2 different things. Of course, Minna is still very far from Suleja.
Suleja has developed outside Suleja LGA into Diko town in Gurara LGA and now Diko town has merged with Suleja, Madalla, & Zuba into one urban area.
How can Suleja develop towards Abuja when it was Abuja that developed into Suleja through Zuba & Madalla?
Check your maps and see that Suleja is developing in 2 directions, towards Tafa town on the Kaduna expressway after Zuba and towards Kwaka & Gwachife towns on the road to Minna.

For you to say Karu is developing towards Abuja has shown that you don't even know anything about Karu & Abuja as a whole.
Karu is developing in different directions, but along the Abuja-Keffi express has seen the fastest development e.g Masaka! Masaka has now merged with Uke town and from Uke to Keffi is 20km (10 mins) on the express. And even between Uke to Keffi, there are 4-5 small towns on the road. Karu Urban is merging with Keffi in 5-10 years time.

scholes0:
Actually, since you prefer less pins and actually like to see more distance between pegged points, Here is Ibadan measured in the same way you have done. And it is 1,032 km2 which is substantially larger than my previous more accurate measure. This method you prefer is highly inaccurate and can lead to errors of oversight.

[img]http:///65535/49711360126_ab2dd03176_b.jpg[/img]

Still larger than Abuja plus Gwagwalanda and all those other places at 704km2. You can't expect to measure ABJ like that and compare it to a carefully measured outline of ibadan that actually follows the accuracy rules of Geography, it wouldn't be scientific.

Lol . Me saying that you should use less pins does not mean that you should completely measure bushes!
If you must use more pins, you should at least snap multiple pictures showing the various extents of your measurements. That was why I insisted that you measure Suleja, Karu, Abuja Municipal, Bwari, Gwagwalada & Kuje separately.

Let me know when you have done it.

You added too many green areas to your measurement of Ibadan. And it is very obvious from your pictures.

We cannot conclude if Ibadan is bigger than Abuja until I see your measurements of the different urban areas that make up Abuja.

Do your own measurements and let's compare them with mine. Cos as it's stands, mine looks more accurate & neat since I separated the urban areas from each other, unlike yours where you joined everything from Niger state to Nasarawa state into a chaotic mess.

Your measurement of Ibadan is 700km² since you included most of the outskirt suburbs which I did not include in my measurement of Ibadan.

My friend's measurement of Abuja is 850km² and he did not include 2 suburbs of Karu (Karshi & Uke), 1 suburb of Bwari (Gwaram), the 4 suburbs in between Gwagwalada & Zuba, the whole of Kuje town and other suburbs in between Kuje & Gwagwalada and in between Madalla & Kuje & Municipal (like Gwaska, Toge, Sauka e.t.c).

scholes0:
If Aba and Port Harcourt are not as intertwined as you say, then how is Abuja and Gwagwalada considered intertwined. What is your defination of an interlinked urban area?
The volume of people who move between PH/Obigbo/Aba each day is far greater than that which moves between Gwagwalada or Suleja and Abuja. Yet one is measured together but the other is not?

The only reason your criteria is inconsistent is because poth PH and Aba are popular, but you want to subsume Gwagwa or Suleja under the name "Abuja" because they haven't made a name for themselves yet as cities? That is wrong sir.

Get this clear, a town or urban area being under another town's metro area is not based on popularity or unpopularity. It is based on the fact that one's growth is dependent, tied or influenced by the other.
Take Effurun (Uvwie), Udu and Warri proper for example. Effurun & Udu would have been no different from smaller towns like Orerokpe if not for Warri.
Warri developed into these places because Warri could not develop eastwards into the swamps/waters. Today, Uvwie & Udu are heavily urban and development has already started spreading into Ughelli south & Okpe LGAs.

Udu & Uvwie became what they are today because of Warri and that is why their existence and identity is tied to Warri.
Benin is just 1 hour away from Warri, but you can never go to a park in Benin and tell them that you want to travel to Udu or Uvwie, you will be seen as either a lost person or a mad person. You have to say you are going to Warri before anyone understands you!

But this is not the case for Ughelli. There is a separate vehicle and even separate parks in Benin that load to Ughelli and do you know that some parts of Ughelli are even closer to some parts of Warri than some parts of Udu are?

So, the question is why and how could Warri swallow up the identities of Udu & Effurun (Uvwie), but Warri can never try that with Ughelli?

The answer is very simple, WARRI GAVE BIRTH TO UDU & EFFURUN! Hence they are tied together and inseperable. The social life, worklife, businesses & economy of Udu & Effurun are tied to Warri.
Ughelli on the other hand has existed and developed to be an urban area of it's own without the influence of Warri. These things are very simple things.

Even if Warri and Ughelli merge in the nearest future, which they soon will, Warri will still never swallow up Ughelli's identity, it will never happen.

Warri & Ughelli are just like Aba & PH or Abeokuta & Lagos. While Abuja, Suleja, Karu, Gwagwalada e.t.c are just like Warri, Udu & Effurun.

Onitsha & Asaba are only separated by a river, just like Kaduna north & south, but they are not considered one Metropolitan or urban area, but had it been that Onitsha's development spread was what made Asaba what it is today, then Asaba would have been considered a part of Onitsha metro, cos it's existence would have been tied to Onitsha.

30% of what is known as Jos today is Bukuru, but imagine me going to a park in Lagos or Abuja or even Bauchi that is 1 hour away from Jos, and telling them that I want to travel to Bukuru. Will I not be deemed mad?
Bukuru was a small town of it's own very far from Jos main town in the past, but over the years, Jos developed into Bukuru and swallowed it up. Jos is about to or has already swallowed up Vom, Kuru, Zawan and even Du. These places originally have no business with Jos, they were small towns of their own.

Today you probably have more new houses being built in Bukuru than Jos proper where so many houses are old. But Bukuru would never have been what it is today without Jos!

If you still don't understand the differences then I give up.

scholes0:
It does not matter how you measure the different towns and cities within an urban agglomeration, you will always come up with the same results, either you measure them individually and then add them up or you measure them all at once (if you have the time, consistency and patience to do so) it is maths, it can't be cheated. The map is there nau, we shouldn't even be arguing you can measure it yourself and post what you arrive at here. Infact, it took me about 30 minutes plus to carefully outline Abuja and all the outlying surrounding towns, if I didn't have the ample time on my hands due to the present coronavirus situation + weekend, I would have preferred to do them individually and them add them together like your friend did because If I (or anyone measuring measuring) wasn't being careful about it, I/they would run the risk of adding a lot of uninhabited/non built up areas to Abuja due to how disconnected the entire area is (like you rightfully said)

2: Kuje town if you insist is only about 22kmSq. All those areas you mention can't not be more than 50kmSq put together, and that's pushing it. You are forgetting that the difference between Ibadan and Abuja in my measurements was more than 130 good Kms Squared.
And if are adding all those areas like Kuje to Abuja, then I better start adding Idi Ayunre, Badeku, Igbonna even Iwo, Ikire to Ibadan because that is exactly what it would mean.

Ibadan is clearly larger than Abuja but for whatever reason, you just don't want to accept. Notice that you keep pushing the limits of what is within Abuja to record distances but still fall short in the end. Small thing now, you will ask us to take the measurement of Abuja down to Keffi.

This below was my measurement of 4 major suburban areas that make up Abuja metro. It is far more precise than yours where you joined so many disjointed urban areas with too many pins that one cannot even see the lines between the pins, and mind you Karshi was not included in my measurement of Karu Urban. Karshi is just a stonethrow from Orozo. Uke was not also included and Uke is the last suburb of Karu immediately after Masaka.
Between Uke & Keffi is 20km² and you have 4 small towns in between Uke & Keffi. Uke to Keffi on that express is like 10 mins. Keffi will merge into Karu in the next 5 years.

So you can see that Gwagwalada, Bwari & Kuje combined are about 75km².
Mind you, I was just going through these measurements and I could also see that Gwaram (a suburb of Bwari was not added). Gwaska (a suburb in between Abuja Municipal & Madalla) was not added to either sides. And if we are now including Gwagwalada, what about the 4 communities in between Gwagwalada & Madalla and those between Gwagwalada & Kuje? I never added any of these.

The point is that, just the same way many places were not added to Ibadan in my measurement, many places as well were not added to Abuja.

Anyway, When you have the time. I'd like to see you divide the measurements of the 6 major towns/urban areas that make up Abuja metro, which are Karu urban, Bwari, Gwagwalada, Kuje, Suleja urban & Abuja Municipal.

I repeat, Ibadan can never be larger than Abuja metro. Ibadan only has the advantage of being one circular urban area, unlike Abuja that has 2 urban areas (Suleja & Karu) developing far into Niger & Nasarawa states along the roads to Keffi & Minna.

scholes0:
Your friend tried, but when you go into the fineprint of his measurements for example, one would discover that his measurements for all urban areas were not consistent.
For example, he measured the continuous Ibadan urban sprawl to be 562km², however I did my measurements and went into the details only to discover that the city is in fact 700km² or so which is about 140 SqKm more than what your paddy measured. You will observe that I have used much more pegged points than he has to carefully outline the city limits:

[img]http:///65535/49707695957_ba28353873_b.jpg[/img]

On to Abuja.
First, Gwagwalada can not be added to Abuja, that is a stretch, seriously Gwagwalada to Abuja CBD is about 47Kms or so as the crow flies, and even more distant by road (56km), in that same distance you would have covered central Akure to central Ado Ekiti or Ibadan to Oyo town , or Port Harcourt to Aba!. That both are in the same FCT does not automatically translate to them being the same.

.. Suleja too to an extent, but the fact that there is a string of settlements between Abuja municipal and Suleja township, I would add Suleja to the Abuja measurement for the sake of argument... I have measure the entire Abuja conurbation from Suleja area in Niger state deep into Nasarawa state, and at the end of it all, it comes to 550km²:, which is waay less than the 850km² your German Igbo friend is allocating to that urban area. I don't know how he did his own measurements.

[img]http:///65535/49707580026_17b46d8dbb_h.jpg[/img]

As it turns out, Ibadan is still over 150 km² larger than Abuja +Suleja+ Lugbe +Karu and all those other towns that can be considered a part of Abuja metro (within the scope of fair reasoning)

If I measure Lagos, It would be at least 1,500SqKm.. you just have to forget about Lagos. Your friend didn't even Add: Magboro, Loburo, Atan Otta, Owode Otta to Lagos. Neither did he measure all of Ikorodu.
Also, his Lekki measurement is stopping waaaay short of the actual extent of Lekki, so he is really underestimating the Lagos urban area, while he is adding Bwari and Gwagwalada! too Abuja or Ibusa to Asaba, a place that is neither considered the same town nor that much intertwined with Asaba in terms of urban sprawl.

As for Kano, it is already an established fact that ibadan is larger.

scholes0:
Nowe, living somewhere and working in a larger urban area is not the definition of city limits. Maybe you might want to call that a CMA or a Larger common commuter area. There are people who live in far off towns in England and commute everyday to central london for work because the price of rent in the London city area is off the charts. Like seriously people in towns as close to London as Watford can't even say they live in London talk more people in places like Luton who drive to and from London everyday.

When Lagos-Abeokuta-Ibadan rai becomes a reality and people start railing from Abeokuta to Lagos for work, will Abeokuta suddenly become part of Lagos?
Ibadan as it turns out is larger than both Kano and all of Abuja urban area.

So in Nigeria, the list should go like:

* Lagos Metro
* Ibadan
* Abuja metro
* Kano.
In that order.

Your friend is also overestimating Kaduna, Jos and some other places. For example... Akure looks larger than Owerri to me but your friend's measurement is saying otherwise. If I do the measurements, I would turn out to be right, and your friend wrong.

3) Yes, some suburbs of Lagos & Ibadan were not added to the measurement and I made it clear on that thread. Likewise parts of Abuja too were not added as you can see!

In your own measurement of Abuja u also did not include many parts of Abuja, Karu & Suleja urban. Do your measurements of Abuja Municipal, Karu Urban & Suleja-Zuba-Madalla-Diko urban separately!
And try to stop using too many pins, it defeats the aim of measurement if the lines between the pins are not visible enough.

4) For you to say Jos & Kaduna were overestimated shows that you don't know these places.
A very big suburb of Kaduna called Katabu (Mararaban Jos) and even Kujama town (the LG headquarters of Chikun LGA) was not included in the Kaduna measurement. Otherwise Kaduna should be close to 500km².

Are you aware that both Jos & Kaduna have been developing cities for almost 100 years now? Kaduna was capital city since Northern protectorate days, while Jos became capital city of 3½ states today since 1967 and before then it was the pre independent tin mining city where the British brought in workers from all over Nigeria to work on the tin mines which was among the top 5 income generators for the pre independent Nigeria?

Never you underestimate Jos & Kaduna. Only Ibadan, Benin, PH and Lagos (cities in the south) can measure up these cities in size and significance.

No one can really get a 100% proper measurement of these cities. The best we can work with are aggregates.

5) As for Abeokuta to Lagos, a railway cannot really make the businesses, economy, social life and worklife of both cities merge together. Abeokuta is 54km away from Ifo and Ifo is one of the last suburbs on the extreme end away from Lagos proper. It will take more than a railway to tie Abeokuta & Lagos together.

Also, Abeokuta did not develop from the influence of Lagos, so it is not dependent on Lagos.
This is unlike Gwagwalada, Bwari, Kuje e.t.c that started developing because of Abuja Municipal and have their existence tied to Abuja Municipal.
Try to read up the definition of a METROPOLIS, METROPOLITAN AREA & GREATER URBAN AREA to understand these things.

For example, the distance between Ekiugbo town (Ughelli Urban) to Agbarho (Warri urban) is 5 mins, but it will still take a long time before Ughelli & Warri can merge and function as one.

For the records, Igbuzor has merged with Asaba. Even Ogwashi Uku will merge with Asaba in the next 5-10 years. You don't even know when you're in Igbuzor or Ogwashi because the houses have merged together along the road.

There is no way Ibadan urban area can be bigger than Abuja Metropolitan area. Abuja is now a connurbation of multiple urban areas.

scholes0:
Your friend tried, but when you go into the fineprint of his measurements for example, one would discover that his measurements for all urban areas were not consistent.
For example, he measured the continuous Ibadan urban sprawl to be 562km², however I did my measurements and went into the details only to discover that the city is in fact 700km² or so which is about 140 SqKm more than what your paddy measured. You will observe that I have used much more pegged points than he has to carefully outline the city limits:

[img]http:///65535/49707695957_ba28353873_b.jpg[/img]

On to Abuja.
First, Gwagwalada can not be added to Abuja, that is a stretch, seriously Gwagwalada to Abuja CBD is about 47Kms or so as the crow flies, and even more distant by road (56km), in that same distance you would have covered central Akure to central Ado Ekiti or Ibadan to Oyo town , or Port Harcourt to Aba!. That both are in the same FCT does not automatically translate to them being the same.

.. Suleja too to an extent, but the fact that there is a string of settlements between Abuja municipal and Suleja township, I would add Suleja to the Abuja measurement for the sake of argument... I have measure the entire Abuja conurbation from Suleja area in Niger state deep into Nasarawa state, and at the end of it all, it comes to 550km²:, which is waay less than the 850km² your German Igbo friend is allocating to that urban area. I don't know how he did his own measurements.

[img]http:///65535/49707580026_17b46d8dbb_h.jpg[/img]

As it turns out, Ibadan is still over 150 km² larger than Abuja +Suleja+ Lugbe +Karu and all those other towns that can be considered a part of Abuja metro (within the scope of fair reasoning)

If I measure Lagos, It would be at least 1,500SqKm.. you just have to forget about Lagos. Your friend didn't even Add: Magboro, Loburo, Atan Otta, Owode Otta to Lagos. Neither did he measure all of Ikorodu.
Also, his Lekki measurement is stopping waaaay short of the actual extent of Lekki, so he is really underestimating the Lagos urban area, while he is adding Bwari and Gwagwalada! too Abuja or Ibusa to Asaba, a place that is neither considered the same town nor that much intertwined with Asaba in terms of urban sprawl.

As for Kano, it is already an established fact that ibadan is larger.

1) Nice efforts, but you must know that you cannot measure Abuja municipal, Suleja & Karu as one urban area in the same manner with which you measure Ibadan.
This is due to the disjointed nature of the different urban areas and towns that make up Abuja.
Same way you cannot measure Lagos as one urban area, hence the reason we split the measurements. You can never get the proper measurement of an urban agglomeration by measuring it together.

2) Abuja metro should even be higher than the measurement we gave it because we did not include Kuje town and the small towns on your way to Gwagwalada from Zuba.

Yes, Gwagwalada, Bwari and even Kuje are part of Abuja Metropolitan area. The businesses, social life and economy of these places are all tied to Abuja. Do not judge Gwagwalada based on it's distance from Abuja CBD and compare it to that of other cities, because the road from Gwagwalada to Abuja is very good and it is a highway express. Rather what u measure is the distance in time from Gwagwalada to CBD and how economically tied Gwagwalada is to Abuja Municipal.
It takes less than 30 mins from Gwagwalada to Kubwa in Abuja Municipal on the highway through Zuba.

Gwagwalada to Zuba is 34km and between this 34km, you have 4 towns along the road (Tungan Maje, Anagada, Giri & Gwako). From Gwagwalada to all these towns to Zuba is like a 5 mins interval between them.

I grew up in Warri and there are places that one will go within Warri-Udu urban that will take you at least 50 mins. E.g from Ekpan (Uvwie) where my house is to Orhuworhun (Udu) where my church is located is 30 mins drive. Mind you, this is on a free road without any form of hold up or delay. If u are going from a place like Ugbokodo/Ughoton in the same Uvwie LGA to Aladja or Usieffurun in same Udu LGA, it will take you like 50 mins on a free road.... And all these places are within one urban area!

This is also same thing in Benin, going from a place like Oluku to Ikhueniro or Oluku to Obe on a free road, it will take you up to 40 mins. With little normal traffic it takes up to 1 hour.

Infact, distance in time or km between the suburbs should never be a defining factor to a metropolitan area. If not, how do u explain American/Canadian cities and other Western cities that are extremely large due to the gigantic nature of their well planned suburbs?

With the high quality road network in a place like New York, there are suburban areas you can transit that will take you 1-2 hours!

Aba & PH may be close, but their economies, businesses, work and social lives are not tied together, so they can never be considered 1 metro until they physically merge with each other. Apart from Kwali, Abaji and other farther towns from Abuja Municipal within FCT, almost all the other towns within FCT are developing rapidly in size because of Abuja. The social life, businesses and economy of these smaller towns are tied to Abuja and inseparable. It is on this note that they are considered part of Abuja Metropolitan area.

See the distance between Madalla & Gwagwalada below, if you zoom in, u will see 4 small towns in between, including Giri town which is the road to the Airport.

bigfrancis21:
You have a point but not completely. Igbos of the past saw all others around them as 'Igbo' but not them. Igbere (Igbo ere) in Abia state was given by the townspeople in reference to the Aro slave traders' failed attempts to invade and defeat them in their bid to acquire slaves. In memory of their victory, they named their town, Igbo ereghi/Igbo ere (Igbos could not sell us), or Igbere for short. That is, they saw the Aros (ironically, people who have links with the Ibibio) as Igbos but not them even though they all spoke the same language. The Owere people saw others around them as 'Isoma' but not them. The Ikweres saw non-Ikweres as 'Isoma' but not them. And so on. I think this stems from the waves of migratory pattern in the past. When people crossed borders and moved into new linguistic domains and settled, they often may not have mentally identified themselves as the 'original people'/'sons of the land', or 'Igbos' despite having acculturated completely linguistically, culturally and otherwise. Thus, when asked if they were Igbo, they would point out to their next door neighbors who they met there upon arrival as the Igbos aka original occupants or predecessors or 'sons of the soil' etc. A good example would be some Yorubas who settled in Imo state and 3 generations later, their descendants are completely Igbo in names, language, culture etc but with retained memories of their ancestral origins in Ogun state, for example. Due to their ancestral origins being in mind and despite being Igbo today, they may point to other towns surrounding them as the Igbos (aborigines) if asked, and not them. Not that they thought being Igbo was bad per se and they were denying being attached to the name. The fact that Igbos lost the war didn't help but added more salt to the lingering and seemingly insignificant injury.

Ironically, we have plenty of Igbo-attached names all over Igbo-speaking SE and SS areas.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense.

But I think that Igbo tag would not really apply to larger Igbo subgroups who had a strong subtribal identity and culture, like the Nkanu, Nsukka, Enuani, Ukwuani, Ngwa e.t.c

I'm very sure all Igbo speaking people across the east knew the subgroups above with the names they call themselves... I highly doubt that someone across the Niger would have addressed an Enuani man as IGBO in those days.
Take Onitsha & Oguta for example, these were communities in the east founded by Anioma immigrants some few hundred years ago. However, their neighbors in the East never addressed them as Igbo, rather they were the ones who addressed their neighbors as Igbo.

While communities in Western Igbo land founded by immigrants from the East had the 'Igbo appellation' cos the Western Igbos saw them as Igbos.

From all these narratives, it is quite clear that every Igbo speaking person had a certain definition of who he thought was 'Igbo' in the past.
For the Anioma people, it was clearly anyone across the River Niger, while in the SE it seems like it could mean Aboriginal people (based on what u said), it could also mean FOREIGNERS who spoke a similar (Igbo based) language e.t.c

Talking about the Ikwerres & Owerres addressing others as Isuoma. I kind of find it uncertain because I don't think Ikwerres call their Igbo speaking neighbors (like Etche, Ogba & Ekpeye) Isuoma. The name seems to be used for people from the SE. I don't think they also call their non Igbo speaking neighbors (like Ijaws & Ogonis) Isuoma.

All these things are just very very fluid. Had it been we had very strong ethno-linguistic researchers, historians & anthropologists from Nigeria, they could have done better research on these things.
Right now we are working on guesses and the little info we have available.


Black Africans are the LIVE AND LET LIVE kind of people. Everyone loved his or her autonomy and so no need for building large ethnic groups. Apart from the Cushitic/Semitic people of Horn Africa who were relatively more civilized and the Bantu tribes who were aggressive expansionists, seeing large Black West African tribes like Yoruba, Hausa & Igbo today was the pure handiwork of the British.
Although, Hausas were unified by the fulani caliphate before the British came. Though the identity HAUSA took back seat to ISLAM until the British came.

Look at the Mende speaking peoples all over French west Africa. Had it been it was the British who colonized French West Africa, they would have merged all these Mende speaking peoples as one large ethnic group, but the French did not operate that way.

scholes0:
How can Karu be up to 2 million people? lol
Ilorin is faar bigger than Karu. Heck, it isn't even nearly as large as the Osogbo urban area

It is very clear that you did not see this thread where most top urban areas of Nigeria were measured.
Go through this thread below and digest it very well, then come back.

https://www.nairaland.com/5728975/25-largest-cities-urban-areas

Karu is now far bigger than you think it is.
It also has a very congested population.

scholes0:
Karu that is like Ibafo while Kubwa and Madalla together are like Badagry agglo.
Those are the Eastern and Western limits of Abuja proper anything further would be pushing it, and they won't be able to catapult the Abuja agglomeration to topple Lagos. Also Lagos has the coastal, industrial and "Buzz capital" advantage and the ability to form a conurbation with larger surrounding settlements. The closest large town to Abuja is Minna in Niger state, which is even closer than Kaduna. Besides, There are not than much empty green spaces within Lagos except in areas criss-crossed by water which can not be built over, whereas the Abuja area is just too disjointed to form a single continuous urban area. I think because of the undulating terrain.

Zuba & Madalla developed from Abuja and merged into Suleja... Suleja merged into Diko and the combined urban area km² of this Zuba-Madalla-Suleja-Diko urban area is about 113km², the same size with Asaba city and bigger than Calabar city.

Karu Urban which is about 188km² is the 5th largest urban area in the north after Abuja, Kano, Kaduna & Jos..... On it's own, it is bigger than Maiduguri, Zaria, Bauchi, Sokoto e.t.c and it is now almost merging with Keffi.
Ado or Uke to Keffi is like 10 mins drive.

Look at the map below and see how Karu Urban is developing. And remember that Karu Urban is the fastest growing Urban area in Africa, at 40% per annum. Almost 10x faster than Lagos.

ZKOSOSO:
Karu area includes Karshi orozo, jikwoyi, Karu site, nyanya, mararaba, new karu, masaka, goshen, Aso, gbagalape,...etc

Pls if you don't mind, where are you from?

scholes0:
Nope.
Abuja is growing into Nassarawa and might probably extend to parts of niger in the future.

Lagos is growing into Ogun... Ikorodu and Lekki are exploding.

Besides, some of these areas you are adding to "Auja agglomeration" is a stretch..... too disjointed and far away to be part of Abuja metro. They are their own towns/metros.
lol if you are counting Suleja and New Karu as part of Abuja metro, then Abeokuta will become part of Lagos metro. Is Abuja even bigger than Ibadan? Mind you, Ibadan is bigger than Kano, forget the nonsense Naija stats that has been misinforming everybody than Kano is #2 and larger than Ibadan at #3...

Ikorodu & Lekki are part of Lagos Metropolitan area/ Greater Lagos urban area. Likewise, Ota & Ibafo in Lagos...

People live in Suleja & Karu and work in Abuja Municipal. Can people live in Abeokuta and work in Lagos? Abeokuta is still too far and disjointed from Lagos for it to be considered part of Lagos metro.

Of course Ibadan is bigger than Kano, we did the measurements and thrashed the issue on a previous thread. I'm sure u were there.

https://www.nairaland.com/5728975/25-largest-cities-urban-areas

Ibadan is bigger than Abuja Municipal. But Abuja is bigger if you add the surrounding Urban areas that it has merged with.

Blue3k2:
Why not chart it? I'll just guess no.

Sorry please what does this mean?

Frenchkiss564:
This should not come as a surprise. Lagos state has the smallest land mass in the country. The growth of Abuja is due to the fact that it is the seat of the central government and nothing more. It is not industrialised neither does it contribute anything worthwhile to the national purse. Abuja is like an obessed child leeching solely on the oil of the nigerdelta.

OP, the last time I checked suleja is part of Niger state and not Abuja. You may want to correct that.

Abuja is a leeching city because the FG decided to leave it that way. The moment FCT leaves that place, it becomes active.

Suleja is part of Abuja metropolitan area even though it is in Niger state. Abuja developed into it and merged together with it through Zuba & Madalla.... Same way Lagos developed into parts of Ogun state.

ZKOSOSO:
Think the religious intolerance of HausaFulanisKanuri Muslims over the last 40 yrs across the core North has caused aggressive relocation to a Christian forte of the middle belt at Abuja. Talking from experience...!

Yes you are kinda correct with this.
Extremism and intolerance never pays. If the Hausa fulanis were very tolerant, progressive and liberal, Kano would not easily have lost out to Abuja as the largest city in the North.

Their loss.

Abuja is strongly within Middlebelt lands and with all the development in it, if the country divides, it will never fall into the Hands of the HFK (Hausa fulanis Kanuris). Cos it is very obvious that Middlebelt people will never join HFK in one country if Nigeria divides.

Kano metropolis used to be by far the largest urban area in Northern Nigeria followed by Kaduna & Jos, but over the years, the Abuja urban agglomeration (which includes Abuja Municipal, Karu Urban, Suleja urban, Gwagwalada, Bwari, Kuje e.t.c) has overtaken it.

From year 2000 to 2010, Abuja grew by 140%, making it the fastest growing city in the world.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151117022953/http://blog.euromonitor.com/2010/03/special-report-worlds-fastest-growing-cities-are-in-asia-and-africa.html

As of 2015, Abuja grew with 35% per annum, retaining it's position as the fastest growing city on the African continent, higher than Lagos.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160204113031/http://www.abujafacts.ng/top-5-cities-to-do-business-in-nigeria-abuja-is-2nd/

Karu area which was filled with empty villages 2-3 decades ago has become an entire Urban area of it's own.
It is the fastest growing urban area in Nigeria and Africa at 40% per annum and it can now rank among the 10 largest urban areas of Nigeria on it's own.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110928204947/http://www.nasarawastate.org/news1/10222113251.htm

It is no longer a satellite town of Abuja, but now an entire Urban area of it's own with an estimated population of over 2 million people as at some years ago.

The same with Zuba-Madalla-Suleja-Diko urban area. 4 originally distinct towns that have now merged into 1 large urban area and keeps on expanding.

Abuja metropolitan area is now about half the size of Lagos Metropolitan area in terms of Land area and the population should also be running close to half of that of Lagos metro based on estimates.


The question is with the higher population growth, could Abuja metro overtake Lagos metro and become the largest urban area in Africa anytime in the future?

senatordave1:
Kaduna is 55% Muslims or 60%

Kaduna city or Kaduna state? Which one?

saaron:
Your description of northern christians as politically foolish is very correct. That's why christians are being slaughtered and dominated over by fulani savages.
ONE NIGERIA IS DEAD!

Fulanis cannot mess with certain Northern Christian tribes .... They only mess with the weaker ones.
The only problem comes because the stronger tribes are not helping the weaker ones cos everyone believes in his/her ethnic group alone.

A unity of all these tribes will put an immediate end to fulani havoc.

Efewestern:
I used to think so, but not anymore, The northern minorities aren't just fortunate enough. It's actually difficult for people of different ethnicity to come together to archive a common goal, In situations such as this, the Major ethnic group, even if they do not make 30% of the entire population will use their unity in strength and a game of divide and rule to dominate 70% of the remaining population (minorities).

I have come to realize In life that it's always disastrous having minorities with a major group, the minorities, no matter how many they are, will be subdued. We have seen this happen over and over again all over the world.

You are very very correct with this.
Uniting minority groups against a majority group is a very very difficult thing to do.

That is why minorities and a majority must never be put together under the same political unit/structure.

macof:
Hmm. Interesting and could be very well not far from the truth

But the northern minorities and Christians are political foolish. Instead of banding together you prefer to remain small

Yes, we have started working on that on a new platform, cos it is obvious that the Middlebelt of a thing has been a failure due to difference in interest.

Some middlebelt muslims like Nupes & Ebiras prefer an Islamic alliance with the core north over a minority alliance and that is why people like me have distanced myself from Middlebelt platforms.