₦airaland Forum

Hello DeepSight:

Please note that everything I write remains just my own view and is based on my personal understanding. Any perceived failure(s) are mine and I do not claim to speak as God.


The Claim that Jesus is God

DeepSight, humor me and touch yourself! If I am right, you just touched a part of your body. Try again! Same ehn? Now get someone to call you and answer. YOU just answered. I posit that YOU ARE YOUR WORD. Going to lower animals, lets consider say, your dog. As you approach your home, you honk the vehicle horn and he starts to bark - have you noticed you automatically go "Oh yeah, that is BINGO barking"? Or by chance, did you ever hear a bark and assume it was a neighbor?

John tells us that in the Beginning was the Word which was with God and was God. I do not believe in the Koran yet it also says the same though they find cause to explain it differently. But here, I have explained how I see it.

Again, I wish to go into Character. Sinless, Blameless, Miracle-working, loving, kind, humble etc. What other attributes would you have? I negate the word "Pride" which would require God be a bully for all proud entities are bullies. Were He that, many of us on NL would be long dead.

Lets get this first one clear before I go to the second query you've presented me with. Your serve?

The ten commandments are sourced from the Jewish Torah which luckily has survived to date. They detail that the Vulgate or Bible of the Catholic Church has changed those commandments. However, the protestant Bibles agree with the Torah in the listing of the commandments. The Roman Church also kept the Scriptures hidden away for hundreds of years and the ordinary man had no access to the Word of God except as preached by Priests on the Altar. Mary became "revered" and "divine", the wafer became the real flesh of Jesus, "purgatory" (a term not found or supported by the Bible) came into the pulpits and so many other things started to happen. These people were interested in Power and so the Pope became "Vicarius Filli Dei" (Vicar of the Son of God), a post other christians believe belongs to the Holy Spirit itself. During the hundreds of years that the Papacy sat astride the world, another notable religion came up. Islam. This too became another major alternative to Christ and in fact claims Jesus was a prophet under their religion. We believe all these were tactics meant to take more and more away from true Christianity as practiced by the early Christians. For more information on the changes effected by the Papacy, see

http://www.reformation.org/vatican-against-orthodox-church.html
http://www.reformation.org/6-constantinian-changes.html

I have offered ALL the above simply because I see so many claims that there are different Christianities with differing number of gods and ideologies. Regardless of the number of Bibles or denominations, there is only 1 Christianity and its not what many think. It is the pure belief system we find in the lives of the early church

For more information on Constantines' Christianity, see
http://www.reformation.org/pope-constantine.html

My interpretation of my prior post is that Satan had decided to fight against Christianity not only from without but also now from within. Watering down the truth is a far more effective weapon than telling an easily recognizable outright lie. The tortures and killings were only adding to the number of Christians as many onlookers experienced a conversion to the dismay of Rome and Satan.

Now, the christian had a dilemma. We've accepted you, even accepted your religion and changed our festivals to honor YOUR OWN GOD. what then is your reason to continue refusing to negotiate with us? The watering down had started

"Wide Acceptance"

In 312AD, then General Constantine faced a battle with another rival general over the throne of Rome. He had a rag-tag weary army that was up against a much larger army. Whist musing over his chances one day, He had a vision in which He saw a cross in the sky with the words "in hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, conquer). Having no other source of encouragement, he had his men inscribe the sign of the cross unto their shields and marched to an amazing victory. Following this upset, he became Caesar and proclaimed himself Christian. History shows though, that this man lived as far apart from the tenets of Christianity as possible. He knew that a ruler of such as Rome had to do things that were against Christian teachings, so he waited until he no longer had to do such things and thus was baptized only on his death-bed. Still, he was the 1st Pope.

His "political" Christianity required he carry along the roman nobility who had many gods and were not amenable to the strict discipline they saw in Christianity. He allowed them bring amongst others, the end of the winter solstice (December 25), a holiday they had celebrated for many years as birth of the SUN-god into Christianity as birthday of the SON OF GOD. Same for the festival of Ishtar, the goddess of fertility, which suddenly became Easter.

Some of what he brought in compelled him to turn to the Word of God and try to change it to achieve unity. The council of Nicea decided to bring together the books of the Torah and the writings and accounts of the earlier Apostles into a single volume called the Bible.  By the time Constantine was on his deathbed, Rome had a new power which was not only military political but also religious. The church of Rome or the Papacy. The Pope now sat on the throne of the Caesars and this power had its own interpretation of what Christianity had to be like.

@DeepSight:

Please open another thread and I'll go straight to "that" chase there. What I'm trying to do here is different from what you're asking.

BTW, I like your words. Its how I express myself too when something doesn't make sense to me.

DeepSight's another one of them. Notice the vocabulary? See the dis-satisfaction?

Early Christianity

At the time of the ascension, almost all the existing followers of Jesus were Jews. Their movement was centered in Jerusalem, in an "Upper Room" where they met and were led by James the Just. The Acts of the Apostles asserts "All the believers were united and shared everything with one another. They sold their possessions and goods and distributed the proceeds to anyone who was in need." They held faithfully to the Torah and Jewish law which included acceptance of Gentile converts based on what appears to be a version of the Noachide laws (Acts 15 and Acts 21).

Their worship mode took the form of a Jewish eschatological faith. The book of Acts reports that the early followers continued daily Temple attendance and traditional Jewish home prayer. Other passages in the New Testament gospels reflect a similar observance of traditional Jewish piety such as fasting, reverence for the Torah and observance of Jewish holy days. The earliest form of Jesus's religion is best understood in this context.

Following the travels of Paul and subsequent conversion of many "Gentiles", a problem arose. The Gentiles did not circumcise themselves and the Jews insisted on circumcision. Both Peter and Paul found themselves in favor of relaxing the requirements for Gentiles, and their arguments carried the day. It was agreed that circumcision and the full Jewish dietary restrictions were not compulsory for Christians. A letter to this effect is sent to all Gentile Christians. When it is read out aloud to each assembled community, the Gentiles 'rejoice for the consolation'. It is a turning point for the growing church as the Christian population literally explodes overnight.

Between 132 - 135, a foremost Rabbi of the Jews named Akiva found his own "military interpretation" of the Messiah in a man named Simon bar Kokhba. This man led a revolt against Rome believing they had support from God and they would win against Rome. The Christians of course, believing Jesus to be their Messiah, had rejected Bar Kokhba and refused to join the revolt. Needless to say, the revolt failed and all ties to the word "Messiah" suddenly had very grave connotations. Christians became as it were, a hunted peoples because they were believed to, also having a Messiah, be against the Emperors. Over the next few hundred years, they were tortured, burnt alive, thrown to wild animals etc. But underground, they existed and continued their pure undefiled form of worship based on the Jewish Torah combined with an understanding that now, they had a voice in Heaven.

Ok, I know a lot of people here believe all manner of stuff about Christianity. What I want to do here is offer the true history which should explain why there's so much noise about "types and modes" of Christianity, Bibles etc

I will be starting from where it started i.e. the Ascension of Jesus. I will also try to avoid using the Bible as its own witness and let history and reason work it out. I welcome all questions "after the fact" e.g. after I say "I'm a man", ask me "whats my name" rather than the thread derailing confusing trend of asking before the fact.

Back in a few with my first submission.

I think the issues you try to resolve are the culprit here. Most questions on NL now seem to me to carry a trap or mischief. Short answers oftentimes cannot cut it at the risk of you looking evasive.

More importantly (and I'd bet my nose on this) is that I think your intellect makes you look at most people as needing extra tutoring to catch your point. I think I also had that problem till I came here and found people discussing science using words I'd never heard before. Nigerians are very intelligent and very educated. Point is, the more intelligent they are, the less you need to tell them before they get your point. Anything over that and they see it as boring since you made your point eons ago (forgetting some don't get it as fast as they do).

Just do your thing but address the big brains here (the sophistication of their vocabulary will identify them) with less words. Tudor and Bawomolo are prime examples of such really intelligent people. Just consider their vocabularies. And dem plenty small here.

PS: That is also why they never get satisfied. They need complication to function

I like what you've used as your basis for faith and mainly agree with you. However, I didn't want you to show these to me. Let me explain -

So many threads here presuppose Christianity to be a confused mish-mash of people each jostling for position and relevance, some for cash, others for power and influence and all following something that seems intrinsically wrong i.e. the notion of a man being placed in the same position as God. I was hoping to find someone who'd for the first time, rather than insult others for questioning his beliefs in a rude/mocking manner, take the bulls by the Horn and present from start a defense for Christianity. Such defense would come as an historical sincere explanation of how the counterfeiting was acheived, the many forms it has taken and why it has continued unabated.

I believe such would be long, would find a lot of opponents threatening/fighting because satan would obviously not want people to become aware of the complications of the last 2 thousand years etc. I also believe from what you've written that you know quite a lot about the issue and thought you'd do a commendable job. You OR Mavenbox!

I would do so but find myself so busy it might go in spurts and starts. Ah well, maybe I'll start putting something together. But your input would be appreciated and please lets try avoiding fighting with the "beast" when it starts!

I've matured in Christianity and learnt Satan started his fight against Christitanity long ago. 1st there was the desire to kill them off through the Romans. When this was ineffective, he started a multi-pronged attack bringing all sorts of doctrines and even creating alternative religions which recognized Christ yet denied Him.

Then we saw Christianity divided into so many groups and having so many revisions it became difficult to find what was true and what wasn't. Now we have the prosperity movement adding to the overall confusion. What I asked was really not a question but rather a desire that you take these issues one after the other and try to show how time, satan, greed has added and subtracted to christianity thereby bringing it to the situation we have today. Then it'd be nice to take the issues that bother most Christians one by one and provide the Biblical perspective.

Nice if you could find that. However, over and above such, I want that you seperate into topics like [1] Holiness [2] Faith [3] giving as opposed to taking [4] offerings etc [5] stories in the Bible.

Then take each and offer a Biblical understanding so readers see what "a true Christians point of view and the Bible "says rather than what the "system" is preaching

Pastor_AIO:

in response to your aptly named "diverting point", where does anyone or any level of reasoning say Jesus had to be the one to say so? How does Him not being the source remove from the truth of the statement. Would you then, argue that taking is better socially/spiritually/emotionally than giving?

Is there any way to detail simple ways to recognize these fakes? My wish would be that you find and offer a concise way of understanding what is true and what is not. Your latest post specifying Paul as Giver rather than what obtains today is brilliant. Can you narrow these issues into straight forward specific points/areas whose truths can then be presented?

Any support you need, call out

The above reminds me of a question that keeps slipping in and out of my mind - Do good muslim women go to heaven? what do these good muslim women get in heaven? 72 "heavy duty" guys + a river of booze/fruit juice ? What?

@uplawal & co:

Better get on the streets and start practicing. You are in for some deep action in heaven. You go hear weeennnnnn!

KunleOshob:
Given my passion for the true gospel of Jesus christ and my eagerness to see "christians" return to christ, i have often toyed with the idea of starting a ministry. But you have to realize that a ministry is not neccesarily a church movement. Infact if we want to be pragmatic i can say i have already started an internet ministry on nairaland cos i constantly minister to others on this forum on the evils of the false man made doctrine of mordern day compulsary tithing. I have also tried to minister to nairalanders on the true gospel of Jesus christ which is purely based on love, so already i can say i have a ministry. however i do not forsee myself starting a church as this is certainly not my calling. God willing my ministry would be one in which i can materially bless others spurned by the love for others which christ as planted in me. God willing i would start an NGO[my idea of a ministry] in which the focus would be to help the poor and the needy and the focus of my ministry would be motherless babies and orphans. This way i believe i would be able to lead more people to christ than the religious merchants that have mega churches and claim to be men of God.

Sensible and commendable. Just don't derail. Many of those guys started well too

One quote that never leaves me is this "Come now and let us reason together; declare your case that you may be justified"

Ok, the_seeker, lets reason together since you've said the Bible is corrupt and thus I can't use it to prove anything. But you too should please refrain from using the Koran to prove anything as I do not believe it:

John 20:17 - "I ascend to My Father and to your Father, My God and to your God."

[Me]: I used to play tennis at university. I remember that when we made mistakes, one could go "Oh Nuclearboy Nuclearboy, why are you playing rubbish"! *** -Substitute "Nuclearboy" for my real name. Does the above now make sense OR was I talking to someone else?

John 17:3 - "And this is eternal life, that they know You are the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

[Me]: I'm on the phone with you so you're hearing just my voice. Then you make 2 comments: 1st that my voice is hoarse and also that I should send some money. Then I say "Oh, so Nuclearboy, you need to spend some cash here on yourself and change this your funny voice". All of us have said and done many things like this. Who says its impossible for God to talk like this. Keep it in mind that Christianity asks you work out salvation through faith! If He came, destroyed the Romans, sat on a throne that floated and had angels guarding him and breaking the bones of every murmurer around, would there be the need for the faith and belief we're supposed to have?

Joh n 14:28 - Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I."

[Me]: Yes O, Where He stood, wearing flesh, the full representation would even to me seem greater. Very simply, what you are reading right now is not me in totality. I still have a voice, flesh, soul, spirit and much greater vocabulary than you're being exposed to right now. You are seeing just words that answer a particular issue. Jesus "in the flesh" and at that time was answering a particular issue. Use the allegory above OR would you say all there is to "Nuclearboy" is what you're reading? What of my other posts in say, the Auto section? Or Jokes? or my life outside of NL etc?

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[Me]: What you call most important is the simplest. Again [1] you're reading from me. Am I just Paper or in this case, your screen? Am I even ANY of those? Yet thats what you're looking at, abi? [2] I could call you and you could then also be holding a print-out of this post. At that time, you're listening to me and reading me. Am I that paper and the voice together? Yep, cause they are expressions of me. Yet not all [3] I could visit you where you'd see me, hear me and also be able to read the paper. Yet even with me standing in front of you, tell me, would you see all there is to me? Would looking at me involve you automatically knowing my intellect, background, desires, lifestyle etc? Look at either of [1] or [2] as the Jesus the Israelites saw. A Word representation!

The problem with us as humans is that we are visual . We experience 4 dimensions and agree God exceeds this. Even when you get to Heaven, do you believe you can see God and instantly know Him in totality? Why then would you just assume His Character (please do not quote a Koran I don't believe in to buttress anything) and place Him in a box, chain it locked and sit on it?

I have gone through your posts and wonder what you mean by irrefutable. Please specify what you felt was irrefutable. I hope its not what I refuted above using english that both yourself and I have used many times. Your argument against Zech 9:9 is again the kind of thing I complained about earlier - your intention is to win! Anyway, my belief, not the belief of all the people you've argued against before now is what is at stake here and this is the truth - I have never noticed the Matthew story which states "They brought the donkey and the Colt, placed their cloaks on them and Jesus sat on them". Remember that in Christianity, we do not cram and recite. Rather than be dishonest and say things like 1st He sat on one, then the other, I'll say this -

I don't know what happened there. Thats honest but doesn't mean the Bible was wrong. It is me that just cannot explain every word. In the same way, I do not know everything about Computers though I have a university degree in that Science. If I could explain all things, I'd be God!

Sense/Nonsense are illusions that we use as we wish usually to make a case for ourselves. Let me illustrate:,

Does it make sense that [1] the Arabic word for God is ILLAH yet you insist its Allah [2] That there was a allah who was a demon known as the moon-god (the moon is used for deciding some things in Islam till date), who lived inside the same Ka'abah, who had the same mode of worship (running up and down hills, wearing white and shaving heads during the pilgrimage which that demon requested from its worshippers) etc YET you today say its a different entity simply because the prophet said so? [3] that the destruction of the other 360 gods did not mean the destruction of that allah but just the substituting of one for many and that it does not mean that one is the right God? [4] that the same prophet went around telling people a demon was disturbing him yet you believe it wasn't a demon that spoke to him simply because the spirit told him it was an angel of god and knew many true things? Did you ever consider that demons are angels expelled from heaven and can do impressive things to convince their audience they are whatever they claim to be? [5] that the blessing for being a good "muslim" would be to go to heaven and have 72 wives and that there seems to be no reward for women [6] that the promise in [5] seems made to order for soldiers who feared for their lives in the many battles your prophet fought who wondered what their profit would be if they died on the battlefield. I mean, if they were going to enjoy heaven more than earth, why not quickly go and start the enjoyment. [7] that the same promise is why the suffering masses of the north and the arabic world quickly jump at jihads. I notice that no Sultan/Emir or General has blown himself up. Its only the poor guys they bring on board, spoil with unaccustomed pleasures during training/indoctrination, then explain how much more "heaven" offers and finally send off to explode. Made to order to get soldiers, wouldn't you say?

The fact that its Jesus everyone is fighting against yet try to water down tells Volumes! Why try to water down rubbish? Why not ignore it? Why hatred for anything Jesus? Consider carefully if you've never felt there was something extra joining in your rigidity about Jesus and then rationalized it off. Its me that is disappointed in you cos your not insignificant intellect should have brought up those questions prior to now. But then, you are ordered to question others but not yourself. Ask yourself why? I, on the other hand, am ordered to question EVERYTHING starting with Christianity because "if we're doing the wrong thing, na double suffer be that". The "corrupt" Bible orders that of me!

Finally, "crying Carpenter son the son": I would be ashamed to serve a God that cannot understand my limitations, sense of humor or who is bothered by inanities. Anyway, such a god would have killed most of us on NL religious section where he truly GOD!

I was on my University tennis team and when I made a stupid blunder, would go "Oh F%#K, Nuclearboy, what rubbish is this now? ? ? ?, , ".

Was I talking to another person? If I was, Jesus was talking to another person! That fulfilled a prophecy, simple!

So whats the next question aimed at discrediting Christianity? I just wonder if you can try the same against yourself? Oh, I remember: you guys are not allowed to question anything that can bring illumination to the pages of the Koran, abi? Sad!

The persecutions of the early Christians seemed to do nothing to slow them down. So Satan decided the best thing was to attack them from inside. Constantine the Roman General, was at this time campaigning against another general for control of the seat of Caesar. He was however, seriously disadvantaged militarily. One evening whist thinking about how he could survive the impending battle against his opponent, he suddenly saw in the Skies above him, the sign of a cross and the words "in hoc signo vinces" which mean, "In this Sign, Conquer"! He had his soldiers inscribe crosses in their shields and went against his opponent. In an amazing twist, he won a war in which he has been the underdog.

In "gratitude", he decided to become a "christian" and make christianity state religion. The persecutions of Christians stopped and they now seemed in control of the known world. however, it was a surface "political" christianity. It was this Christianity that brought about the ideas of Trinity, of the Pope (Bishop of rome) being God's representative on earth and introduced Christmas and Easter which prior to now, had been pagan festivals. Whist the Sun-God had being worshipped before, now they said it was the birthday of the Son-God. What relevance has the Easter Egg and bunny to the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ? They were symbols of Ishtar, the goddess of fertility who was previously worshiped. To accommodate the pagan Romans who remained relevant in the politics of the day, Constantine allowed them bring in their festivals, holidays, only changing the names.

Thus started Satans great deceptive plot to erode Christianity from within. Add to that all the other manner of battles fought by satan to discredit Christianity and the willingness of many so-called "christians" to accept cash, power and influence to help support satans battles.

Unfortunately, these things have remained till date and have become a rallying point for all opponents of Christianity who believe these things represent Christ or Christianity.

They do not!

@bountyxs:

If I may come in for Mavenbox (I hope she doesn't mind) - another allegory to the issue of 1 as 3 (some prefer to call it 3 in 1 which I believe is wrong) is the following:

[1] You are reading from me now   (Word)
[2] If I telephone you, you're hearing me (Audial)
[3] If I were to visit you, you'd see me (Physical)

But I remain the same ONE person. When you ask about one of the three dying, imagine me as it were, dropping the phone.You'd know I'm still alive (simply because you believe my dropping the phone didn't kill me) and you could still read what I wrote. So one of the three manifestations is gone but only because I dropped the phone.

I hope this helped somewhat

Great that you decided to start this thread. Unfortunately, most on NL will want to see your effort as a scam rather than the truth it is.

Its these business, political and satan sourced "christians" starting from the emperor Constantine that make it look like there are different ways to christianity and who brought in all the wrong doctrines.

But then, its only the truth that satan will do his best to discredit and thats why he has jumped head first into getting so many interpretations, designs and modes of "christianity.

Keep up the good work!

keyremotes:
We have the keys in stock.
Only about 30 minutes.
Please send your email address.

icepond69@gmail.com. Will expect to hear from you

Lord Reed:

Thanks for both posts. I'll look up wattpad.com and the insight thing is spot-on!

Niceeeee!

I think you have an inclination towards THRENON. Is that the name of your husband?

Talking of stories related to the Greek gods, have you any idea where a copy of the original "Greeks and Trojans" can be found/downloaded online?

@no2Atheism:

You must have been away for long. We have a jester/offpoint-man/long-winded-storyteller here that we renamed "voltron" since he decided he's the right person to defend the universe from what is indefensible. He prefers to call himself "olabowale".

@the_seeker:

By the way, I notice you crossing out the word "Virgin" and replacing with "young woman". Are you now saying not only is the Bible lying but the Koran also is lying? What this Jesus Guy is causing na wa O cos now, you're not even submitting to the Koran again because of Him. And Islam is submission, right?

Mohammed won Great battles, won great minds, extended his understanding of and mode of beliefs and conquered half the known world. So I see him as someone who achieved a lot and do not think it is me that should insult him. I have elders in my family and do not insult them except they ask for it. But if you ask we dig deep into his life, remember it was you that asked. He achieved more than most men ever dreamt or even wish to achieve.

Lets leave it at that! He truly was your Allahs messenger. I accept that. But I also know Jesus is Lord! and if you cannot allow me my space, think - why should I allow you yours?

@Mavenbox:

I really would like you write and allow me access to some of the info you have amazed me with here. If we were to create a thread so I get that, I suspect it would be derailed.

@Voltron:

Respect for myself includes me having respect for others. But you make it so really terribly difficult. How can you say nothing in so many words? This gift you have would be really appreciated by the demons/liars/apostates that you will now claim are on my own side. What is sad is that my beliefs require I somewhat acknowledge your being a creation of God. I assure you my inclinations do not.

@the_seeker:

Have you ever considered that my wife and children will say more of me than this? Or that you didn't even answer my question which was that YOU tell me the exact attributes YOU OR ME should wish to copy from that life? Give me words like wisdom, honesty, fairness, peacefulness, friendliness, truthfulness etc. Back them with life examples not quotations from books attributed to himself or his followers. You went to one extreme. When choosing your references, why didn't you make it fair and quote the authors who gave him a different interpretation which the thought of, would have you stick your head in the sand as you're doing now? Would that not be fair?

Have you not noticed I repeatedly call Jesus the "Crying Carpenter Son the Son"? I do that because its so funny even me has to share in that laugh. And I believe a True Loving Honest God (a true father) would Himself find such funny. It means nothing that a tortured soul and body would cry out so I proclaim it proudly. And the guy had a job - Carpenter! Construction! Honest hard humble work! Proclaim your own lets see

In short, use the same criteria against yourself, Bros! Leave insignificance out - if you were, why does your religion want you? Your own aspirations are what I asked for.

When you wonder if I would rather we keep this between me and you, I ask - did this start between me and you? But I insist there is sense, reason, some (even if faked) sincerity and definite intelligence in posts that ask for a response. Abuzola my friend, Niyi53 and now you have come my way and I have no issues with you except the desire I see to trap with words. Not so with our resident "defender". Its tough reading any of that "persons" responses to the end as I invariably forget what the point was before I get halfway. It would have been easier where he 11, or say, 9 years old. And your point of attacking from a different point makes sense. You know and acknowledge all he spewed was drivel but you can't say so openly so you point out that you'd have done differently. Brilliant! See why I respect you? But Aluta Continua, , ,

Goggle "Eli" then tell us all what it means. Its fun reading from people who say they know their "arabic" better than us THEN also say they know our own more than us too!

742BCE? I would give a lot to see how an arrival at that date makes sense!

The Jewish Torah pointed to a day when a Messiah would come and deliver the Jews. The preferred interpretation given to this by the religious leaders was that this messiah would come as a military force that would conquer the world (particularly the cruel Romans) and place Israel in a position of supremacy on the world stage. Till today, some Jews are still expecting that messiah. And that messiah was to be called "the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, etc", not a prophet of God.

It was in light of Jesus not being a soldier messiah, that the Jews preferred to reject Him. Have you ever noticed that the NT quote about them wanting His life because "He maketh Himself God yet being man"? Also that they feared his growing followership as it negated their own power?

So when you say Jesus didn't say He was God, you are not being truthful else why the above quote? Please do not start with "corrupted Bible" since it was this same Bible you quoted earlier to, (you thought) support yourself.

By the way, the "religious guys" of those days interpreted things "THEIR PREFERRED WAY", rather than God's way. But they were wrong. Seems familiar and distinctly resembling what obtains today.

@the_seeker:

The respect I have had for you drops more than a notch when you say a particular earlier "response" was adequate and has your support/respect. You were joking, right? Cos its obvious reading what you've written in your worst posts that you have more than that upstairs. I refuse to dignify such with a response and can only smile thinking you had nothing to say and so decided solidarity was in order.

But I wonder if solidarity with idiocy befits such as you with the intelligence you had earlier portrayed. Anyway, we understand you needed a means of not replying yet staying applicable.

For clarity, Alexander the Great was never revered by any man except as a great general and tactician. He said he was god but all knew that was hog-crap. With a sword to theit throats though, they said what he wanted to hear. The Pharaohs (and Ceasars) were men who knew that the divinity claim afforded them higher "powers". Their families supported them because such provided their own selves more comfort. People follow the teachings of Buddha and do not call him god. His is a way of discipleship. Sallesie had 2 lions that were so well trained they obeyed his every command. They brought him immense respect and created fear in his favor. His total aloofness to morality and ruthlessness also helped. It would be nice if you read more about him. He used the throne and history of his country as a claim that he too, was sitting on the throne of the king of kings. But he never said he was king of kings.

Why are you quoting things out of context? Again I ask, why use fallacy/lies/half-truths/etc to support your claim when all you have is a restriction of God in your mind that says "He cannot humble Himself"? Thats all you have! And its only a product of limiting God and putting Him in a box of your own making (of your own size). 

You started with Trinity. Now you no longer use the "triune" argument? Same with the "Word of God" argument. Then the OOO issue! It seems you are just throwing straws hoping one will seem rigid enough to push me down. Then it became my conscience and "Eli" which means "Ascent" not God. Now it is Alexander and heathen notions. What next?

Whatever it is, truth will prevail and I thank God many others are reading and reasoning.

NOTE: When you say your prophet would have been the greatest man-god, I wonder - what attributes of his would we be seeking to emulate? Please enumerate 5 things you (or better still, someone from another religious background) would like to do as he did then tell me 5 things Jesus did that you hate about His character. In effect, try compare

@Pastor_Aio:

I understand. What I'm saying is that it was something I heard and just quoted. Its not like I said the oracle translates into some sort of scripture or authority. I just find it funny that again, He became an object of interest for yet another religion.

Let me ask you a question - does Ifa contain references to other religions or religious personalities as well? Could you please let me have one or two of these references/quotations?

I don't know much about Ifa. I think thats obvious from the above.

Whats pertinent here is the idea - you tell me 2 people in the history of the world that the quoted could refer to. And its even more symbolic when you say the oracle predated Christianity. Anyway, you did say its ongoing so ,  ,

Added now:

@pastor_aio:

First you say Ela does not mean Deliverer and then in closing, you speak of salvation. In fact, your definitions are [a] loosen/divide/open [b] salvation and [c[ saving. Wouldn't you find this assembly contradictory where it to have come from me?

Sorry but you are wrong. 3 images do not form in my mind! You can look at God as merciful, forgiving and loving. that doesn't make him 3. In the same way, it would be nice if you just referred to my "again repeated" allegory. Look at me as [1] this note [2] a voice over the phone [3] a physical presence. Does that make me three. You're trying to find a way to get around this but there's none cos its just the truth.

When you say I read with "western goggles", you forget it comes back to you too reading with "arabian goggles". Given the chance between the US which represents the "west" and libya or afghanistan (or anywhere) representing the "arabs", I know which I prefer.

Emmanuel means "GOD WITH US", Jesus was that "God" with us and its sad you expect He would be going around with people saying "this is God with us". Amazing question there!

When you say "Eli", could you please google the name and find out what "Eli" means? Is that God? Another amazing question there!

Did you mean Isaiah 7 or 9? And if you meant 9, yep, thats Jesus there.

And while you leave me with my clear conscience, I have a poser for you - why? Whats the noise, the anger, the ranting all about? Tell us one thing He did wrong. You guys go as far as saying He died and didn't sleep for 3 days and nights. Then you say He didn't die but was exchanged for Judas. So it was Judas crying on the Cross. Then again its Jesus when the argument suits you! I have asked before and again do - what else but the truth do you think everyone tries to fault? Why? Because there's no need to fault a lie.

Whats the cost of 2 sets of transponder keys for a 2005 PathFinder? How long would installation take?