₦airaland Forum

^ Sir:

Are you not a tad too harsh on DeepSight? He never claimed any moral code, you know?

@Enigma

Are you saying "god" needs life support from you?

Seriously though, what could be more pathetic than a mix of deceit, shallowness AND cowardice?

2 people AND God make up a Church. 3,000 people worshipping their own "perceptions" and "lusts" and clapping excitedly make for entertainment. Christ has settled this argument when He said true worshipers would do so in spirit and truth rather than in any specific place.

By the way, is it just me or did others notice Pastor posted 7 questions which "cannot" be answered but were rather dodged?

Which makes me wonder - what do you call a building containing congregants led by non-christians who teach from the Bible?

@evil brain

Strange moniker you have but post #38 is absolutely brilliant. Ignoring 'talkers' but pandering to murderers, kidnappers etc has brought us here and now everyone knows and will strive to outdo themselves in savagery and cruelty since obviously, such acts 'pays' in Nigeria.

@alj_harem

Do we really have a president? I think what we have is a composite of all the things those around him say and what seems fashionable. Facebook for example, seems more important than national security

@Jesoul:


Many respects, Ma'am. I just thought to bow in fear and respect - a semi/automatic pistol in the hands of an angry woman is 

I think the Apostle was speaking to his and God's definition of the word "Christians"! That word "Christian" is the problem as it is a much abused and misapplied title.

As used by Paul, a Christian cannot be found in any of the situations you have used as an example. Fornicators (talk less of rapists) would not have been considered Christians in his day or by him. Swindlers, manipulators, pedophiles etc also would not be considered Christians at that time. That I believe, was the extent of purity of the Church that Christ left behind. Ananias and Sapphira remain a case in point showing how pure God wanted His Church to be.

With that in mind, the manner of "matter against each other" that Christians would have had in those days, would be such as disagreements likely based on misconceptions and/or inadequate knowledge of the situation. Sitting down amongst other Christians then would have clarified issues and restored love.

TODAY however, Pastors are thieves, serial liars and swindlers, murderers and criminals. To all intents and purposes therefore, the definition has changed and we see how people tell us blatantly that Ananias and Sapphira are the real Christians because they profess and "at least, they are doing something" as we see bandied on NairaLand so often. Shebi Ananias at least gave half abi (and advertised it) while you kept quiet (having followed the injunction of secrecy)?

I have always seen the Bible (and God) as dynamic. "With the Pure, I will show Myself Pure and with the Perverse, I will show Myself Perverse" is what the Word says.

IF THEY CAN GO OUTSIDE THE PURVEY OF CHRISTIANITY, THE VICTIM HAS EQUAL RIGHT TO GO TO SECULAR LAW.

@Tonye-T

Like Aletheia, I too will like to understand what you mean.

For clarity, what my post meant was that today's traditionalists say that any new movement is vagrancy. Yet how old are themselves? Can you, T-T, name one of the Pentecostal churches that can trace its way back on a "family tree" to pre-lutheran days?

80 years ago, did the RCCG exist? If when the "vision" that led to it came and it was not allowed to be birthed because it was new and therefore "wrong", would that church TODAY (I'm using this as an example) have right to try stop any new "vision" or movement today?

PS: Maybe its just me, but your use of English seems intended deliberately to confuse! Could you try to be more reader-friendly?

@m_nwankwo:

Thank you. Whist not fully convinced yet on the idea and workings of reincarnation, I must admit your presentation is very impressive & Dulcet's input plus your take again on that also were illuminating.

I look forward to such time as you decide to make plain this thing you call a "comprehensive picture of your perception of the origins of man". Knowing how you see the beginning will likely aid in understanding these things more.

Thanks again

@Pastor: 100% for that post. The traditionalists have lost it because almost none can go back even one century even if they had ALL records. Our Pentecostal movement is worst hit in this regard because most can scarcely see back 50 years.

I wonder if they ever considered that 20 to 50 years back, they too would be as they consider others today, seen as spiritual vagabonds having no "source"? Yet they arose and today ascribe to themselves legitimacy whist in turn denying others the same.

The truth remains that the disillusionment coming with large churches is not due to any hatred but simply a dismay that focus has been lost and turned away from Christ and to MOGS and standard of life. The discerning congregation member starts to wonder why Christ's suffering, humility, sacrifice, self-denial have left the pulpit and been replaced by carefully constructed anecdotes detailing 
Success, power, plenty etc.

One wonders what happened to statements like the world will hate you because it hated me,  One wonders what happened to they will kill you believing they serve God by doing so yet it is precisely the opposite.

Its amazing really, how  the sighted can be so blind. Except of course, they are not blind but needs must pretend not to see these

Pastor,

Your post above needs more information -

how many have any idea of what happened pre-lutheran? How many know what the [true] church was like under the persecution and dark ages?

How do you expect those who do not understand that the real "church" (like in the days of the Apostles) has mainly been outside of buildings to understand your questions?

Revelation 18:4 discusses the city of babylon, long considered to be the end-time church that has fallen by the wayside and has become a business. Towards her, the angel asks that those who are "God's People" should come out of her. I think that call is getting to those who truly serve God and gradually, they are coming out and returning to the type of fellowship we see in the New Testament.

We could go further to associate this with what Christ described when He said in John 4:23 :"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is Spirit and His worshipers must worship in Spirit and in truth". True Worship

therefore (at least According to Jesus) is Spiritual. So maybe we need to leave the "fake" worshipers who worship God on the basis of money and health and prosperity SINCE according to Jesus, true Worship is Spiritual. And we know that Spiritual is compared to Spiritual (1 Cor 2:13). Let those who would compare Spirit to Flesh thus beware!

Again, some would have us believe that the big churches are all there is. But at the beginning, what was the church like? And what does the Word say about how God sees Church. Mat 18:20 says: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" Which would infer that Christ/God does not discriminate in numbers.

Also, we read of churches meeting mainly in homes in the Scriptures rather than in specific buildings called churches. Rom 16:5, 1 Cor 16:19. Thus according to Scripture, its not the building but the people. Then it can be even 2 people. It is only today's business churches that insist there are specific buildings set apart where God may be found. Which brings me to my major question

- where were RCCG, Deeper life, The Methodist church & all other "houses" claiming to be the only "church" today, 2 hundred years ago? Or are we then saying the few member churches of those days sent people to damnation?

@m_nwankwo

Hello there Sir:

My problems with that response are mainly that it seem like a lot of presumption and conjecture. I am an inordinately direct person who most people find conversation with uncomfortable. However, I believe a few above such fear and you are one of these. please do not take anything as a jibe or trick question to make you look bad. Let me explain the issues of conjecture etc-

2 Million years of "seed" sowing? - how do you get that figure? Why not 200,000 years and why not 200 Billion years?

Do you believe God has a numbering/naming/recognition system for these trillions of seeds individually? Why?

What would be the eventual purpose of this seed developing into a spirit being with name and personality?

How do you get the idea that 7 reincarnations are sufficient for "original purpose"?

Considering your understanding of the fall of man, immorality, and hell, does it ever stop? I mean, it is getting worse rather than better and continues to down-slide so what next? , . i.e. The spiritual "rush-hour" idea (brilliant analogy, if I say so) would only seem to become worse and worse with more vehicles coming into rush hour till the Jam as it were, surely must come to where it can no longer be broken

Maybe its just me but can we have any sources of information and literature on these ideas?


The issue of what I saw as contradiction now totally puzzles me - if we are subject NOT only to karma based on our own actions but also to what others "accept" in our behalf, then our karma is subject also to whatever we do where others are concerned. In effect, a woman who takes a vehicle with her baby and ends up dead (with the baby) due to the drunkenness of a driver she didn't know is guilty and the poor baby's death is partly on her. But that driver (who was doing above 100km/h though otherwise innocent of the crash) is also guilty by association. Plus the other driver (if it was a crash) who crashed into them, is also guilty plus if that other driver was being pursued by police when he ran into them, then the police who were simply doing their work were also guilty.

I'm sure you now get the complication this presents (maybe its in my mind). Yet we haven't come to the crux of the matter which is that the baby now has to wait another 50 - 100 years for a reason he had no control over - how would you say this is made "just" and how would blame be apportioned. I know nobody has ALL answers but its fascinating, this just world thingy and while referred to as "just", suddenly seems totally "unjust" when a bit of thought is put to it.

Thank you again for your time

@dare2think:

1. How much do you know of the person? Presumption is wrong
2. What is the person like? i.e. antecedents. Harakiri's young woman being friendly, responsible, and a model of virtue cannot be called "loose"
3. What does the person stand to gain i.e. motive for their actions?
4. Fruit - tops the list.
a. No one "earns"his money then throws it away on frivolities.
b. No one gets "free"money who is not somewhat irresponsible spending it.
c. Light does not (CANNOT) hide & darkness refuses to reveal itself!

Pastor:

You say you've thought about the phenomenon and have an opinion on it. Could you please present this "theory" of yours especially why you say it "cannot" be denied?

M-Nwankwo has graciously responded but that thread starts to sicken me so I'd prefer not to go into a civilized conversation there. I'm hoping he'll get here at which time I may have put my thoughts together seeing as his answer presents even more questions than obtained before.

@Inesqor:

I think I need to come learn some of these your stories. I told a cousin about the king and his "almighty knows why" friend `one today and he looked at me like I was the revelation of the milky way

Tonye-T said

Like why in the world would i fret if someone gets to know me, why in the world would i want to pose with a different persona except I have an ulterior motive  Undecided. Now wouldnt that be more like hypocrisy?

Matthew Chapter 5: verses 2 - 16

" and he began to teach them.

   He said:

  3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (not those whose claim sameness with God/Christ)
  4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
  5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
  6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
  7 Blessed are the merciful,  for they will be shown mercy.  (not those who take the very food from the poor, widow and fatherless)
  8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
  9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. (Jesoul, MyJoe and deepsight (after DS gets a beating for being a lawyer))
 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (those called baby-teeth cos they want truth, mercy and justice)
  11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. (just as they did to Christ)
  12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

  13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

  14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
  15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
  16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Nowhere above do I see anything about your good "gists" and manipulation

If someone INDEED is light, why hide? Why avoid people knowing who you are and what your real life is? If indeed you are a good example (in real life) and not just talk, what's the point? If in real life, everything was above board and smelling roses, would anyone be complaining they showed them to be exactly Christ-like? ?? But I guess we all know who we truly are in real life and those who ought hide thus hide.

'nuff said!

@m-nwankwo;

Thank you for your time.

First you contradict a tenet of the Bible which says Time and chance happens to them all. But this (whist a problem for the Christian) won't be my thrust in response.

Rather, let me ask you - all souls are old and are being recycled according to your post. But this begs a question - where do they come from initially (first existence) and how come they are multiplying if indeed they are only being recycled. What was earth's population 5,000 years ago? Where did the immense difference in population spring from? Lets be sincere - 20 people being recycled over and over will NEVER become 50 people so where did our "extra" population spring from?

Your explanation of a mother not handling her responsibility enough and this being responsible for the death of her child seems to directly contradict your penultimatye post where your words attribute same death specifically to the baby's freewill. Could you pls comment on this difference between the posts

@regged4u: read it again till you get it

@Aletheia:

Seems we pay him too much attention without which his threads die as embryos

As Ogajim pointed out above, the investigation was frustrated by these MOGs. Which brings a question - why didn't they allow the investigation to show where their lavish lifestyles came from and prove their innocence if indeed they were innocent.

And then, consider - what other work do they do that could explain their income & spending habits?

Recently, Hinn and Paula White were alleged to be having an affair. There were pictures and circumstantial evidence yet you won't hear many people harming on that for lack of concrete evidence. This is how these things work - reason & evidence come together and provide a conclusion. Bottom line is - if you are clean, you won't resist an investigation

Your posts show you reason Friend.

But I want you to please give us 3 (or any number you wish) specific examples of accusation without proof. Please!

Even more interesting than them avoiding such topics as Frosbel pointed out, is the fact that any discerning student, will realize they are the legalistic party. Use your brain and they will pick a quote, set it out of context and insist that is what it means. Request that the lives of the Biblical examples be brought into reality i.e. Jesus didn't search for wealth etc and neither did Peter, Paul etc and they find quotes to support a money based "gospel".

Now if YOU then (in the spirit of Christianity, which is about Heaven) present a quote, you are then told you require "revelation knowledge" and have babyteeth,

Right now, this poster is about to learn (on some new thread here) that some truths are great and some are lesser. My pencil and 2B exercise book are ready. And so is my theology

Even more interesting than them avoiding such topics, is the fact that any discerning student, will realize they are the legalistic party. Use your brain and they will pick a quote, set it out of context and insist that is what it means. Request that the lives of the Biblical examples be brought into reality i.e. Jesus didn't search for wealth etc and neither did Peter, Paul etc and they find quotes to support a money based "gospel".

Now if YOU then (in the spirit of Christianity, which is about Heaven) present a quote, you are then told you require "revelation knowledge" and have babyteeth,

Right now, this poster is about to learn (obn the new thread) that some truths are great and some are lesser. My pencil and 2B exercise book are ready

^^ you shall know the truth & the truth shall set you free

People like you who will wonder and do personal research are rare.

The Bible praised the Berean Christians for the attitude you just displayed. Read more, find out more, ask more and you will understand that its not the poverty or frustration mentality you thought it was, that is  motivating people to ask questions and require accountability of supposed "Men of God"

@Inesqor:

Your leave of absence! Where did you spend it?

Methinks you moved to a village and spent evenings doing "alo o, Alo" with all these stories and proverbs. Abi you wish to write your own version of "the 48 laws of power"?

Ha, Finally!

Maybe I'm finally about to learn why I have so many problems with some "revelations" and "knowledges".

I too will refrain from belligerence

And in strolls the most imperfect of them all, nuclearboy!

m_nwankwo:
Hi Pastor. Yes, we have as you pointed out debated the issue. I maintain that there is nothing without a cause. To transcend causality in my view does not exist. Events that appear not to have causality only appears so but it is not real. It only appears so because observers of such an event are within the event and thus cannot see outside or beyond that event. Only the man at the top of Oshodi bridge will see the chaos below him in the mad movement of the people to and fro. He who is within this movement will not see it. Even the story of Job have its cause. [size=13pt]I believe that  what ever happens or will happen to a person is a consequence of their free will.[/size] The expressions of your free will is dependent on you but the reciprocal actions arising from them is determined by the immutable laws of God. Thus you cannot sow yam and expect beans at harvest time just because you have heard that the price of beans have suddenly skyrocketed. Neither will  you be certified a surgeon when you did not attend the training and proved your competence. As it is in these earthly matters, so is it spiritually. The implication of my stand is that God has given man the ability to raise himself to heaven or drag himself to hell. As men stir there ship of life, so will it glid through the waters of life. Grace which many think is undeserved is actually deserved; it is simply the fruitification of seeds sown in earlier or present incarnations which the recipients are unconscious of the sowing in the earthly sense. Spiritual guides see these fruits and by guidance help to bring about circumstances in which the recipients reap the fruits. Since the recipients are unaware of the these fruits as well as the guidance in an earthly sense, they conclude that it is undeserved. The same principle underlines what we regard as misfortune. Someday, the bandage will fall from there eyes and they can trace with mathematical accuracy the causalities that resulted in the grace. As always, stay blessed.

I wish to ask m_nwankwo a question:

This your "implied causality" concept - how does it explain the death of a spanking brand new baby? Or the decision of a fulani man to machete the head of a 4 day old baby? How does that fall within the "free will" of the baby?

@Enigma & Jesoul:

There is one person on this forum who is perfect. Do not dare the fates!

@DeepSight:

I plead that you continue to post BUT take some advice. You have stated that those you communicated with outside NL are those whose minds you respect - I and you have communicated. Same with PASTOR_AIO and a few others. If indeed you do "respect" our minds, permit me to ask then why you think we all are wrong saying this one thing about you. PASTOR_AIO's post above contains a "made up" conversation supposedly with you and I have ALMOST TO THE WORD replicated this same conversation as my grouse with you in the past. I remember the days when I bothered to open the Bible and really preach. You were one of those who made it become wearying as nothing could ever be said to make you drop pre-conceived notions. Which brings the question - do you really respect those minds? Or you just like our communication capabilities

In a way, I guess we all are like that but I can boast that I have 2ce apologized when I found I was wrong in this section.




The Gospel has ALWAYS brought rancor and here again, we see it at work. Christians have always been reviled, hated, persecuted and hunted for their belief system. But one thing that I challenge anyone to show me in God's Word is ONE Christian that was persecuted FOR lying or deceit or manipulation.

If indeed we follow Christ who was persecuted for telling painful truths and not minding whose Ox was gored (including the "big man" "MOG" Religious leaders of His days), I doubt if we'll be bothered by persecution.

Those who are persecuted for lies, deceit, fraud, manipulation, 419, theft, etc are criminals. No more & no less

What is patently obvious is that all snowwy etc want is to ridicule my posts or get me to show "more" so they can further demonize me as critical, unforgiving etc. Those who will learn from this entire saga have the information before them & I find no pleasure in continuing. The whole point anyway, was to show what manner of character & allegiances Pastor Joe Agbaje has. That has been made abundantly clear.


@Snowwy/newmi-double:

Me and DeepSight have come a long way but see this issues from differing perspectives. I say so (not him) but did you notice he has kept totally mute about Joagbaje's CHARACTER to be able to continue? You could almost say it is me he is supporting as in "don't soil yourself for the sake of the character involved". But you cannot see that, obviously. And even if that was not the message, I see it as that if he doesn't find it worthwhile to correct you and yours but does so with me - infers you are past redemption and are only windbags. plus DS (and even your Jo) knows I NEVER ASK FOR HELP or pity - I leave that to shallow people with a victim mentality

@DeepSight:

Yes it was messy and for me to say I went to a pastor to ask counsel shows it bothered me. But time has passed when they do whatever they wish but hang the critic thingy on us. Remember that Christ was also a critic - a critic so vociferous that people "GNASHED" their teeth and foamed from the mouth into their beards. I can just imagine the manner of yabs/truth that caused so much rancor that they killed Him. We follow that example, not civility or urbaneness

Ah, the gang is out! [size=3pt](and of course deepsight won't see them)[/size]

And dysfunctional "boys" are those who obviously felt their natural parents failed them by not heaping a pile of cash on them and thus seek surrogate "fathers" thus rejecting God.

Point here is - abuse all you want AND THEN -

show me lying
show me manipulating scripture
show me seeking a freebie whist not working
show my idolatry
etc

That is the challenge of Christianity - He who will lead must be a light

@DeepSight:

Joagbaje was caught using multiple IDs. How is my saying so an "insult"?
He said I am/was demonic - would you (a non-believer) go to your enemy? You may not like that I exposed him but did I lie?
He claimed to be a businessman making millions from paying tithes and then Kunle discovered he was actually collecting tithes. That is deceit and how is my saying so an insult?
How is me saying such people ought not stand on the pulpit as teachers an insult? Are Biblical standards not clear?

I do know I can be extremely insulting and emotional in these matters but I will NOT lie.

And we all do it, friend - which is why though I am repeatedly calling you "friend" deliberately, you have JUDGED (though you said only God can judge) me to be petty, insulting, ungentlemanly, etc. Just as the fake tries to insult a battle-hardened veteran by pointing towards my ancestry. Which cannot be compared to his obviously desperately reaching for societal acceptance manner in getting money no matter what/how.

^^ Quite and truly amazing, isn't it - that God, Christ, the Apostles and Christianity all through the ages judges those who are to lead by the standard of their lives.

But DeepSight, who is not a believer, insists that we ought leave out the individual (who is subject to our laws being a "citizen" of our kingdom) & rather, see only his argumentative/manipulative prowess. C o u r t !! !!

Btw, friend, you still haven't answered me - what do you say of satan's trials of Jesus? He too used scripture to achieve his objective, didn't he? How right was he?

One more for the road- you want me to be Christ like, yes? How Christ like then was Christ when He took a whip to defenseless people innocently going about their business in the Temple?

DS, you need to answer the questions above. This is not an argument you win with logic & rules - the Bible says the enemy goes around like a lion, seeking whom to destroy. Next time you see a mature wild lion, please give it a hug for me!

Nobody here seems to believe you are worth it, Jo! At least, reasoning people. Last time, you said I "can be" lying my head off but once threatened, you swerved off the express and into a pole.

Now again you're making noise! Basically, you want to become a martyr & your victim mentality is in 5th gear. So now I too will say what else was in the mail or paste all and people see me as a bully and you the harassed injured party, right?

YOU ARE TRULY NOT WORTH IT. Your compadre thinks I want you attention - LOL. Well, look at it this way - Christ answered His detractors every question but when they accused Him personally, He was mute. You serve Him, Ehn? So how come you see me as a detractor but answer me only when its about you? Since the Apostles thread which you scattered, you've run, hidden, avoided me and told your brace of idle followers to track me down and bother me. Why, dude, are you so afraid of your personal life known if you truly are Christian? Did Paul hide his life? Did Christ? NO, they broadcast love with their lives! Interestingly, same goes for your mentor - all manner of stories fly about him but he hides better than a thief in a forest grove.

Light is set upon a hill, isn't it? Why are yours covered with a a dirty bucket then if indeed light? It must have dawned on you that people are onto you, Take the hint - go on your knees and return to God. Its not yet too late but if you don't, remember something I told you - God does NOT share His Glory. Keep trying to share it and you'll keep falling.

^^ I did NOT edit any part of it. And by the way, why are you NOT ignoring non-Christian baby-teeth again? Sore spot?

@DeepSight:

Those who Christ took a whip to did not whip Him back. Tell your client to stop pushing me. In any case, I think its enough myself - point made with the direct address to me above (what matters is not truth but profit [to your client])

Aletheia don vex!

Seriously though, its amazing how people can turn a good thing into a bad thing all by themselves. I honestly sincerely never expected these manner of arguments from Image.

Alcohol abuse is one of the worst things possible. But where it is used in moderation, there is no manner of interpretation of the Bible that condemns it.

All attempts at such only makes the "preacher" look shallow or lying