₦airaland Forum

Hmmm. . .

I'll respond to this in a short while from now. There are some interpretations and statements I need to make clearer.

Yoruba_Omoge: Never heard of Ugbo Yoruba lol

Physics, are they culturally Yoruba?

As far as I can tell, as an outsider, yeah they are.

I heard that the Yoruba group in Anambra (I think) who clearly speak Yoruba don't consider themselves Yoruba.

I think you mean the Olukumi of Delta state. I don't know what they consider themselves to be. I guess you'd have to find some of them and ask them whether they consider themselves Yoruba or not to find out.

Ptolomeus: Dear friend.
I want to thank you especially for your dedication and seriousness.
The real reason of the forum is just that, share knowledge, be mutually enriched.

I do not speak English, so I'll have to translate and read very carefully your wonderful article. Also read the links.

But in the first instance, I gather that comes from the east, and founded . Later, Oduduwa he moved to Igbo (Ugbo-), where they the yoruba finally settle the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé. There is thus no evidence of any war Ugbo- Yoruba, but on the contrary, it is the same ethnic group.

Well what the article says is that the Ugbo Yoruba traditionally believe they were the original rulers of Ife and that their group lost power in Ife to another group through political intrigue . Then the Ugbo Yoruba moved further away, toward the ocean, where they found a new place to reside. This place is where the Ugbo Yoruba are today. On Oduduwa, they were saying in the article that he came from the east to Ife, which the Ugbo were already ruling over at the time.

To the best of my knowledge (which is limited), the idea of a war between the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba and the group that replaced them seems to come from the Yoruba story or legend of a woman named Moremi. In that account, Moremi marries the king of the "Igbo" (Ugbo) in order to discover secrets about the Ugbo which she can give to her people to help them defeat the Ugbo. In that story, the Ugbo were said to be attacking Moremi's people and were enemies with Moremi's people.

Whether there actually was a war is anyone's guess though. I don't know whether the Ugbo were actually overthrown militarily or whether they lost power in Ife by being politically outmaneuvered, and I wouldn't be able to provide any evidence in favor of either of these two options.

This makes me think about the following:
If the Yoruba of Ilé Ifé worship Orisa , and is they who are set to Ugbo-, why not Ugbo- continued worship Orisa worship and instead, takes a completely different religion.

Well, the Ugbo Yoruba traditionally do worship Orisa, to the best of my knowledge, though they seem to have some unique variants and names, such as "Umale okun"/"Malokun" rather than "Olokun" for example. The traditional religious practices of the Ugbo Yoruba seem to be similar to those of the other Yoruba groups and not a completely different religion.

Finally, as I would ask you: the original cult Obatala was Ugbo-?

Sorry, but this is something I really am unable to answer and would not know about. I don't know much about the origin of Obatala worship. You would probably need to reach out to actual experts on Yoruba history and religion to get a good answer on this.

I deeply appreciate your kind attention.
You can count on me for anything you deem necessary.
A friendly hug!
Your friend of Uruguay:

Ptolomeus

Thanks. Glad I could be of some help.

Ptolomeus: Dear friend Pleep:
I am a Uruguayan researcher. In a book of Pierre "Fatumbi" Verger, citing that the cult of Obatala had their origin in Igbo. It is also stated in that book, that Oduduwa, after the founding of Ile Ife, have begun a war against the Igbo and Obatala.
Some companions of the forum, have been illustrated about that Ife was never at war with the Igbo, that the worship of Obatala ever took place in Igbo territory ...
My question is this:
1. In what kingdom or town originated exactly the worship of Obatala
2. There are historical background of a war between that kingdom led by Obatala and Ifé?
I await your kind response, and of course thank you for your attention.

I know this is addressed to pleep, but I think I can give some insight on the relationship between Ife and the "Igbo" from what I've read from researchers/historians.

(And sorry for not responding to you in that other thread (about traditional Igbo religion), but I didn't want to prolong a discussion of an issue that was completely different from the subject of the thread.)

There are multiple accounts that I've come across that assert that the aboriginal residents/rulers of Ife were the Igbo/Ugbo subgroup of the Yoruba. As I said in that thread, the Yoruba seem to switch the letter i and u in some words, as is the case with Ife and Ufe, which refer to the same place but are sometimes called differently by different Yoruba. The Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba subgroup are part of a larger Yoruba subgroup called the Ilaje, and the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba live in the modern Ondo state of western Nigeria.

I even came across a list online a long time ago of a list of the Ugbo Yoruba rulers of Ife, but I can't seem to find the list anymore. Anyway, here is some info on the Ugbo/Igbo Yoruba and the larger Yoruba group called Ilaje to which they belong:


"While the Ilajes have a shared history because of their historical interconnectivity, I focus on the Ugbo kingdom because it is the only oil-bearing community in the area. The Ugbo Kingdom is made up of 140 communities spread across the entire kingdom. The Ilajes occupy more than two thirds of the coastal belt in Ondo state and their major occupation is fishing. There are sixteen quarters in Ugbo, each representing a family, which is why they are referred to as Ejinedogun (“sixteen”) in the local dialect. Senior chiefs are called Dosun, and they constitute Olugbo-in-council, the highest decision- making body of the kingdom which is presided over by the king. These Ilaje communities view the Atlantic Ocean as significant for both its role as a source of income and also as an omen of one of the most important rituals of the Ilajes." - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"


"Imagining the “Wealthland”: Myth, Memory, and Divine Power

As this paper shows, the Ugbo1 people consider themselves to be the “original” inhabitants of Ile-Ife who were driven out as a result of interplay of power, political manipulation, and family disputes. The Ugbos interpret their loss of Ile-Ife as divine because their ancestors had promised an abundance of wealth. It is the realization of this divine promise by their ancestors that made the Ugbos embark on a journey in search of a particular “sign” that promises and manifest wealth. As many community members told me, this particular “sign” manifested itself when they migrated to what is today known as the Ugbo kingdom. The Atlantic Ocean, huge oil reserves, and other natural resources in this region today represent the manifestation of this sign. This section maps the Ugbos’ divinely ordained journey from Ile-Ife to the present location of the Ilaje people. I examine how this “sign” of wealth manifested itself, who led the Ugbos to their present location, and how this myth translates into a form of memory and divine knowledge for the Ugbo people." - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"



"Popular folk songs and divination are two key ways that Ugbo’s legitimize their claim of ownership to the area’s land, ocean, and natural resources. Popular folk songs serve as a daily legitimization of ownership claims. One such example is the tibe karufe, ule ti Oronmaken which literally means “From here (from Ugbo Kingdom) to Ile-Ife (the cradle of Yorùbá civilization), all land belongs to Oronmaken the founder of Ugbo Kingdom”. As Oba Mafimisebi explained, “The Oduduwa group migrated from the east and met the Ugbos at Ile-Ife. It took Oduduwa and his group of migrants almost fifteen years to learn our language and adapt to our culture.”

Other folk songs reinforce how Ugbo narratives privilege the abundance of oil and other natural resource in the area. One song goes thus: “tibe karufe, ule toronmaken” (“From here to Ife, all land belongs to Oronmaken”). This song precedes all traditional prayers, festivals, and meetings and is akin to starting a Christian prayer with the words “In the name of the Father…”. During the period that I stayed in Ilaje, I often saw elders and chiefs sing this folk song at the beginning of an important meeting or when receiving visitors.

Ifa divination is central to the ways in which Ilaje narrative of belonging shapes claims of resource ownership. Ifa, a system of divination traditional to the Yorùbá people of Southwest Nigeria, represents one Ugbo ritual that predates the arrival of the Oduduwa group at Ile-Ife and supports Ugbos’ claim not only to ownership of land and natural resources but also to Ile-Ife itself. - Omolade Adunbi (University of Michigan), "Mythic Oil: Resources, Belonging, and the Politics of Claim-Making Among The Ilaje Yorùbás of Nigeria"


You can download the entire article here (or you can search for the article on google and view it through google docs):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CGMQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsitemaker.umich.edu%2Fethnicity_workshop%2Ffiles%2F%2520Adunbi.doc&ei=P0sIULL-KoOG2gWGoN3TBA&usg=AFQjCNEiMyGUFLmG6jxXWT6nIZHCN8ScHg


Here's an excerpt from another article (although the main focus of this article is about dance):

"Who are the Ilaje?

The name Ilaje refers to several sets of meaning that conjures the same identity. First, we refer to a Yoruba dialect, which according to Curwen (1937), is a jointly adopted language by the peoples of Mahin, Ugbo, Etikan and Ahere kingdoms of the then Okitipupa divisions of the Western Region of Nigeria. This view was further corroborated by the likes of Akinjogbin (2002), Smith (1988) and Atanda (1980) to mention just a few.

Curwen (1937:6-7) further hinted that the word Ilaje might in fact have been derived from the name of a certain sacred Oro-staff, which Oni Oghoduwa Oronmaken (of Ife) gave to Oronmaken (of Ugbo) his alleged son. Thus, it is believed in some Ilaje quarters that the decision to bear Ilaje was born out of the quest to show their submissions and belief in that totemic staff of unity as a symbol of their belief, worship and submission to the powers epitomised by the sacred ‘Ilaje-staff’ from Oghoduwa, This accounts more or less in the mandatory holding of horse whisks by people that are said to be representing the Ilaje people at any given time, the king and/ or the dancers in most of the dance cultures of the Ilajes. The horse whisk is a symbol of the Opa Ilaje (Ilaje staff) and being in possession of it is like being in a position to enjoy all sorts of privileges in the land. It grants one, immunity of a kind, as long as the bearer(s) hold on to the horse whisk.

Another strong view is that Ilaje means the “land of paddle” as it is best to pronounce it “Ile-Aje”, where ‘Ile’ refers to land and ‘Aje’ implies paddle. Largely, it becomes rather impossible to fault most of these claims as they are all being linked to the ecological, geographical and cultural factors that characterise or define the Ilajes’ places of abode. This brings us to a third meaning of the word Ilaje, which according to Curwen is literally translated to be “we have riches and enjoy them” (Curwen 1937:5). Putting it across in a more direct order, Egboworomo (1999:29) sees it as implying “enjoying ones riches”.

Though they are widely travelled and largely scattered, the Ilajes are a people who do not take their root with levity (Egboworomo 1999:52). Besides this is an ethnic group that can be considered ‘ethno-aquatic’1 in nature as they are mostly found living in the extreme south of Ondo state, Nigeria, which is an area considered to be of creeks and rain forests. The people’s civilisations, political structures, economy, history, traditions and cultural projections are seen as cultural identities, which hitherto, are tailored and conditioned by the aquatic nature of their geographical environment." - Felix Damilola Emoruwa (University of Ilorin), "Form and Meaning in "Biripo" Dance of the Ilaje in Ondo State"

Here's the entire article (it's the second article, below the article on dance and theater and it's titled 'Form and Meaning in "Biripo" Dance of the Ilaje in Ondo State'):

http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/publications/emoruwafd/danceandlight.htm

I don't understand how people are insinuating that the Fulani (in this case, one man) are probably victims based on pure conjecture about what was done to them, but haven't engaged in the same amount of speculation about what they may have done to others. Unless one has real details about what started this directly from the police officers that resolved the dispute, people are just going off of wild speculation.

shymmex: So, the Igala Kingdom whooped Benin lol...

All hail Igala people!!

Nah, didn't happen bro.

They don't understand the mask dispersion thing. I didn't want to comment on it beyond what I posted above because I respect the significance of the Igala kingdom in precolonial history and don't want "Benin controversies" to distort or disrupt a potentially enlightening thread.

It's kind of a smart thing to do actually. If somebody sent a piece of regalia to a defeated kingdom as a symbol of the political suzerainty of the victorious state over them, it would be smart to later say it was captured from the enemy in battle instead. I might even do the same thing.

[Of course there are some people who claim that the mask actually corroborates other claims about the Igala monarchy's - or at least one of the dynasties' - origin from a certain place, but I don't want to get into that discussion either as that would sidetrack the thread as well.]

SmoothCrim: Listen we are all West African brothers

Yeah, ok. Whatever, Bill Cartwright.

I did not even know what black Planet is but, now I know it is a dating site and I am sure you use it. It shows just how bad your personal and dating life may be.

lmao!

This is rich. As if I use dating sites.

Stick to the topic from now on.

@ the topic, I agree that they should pay whatever the law requires of them and abide by the laws there if they want to stay in business there.

Anyway, I'm done with the thread.

SmoothCrim: you are so dumb boko!!

That site just puts searches together but, does not pin point it. His email is obviously NOT the one you searched or, I would be him

Maybe you should pay for the membership at Spokeo to figure that out!!!

you are very very creepy and I know I hurt your feelings very badly now. I may tone down my trolling because, I feel bad now

Man are you slow or something?

I didn't say he had your email address! His email is obviously different since I've already seen confirmation that your email is real and linked to your nairaland account because of when you tried to contact me.

I said I thought you took the name of your email address and your fake name from his online profile on that dating site because you're a creep. I see that it was a coincidence caused by the search, but I wasn't ruling anything out as a possibility when dealing with a creep though.

SmoothCrim: You call me creepy but, you are looking up random accounts on a site I did not even know existed trying to figure out who I am!!


You creepy criminal!!!

You tried to contact me personally. I just googled the yahoo email and spokeo (a site I didn't even know existed until now) came up. With one search of the email I saw the pic and the reference to other profiles.

You're the troll, and the one trying to contact people by email and you're talking about creeps. Man getthefuckouttaherewiththatnoiseson

SmoothCrim: Is that guys name Fred Cartwright??

Prove it!!If that is the case then, I am shocked by the coincidence!!!! EHH WOW!!

Yeah

http://www.spokeo.com/email-search/search?e=presario84@yahoo.com&s10=t30

SmoothCrim: I am not a 419 criminal like you. I don't take peoples identity.

The only loser is a physics nerd with an inferiority complex who can't debate properly!!! How many of you Boko's do I have to disgrace??

lol, c'mon son

As if I was supposed to believe that there was a guy who happened to use the exact same name (Fred Cartwright) and the same other name (presario84) as you. Yeah right. I don't know what you do, but it can't be anything important since you have time to troll another country's forum. Probably, you're a receptionist somewhere.

Now go watch some espn classic and learn the names of other great NBA players before you come back here and embarrass yourself with fake names. "Fred Cartwright"

SmoothCrim: Creepy!! And that guy is obviously African American. Something I am not. Presario is a computer though so, I guess the one in a 1000 chance is possible

Boko, you investigate like you read history... Can't think beyond your nose!!!

Yeah, presario is a computer, I used to own one (a compaq presario) way way back. But the exact name correspondence is what made it look like a connection to me. That couldn't just be explained by the computer reference. I figured you took the guy's name and profile name for your troll account because you're a creep and a loser and it's just something you would do. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and write it off as a coincidence though.