₦airaland Forum

matured:
The big question is what will you do? IF IT WAS YOU.

I know it is not easy, but I definitely will return everything I ever stole from my (former) boss.

Thank you, donnie, for helping with that balance. And Cayon, I enjoyed your input as well.

However, just a few remarks I would like to make at this point on the following idea:

Faith isn't something you study and then gain the knowledge.

Actually, some people come to the Christian faith by a careful study of its core teachings. Although I can relate to what you might have intended to say, yet I can testify that it was partly and hugely by studying that I left my former religion and embraced the faith that is in Jesus Christ.

What makes people "study" the faith?

Simply because they have questions. You know, one of the most profound things that struck me when I began studying the Christian faith is the remarkable freedom in Christ that believers enjoy. In my former faith, we were not so free to ask questions; the belief was that you cannot question the things of god and therefore you simply "obey". However, not only did I come to enjoy that freedom, it was a thrill to see that there were sound answers to most of the questions that had stewed up in my heart.

Does intellectual exercise alone bring one to faith?

No, because that is where a lot of people arrive at diverse conclusions (most often extreme, incoherent and unhealthy). Intellectual study alone did not bring me to have faith in Jesus Christ. I was willing to be radically honest to deal with my prejudices formerly held against the Bible. Would the Bible deliver its promises if I obeyed what it taught? Well, I did - and also experienced the power it promised! That is beyond mere intellectual exercise.

So, how do we start to "fight" the good fight?

I recommend this: anyone who would enjoy the benefits of this kind of fight should be willing enough to radically defeat their own prejudices. That is where the fight begins - in your own heart. I'm persuaded that many people take a default stance against the Bible before they even read it - and that is where they lose the battle. Nothing can be as dangerously self-defeating as to be callously misrepresenting the convictions of other people. Let me elaborate.

When we engage in any spirited and deeply affecting issue, we should be willing to be as simple, cordial and honest. It doesn't matter whether we are dealing with people of other worldviews apart from our own - the point is this: conquer your own prejudices against other people first and foremost, then your struggles will be richly rewarded. Just think of all my wasted years arguing against Christians: how did it happen? Because I already hated them and was "delighted" to make many false assertions against the Biblical faith - afterall, everyone was doing it, and it was the easiest thing in the world to do! But what did I gain personally? Absolutely nothing other than a stupid pride and false sense of accomplishments!

But thank God who helped me overcome my own internal prejudices first! This is where the fight begins - to remove my own log first before trying to correct anyone else! Next step, was to seek to approach life (real life) with an honest heart (Luke 8:15 - "an honest and good heart". I cannot hope to benefit myself as long as my own false prejudices are treasured in my heart, otherwise it remains an "ugly fight".

The good fight is not a selfish engagement. It lays hold on eternal life, and as such is not interested in rationalizing contrary lifestyles. I believe the Bible teaches that the "good fight" is an intelligent one: it was not formulated to make zombies out of anyone. Christians are called to be intelligent people - but such intelligence is nothing without the help of the Spirit.

God bless.

By the way, littleb, you will notice that up until now I've only been fielding questions and accusations from muslims and answering them. I have not sought to descend so low in my attitude of making false claims against the teachings of the prophets (eg., not at any time did I accuse the prophets of teaching "sexual intercourse" when they spoke of the covenant Israel had with God).

Anyhow, having come this far, I have a simple question for you if you may be kind enough to answer it. It appertains to the claim by Muslims that the Quran is the most scientifically accurate book among all. I'm not seeking to get embroiled in any prolonged argument; but after all the accusations against the Bible have been made, please leave those aside and let me know if you can answer just this one question for me. Please. I only have one question about your own defence of that book, so please kindly let me know if and when you may oblige me.

Thank you.

@littleb,

Making these kind of rhetorical noise is not the same thing as establishing a strong case for the Quran. I have discussed with many muslims on and off this forum and can excuse the fact you're new here and excited about nothing. You may be profoundly disturbed about your musings, but one can understand why answers to muslim assertions are being deleted - and I only pointed that out to wonder why such a thing should occur at all.

Rather than be so restless to "prove" your god is right, why don't you take a hike and enjoy what you miss in the muslim section? Filling pages with complaints does not demonstrate that you're intellgent enough to hold a rational and senisble discourse, and I wonder why the only thing you guys remain at is the busstop of accusations. What is really biting you?

Anyhow,

littleb:
Olaadegbu never find out the meaning of infallible before he created the thread, and he came up with his first post, full of irrelevance. What the arguement! you need only a single statement to know that this "compilations" never revealed from Almighty GOD rather human deceptions from the many unkown men called "inspired men", according to pilgrim.1. Now, pilgrim.1 is afraid of his post being deleted by answers most of the questions.

Lol. . . I have never been afraid of answers being deleted. That should demonstrate that those who read it and deleted them were not comfortable with them, and I have not seen clear pointers to counter what I stated earlier.

littleb:
Well, your reasons for economising such truth is known, however, negate the obligation of divinity if you are truthful.

I have done so and I'm not in the business of recycled arguments. The one thing that disgusts me in discussing with Muslims is the obvious duplicity that is ever repeated endlessly.

littleb:
Without reasonable doubt, I ve seen that mankind have been greatly deceived, most especially on the religious aspect.

Thanks for noticing - I was deceived in Islam, I saw it, and I left. Any further questions?

littleb:
With my own studies, which I believe could be similar to many great scholars of the world, is the concept behind Bible being the undisputed word of God. It is very amazing that many people have sink into this dogmatic belief in the context of scriptures, yet the teachings therein cannot be put into practice.

Study well and you will find that many Muslims around the world are the ones who deliberately contradict their own Quran with their disobedience. Nothing new there, so trying to levy this accusation always against Christians only further confirms why I cannot trust muslim apologists.

littleb:
The major insult to the God almighty.

I wonder why you guys never realize how much you practise that very thing.

littleb:
Hmm, I think i ve done my own part as God ordained me. Yours is yours and mine is mine.

Is that not the very thing I have always hinted at - that Muslims confess that they never worship the same God as Jews and Christians? Why then does the Quran claim that it does? Can you tell me that insulting and disrespecting the convictions of other people with your accusations is what God ordained you to do?

littleb:
prolonging arguement will never yeild any positive image rather dwelling in sins by parabolating on a single question and justification by inventing more lies.

Nothing new - I've seen the many invented lies from your brethren against the teachings of the prophets; I've always pointed out that such an attitude is a serious issue even in Islam.

littleb:
Well, all being equal. There are news on narialand, kindly spread the news![size=12pt][/size]

We have done so.

littleb:
" woe to those who write the book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah(God)," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby."

Please allow me to laugh here. Was the Quran not written by human hands? Do Muslims not regard such human-written documents as "from Allah"? And is the Quran not on sale for purchase in the market? So if this complaint has any substance, I'm sorry to observe that the "woe" applies where it belongs - to those selling the Quran.

littleb:
can anybody say Amen?

I cannot say "amen" to your woes. That is why I invite you guys to stay long enough to enjoy the love of Jesus Christ. Blessings to you, rather than woe!

Enjoy.

littleb:
Hmm, you know, much lies could be formulaed when people are trying to secure an unjustifiable.

That's true on both sides as well as many non-religious discussions. You can always count on me to show you irrefutable evidence for whatever I state about Islam.

littleb:
"And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything;

This is the thing that we have to get at - whether or not Muhammad received inspiration. Only recently did our esteemed alhaji hint that a revelation of denials was given to Muhammad: what could I do with such an answer?

littleb:
and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed." And if you could but see when the wrong-doers are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your soul! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His signs (revelations) with disrespect!"
(The Holy Quran, Al-Anam, 6:93)"

It's not my style to be disrespectful to anyone's convictions - whether religious or non-religious. I wonder why many Muslims I discuss with are the first to show disdain for the faith and convictions of other people and then run to quote Al-Anam, 6:93. I wonder if it is the birthright of Islam to disrespect others but assume that such an attitude should never be questioned.

littleb:
@pilgrim,
In sha Allah, I will try as much to go through your posts and responded to the worthy ones. I think you know our differences. You never bilief in Muhammad?

I used to believe in Muhammad and the Quran. I already explained why I left Islam, no disrespect intended.

littleb:
So, lakun dinikun waliyadin. If you claim Muhammad formulated lies and copied bible to produce such a wonderful book called Quran.

I don't remember making such a claim. What I do know for a fact is that his revelations were formulated deliberately against the Biblical prophets, and I cannot tolerate his seething hatred against Jews and Christians.

littleb:
Haa! for being unlettered, at least he tried. What if he was a Phd?

There are many magnificient pieces of literature that are ascribed to unlettered men. So this excuse for the Quran is now outdated.

Shalom.

Hi littleb,

I would have left just a single line of response; but it's necessary at this stage to set a few issues straight as a preamble to your further discourses.

littleb:
The discussion have been quite interesting. It's unfortunate I have been out for a while. As far as bible is concern, I can see I am getting some facts from pilgrim.1 which I believe he will not reverse her statement.

I do hope for your sake that you understood the said "facts" and not assume to misinterprete them.

littleb:
Nevertheless, she would always struggle hard to justify bible is still infallible, which I belief such impression is publicily falacious.

Lol, I don't struggle hard to justify anything - that is what we used to do as Muslims who often make every effort justify everything in the Quran rather than let it speak for itself. My experience in seeking to find a coherence in the Quran led me to read and study the Bible. The conviction thereof is what led me to believe what it teaches.

littleb:
Even, to many christians belivers, bible is mixed with some doctored God's prophetic messages plus many stories from many unknown writers.

Thanks for the compliments, but we have heard all such kinds of accusations forever. Yet, a godly person would appreciate the fact that the prophecies of the Biblical prophets stand established on their own - and no one has to run to the Quran for support to understand them. How many prophecies in comparison are given in the Quran that would stand on their own without running to the Bible for support?

littleb:
The expostion of bible within itself revealed clearly that it is the work of men which is either a guess work or one relating to another third party information. thus full of errors.

And yet those are the same scriptures which the Quran said allah sent down, revealed and also came to confirm? Your logic is so weak, because as many times as you trump up this fallacies, you would unwittingly be making a weaker case for the Quran.

littleb:
How could someone now raise out his/her voice loud to prove bible is infallible God's word. Undoubtedly, the messages therein mixed with some positive moral teaching with many incoherence logics.

This is the greatest mistake you can make when reading the Bible. The Biblical prophecies and teaching are not about logic - and that is why my Muslim friends have often failed to grasp its message. On the other hand, it's quite funny that many Muslims try to argue the veracity of the Quran on the basis of logic. Dear littleb, I would be all too glad to waste your presumptions if you make the mistake of arguing logic with me.

littleb:
If we are to question a bible believer about many subjects and he/she is to provide an answers according to what God says in his book, bilief me, never will you find a definte answers from them,

Well, if you have made up your mind about that already, good luck. I haven't seen muslims who have sensibly defended the Quran in simple questions I have offered. Instead, the default response has always been to evade questions about the Quran and then seek to ask 1000 questions against the Bible - usually also running to websites to plagiarize materials and pretend them as their own.

littleb:
rather their own cynical judgement differ from one another, many evidences have shown in this forum.

Haven't we seen how many muslims actually contradict themselves on the Forum? So what is your question or argument again?

Hi Olabowale,

olabowale:
If I have a daughter she will be in your age bracket! I think your Bible is not allowing you to think straight.

Okay, I don hear finish.

olabowale:
At least between you and me, there will be 20 years. Omode o le lasho titi, ko lakisa to agbalagba. Between you I am the Agbalagba, and I must have rags more than you!

E seun.

olabowale:
Alhamdulillah! God has decreed what He had decreed! Aponle ni mala, , ! You know the rest. I am not restless because of you, if I were, at all. What you do is for your own benefit! I have no direct gain, except that I thank God for any good you do, if the news of it reaches me!

Thank God, I hear.

olabowale:
Please take a rest! While you are telling us that you left islam for utterly silly reasons, its surprising that you find yourself in a religion that the same thing you complain that most muslims think about, which is natural to think about things that are humanly, most christians do at the role of a dice!

Thank you again. Silly reasons or not, I'm glad I left Islam.

olabowale:
Finally, its interesting that you said there are ahadiths which talk about human being created in the image of God. Please show us ahadith where you get any idea that God and man have the same form, handseye, legs, turso, head, hair, beard, teeth, etc! How do you figure if you can't that Jesus is God then, especially when the Qur'an contains may verses talking about the uniqueness of God, etc?

Alhaji agba, e da kun! I'm not the writer of the ahadiths, and unless you want to deeply convince readers that your knowledge therein is shalow, it must be very queer that you of all people never came across the passage where Muhammad said that Allah created Adam in his image?!? I simply hint you about them - what's my worry if you're hell-bent on denying everything that you don't like, even though they are verily contained in Islamic texts?

olabowale:
Anyway, since you can't argue with proof(s), I will not pay too much attention to your statements because they will just be without substance.

Dream tall. Have I not given enough proof already to deflate your wrong and untennable assertions? Make I name them again? Who was it that asserted that Muslims never referred to Muhammad as "Lord"? Did I not give clear evidence even from the Islamic Supreme Council of America? Who was it that was claiming a while back that Muslims do not worship at the shrine of their prophets? Did I not give evidence to dispell that myth with clear pictures to show the tombs inside the many mosques around the world?

It is okay to say that you won't pay attention because you believe that I have no evidence. You must be a very interesting fellow to circumvent the obvious.

olabowale:
Interestingly, the mother tongue of Muhammad (AS) is Arabic. If the Bible translator did such a poor job in translating it to Arabic language, we will see that the accusation levelled on Muhammad, as using the bible to produce the Bible is inconceivable, at best! And when one observe how superior and different in details to the Bible, the common story that they share, we will have to declare the Christian accusers and their accusation broke the rule of truth telling!

Hohohohahaha!! We have been through this before - and you're the only one on nairaland that I read who hinted that Muhammad received a revelation of denial. How I wish that quote of yours was never deleted! But I'm satisfied you already said so, and it is hardly surprising to me.

Remain blessed in Jesus Name.

Hi Olabowale,

olabowale:
Dont hyperventilate! Never did I or any muslim say that Jesus, or Moses or any other prophet (AS), doctored statement! You need to read entries before you post any response!

Lol. . . I was not hyperventilating, and your remarks only indicate to me that you didn't catch the gist. You wanted to find passages in the Bible where Jesus might have said that He was God - and my response was for your to show where He actually said He was not God. If you cannot find your own doctored statements in the Bible, be sure you won't find the other either. The bottomline was that the Muslim denial of the deity of Jesus Christ is simply that: a denial.

olabowale:
We say that the "Ispired Bible Writers", who are the people who you christians wrote your Bible, changed, okay, doctored whatever was originally the constructs of the "Messengers and or Prophets!" I believe you should with this get the gist, without trying to twist my statements.

I did not twist anything, dear sir. I quoted your direct statement where you said that the inspired writers could not be trusted 100%. My response was direct in consonance with your Quran to the point that Muhammad could not then be trusted, afterall he also is purported to have been inspired in exactly the way the Biblical prophets were inspired. You cannot play this carrot stick of repudiating the Biblical prophets and hope to put a cosmetic career on the prophet of Islam.

olabowale:
Its your Bible writers, who were filled with the wrong inspiration, unless you are now saying that Jesus (AS) is a writer of any or all the gospels!

The same Bible writers were respected by Allah in the Quran. The dilemma for Muslims is that they find their own position and accusations untennable - and that is why they hope to dribble round the veracity of the Biblical prophets.

olabowale:
How many years did you spend being a muslim?

Longer than you cared.

olabowale:
And how many years you are not a christian?

For all the years I heard the deliberately caliberated duplicity from the mullahs.

olabowale:
Please add both of them together. After that multiply your answer by two.

You are a wonderful mathematician! However, Islamic arithmetics do not interest me anymore. Is it not the Quran that speaks of two Easts and two Wests? Even a kid knows there's only one of each. Thank you for the maths lesson anyhow.

olabowale:
What ever tou now have may just be around my age!

I hear.

olabowale:
All of my age I have spent it in Islam! How could you have been where you thing am struggling with!

Have you started this age-long "seniority" saga again? Oh bother! You're a very interesting elderly elder!

Present sir! I be she O! And I admire everyone's intelligence as well.

Thank you, bawomolo. . a voice of reason. Please keep up the good sense in all area of your endeavour.

God bless all of you for your wise answers.

JeSoul:
Thank God for this development. We shall all continue to remember not only her, but you also brotha, that God will bless and keep you and comfort your heart as you trust in Him. It is well with Bisi.

Halleluyah. Amen.

Lol. . . @Chrisbenogor,

I should have anticipated you. . . infact I did, but wasn't quite sure. Oops! I spilled the beans. True, there are many things we don't understand, but hmmm. . . my muslim friends believe they understand everything - as far as only the Quran makes them believe so! If asked certain questions about the same Quran, you no go see them again! Next you know, the thread will disappear! Interesting world we live in.

Anyhow, I'll just let him blow hot and cold. . . and anytime I have the fortune of reading your piece, I might be stimulated enough to make some contributions.

Enjoy.

@AIO,

Pastor AIO:
I wonder when you guys are actually going to present an argument as to why the other is wrong and you are right, rather than just dissing each other and hurling insults. It's all rather boring, I feel.

I apologise, but if you notice I made clear that my reposte was not directed to put reindeer on spotlight; just that in general we often hear the same recycled statement made again and again where people who spout them really haven't taken the time to examine the real issues. When I replied thus, I was online (Yahoo IM) and discussing with an atheist friend who at that time just posted about the same time. I asked him to carefully retrace his steps to his "highpriest" (Dawkins) and understand that when the latter made that inference, he actually argued to say that all "real scientists" are atheists! The crap - that idea has been largely rejected even by many intelligent atheists around the world! The one thing we can agree on (as someone has said) is that atheism is not science!

Anyhow, I appreciate your contribution above. However, I'm a bit concerned that while the general idea is carried, people who read with a critical mind might mistake your inference. Let me give a few examples:

Pastor AIO:
And I also resent the way the word Rationalism is used. I think they should use the word Naturalism because that is really what they are advocating. Naturalism says that there is no supernatural world and that everything can be explained by natural forces.

Well, I think Rationalism is precisely the very same thing as Naturalism. Perhaps what you had in mind for the distinction was rather "Rationality" (as against "Rational[b]ism[/b]". The difference could be as outlined below:

(a) rationality - 'the state of having good sense and sound judgment'

(b) Rationalism - '(philosophy) the doctrine that knowledge is acquired by reason without resort to experience'; also 'the theological doctrine that human reason rather than divine revelation establishes religious truth'.

(c) Naturalism - "(philosophy) the doctrine that the world can be understood in scientific terms without recourse to spiritual or supernatural explanations"

You can see that both (b) and (c) are closely linked, and are together different from (a) above.

While it's my position that Christianity is not to be misconstrued for "rationalism", I yet maintain that we are called upon to engage our rational faculties (ie., our reasoning, mental, and intellectual faculties). Does the Biblical faith involve "reasoning"? I believe Isaiah makes the point in stating this: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD" (Isaiah 1:18 ). However, the Biblical faith is not a matter of "rationality", because it is based on divine revelation and supernatural explanations.

The real world we live in cannot simply be explained coherently only on naturalistic terms. Often times, naturalism is unable to qualify the "supernatural" occurences which we know exist in our perception of the real world; thus, we have to learn to appreciate them in their other causes (ie., "super-natural" causes).

Chrisbenogor:
@olabowole
I have been reading your posts(although they are sometimes too long) and decided to ask you a few questions,
Do you believe in heaven and hell?
Where is heaven and where is hell?
We know when we die our flesh decays and even our bones with time, so explain to me in what form we would be when we are brought back to life, and where we would be.
Why did God create adam and eve as whole and then other human beings even animals and plants have to go through a gestation period?
Why is there life only on earth?
What is the purpose of other planets?
How old is the earth according to the quaran?
Please try and stick to the questions

Hi Chris, may I request that you take this to another thread, please. I've enjoyed discussing with you sanely and may not be inclined to keep track here if this thread loses its focus. Thanks.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
Am shocked to read that is it has been declared on entry #34, see above, entered in today at 11.12.30am, that the translators of the Bible into Arabic, as far as they know, did a poor Job at it! Then how did we develop the spirit of accusation, that Muhammad copied the Bible?! The truth being revealed, gradually!

You need not be shocked - to be shocked would only be because you're reading issues the backside up!  Anyhow, I maintain that the translators of the Arabic Bible (the ones I know) did a poor job - but please note that I said "translators". In translating the Bible, it does not mean that the message is therefore affected from its original - because how would I be competent to state that a translated piece is poor? Is it not by looking at what it was translated from?

In the same way, many of the translations of the Quran into English are grossly inaccurate. Notice again, I said "translations of the Quran". . . so if you are shocked in the case of the Bible, then you should also be shocked at the truth revealed about this scenario on the Quran. We have been on this subject before (here, here and also here). Anyone who reads through that thread will see the point, so you shock measure is a mute case.

olabowale:
Sure the Christians do, with Jesus being a full god, and holy ghost being a full god, too and father god being another full god, is there any doubt that there is no 3godhead here?!

Again, we have dealt with this before, and I have clearly distingusihed between tritheism and trinity - they are not the same. To be stubbornly insisting they are the same is not a good sign of intelligence.

olabowale:
A muslim person, male or female, would never leave islam and go to Christianity, which oozes with full disbeliever!

I am not the first person to have left Islam and converted to Christianity; and many millions more are also leaving Islam as they realize the same duplicity I discovered. I don't have a quarrel with any Muslim, but you can accuse them as will "bellefull" you, I just love the people - and I love you as well in Jesus Christ!

olabowale:
To say that Jesus was not god is a lie?

I asked you to simply show where Jesus made your doctored statement, did you? Instead of recycling your arguments where I have dealt with them before, I simply ask you to refer to the relevant threads - its not my style to act like a broken record the way you do and keep recycling issues.

Lol. . . Olabowale, I've been where you are still struggling with, I accused Christianity of many untrue things. But today? I'm not the one who is restless, so I'll just leave you with the same problem and rather ask you to stay long enough to enjoy the fellowship you lack in Islam.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:
So I guess fundamentally both sides believe in God but differ on the ways of God, this is the very foundation of religious conflict and those who do not believe in God are saying why all the confusion?

Another intelligent and legitimate question (that is why I find it easier discussing with you than many of my "rationalists" friends). Anyhow, it is true that there are conflicts between religions - high tension wires are laid in the minefields criss-crossing all religious persuasions. But again, where indeed has there ever been a concensus in other worldviews. Let me explain.

We know that atheists are not all agreed as to the definition of the term "atheism". Today, some have whipped up this notion that "athiesm is simply the lack of belief". Rubbish! Those who are stating such are cleverly dancing with rotten carrots ^{(no injuries meant to anyone reading this - I'm speaking to chrisbenogor).} The point is that whatever definition is given to atheism by atheists themselves, we all know that they are not all agreed upon what is involved therein!

What about politics? Have we not had evidence upon evidence of internal ranglings in political parties? The case of the Republicans and the Democrats inthe US serves us as ready examples.

And now science. Even among evolutionary biologists who are atheists, we know they can be bitterly opposed sometimes - as was the case between Richard Dawkins and late Stephen J Gould. What (in my small understanding) was the stone in the shoe between them is this: they had the same set of data, but they interpret those data differently!

I'm no scientist; but I have studied science to a critical level. . . until my professors in class set us striaght that one cannot be regarded as properly understanding the gist of science until he/she studies "the philosophy of science". Phew! I have failed that class twice already. . . and only recently did I ace my exams in that.

So in religion. I don't waste my time trying to discredit all the religions of the world - that is not what I am called to do. I'm rather called to live coherently with my faith, share that faith with others, and promote the wellbeing of my generation in consonance with the revealed glory of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. That is what I am called to do - and though I do not always articulate this by experience, the endurance attending my tutelage has helped me to see that philosophically, apologetics makes it easier for me to see this kind of discussion as a matter of "religion and science properly understood" and not "religion against science".

I hope thus far I've communicated something worthwhile to you? 

Chrisbenogor:
For the first time here on nairaland let me tell you what I believe or rather what my comfort zone is. I believe in evolution and I believe there could be God, but I just believe that no religion is representing God the way he really is(no offence meant there ). But even this belief is filled with many questions on its own, I have witnessed evil and charms being done and I have also seen miracles that I cannot explain so I also know it would be totally unwise to dismiss the spiritual dimension. I am as pragmatic as humans come and I always wonder if these spiritualists are just tapping into something we do not really know about like electromagnetic induction.

You have travelled well on a good intellectual road, and I applaud the sincerity and openness in your credence (if I could borrow that term for now). It is true that many people may have so many questions about faith (I do) and science (as well I do). But the key to understanding the phenomena of the world we live in is this: avoid extremism. When people are too polarized (religiously or teleologically), it becomes too difficult for them to see anything else. I believe that you will find the veracity for the Christian faith a very coherent experience - as long as you and I do not fall victims of brashly dismissing what we cannot disprove.

Chrisbenogor:
But to be honest with you I feel like the bible has a message a good one at that but it has also got some things pertaining to the physical world mixed up, because for me no amount of inspiration can turn a man into God, that is the only condition that would make the bible infallible.

I don't know all the answers; and I may not be a pragmatist. What I do know is that whatever interpretations one may give to the Biblical message, its message should not be misrepresented. An example: I don't remember ever reading that the Bible can turn a man into God. But as long as I am willing to apply myself to its invitation to God's love, I know I'm on safe grounds.

Chrisbenogor:
You pick up genesis and there are too many questions to ask as to why certain things are the way they are( sighs ) well I guess thats why we are here.

There is not a single book of the 66 books of the Bible where questions are not asked. I have many - several of my questions have been dispelled as I found answers. I patiently study it, read it, live it. . . and seek answers; but I always and always avoid extreme polarizations. . because I definitely will miss the message.

Whatever are the questions in life - theologically or teleologically - we do not have all the answers. Those who claim that science knows it all do not even know half of what science is all about! Same thing with a theist - I am one who will not accuse any other theist of anything: but I confess that my knowledge is small, but my faith is rock solid.

God bless you.