₦airaland Forum

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@Luvus: Not so fast, man. But you claim, as a Christian is God, right? So check the below out and tell me if Jesus was the God being refered to here, in the two quotes from the Bible. I still have more, but I am testing your embolden faith right now and before long it would not be so emboldened.

Exodus 32:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [ Or a god ; also in verses 23 and 31 ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."


Deuteronomy 9:7 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] Remember this and never forget how you provoked the LORD your God to anger in the desert. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the LORD.

Where is Jesus here; the Lord or the God, or both or neither? You have your work cut out for ya!

Where is ALLAH in those verses, olabowale?

The issue here is quite simple: the very same rule of thumb you devise for deriding the Bible should be applied in examining your own claims for the Qur'an.

olabowale:
Answer, because, ain't got all day; Jesus is not either Lord nor God in both verses!

One doesn't need all day to understand that ALLH does not appear in both verses, nor in any verses of the Bible. Since your own version of torah and injil are lost, go look for them.

olabowale:
If then you guys then magically brought jesus up later as god or Lord, it must have been unreal and it may just be only in title, but not in subsatnce.

Christians did not magically bring up Jesus as deity - the OT prophets all knew that the Messiah is deity Himself. I have been asking this same questions to Muslims for eons: what did you guys do with the prophets Isaiah and Zechariah?

olabowale:
Like monopoly money, it looks good, but can spend it. Its even worse than Ijebu money!

And the Qur'an is supposed to be the "monopoly and Ijebu" money, abi?

olabowale:
And for those who are confusing English translation for simple reading, to Qur'an which is PURE ARABIC, you do not know anything about Islam!

Keep screaming your guts like a lost child. Address them boldly and clearly. Who are "those who are confusing English translation"? How many times have Muslims been confusing the translations of the Bible and using that same otiose argument to attack the Bible?

You did not remember the "translations" of the Qur'an before you guys have used the Bible translations for your arguments. Such hypocrisy.

olabowale:
You are trying to co-mingle Islam with your religion.

Don't let me laugh! Islam is a dead religion without the Bible. QED. Nobody is mingling Islam and Judaism to arrive at anything you suggest - nor even Islam + Christianity resulting in "Chrislam".

olabowale:
It just would not work.

It has never worked - even when you and your chaps tried to smuggle Muhammad into the Bible from Deuteronomy to John's Gospel.

olabowale:
Qur'an is in PURE Arabic!

And what happened to the Kufi and Quraish? Are you so desperately sweating to confuse which is which?

olabowale:
Yet the Arabs themselves have to learn it, before they can understand it.

Yea - it is the same Arabs that the Qur'an accuses of being the worst in unbelief and ignorance - because they have to learn their language again after Muhammad gave them his Qur'an. Please put on your thinking cap.

olabowale:
Unlike your Injiil, which was revealed, am sorry, inspired, in Hebrew or Aramaic, yet none of you have seen a single one of it, in its originally inspired in language!

Too bad that your own Injil is said to be lost - and yet 'Allah' asked you to belief in what Muslims say is lost.

olabowale:
And the most ancient manuscript that you have been carrying around to show that your Injiil is authentic, can only go so far at least 300 years after the inspirational writing,from the many writers, who we even see their personal opinions in your 'Pure Injiil!'

The message down through the ages has not changed. Yet, what is te dating of the oldest Qura'n manuscript? Go find out. (Hint: there is no extant copy known today to be from Muhammad's day). Sample this:

[list]The Sana'a manuscripts—found in Yemen in 1972—represent the oldest extent version of the Quran, dated to the latter half of the 7th century. In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world. . . . >> [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts]read more here[/url][/list]

Enjoy.

Proverbs 12:8

A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.

cgift:
Obatala will never make you actualise your identity

Whatever identity that is, perhaps that explains the reason for their uneasiness.

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
@poster

The basis of the acclaimed "5" versions of the Koran is incorrect and fallacious.

They are not "incorrect and fallacious" - unless you're hoping that this will just be wished away as such.

mdsocks:
You actually know but pretend that you don't understand things.

Why is it that when Muslim claims are being scrutinized, this tersely weak exculpations are all we ever read from you folks?

mdsocks:
hmm, you amuse me

What's amusing you?

mdsocks:
Isn't there a difference between translational error and outright distortion of a word to give the opposite of what it earlier meant.

I'm glad you pointed tha out - and yes, there is a huge difference between the two. Which is why I have asked you and our dear Muslim friends to get done with the hypocrisy of trying to attack the message of the Bible based on TRANSLATIONS - unless you are saying that it is alright to apply the same rule in examining the claims of the Qur'an.

Is it fair - in your estimation - to argue a point based on mere "translations" of any book?

If you'd assume that it is unfair to do so, then WHY do Muslims constantly use that same hat-trick every single time?

mdsocks:
Like a whole verse or chapter is missing in a version and in another it's existent.

Which again we have seen happen in the case of the Qur'an as well - turn to the previous page and click on those links on Dr. Rashad Khalifa as an example.

mdsocks:
A version says its 3000 another version of the same verse says it 50,000.

Yep - just like when one version of the[b] Qur'an[/b] is claiming the singular of something and another is claiming the plural of the same thing in the same verse! Example? Here:

Sura 114 v 4:

Hilali-Khan (singular)
"From the evil of the whisperer (devil who whispers evil in the hearts of men)
who withdraws  (from his whispering in one's heart after one remembers Allah)"

M. M. Pickthall (singular)
"From the evil of the sneaking whisperer"

Rashad Khalifa (plural)
"From the evils of sneaky whisperers.

S. M. Sarwar (plural)
"against the evil of the temptations of the satans,"

M H Shakir (singular)
"From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan),"

Yusuf Ali (singular)
"From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil),
who withdraws (after his whisper),"

Are you aware that as far as VERSIONS and TRANSLATIONS go, the Qur'an is riddled with that many inconsistencies? WHY then would Muslims seek to attack the bible based on mere translations but cannot endure the Qur'an being examined by the same rule?

@kingsikaz,

kingsikaz:
@ philgrim1

there was a mixed up somewhere. i intended to write 'rational soul'
check Strong's greek lexicon 4151 for more on spirit.

Aiight - thanks for pointing that out.

kingsikaz:
thanx 4 observation. you are a great wench.

Lol. . . many blessings.

@kingsikaz,

kingsikaz:
Gen1 vs 1-2. was a CREATION ,others believe that it was a RE-CREATION. what's your own view?

I'm persuaded that Genesis 1 v 1 declares the creation; while verse 2 highlights another epoch.

@bicey,

bicey:
@ all

May Allah forgive you all.

May God both forgive you and grant you the grace to believe in His love and saving grace in Jesus Christ.

@samsonola,

samsonola:
Peace be unto you all.

Shalom.

samsonola:
The individual that posted this msg knows nothing about islam.

Maybe. . . or maybe not. Perhaps you could do better by helping us come to the "understanding" that you're assuming here.

samsonola:
YOU can say all u like but islam will continue to grow .

Christianity has continued to grow despite all the hostile things that Muslims have said against it.

samsonola:
The quran teaches us to
“Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”
(Al-Qur'an 16:125)

How many Muslims are actually doing this? If the Muslim idea of "beautiful preaching" is to deliberately castigate and slur other people's faith, then you guys need another dictionary.

samsonola:
I wonder what your bible is teaching you.

It teaches us to affirm the very things that Muhammad tried to deny from the Biblical prophets.

samsonola:
Pick any copy of the translated quran and if you don't understand some of its verses, you look for muslim scholars around to explain to u.

Please which TRANSLATION of the Qur'an do YOU recommend?

Besides, who is the "muslim scholars" that are willing to share the truth with humility and not try to mislead the enquirer?

I am only simply asking you about these issues in the hope that we can better understand you and not mistake your own version of apologetics for what it already is.

samsonola:
thats if you're really searching for knowledge.

We are. Can you please make the recommendations and let's move on?

samsonola:
Moreover i have read the some portions of the bible and i find lots of innocent killings, destruction and so on, That dosent mean i should condemn christianity outright.

Please demonstrate where the Bible commands Christians to go out and kill Muslims in the same way that the Qur'an clearly commands Muslims to go out and kill non-Muslims? Please share any verse where the Bible asks us as CHRISTIANS to treat Muslims in the same manner that 'Allah' repeatedly is hostile to Jews and Christians. WHY was Muhammad so full of cursing against Jews and Christians in particular?

samsonola:
When i see practicing christians around ,i simply ask them to explain these verses to me.

Welcome - they have been explained so many times on this Forum as well.

samsonola:
Some they are able to give reasonable explanations and some they themselves can't just understand themselves.

That's great. Perhaps I will leave others to testify how many "reasonable" answers we have received from Muslims when questions are asked.

samsonola:
carry out your Reseasch very well before u commit more sins

Your Muslim brethren have been committing grave sins with relish against Christianity and the Bible without waiting to do any sane research with a conscience. Do you mind singing to your ummah?

Cheers.

Hi @kingsikaz,

kingsikaz:
Strong's concordance fails 2 differentiate between d three by saying that SPIRIT (pneuma in d Greek) is an "Immortal soul".

While your input is helpful in many ways, could I request one thing of you? Here:

I don't know about Strong's Concordance not differentiating between the three (spirit, soul and body). Perhaps it did (and I'm persuaded so). However, could you show us how or where Strong's Concordance referred to the spirit as an "immortal soul"?

Many thanks.

Hi cgift,

Happy New Year.

cgift:
Please note that Manning's accussation of Kenneth, creflo and others do not necessarirly mean that he himself is right. He may have personal grievings asides. Have heard Manning preach severally and I personally do not think he has the audacity to condemn like that. I feel he is almost enetering hate speech - my submission though.

Apt.

In the same vein, what we have done is "criticize" Manning.

The point is that we should know when and where to draw the line and make good use of own God-given discernments.

Should we "criticize"? I believe we should - in the sense that we should know what's proper and what is not. Should we "judge"? Again, I believe we have a responsibility to "judge" - in the sense that we are careful to not condemn people (see John 7:24 -- "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment".

Either way, I agree with you that some have become overly pre-occupied with "critizing, judging and even condemning" others - and when that state of affairs is the thrust of one's ministry, disaster is not far away.

Count down:

. . . . 5 Days to winners being declared.

Regards.

@ibro17,

ibro17:
Sorry for not having correct information about islam.

It's alright if that was an apology for Muslims who do not have "correct" information about Islam.

ibro17:
there is a difference between Qur'an and Hadith(sayings of the prophet).

Nobody so far has tried to make them the same; infact, Muslims on this Forum have told us that the Qur'an must be understood from the Hadiths - and what the poster quoted are SAHIH hadiths (e.g., Sahih Bukari); that is, hadiths which are regarded as AUTHENTIC.

See here and here where SAHIH Bukhari were quoted.

ibro17:
What you have above is a hadith not Qur'an.

She didn't confuse them either.

ibro17:
Qur'an is one,no dispute about that.

Then Muslims should desist from disputing the Bible.

ibro17:
Seek for knowledge before posting anything religous on this site please.

We should rather be asking your Muslim brethren to take that advice to heart.

ibro17:
You can even seek for clearification on any issue.You equally need to come with facts like verse number(ayat) and chapter(Surah).

Can you dispute the FACTS of the references that have already been posted? Why are you guys suddenly and frantically abandoning your own SAHIH hadiths?

ibro17:
Please let take it cool as God is One and indivisible.

God is FATHER. Where did Muhammad acknowledge that FACT?

ibro17:
And He is for all of us,both christian and muslim.

If Muhammad truly believed in that excuse, would he have cursed Christians and Jews till his last breath?

ibro17:
we should learn about ourself,this is Education and Enlightement,

The reason why people are debunking the Muslim hypocrisy here is because everyone is fed up with their hypocrisy. The more people are enlightened about this issues, the better for us us.

ibro17:
so that we can have proper orientation about ourselves.

If you believe in proper orientation, you would need to acknowledge that Muhammad denied the revelations of the Biblical prophets.

@Lolabbey,

Lolabbey:
i advise u read thoroughly a translated version of the holy Quran

Muslims themselves tell us that any translation of the Qur'an into another language means that it is not the Qur'an any longer. Your advice that one should go and read a "translated version of the holy Quran" is unfortunately misleading - until Muslims themselves let us know that "translations" of the Qur'an are also the Qur'an.

babs787:
@Babyosis

The same texts that become practically useless after interpretations?
which one should he get,Yusuf Ali,Dawud,picthall,shakir,momin,parvez,Asad,Amjad,ahmad,shabi[/b]r or the other 20 translations?

Can you serve me verses from the above [b]translations that seemed contradicting and we apply same to the bible too. If you are ready for that, Babs is willing to dig into your bible again.

In all fairness and honesty, there are contradictions between those "TRANSLATIONS" of the Qur'an in many instances. Please have the humility to acknowledge the obvious rather than try to pretend it.

@samsonola,

How body?

samsonola:
Islam is not the name of some unique religion presented for the first time by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who should, on that account be called the founder of Islam.

No doubt, Muhammad is the founder of Islam; and his religion was not known anywhere before Muhammad was born.

samsonola:
The Qur’an states that Islam – the complete submission of man before his one and only Unique Creator – is the one and only faith and way of life consistently revealed by God to humankind from the very beginning. Noah, Solomon, David, Abraham, Moses, Isaac and Jesus – prophets who appeared at different times and places – all propagated the same faith and conveyed the same message of Tawheed (Oneness of God), Risaalat (Prophethood) and Aakhirah (the Hereafter).

Let me ask you something about the message about God that Moses brought.

In Deuteronomy 32:6, this is what Moses said about God:

Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?
is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made
thee, and established thee?

Another prophet (Isaiah) was even more bold when he declared:

'Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our Father,
our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.' (Isa. 63:16)

Please, only one thing I request of you: before you marry Muhammad to the ranks of the Biblical prophets, can you show me anywhere in the entire tenet of Islam where Muhammad ever knew God as FATHER?

I simply want to learn that from you, thank you.

@luvus,

luvus:
@all muslim please lets read this again and evaluate it.

That is the very thing that we have been asking Muslims to do - carefully evaluate the arguments they make (which is based merely on versions, editions and translations); and then gather their consciences together as to WHY they often try to attack the Bible on such ideas without looking at the same things about the Qur'an!

This is why those who ae often in the business of such hypocritical adventures need to carefully consider this question you asked:

luvus:
@babs

finally, please i want to request just one answer do you acept that there are many versions, translations of the Quran?

. . . which was what +osisi has highlighted in her post earlier:

[quote author=+osisi link=topic=107465.msg1878106#msg1878106 date=1201055140]So babs and co,next time you want to talk of versions of the Bible think of these Koran editions and revisions.[/quote]The thing is this: WHY attack the Bible based merely on[b] versions[/b] and translations?

WHY even attack the Bible at all - when it is clear that there are numerous VERSIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an as well (which when compared together, these verses and translations of the Qur'an are clearly saying DIFFERENT things)?!?

This attitude of Muslims attacking the Biblical scriptures does not redeem the hypocrisy of Islam and Muslims - the same Muslims who cannot take care of the fact that Muhammad denied the truth about God being always known as FATHER (evidenced in revelations of the Biblical prophets).

Hi @luvus,

luvus:
@osisi & pilgrim

wow wow!! i can't help myself be amused at the way this thread has gone. please may God bless and continually guide you all and others in helping us to know the falsehood in Islam. Amin.

Many blessings to you.

Actually, even if none of us did anything about it, there are millions of others that God Himself is bringing to His love and truth - and I can be grateful that I'm one of such.

luvus:
@pilgrim
However, i wish to request further please give us reference to sites that discuss this isue

Consult the "miracle of 19" by Rashad Khalifa who dropped TWO verses from his VERSION of the the QUR'AN!

On Nairaland, this has been posted a few times in a few thread - and that was why I offered that I do not like to recycle materials. Such recycling is another gimmick well employed by Muslims; and we all know that stale gists and recycled materials are the very things that kill the zest of any discussion (which is why Muslims always try to keep recycling the same old arguements).

Nonetheless, here is the link on Nairaland where it was first posted (click here). A snapshot of the revelant pages of Rashad Khalifa's Qur'an is as below:

https://www.mostmerciful.com/quran-89-2.jpg

https://www.mostmerciful.com/quran-89-3.jpg

https://www.mostmerciful.com/quran-89-597.jpg

Source: (http://www.mostmerciful.com/allah-countervails.htm)


We have asked Muslims who often deliberately enjoy attacking the Bible on the argument of versions, editions and translations to apply that same rule to the Qur'an. You will not see them do so any one time!

That the above case is well known in the Muslim world, please see the Wikipedia corroboration below:

[list]As early as 1976 he became the target of criticism when he made claims that appeared heretical according to traditional Muslims - such as:

Removal of two allegedly fabricated verses from the Qur'an (9:128-129),
on the grounds that they allegedly break word frequency patterns of
multiples of 19, as well as anomalous treatment of them in well-known hadith
regarding the collection of the Qur'an.

Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa)[/list]

Against the charge of heresy, Dr. Rashad Khalifa's argument for his persuasions can be found here: (http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix29.html) and several other places.

The hypocrisy in all this is that, while many Muslims (Sunni, Shia or whatever) quote Dr. Rashad in many instances for the "miracle of 19", they still condemn the same man whose article they plagiarize!!

@luvus,

luvus:
@all Muslims,


i want to request just ONE thing from you,

can u do it, ?

kindly ANSWER the questions posted to you and stop diverting, i enjoy the thread and its quite interesting but what i find disheartening is the way u muslim continue to evade, change and refuse to answer the many questions asked by the various persons,

I hope your request could be granted. Unfortunately, it is their trademark.

You guys should understand that we are not here to fight anybody - and more than anything, our appeal is that Muslims should drop their endless attacks on the Bible.

If they would not drop that heinous hypocrisy, then for conscience and heaven's sake, they should very carefully apply the very same arguments to their Qur'an on the basis of VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS and EDITIONS. Afterall, no one can deny that there are numerous versions, translations and editions of the Qur'an - even in English, all are saying very different things in many verses.

At the end of the day, I am still waiting for any Muslim to tell us WHY Muhammad had to deny the clear, unaltered revelations of the Biblical prophets who knew God as FATHER!! WHy did Muhammad deny that Revelation? Can you please share with us on this without the usual Muslim animosity?

Cheers.

@bobokanis,

bobokanis:
Ministers that speak against other ministers are never successful in Ministry because God does not support such acts.

Paul "criticized" Peter in Galatians 2:14.

Was Paul "successful" in his ministry afterwards?

bobokanis:
Negative criticism will only reduce the critic.

In criticism, there's always bound to be an element of the "negative". In that regad, many have criticized others - and yet, the criticism never reduced the critic.

bobokanis:
The best life to live is the life of love, a life that knows people the same way God knows them.

If you knew how God knows people, you would understand that His love for them does not include covering their open heresy and 419 in the name of Christianity.

Shalom.

@Aliyasimam,

Aliyasimam:
That person who brought this argument i don't think he know even a single thing about qur'an and entire Islamic religion. Please i have a single and simple question to ask any Christian or anybody who said that there are 5 Version of Qur'an.

But here are 5 questions already you asked! Are you that desperate?

Aliyasimam:
(1) Can someone tell me a single verse that can be found in Qur'an here in Nigeria that can't be found in Qur'an in America, Saudi Arabia and other countries around the world.

Depends on what Qur'an you are dealing with. We have been discussing this topic in stages - and until you Muslims drop your hypocrisy of attacking the Bible based on VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS, then we have a clear basis to bring you the real issues that you really have been excusing all this while.

Are there no VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an?

In the same way that Muslims like to run to the versions and translations of the Bible, can we apply the same rule of thumb to the Qur'an? Are you willing to face up to that?

Aliyasimam:
(2) Have you ever come across Old Qur'an and New Qur'an version, as of the case of Bible that we can have Old, and New Testament?

If you are still on the VERSIONS of the Bible, then YES - I have personally come across the VERSIONS of the Qur'an.

Aliyasimam:
(3) Please if you have even a single verse of Qur'an that you saw before which cannot be found, or altered in other version of Qur'an please kindly post it to this forum.

We don't like to recycle arguments - and this has been already posted on the Forum. Consult the "miracle of 19" by Rashad Khalifa who dropped TWO verses from his VERSION of the the QUR'AN!

Aliyasimam:
(4) Why Old and New Testament?

You should really be asking for another thread - where we can ask 'Allah' that question! Did he not claim that he sent down and confirmed the "former" scriptures? What scriptures was he referring to?

As to "why" the Old and New Testament, in simple terms: the OT points to the prohecies fulfilled in the NT.

Aliyasimam:
CONDITIONS FOR ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS

1) That Qur'an must be recognize and acceptable amont all muslims around the world (Since we have only one Qur'an) , as the Old and New Testament is acceptable among Christian.

I hear. What about the NUMEROUS versions of the Qur'an? Are you willing to drop your Muslim hypocrisy and arguments against the Bible?

Aliyasimam:
2) There shall be no Internet references, reference shall be from Qur'an and Bible and other recognizeable books from well known scholars both from Islam and Christian.

This is hypocrisy undiluted!

What sources have your Muslim brethren been plagiarizing all this while?

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
@poster

The variations are just pronuonciations and translation error from arabic to other languages.

That's not true. There are TEXTUAL VARIATIONS - and that is what Muslim scholars do not want you to find out. QED.

Further to what I just posted above, the issue for me stood like this:

[list]Question: Was God known as FATHER?

Answer:

(a) The Biblical prophets (Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, David)
ALL say YES!!


or


(b) MUHAMMAD denied the revelations of the Biblical prophets
- he denied that God was known as FATHER.

The dilemma: a time came for pilgrim.1 to choose between the Biblical REVELATIONS and the Muslim DENIALS.[/list]

I chose the Bible and left Islam.

Even when you go through the various English translations in use in Biblical Christianity, you will not find anyone denying that God was known as "FATHER" - OT and NT. It is not just about the versions, editions, translations of the Bible that are of deep concerns here. Rather, a mature attitude to this discussion is: what exactly is the message of the Bible?

God is the FATHER.

If you deny that FACT, what are you left with?

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
Not because it got many versions but cause of varying informations given in the different versions which has nullified the logical reasoning that it's consistent and 100% truth.

I apologise for the tone in my first line; but your kind of argument is one of the reasons why Muslim apologetics actually turns me off.

I do not agree with you that it has not been about the Bible having "many versions" - actually, the Muslim argument has been about VERSIONS of the Bible. Look carefully in almost all (if not all) the Muslim arguments and deliberate castigation against the Bible - they have been based on ideas of VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS, EDITIONS, etc - and not about the "original" manuscripts of the Bible.

In the same way, if there was going to be ANY genuine or coherent discussion/debate on this subject, Muslims should be willing to acknowledge that there are as MANY EDITIONS, VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS, etc of the Qur'an!! That is a fact that not even the most insidious Muslim apologist can deny - unless that person has no shame and is actually sick in his conscience!

So why is it that when these things are pointed out, then Muslims begin to unfounded excuses about them? It is easy for Muslims to claim that the Injil and the Torah are LOST (which is a deliberate and shameless lie that strengthens my rejection of Islam); but would the same Muslims be willing to find out if the central Gospel message today in the Bible differed in ANY significant way from what the apostles preached?

Let me give you an example. As a former Muslim, I rejected the idea that the Jewish scriptures actually declared that God was always known as FATHER - Deut. 32:6 and Isaiah 63:16. The arguement was again that this was a "corruption" - and that was the LIE the Ulema and Muslim scholars spoon-fed us all.

However, something happened in my life that made me begin to thirst deeply to know if the Muslim claims I once held were true by any dot. Shocking as it was, I discovered they were all false. NOT ONE TIME have those two verses [Deut. 32:6 and Isaiah 63:16] ever been "altered", "changed", or "corrupted".

I was not angry - I was deeply ashamed!! I desperately wanted to know the truth and was fortunate to be exposed to respected libraries and historical resources - and the more I searched, the more the truth about that fact were even more established. All I got from the several Muslim scholars I contacted was the same excuses - "they have been corrupted" - and my one question was "BY WHO??" I was fed that same excuse again and again - without evidence - until another incident forced me to take a stand: and I took a definite stand to stop reading or listening to the false claims from Muslim (so-called) scholars.

bear with me for just a moment here. The big question is this: if the Jewish scriptures declaring God as FATHER was a known fact that has never been altered or corrupted by anyone through history, can we be bold to state in simple terms that the Qur'an deceived Muslims?

There is no middle ground here: it is either Muhammad's denial that God is FATHER be dropped; or Muslims have to choose the alternative of accusing Moses, Isaiah and other Biblical prophets (such as Jeremiah, David, etc) of falsehood.

WHICH is WHICH, mdsocks?

@TayoD,

I appreciate you rejoinder to noetic's (much as I continue to enjoy his sane manner in the discussions). Most of what you had posted recently (perhaps having to repeat them for clarity) highlighted the same things I'd been hoping to deal on. I'll just watch the discussion progress, and then try and make some inputs here and there as time permits.

However, perhaps a little thing to add/observe in yours:

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=60507.msg1876450#msg1876450 date=1201018807]3. In starting this parable, Jesus began by with the phrase: "There was", which shows He was talking about an event that took place.[/quote]While I would agree with you that the Lord Jesus Christ was conveying a reality with graphic details to His audience, I suppose that the clause "there was" doesn't actually alone strengthen the idea that the event took place. No, I'm not denying the possibility that it most probably did occur; but what I would like to pont out here is that the same clause is used in several other parables.

What (perhaps) is astounding is that He used the same clause to cover three epochs of time - past, present, future - which further strengthen the reality of His claims (at least, to me). Let's sample a few:


The PRESENT:

Luke 7:41 & 42
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five
hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he
frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him
most?

Luke 18:1 & 2
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to
pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared
not God, neither regarded man:


The FUTURE:

Matthew 25:1, 6 & 7
¹[/b]Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took
their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. . . [b]⁶[/b]And at midnight
[b]there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet
him. ⁷[/b]Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.


[b]The PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE:

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted
a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and
built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. .

Although my intention is not to deflect the present discussion into prophetic outlines, I'm just pointing out this simple fact - that when someone tries to treat the parables of the Lord with levity, they are definitely bound to misappropriate His words and come close to denying the realities of what those parables convey!

Shalom.

MP007:
come out of chruches? I always thought The church was believers of christ, hmmmm,

This is what people have to try and understand: the CHURCH is the believers themselves - unless Dr. Harold Camping is asking believers to come out of themselves.

Hi @gists,

gists:
Hello, look tru the thread again my friend. I gave an instance but it was labelled a fraud.

You did not give any instance - please refer to the simple, no-nonsense question and let us know where you gave any such instance, thank you.

gists:
Olabowale, volunteered to give more based on some conditions. Those conditions are yet to be met.

Nobody asked olabowale for "conditions" - and the question has been repeated severally without his attending them.

gists:
Finally, I also asked a similar question which is yet to be answered till now- You all pretended as its not their.

That so-called similar questions have already been addressed several times in several threads, well buttressed with exact quotes from the hadiths, well-addressed after Muslims tried to propound exculpations for them;; and no Muslim has provided any sane rejoinder to re-address the simple question that was asked in this thread.

@olabowale,

olabowale:
This is the same condition with the Muslims reactions to your weak hadith that you are fond of quoting. See. My Bukhari is different from your Bukhari.

Absolute buncombe! There are no two Bukhari - just one. Besides, the Bukhari collection of Hadiths are regarded as SAHIH, which Muslims have said mean "authentic", sound (isnad). It is hypocrisy that Muslims cannot accept the SAHIH hadiths (or deny them) when the grey areas of Islam are revealed - it only means then that the Hadiths are entirely rejected by the Muslim who is making such a selective acknowledgement.

Sahih is an Islamic term that means authentic.
It is commonly used to describe the authenticity of a Hadith.
Source: Wikipedia

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Since Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the only hadith collections
in which every hadith is authentic, and the Four Sunan compilations will
invariably contain some weak narrations – according to the grading
systems of the great scholars of Hadith – the grade for each hadith in
the Four Sunan compilations has been provided, from the Arabic work
compiled by the Honorable Shaykh Zubayr `Ali Za`i, and included in
the translation of each of the Four Sunans, clearly mentioning the grade
after each and every hadith.

Source: Our Islamic Books.Com

If as a Muslim you cannot acknowledge the SAHIH Hadiths to be AUTHENTIC, please drop your hypocrisy of trying to quote a dot from them.

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
+osisi

I can now see that you now believe in the different versions of the Bible now ? abi


You can go on and on. Is this the best you can produce?

You guys sicken common sense. Nobody has ever denied that there are various versions and translations of the Bible. Muslims have tried to give the idea that the Bible cannot be trusted because it has many versions, editions, translations, etc.

What have your folks been arguing all this while but the same thing you complain about? Here:

babs787:
Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Dear mdsocks, if you care to drop your Muslim hypocrisy, you would see the empty apologetics that you are here whining about. When people try to apply the same versions and translations of the Qur'an, you hyperventilate and summersault, claiming that the people that point out the same thing about the false claims of Muslims on this same issue are "deluded". Are there no VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an - or are you truly having such a difficulty with plain English? Just what is wrong with your thinking that you guys have no conscience any more for simple truth?

@Blackcat,

Good morning. How body?

Blackcat:
You keep reading the Bible upside down and want everybody to join you in doing the same.

How have I done so from that simple reply I posted there? You don't expect anyone to just swallow a made-up idea just because the author claims "it is all in the Bible", do you?

Blackcat:
Secondly you are a Muslim so talk about the Koran and stop trying to tell Christians about what you know nothing of

Second, I left Islam and became a Christian several years ago - and since discussing issues on nairaland I have never asked anyone to consider being a Muslim. If you assume I don't know what I've been discussing from the Bible, please coherently present your case and let's discuss - no need for this outburst this morning.

Regards.