₦airaland Forum

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

I have asked you a very straight forward question and try not to deflect the thread PLS.

I explained the context in detail - don't evade them please.

babs787:
When you finish supplying me the greek word for God in John 1 v 1, then kindly supply me the greek word for 'god' when God told Moses that he would made him 'god'

Don't you see how you demonstrate you truly have no heart for a discussion? Please where did Moses speak Greek?

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses?

Lol. . . I am not confused, and your effort to try and confuse both terms cannot change anything here.

God did not make any claim of abrogating any verse in the Bible - if He did, please post the verse stating where He used that term as clearly as we read 'Allah' was both abrogating and "substituting" his qur'an here and there.

Just one verse will do. . . and no confusing or dribbling between words.

babs787:
I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

He did not change them; if He did, then I would discuss them, thank you.

babs787:
If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

In many ways, I have shared on this - and the simple reason was that His fulfilling the Mosaic Law was to give them their true meaning.

There is a difference between "fulfilling" a Law and abrogating  or substituting it. Even in civil law, the case cannot be confused. In no instance did Jesus ever claim what Muhammad made 'Allah''' claim in the Qur'an - if you have a genuine argument, please post the verse where Jesus clearly said He was abrogating any verse - in just the same clear way that Muhammad put in 'Allah's' mouth as you quoted from your Qur'an.

babs787:
Now, what do you understand by these verses?

They do not mean "abrogation" or "substitution". It is clear that He was actually stating the full implication of the LAW - which was this:

     (a) love God with all of your being

     (b) love your neighbour as yourself

That was the FULL implication of what He was teaching them, because the Law clearly had these distinctives, but the Jews were applying a legalistic connotation thereto.

Even on the matter of divorce and remarriage where the Lord Jesus Christ used the phrase "Ye have heard. . . But I say unto you", it is clear He wasn't changing, abrogating or substituting anything. One has to first understand the NATURE of the LAW first before trying to interpret them outside their context.

For whatever you may attribute to them, He did not "substitute" nor "abrogate" any verse. If He did, I would like to see where He stated it so as clearly as 'Allah' used those words in the Qur'an.

babs787:
Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not.

I haven't smuggled in any words from "ABROGATION" or "SUBSTITUTE" - you are the one trying to force them into the Bible where they do not exist, and I have offered you again and again to please quote the verse where such terms are used in the Bible.

babs787:
Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

As soon as you defend the challenges I offered. Don't play those mindless games with me, thank you.

babs787:
Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Anyhow you want to dribble it, where do thse terms appear as God stating them in the Bible:

  (a) ABROGATION

  (b) SUBSTITUTE

  (c) CAUSE to be FORGOTTEN

  (d) OMISSION??

Where did God cause any of His prophet to ABROGATE any verse? Muhammad may abrogate the Qur'an for all I care; but where did God in the Bible claim the same?

@babs787,

Let me help you here in simple terms. Please mr Babs, whenever you type, it is no offence to call someone who understands English to help read through so that you don't keep making the same misleading remarks.

An example is this:

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

I thought that this thread has been laid to rest but not knowing that you are still denying the non-existence of TRINITY in the bible and that the early prophets did not preach same.

If this matter on the TRINITY in the Bible has been laid to rest here in this thread (or anywher else for that matter), would my simple question have remained unanswered by Muslims ever since I asked it?

What question was that?

Here:

Any discussion about the Trinity in the Bible (OT and NT) must necessarily involve the revelation whcih God has given of Himself in the Bible - afterall, we all want to know if the doctrine of the Trinity is taught in the Bible. Now, this revelation has to be consistent and not denied at all anywhere by any of the Biblical prophet. Hence, both the OT and NT teaches that God is known as FATHER - and my question to Muslims have been this:

Can you deny that God was known as FATHER by all the Biblical prophets?

If that cannot be denied, then what is so difficcult to acknowledge also that both the OT and NT taught about the fact that the Son was deity as well as the revelation of the Holy Spirit? There can be no denying the fact that the Biblical prophets all knew God as FATHER - and the only people who can attempt to deny that fact are callous and shamless minded Muslims with all sorts of excuses.

I know how embarrassing it must be for Muslims to ever imagine that Muhammad could deny the revelations which God gave of Himself to the Biblical prophets - that is why reference is never made to such prophets as Isaiah, Zechariah and Jeremiah in Islam!!

But my aim is not to embarrass anybody - Muslim or Christian - for that kind of behaviour simply shows that we would be engaged in the same chiidish games all over again. However, my aim was to help Muslims carefully and intelligently look at each item of this discussion instead of just denying it wholesale. By trying to look at this issue carefully, we shall all honestly come to the FACT that there was never a time when the revelations were altered: they have always remained the same to the point that God was ALWAYS FATHER - and from there also we can then go on to see the Deity of the Son as well as the Holy Spirit.

Infact, when we come to the Holy Spirit, we shall see that all those ideas you referenced in quote ("Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians", not one of these sects in their various persuasions ever confused who exactly the Holy Spirit was - they did not assume or mistake Him for the angel Gabriel (Jibril). Which brings us to another interesting question:

WHY then did Muhammad assume falsely that the Holy Spirit that the Biblical prophets knew was angel Jibril?

You see, babs787, the word TRINITY may not appear in the Bible - but even if another theological term was used (such as TRIUNE), it still does not change the fact that God was known as FATHER - and also we cannot evade the question of the deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit which the Biblical prophets knew so clearly!

babs787:
Now please with regards to Ist John 1 v 1:

Can you tell me the greek word for 'God' in the above verse?

Yes, I can - and I am still reserved until we genuinely enter a discussion to be honest about the revelations of the OT prophets who knew God as FATHER. It is crucial that we come to that fact, because it is clearly connected with what John was pointing out when he employed a very distinguished style of Greek in penning John 1 v1.

Hint: when you find the term you are asking about in John 1 v 1, ask yourself this also: did John use that same term in any other verse? If he did, who was he referring to in that (or those) verse(s)?

Cheers.

@babs787,

babs787:
Do you have the missing verse in the Quran with you and please? Can you still tell us who the hadith above was referring to and I will shed more light on what seemed difficult for you?

Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident?

babs787:
Is 'abrogation' the same thing as 'omission'?

You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please.

Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" in the Bible as 'Allah' used in his Qur'an.

This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin.

Thank you.

@babs787,

babs787:
@Pilgrim.1

Your game will never work with.

You can repeat that until your call for Friday prayer - everyone who has commented so far understands that pilgrim.1 has no games to play here.

babs787:
You are saying that God did not cause them to substitute a verse for another but let us read throug these verses to see how true your statement is:

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

babs787:
Now Jesus changed the rule thus maming us known that they have been told that any man who divorce his wife must give her a certificate but Jesus made us known that it would be a sin to do hence he changed the law

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

babs787:
Now Pilgrim.1, what does the above mean to you? Did Jesus not change the law of Moses?

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!! So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and baptism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

olabowale:
[qd from +osisi]
says who ?
Missionary work will continue till Christ returns[/qd] and their atrocities will increase. Check out googles vidoes under religion and type in Christian missionary atrocities.

How about these from your Muslim brethren in their efforts to spread Islam? Here:

---

INDONESIA

Forced Conversions To Islam Continue in Indonesia

SANTA ANA, CA (January 13, 2001) -- A growing body of evidence confirms reports that Christians in Indonesia's Maluku Islands have been forced to convert to Islam under threat of death, although Muslim clerics deny the claims . . . >> (read more)

INDONESIA:

Forced Conversions, Circumcision in Moluccas

Conflict in the Moluccas is set to enter a third year with no end to the violence in sight. Disturbing new reports suggest Christian communities are facing forcible conversion and circumcision, adding a new dimension to a conflict that has already caused untold suffering. By conservative estimates at least 5000 have been killed and a further 500,000 displaced. Whilst the majority of Moluccans wish to see the conflict resolved, Islamist extremists and elements in the government and armed forces are widely believed to be behind the continuing violence. . . . >> (read more)

PAKISTAN

Forced conversion to Islam fatal for Christian boy

Lahore (AsiaNews/Ucan) – Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy forced to convert to Islam at the hands of torturous abductors has prompted the PAKISTAN Catholic Bishop's Commission of Justice and Peace, to take up the legal case. The Christian youth died of injuries inflicted by a teacher and students at an Islamic school. The National Commission for Justice and Peace declared May 4th that the incident reflects a worrying trend of forced conversions. . . . >> (read more)

AFGHANISTAN

Afghan kidnappers 'want convert'

The kidnappers of an Italian journalist in AFGHANISTAN have offered to free him in exchange for a Christian convert who fled the country, an aid agency says.
Photojournalist Gabriele Torsello was seized last week while travelling on a bus in southern Afghanistan. The kidnappers will free Mr Torsello, a Muslim convert, if Abdul Rahman returns from Italy where he was granted asylum earlier this year, the aid agency says.
Mr Rahman had escaped a possible death sentence for becoming a Christian. . . . >> (read more)

EGYPT:

Christian Girl Escapes Muslim Kidnappers

An Egyptian Christian teenager escaped her Muslim kidnappers last week hours after they had drugged her on a public bus. While holding her captive, they threatened to rape her and convert her to Islam if her family did not leave their Nile Delta city of El-Mahala el-Kobra. . . >> (read more) [here as well)]

NIGERIA:

Christian Boy Escapes From Muslim kidnappers

SOKOTO, Nigeria, April 17 (Compass Direct News) – A Christian boy kidnapped in November by Muslims who intended to convert him to Islam escaped last month and has returned to his family home.
After four months in captivity, 13-year-old Victor Udo Usen fled from his Muslim captors on March 6 and ran to a shop run by his mother in the Mabera area of Sokoto, capital of the northern state of Sokoto . . . >> (read more)

SUDAN:

Boy slave 'crucified' by Sudanese Muslim

A Sudanese slave who was assigned to watch his Muslim master's camels was "crucified" when he was caught sneaking out to attend a Christian church . . . Damare Garang was seven when the attack happened, officials said. He had been captured by Islamic soldiers when his Sudanese village was attacked, and then sold as a slave to a Muslim family in Tuobon, Bahr el Gazel.

<<snip>>

His master was waiting when he returned.

"Where have you been?" he was asked, and partly from fear and partly from not having another answer, he said, "to church."

"You have made two grave mistakes," the slave master said. "Yesterday you lost one of my camels, and today you worship with infidels!" . . . >>(read more)

MALAYSIA

Lina Joy: “Freedom of conscience is at risk in Malaysia”

Kuala Lumpur (AsiaNews) – “in the current climate in Malaysia is seems almost impossible to exercise freedom of will”. These were the first words spoken by Lina Joy, following yesterdays Federal Court sentence which refused to recognise hr conversion from Islam to Christianity. “I am devastated – she confessed to The Star newspaper – by the fact that the countries highest court is not able to guarantee a simple fundamental human right to its citizens: that of the freedom to choose their own faith and the person they want to marry”.
. . . >> (read more)

Earlier report
Lina Joy has been disowned by her family, shunned by friends and forced into hiding - all because she renounced Islam and embraced Christianity in Muslim-majority Malaysia. . . . >> (read more)

Please understand that these incidents were not reported in a corner as an isolated event - they scale the following countries in diverse geographical locations:

Afghanistan

Egypt

Idonesia

Malaysia

Nigeria

Pakistan

Sudan . . .

. . . and many other countries.

In the midst of the mud-water, there are sane voices asking just one fundamental question, as highlighted below:

Why is the World Silent on Christian Persecution?
Damare Garang, a seven year old slave boy in Sudan, was "crucified" on a board and left for dead by his Islamic owner for sneaking away to attend a church service. As they walked to their Christian High School in Indonesia, Noviana Malewa and her teenage classmates were attacked by Islamic jihadists with machetes, who decapitated three of the girls leaving their heads on the steps of a church. Only Noviana survived, bearing a scar across her face and neck as a gruesome reminder of the attack. . . . >> (read more)

@babs787,

babs787:
6.
Where was the denial made?

K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch
RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch
Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE
The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY




KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch
RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway
GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage
New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY
The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH



KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall.
RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard
GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them.
The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD

I'm sorry for you! Since you could not find materials to plagiarize, you have now tried to perfect the art of RECYCLING old gist!

This issue about "Where was the denial made?" has been soundly laid to rest previously already - click here and see how bari_kade outlined it for you!

babs787:
Another post coming shortly.

Did you mean to say "another recycled material coming shortly"? Please save them if you have nothing fresh to present. This trash attitude should be way above your age by now!

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

What is the rule if I may ask you?

What is difficult for you to understand the simply issue about TRANSLATIONS, babs787? Are you so gifted in being so callous? May God deliver your soul from this hypocrisy.

babs787:
Since you are confused as a result of different word used therein, can you please read the tafsir on that verse and get in touch? When you are through with that, can you also tell if these verses too used same word and meant same thing?

Are the tafsirs based on TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an as well? How do the tafsirs explain the difference between "baptism, colour, dye, religion and system", babs787? Do you care to tell us?

And the many verses you posted - are they not also based on translations of the Bible?

You're really having such a bad day, I can see.

babs787:
KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons
RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons
GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards
LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all

And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below:

[list][li]One of the meanings of "bastard" -

The illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
- by-blow, love child, illegitimate child, illegitimate[/li][/list]

[list][li]that already has the term "[url=http://]illegitimate child[/url]" as of the same meaning! [/li][/list]

You have serious problems babs787.

dafidixone:
Not at all, just the blue print on the Quiz improvement idea as requested. Take your time to do the review and let me have the response.

Will comply - thanks again.

dafidixone:
Keep fit. I pray the annointing of God on you will never run dry.

stay blessed

Amen - more upon you.

Lol. . . abi we get the same internet-connection wahala to post yours 2ce??

dafidixone:
Have you check your mail today? Do!

A small glitch: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-104652.0.html#msg1890596)

@dafidixone,

_{For some reason my connection is a bit slow today - I can access my email alright, but my e-box won't open! I'm in the library, though (and this happens often when I'm far from my office location - as I'm connected to their ISP). Anyhow, I'll check it after classes later todaywhen I get home (say about the wee hours of Sunday - tomorrow) - dat too late?}

Thanks again for your patience. Many blessings.

dafidixone:
A prayer call for all muslim: The God may turn them from darkness intio light.

Amen.

_{Even if they get upset by merely reading that call to prayer.}

@babs787,

How bodi?

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding.

If you don't want to respond to them, please don't force yourself tirelessly. You have been the one arguing on "translations" of the Bible endlessly, and others simply allowed you to continue that game for long. There has to be a time when you need to settle down and apply the same rule of your argument to the "translations" of the Qur'an as well - then you will see how very disingenous you have been all the while.

This is not a "tit-for-tat" game which you often try to play once your gimmicks are dissolved. But my entering into this discussion at all is to make both Muslims, Christians and others understand that there is no reason for Muslims to keep attacking the Bible based merely on the various translations available if the same Muslims in their seething garboil cannot settle down and see that the same "translations" of the Qur'an have even more confusion to the public reader than Muslims have assumed earlier.

It is for this very reason of such callous Muslim hypocrisy that I have since ceased to entertain your pretences. You would notice that I've since stopped obliging you any answers to pretended queries because you never have demonstrated that you had the interest ina  genuine debate or discussion. BUT (and a big BUT), I could not let this one pass by - and that was why I entered this thread to dissolve your shakara.

Just one thing, though. Before you ever try to attempt another attack on the Bible based merely on "translations", take a moment or two and look deep into your own heart. The question you need to settle with yourself is this: what do you gain from attacking the Bible and Christians? It does not benefit you a dot to keep callously spewing your Muslim mendacity on others if you truly have no heart to examine and apply the same rule to your own Qur'an.

babs787:
I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.

In the first place, the idea of trying to "nail" somebody belongs to chidish gabble. That is trash talk. Rather than try to "nail" you, I simply called your attention to something far beyond that, which is: your attacks on the Bible are hypocritical and unfruitful to you personally.

Second, even if I kept out of the Khalifa translation, it still does not change the FACT that the other translations of the Qur'an are as contradictory and confused as the example I gave earlier. Sir babs787, there is a world of difference between "religion, baptism, system, colour, dye" - and these are all coming from the popular translations of the Qur'an by MUSLIM translators and scholars!!

The point at the end of the day has been established - your attention was being called to the same thing you never took time to observe in the Qur'an translations before applying that rule to attack the Bible merely on translations!!

babs787:
What is the rule if i

Did you miss something there?

Shalom.

@dafidixone,

Blessings bros!

- - - - - -

@imhotep,

imhotep:
What of GODISNOTHING ??

Wow! Another great one. Could we try?

GODISNOTHING

GOD - IS - NO - 'THING'

- - - - - -

i.e, don't make God into a "thing"

[list]Rom. 1:21-25
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, . . .
(they) changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things. . . and worshipped and served the creature more than
the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [/list]

Guys, these stuff are great. Wonder if you have anymore - or other quizzes to enjoy?

Cheers.

@ismailys,

Many thanks for replying. How bodi?

ismailys:
@pilgrim

[td]Meanwhile, did you check out the simple test of the number of times the word "day" (yawm) appears in the Qur'an? It is NOT 365;[/td]

of course there are approximately 360 days in the islamic lunar calendar(which has more spiritual meaning to muslims of the world).

Okay, but your "approximate" figure of 360 is still far apart from the widely accepted figure of 354 (or perhaps 355 depending on what Muslim authority is doing the counting). The reason why I requested your view on that was to understand where you were coming from regarding the idea of the numbering system among Muslim apologists - because those who offer a "360 days" also have this idea of attributing it to a "perfect circle or degree" (since a full revolution is 360°).

Not that it would have mattered anyway, but just to be sure that I don't misread you was the reason why I requested your view. Following that, I'll share a few things with you consequently - using your prefered figure of approximately 360 days.

ismailys:
but that does not mean islam does not recognize the solar calendar.

I didn't say Islam disregards the "solar" calendar - and perhaps you anticipated me when you stated immediately that:

ismailys:
perhaps the 365 days was GOD'S way of doing HIS things , so that people
like you who are outside the fold of islam will realise its authenticity

. . . which would mean that this whole idea is predicated on a religious context rather than merely concerns with other worldviews. As long as you introduce it upon the basis of "GOD'S way of doing HIS things", there's no doubt that you're asking your reader to assume a religious leaning when examining the claims you reposted from whereever you harvested them.

Secondly, to assume that people outside the fold of Islam who may be reading those claims would then try to figure out the "authenticity" of the Qur'an, is asking to skate a bit off the rink. WHY? Because that would be asking people outside the fold of Islam (such as the Jews) to examine the claims you posted under a different calendar system (the Hebrew calendar) - and by that alone, your premise would be wrong.

ismailys:
You said the number of times "day" occured in the noble Quran was not 365, i think u should post the one u have and let see, remember i said "DAY".

I am particular about "DAY" (singular) and not "day[b]s[/b]" (plural). I'll take my time to post them for your careful consideration.

ismailys:
and i expect u to contradict others too with proof, please

Well, my point is not to "contradict" anything, but as stated earlier - to show you that such ideas adduced for "proof" for a so-called "scientific miracle" of the Qur'an are wrong. Ultimately, in the course of sharing my views with you, there would be clear pointers to contradict you post - but more than that, my aim is to help you see that your researchers have manipulated the figures. Fair enough?

ismailys:
i tell you the truth , all these can NEVER be coincidence as some of you will postulate.

I think it would be too early for me to counter that statement; because my persuasion is that UNTIL I have shared my points, any claim to those posts not being "coincidental" is a bit preposterious. When we get there, you should be able to find that they are more than a coincidence - because the authors manipulated the figures.

ismailys:
any way insha Allah i will post more , you havnt seen anything YET

If the "more" you intend to post is not another string of manipulated figures and claims (like the false claim for "HAMAN", then there's nothing new there.

Cheers.

aaly2020:
You Muslims even claim the Bible is not the truth, but here you are using the Bible to declare it talks about Islam. Well if its a lie and a changed doctrine as you claim it is, start seeking other ways to prove yourself and your religion.

Islam becomes a self-defeating religion if it denies the revelations of the Biblical prophets.

Proverbs 2:6-7

For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.

[quote author=+osisi link=topic=107465.msg1889407#msg1889407 date=1201307950]Where's everybody?[/quote]Nne, we just dey! We're still looking at the "translations" of this thread. 

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
The Glorious Qur'an considers such alterations as inspired by Satan, who ", will command them (his devotees) to change what Allah has created, " (An-Nisa': 119)
Tattooing is one of those excesses.

How does tattoo apply to the idea of changing "what Allah has created?"

Meanwhile. . . @ismailys,

It would be interesting to see you come back and help clarify your assumptions for the mistaken idea of the "scientific miracles" of the Quran.

Nothing much, as I'm not requesting you to go through every single point. That is why I limited my query to just the few as regards these repeated request:

(a) [quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=108142.msg1888449#msg1888449 date=1201287221]Meanwhile, did you check out the simple test of the number of times the word "day" (yawm) appears in the Qur'an? It is NOT 365;[/quote](b) [quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=108142.msg1888449#msg1888449 date=1201287221]and secondly, I requested you to check how many days there are in the Muslim calendar![/quote]Just those two will do for now.

Shalom.

@olabowale,

Two things, please:

olabowale:
@Debosky, KAG and Jayon: Gentle we have some problems!Do you how wrong is if Mormon sect is the correct sect one.

I don't think anyone has tried here to pass the Mormons off as the "correct" sect; hence, your pointer here is an ineffective mechanical device skit round the gist in the entries you were replying to.

olabowale:
The failure in your theory also, is that God Almighty have confirmed that there will never be another Prophet, because the office of messengership ended with Muhammad.

God Almighty did not "confirm" that there would be no other prophet - it was rather Muhammad who made that claim for himself without acknowledging the prophecies in the revelations of the Biblical prophets. This failure on Muhammad's part throws his idea completely out of the ambit of a prophetic discourse.

@OlowoTee,

How bodi? Somehow I knew you have been MIA for a while. Nonetheless, join in and beat the dealine! Oga "Rica" is doing well, I trust. He's just being economical with his appearances!

- - - - - - -

@dafidixone

I go send you "that thing" later, but thanks for your patience.

The Associated Press (2006) is quoted in many blogs and online news agencies as having carried a story/article about the JP thing:

[list]Jacob Olupona, a Harvard University expert on African religion, notes that many African Christians, including him, have Old Testament names.

Visiting Israel is so important to Nigerian Christians that many put "J.P." - meaning Jerusalem pilgrim - at the end of their names after they travel to the Jewish state, just as Muslims who make the pilgrimage to Mecca add "al Hajj" to their names, Olupona said.[/list]

Now, for those who have been wondering whatever happened to "JP" as meaning "Justice of the Peace", it would perhaps help relieve their stress to consider that anything Nigerians do very quickly overshadows whatever existed!

Or, assuming that you have a large heart to include other extensions of the "JP" saga/titles, consider these:

JP - Jack Pot

JP - Jerusalem Patriarchate

JP - Jet Pilot

JP - Jewish Princess

JP - Junior Police

JP - Junior Professional

JP - Junior Professor

JP - Juvenile Polyposis

JP - Pope John Paul II

You see what our dear jintujinta says:

jintujinta:
When next you see the appendage ask for clarification.

If you forget to add the title, jus remember to know which of the "JP" you are referring to before you append it to someon'e name O. . . if you mistakenly address them as "JP" with the pointer to Juvenile Polyposis, I won't be responsible for wetin go follow you!

Oh, BTW. . . some of una wey dey struggle to shakara with the "NYSC" appendage should just do a quick re-think! It might so happen that you may be mistaken for what you did not plan for yourself. For such appellations as NYSC, click here - help is on the way!!

Shalom!

Okay people, there's no ignoring this "JP" thing any longer:

[list]"Last year approximately 15,000 Nigerian Christians made a pilgrimage to Israel. Many Nigerian pilgrims now affix the initials "JP" - Jerusalem Pilgrim - at the end of their names after their return, in a practice akin to Muslims adding "al Haj" to their names after making a pilgrimage to Mecca." . . . curled from here[/list]

Perhaps what should make us smile benignantly is that the JP thing is not a localized sport anymore - it has been so popularized that even foreign-based media have taken notice.

And if you tink say na small-pikins dey bear the JP title, abeg remove dorti comot for your eye and see why jintujinta has been hissing at 'em all along!

Sample them:

(1) This "prof" must have considered it an achievement
to be conferred with the JP title:

Rev (Prof.) Fakae performed the 2006 Christian Pilgrimage to
the Holy Land (Israel) in January, 2006, under the auspices
of the Government of Rivers State, thus the title,
Jerusalem Pilgrim (JP). . . [url=http://www.rivpolyonline.com/Rector's/rector_p3.html]see here[/url]

- - - - - - -

(2) Another "Assistant Director" in the Nigerian Geological Survey
is heralded as having made "outstanding achievements" in the field(s)
of geology, mineral exploration and research. Listed as one of his
"awards" is the 'KSJ', plus the 'JP' - it says:

'Jerusalem Pilgrim (JP). Conferred with the title by
the Mayor of Jerusalem in January 2003,
during visit to the Holy Land on Pilgrimage
(2002 batch from Taraba State, Nigeria).

- - - - - - -

If ogas them in Naija are promoting the 'JP' thingy as a big achievement in their careers, wetin the rest of us go do? Even the people who live in Jerusalem gon-gon no make shakara reach us!

Hi @Ndipe,

Ndipe:
I don't like to give a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible, because I am a learner also.

Literal interpretation or not, we are all learners.

It's interesting that this subject is helping us all examine the views we have all held hiterto about the subject. Confessedly, it is so broad that one necessarily has to examine the many connections thereto - the nature of the spirit, soul and body of man (in life and at death); the nature of the places described (heaven, hell, grave, etc); the meaning of such terms as "ascended", "resurrection", "sleep", etc.

Cheers all the same.

@ismailys,

Thanks for sharing.

Again, this effort is merely trying to force the idea that the Qur'an is a "scientific miracle" - and it won't be enough for me to say it is not, until I share the reasons why those points you posted are not helping your argument. Take for example the one about Haman:

ismailys:
"HAMAN" AND ANCIENT EGYPT MONUMENTS

The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century. When the hieroglyphics were decoded, it was understood that Haman was a close helper of the Pharaoh and was "the head of the stone quarries.

I'd like to ask just 3 questions here:

(a) which "Haman" are you referring to here?

(b) did you check to verify that the name "Haman" was unknown until the 19th century?

(c) what is the cultural identity of that name?

Of course there are many more simple test questions to help you see how very fradulent are your "scientific" claims. For example, before the 19th century, the name "Haman" was well known and had been used in Esther 3 in the 1611 edition of the KJV translation of the Bible - that was way back in the 17th century! How could the translators have come to that name if nobody ever knew the name "Haman" until your Muslim "scientists" deviced the mechanical hat-trick to claim what you posted?

These are some of the simple issues that make me wonder why anyone would want to remain in a system where the "scholars" are deliberately making false claims.


Meanwhile, did you check out the simple test of the number of times the word "day" (yawm) appears in the Qur'an? It is NOT 365; and secondly, I requested you to check how many days there are in the Muslim calendar!

I look forward to your responses. . . and then I hope to take the time (no matter how long it takes me) to list out the number of occurences of that word in the Qur'an for you. Perhaps then, you would see for yourself that the claims of the "scientific miracles of the Qur'an" are false.

Cheers.

Greatest Tayo-D,

How far? I no see you again for for Heathrow Airport O! You do me 419, abi bawo?

Anyhow, I knew my superiors would not disappoint me - and sooner than later, you came along. Blessings will overtake you before you finish reading this sentence!!

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=107939.msg1888119#msg1888119 date=1201282003]@Pilgrim1,
I think that verse is very clear. Anna got married a virgin and was with her husband for 7 years until his death. That don't even remotely suggest anything about them not having sex.[/quote]Well, I don't know; and as I said earlier, I'd have to frankly submit that my knowledge of the Greek is too weak to cogently grasp the construct as to its true meaning. Even Bible translators have had to admit the difficulty in precisely translating that verse into English (or any other language) - and the fact that I'm yet to come across any research material to explicate it hasn't helped me either.

From the translations you offered, it should be clear to us that the case points out what I just stated - the difficulty in the Greek construct of that verse. Let's examine them carefully:

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=107939.msg1888119#msg1888119 date=1201282003]Let's look at other translations of that verse Luke 2:36

Douay-Rheims - She was far advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity.[/quote]Again, that could be interpreted either way - but the translations does not even make clear the case of whether she remained a virgin after she married, or that she retained her virginity seven years after she had married, or even yet that she remained a virgin all her life until that advanced age!

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=107939.msg1888119#msg1888119 date=1201282003]NLT - She was a widow, for her husband had died when they had been married only seven years. [/quote]Far removed from the reference to her virginity.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=107939.msg1888119#msg1888119 date=1201282003]NIV - She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,[/quote]Another tacit silence on the reference to her virginity.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=107939.msg1888119#msg1888119 date=1201282003]WNT - She was of a very great age, having had after her maidenhood seven years of married life,[/quote]This comes closer to the idea that her virginity ended when she entered married life. But oga Tayo-D, even if I would like to believe that (in my bias), it so happens that the reason why many translators struggle with thise verse is because it is not clear if she remained a virgin AFTER having married - especially at that advanced age.

Anyhow, I'm not forcing any idea of being suggestive at something awkward here. My point simply is that when we study the Greek rendering, it is not so easy to convey its meaning in English.

Cheers.

olabowale:
Tell me from the Old testament, the 'Torah' and the sabuur or from the New testament, the 'Bible/Good News,' the geneology of say, Abraham for just 10 generations, before him, Moses/Aaron, his brother, for 10 generations, or just chose your own poison, any prophet from your book after Moses will do the justice for me, . . .

I was almost tempted to remind you of where the genealogies were recorded in the Bible. . . but I heldback because of this:

[quote author=D__D link=topic=106630.msg1887641#msg1887641 date=1201276043]sure, just as soon as you detail the genealogy of mohammad. I've been asking for weeks now and u are yet to oblige.[/quote]Perhaps olabowale could simply oblige us. . . and then his request would be met.

Lol. . 'pastor' cybersleek,

cybersleek:
Like wetin i talk before before,

E don tay wey I dey suspect you!

Your points noted. . . and we'll take the time to digest your submissions.

Cheers.

@D-reloaded,

[quote author=D-reloaded link=topic=108212.msg1887510#msg1887510 date=1201274429]Is the Qu'ran against tattoos, pilgrim?[/quote]I believe so, . . or should I say that I'm persuaded that is the case (even though many Muslims argue that the Qur'an is not explicit or as clear on the subject as the Bible is). That some Muslims argue in favour of the idea that the Qur'an encourages tattooing, I'm still not persuaded that is what the Qur'an teaches (although I respect the views of others).

On the other hand, I would honestly have to agree with other Muslims who argue that the Bible is implicitly clear that tattooing is not encouraged (or should I say, "forbidden" - such as you have outlined in the verses you quoted:

[quote author=D-reloaded link=topic=108212.msg1887510#msg1887510 date=1201274429]I mean the bible specifically says

“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:28)[/quote]I don't know how Christians would see such verses and still want to argue in favour of tattooing.

On the whole, I don't want my own persuasions to be imposed on anybody. Either way, I believe that both the Qur'an and the Bible forbid the practice.

JeSoul:
no you are not crazy
I will say though that you're onto something when you say it's in the old covenant and we're not bound to it else we'd have to do every other single old school commandment as well.
However I wouldn't compare it to smoking, smoking is definately bad for you, but getting a tatoo isn't. And there's actually christian tatoo organizations out there who are using their gifts and tatoo conventions as a means of reaching other tatoo enthusiasts. . .now can I say that they're wrong? certainly not. They're redeeming the thing and returning it as a service to God.

However we can't ignore that tatoos are usually attached with negative connotations and we should avoid every appearance of evil. A christian being tatooed head to foot will draw adverse attention and that does not glorify God. But I think if in moderation and sincerity someone wants to use it as a means of creating evangelistic opportunity - we can't begrude them for that. Especially since the bible doesn't restrict it. If it isn't detrimental to them, and their conscience clears them then power to them. To each his own. One man's meat, another mans poision, one mans sabbath, is not to another.

Lol. . . galfriend JeSoul, even before I reach here, you have taken the words outa ma mouth!

Anyhow, a few lines I may add to share with D-reloaded.

Many blessings.

Greatest kingsikaz,

kingsikaz:
madam pilgrim, u dey there, i feel u.

u know do me anything, free world,

No wahala.

kingsikaz:
great wench, u may rearrange it 2 suite your taste. but 4 me
i still maintain that TRINITY obeys d law of RADIATION OF D SUN.
you got 2 read more on philosophy particularly on PLATO'S THEORY ON IDEAS. in other 2 understand d pre-existence of life.

Okay. . . na your way! My respects, bros!

kingsikaz:
mama , all i still feel u. never relax

Enjoy. . . you're still "great".