₦airaland Forum

@Novice1,

Novice1:
To all Muslim Nairalanders,
Please lets end all these arguments through which some insensitive people blaspheme on Allah (SWT) and his beloved Prophet (SAW).
Remember there is no compulsion in religion.

That does not mean we should not discuss either religions and express our convictions in a sane manner. I wonder why people like you do not emerge to end "all these arguments" when Muslims are slurring the Christian faith. But when issues are brought forward to unearth the real ideology of Islam, that is when we read from you.

Anyhow, enjoy.

@kobe,

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=106806.msg1871116#msg1871116 date=1200893598]Okay - I've been a bit lazy myself these days. When I'm a bit more settled, I'll post a few links.[/quote]Try these:

A. There is a difference between "spirit" and "breath"

B. The "spirit" in man has distinct functions from "breath"

C. The "spirit" is a distinct component of man"

D. The "spirit" of man was created WITHIN him

Succinct Outline between the components by ricadelide

An indepth treatment of the distinctions between them

Cheers.

Hi @kobe,

kobe:
Oh. Sorry, I'm too lazy to dig up buried threads.

Okay - I've been a bit lazy myself these days. When I'm a bit more settled, I'll post a few links.

kobe:
The beginning of the "living" part of his soul. What about the other parts of the soul that make up the whole?

At creation  (Genesis 2:7):
[list][li]the body was first made;[/li]
[li]then God breathed into man;[/li]
[li]and then he "became" a living soul[/li][/list]

Others verses affirm the same thing:

[list][li]In Deut. 4:32, Moses speaks of "the day that God created man upon the earth" - which underscores the fact that man was created, and his beginnings were on the earth rather than in a pre-existent world;[/li]
[li]That man did not have a pre-existence is further highlighted in Job 38:4, where God asked this question pointedly: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Again, this would lop off the idea of a pre-existence and make it easier for us to understand that there is no substance to the presupposition that we had a prior-existence but cannot recall certain info after we were born;[/li]
[li]Zechariah 12:1 states that God "formeth the spirit of man within him" - and I'm persuaded that points out that the body would already have been formed first before the spirit was formed within him.[/li][/list]

kobe:
What kind of experience is it? It could shed some insight into what happens after death.

True - it could shed some valuable insight into what happens after death; but thus far we have confined our discussions within the parameters of Scripture. However, the sort of experiences I hinted about are such as have to do with the ethereal and supernal worlds.

Basically, the question here is about whether or not the soul (and spirit) of man survives the death of his body. Having affirmed that it does, the next logical thing would be to discuss what type of existence the soul is brought to after it departs the body.

Some believe that the soul ceases to exist upon the death of the body. That's all well and good as appertains to their persuasion; but I'm not convinced that is what the Bible teaches - for two reasons:

~ because Scripture does not teach that idea; rather, the Bible highlights some activities of the souls of men after the death of the body;

~ when such an idea is closely examined until we come to the question of the resurrection, such proponents are of the view that the soul would be re-created in man on judgement day. This already proffers serious holes in thinking: because it would rather reduce man to a being of only TWO parts; as well as blur the distinction between the soul and the spirit - which are clearly distinguished in Scripture (Heb. 4:12). In anycase, the Bible does not teach a "re-creation" of soul.

kobe:
It's no longer a living soul once the body is recycled, it has to transform into another soul.

Well, I wait to see how you establish that idea from the WORD. On the contrary, the soul still "lives" - but not in our physical world, but rather in the experience of the ethereal and supernal world.

kobe:
I will be very fortunate to expand my wisdom at their expense. Hopefully they do come.

Lol. . . the sages never fail to show up at the right moment.

Enjoy.

Proverbs 2:6 -- For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Blackcat:
"I did not make this stuff up. It is all in the bible. "

It's clearly made-up gist.

@hotfunmi,

hotfunmi:
Is it true that they don't accept roman catholics?

But why should you be interested in whether or not they recruit Catholics in their cult?

hotfunmi:
A friend once told me that Obasanjo is a born again ogboni member.

Ask your friend if he/she attends the ogbonni meetings - that is a sure way of verifying the claim firsthand.

@focused,

focused:
@Pilgrim :

At least you are a living evidence to that, Islamic religion will never save anyone, but it will only leads to destruction.

Well, I can only be eternally thankful to God that He mercifully brought me out and saved me by Hid grace.

focused:
I pray this Islamic deluded man ( Olabowale) accepts the truth. There is no amount of explanation of the Godhead you will say to him that will make him change his mind.

He is being deliberately forcing himself into a delusion he cannot find anywhere in the Bible. After severally sharing with him that there is no such thing as "3 godheads" (plural) in the Bible, he jumps from thread to thread and litters fine and sane discussions with the same deliberately otiose fallacies.

However, I probably was worse than him as a muslimah. Things too harsh to read were words I had used in deriding Jesus; just so that I could ridicule the Christians who tried to share the love of Christ with me. But today, it is such a remarkable thing that God forgave me and gave me the gift of eternal life in His Son (inspite of all I had said and done against His name).

I won't stop praying for olabowale - and I trust that his time to receive Jesus Christ as his Saviour will come.

Blessings.

Hi again @ismailys20,

How body?

I was looking forward to your response on the character that Muslim scholars had interpreted as "Alexander the Great" in the Qur'an in the other thread. I no see you again, wetin happen?

Anyhow, I may be greatly mistaken (that is if one takes the "20" out of your username).

ismailys:
that is not true (i don't want to call you a lier, but i know that you are only being ignorant,
i wonder what you knew when you were a "muslim" perhaps you did not find so much entertainment there ,the usual singing, dancing , holy ghost miracles and so on,

Usually, I would simply advise gentlemen like you to carefully make your research and verify issues first before starting out in such outbursts.

Actually, I have seen a few of those different editions for myself when I was personally trying to verify the claims of my former religion - and yes, there are different editions of those translations: all of which are saying very different things.

For now, I'll rather point your attention to something interesting. Please see this article by A.R. Kidwai which lists them out in easy to read annotations. If you have any misgivings and you feel that what I have shared so far is not true, then you need to consult Kidwai to let him know how seriously he's misleading the Muslim ummah on this.

Did I say 85 editions from only FOUR translators? Well, you may have something to say about George Sale's translation of the Qur'an - which has undergone [size=14pt]123[/size] editions already! And that is ONLY ONE version alone O!!

When you settle down, I have another list for you - but it is not about English Qur'ans. It is rather about the diferrent Arabic Qur'ans - as different as the West is from the East.  For now, to whet your appetite, you may want to see [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscripts]Wikipedia[/url] on yet another different manuscript of the Arabic Qur'an:

[list]Excerpt:

The Sana'a manuscripts—found in Yemen in 1972—represent the oldest extent version of the Quran, dated to the latter half of the 7th century. In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world.[/list]

But, of course, all those are mere sampling of small gists. When you are hungry enough, I will take the time to show you real differences between the DIFFERENT Arabic Qur'ans. Just dress warm, eh?

ismailys:
for your information there is only one and again only one version of quran, what you were referring to is many translations and that is the beauty of the quran if there is an imperfection in a particular translation , you resort to the arabic quran for translation, the root language of the quran.

Thank you; but sorry, you obviously are repeating what you have been spoon-fed by Muslim scholars who would rather not tell you the simple truth. What would you do when you discover the DIFFERENT Arabic Qur'ans? I have not simply relied on hear-says or what I found on the internet. . . but just let me know when you're hungry enough to find out the simple truth for yourself.

ismailys:
it is like all you have been posting here and there is " copy and paste", you need to be sincere so that you don't loose in this world and the hereafter.

For someone who is new on the Forum, it is forgiveable to assume that my discussions have been only recyrcled materials from websites. Sadly, you would need to spend sometime reading through my entries to discover the shocking reality that they are not.

On the other hand, I deliberately do not copy and paste materials (like your Muslim brethren have been tirelessly plagiarizing articles from websites). This time, I simply take them by the hand and lead them gently to a tight corner where they cannot find articles from such showmen as Naik Zakir et al.

That is why if someone like you is relying on a copy-and-post exercise with me, you would quickly have to re-register another "ismailys'. . . maybe dropping the "ys" this time.

Don't get worked up over nothing. . . just relax until you have done your homework, you hear?

ismailys:
you cannot win peoples heart with falsehood especially when what you are
giving is no where better than what you want to take

That's true. For all the years I was a Muslim, I could not win anyone's heart to the love of Jesus. The stark reality was that I was in need myself of giving my heart over to Him. and from that very day, I have seen the falsehood in Islam exposed, and many people have come to the saving love and grace of God in Christ (not through my discussions - but through the simple truth of God's revelation in the Bible).

Shalom.

olabowale:
The Curse of Allah, His Angels, His prophets/messengers and the believers, are on the disbelievers.

Why is it that we mostly get to read of bitter cursing from the lips of 'Allah', Muhammad and Muslims?

No well-informed Muslim would pretend that he or she has never heard of the Zabur (Psalms) of David. This is what he said about those who have turned themselves into cursing machines:

Psalm 10:7
His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud:
under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

Psalm 59:12
For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips
let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing
and lying which they speak.


Especially those who never tire to curse until cursing is the last word on their lips while they lay on their death beds:

Psalm 109:17 & 18
¹⁷As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him:
as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.

¹⁸As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment,
so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

olabowale:
You see your blind rage, bordering on the so called road rage or black rage!

Perhaps you need to address your own rage before it spirals into something else.

olabowale:
Jannah is forbidden for disbelievers who worship God and something else, eg Jesus or his mother. This is your problem, Davidylan. And you to +Osisi.

I'm sure "disbelievers" are not interested in a Jannah that is predicated on endless liquer, and lust as lewdness. If the heart is not delivered from the sex games on earth, it is no wonder the Jannah being preached in Islam is nothing short of lewd gratification.

- - - - -

Oh, BTW. . . did I mention that none of the curses which Muhammad pronounced upon Jews and Christians have ever come to pass - after 15 centuries? NONE - absolutely none - can ever come to pass!

atutupoyo:
We use to have this thread but I can't find it.

Here: What Did You Learn At Church Today?

atutupoyo:
1. Today I learnt in life we make mistakes and fail but these should strenghten us and make us stronger.
2. God's will and plan will come to past in our life, though it may tarry but it will come to past. God doesnt promise and not fulfill (Gen 21 vs 1-8, main verse 1-"And the Lord visted Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did for Sarah as he had spoken". Joshua 23 vs 14.

Bless.

olabowale:
You need to do Ice fishing, because in America today, the sword of Islam is already upon the Blacks, Whites, Spanish and the Chinese/other orients. They are now being forced to convert!

Need we say anymore?

Sample the fly casting you're touting here (and these are not events of the medieval ages):

INDONESIA

Forced Conversions To Islam Continue in Indonesia

SANTA ANA, CA (January 13, 2001) -- A growing body of evidence confirms reports that Christians in Indonesia's Maluku Islands have been forced to convert to Islam under threat of death, although Muslim clerics deny the claims . . . >> (read more)

INDONESIA:

Forced Conversions, Circumcision in Moluccas

Conflict in the Moluccas is set to enter a third year with no end to the violence in sight. Disturbing new reports suggest Christian communities are facing forcible conversion and circumcision, adding a new dimension to a conflict that has already caused untold suffering. By conservative estimates at least 5000 have been killed and a further 500,000 displaced. Whilst the majority of Moluccans wish to see the conflict resolved, Islamist extremists and elements in the government and armed forces are widely believed to be behind the continuing violence. . . . >> (read more)

PAKISTAN

Forced conversion to Islam fatal for Christian boy

Lahore (AsiaNews/Ucan) – Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy forced to convert to Islam at the hands of torturous abductors has prompted the PAKISTAN Catholic Bishop's Commission of Justice and Peace, to take up the legal case. The Christian youth died of injuries inflicted by a teacher and students at an Islamic school. The National Commission for Justice and Peace declared May 4th that the incident reflects a worrying trend of forced conversions. . . . >> (read more)

AFGHANISTAN

Afghan kidnappers 'want convert'

The kidnappers of an Italian journalist in AFGHANISTAN have offered to free him in exchange for a Christian convert who fled the country, an aid agency says.
Photojournalist Gabriele Torsello was seized last week while travelling on a bus in southern Afghanistan. The kidnappers will free Mr Torsello, a Muslim convert, if Abdul Rahman returns from Italy where he was granted asylum earlier this year, the aid agency says.
Mr Rahman had escaped a possible death sentence for becoming a Christian. . . . >> (read more)

EGYPT:

Christian Girl Escapes Muslim Kidnappers

An Egyptian Christian teenager escaped her Muslim kidnappers last week hours after they had drugged her on a public bus. While holding her captive, they threatened to rape her and convert her to Islam if her family did not leave their Nile Delta city of El-Mahala el-Kobra. . . >> (read more) [here as well)]

NIGERIA:

Christian Boy Escapes From Muslim kidnappers

SOKOTO, Nigeria, April 17 (Compass Direct News) – A Christian boy kidnapped in November by Muslims who intended to convert him to Islam escaped last month and has returned to his family home.
After four months in captivity, 13-year-old Victor Udo Usen fled from his Muslim captors on March 6 and ran to a shop run by his mother in the Mabera area of Sokoto, capital of the northern state of Sokoto . . . >> (read more)

SUDAN:

Boy slave 'crucified' by Sudanese Muslim

A Sudanese slave who was assigned to watch his Muslim master's camels was "crucified" when he was caught sneaking out to attend a Christian church . . . Damare Garang was seven when the attack happened, officials said. He had been captured by Islamic soldiers when his Sudanese village was attacked, and then sold as a slave to a Muslim family in Tuobon, Bahr el Gazel.

<<snip>>

His master was waiting when he returned.

"Where have you been?" he was asked, and partly from fear and partly from not having another answer, he said, "to church."

"You have made two grave mistakes," the slave master said. "Yesterday you lost one of my camels, and today you worship with infidels!" . . . >>(read more)

MALAYSIA

Lina Joy: “Freedom of conscience is at risk in Malaysia”

Kuala Lumpur (AsiaNews) – “in the current climate in Malaysia is seems almost impossible to exercise freedom of will”. These were the first words spoken by Lina Joy, following yesterdays Federal Court sentence which refused to recognise hr conversion from Islam to Christianity. “I am devastated – she confessed to The Star newspaper – by the fact that the countries highest court is not able to guarantee a simple fundamental human right to its citizens: that of the freedom to choose their own faith and the person they want to marry”.
. . . >> (read more)

Earlier report
Lina Joy has been disowned by her family, shunned by friends and forced into hiding - all because she renounced Islam and embraced Christianity in Muslim-majority Malaysia. . . . >> (read more)

Please understand that these incidents were not reported in a corner as an isolated event - they scale the following countries in diverse geographical locations:

Afghanistan

Egypt

Idonesia

Malaysia

Nigeria

Pakistan

Sudan . . .

. . . and many other countries.

In the midst of the mud-water, there are sane voices asking just one fundamental question, as highlighted below:

Why is the World Silent on Christian Persecution?
Damare Garang, a seven year old slave boy in Sudan, was "crucified" on a board and left for dead by his Islamic owner for sneaking away to attend a church service. As they walked to their Christian High School in Indonesia, Noviana Malewa and her teenage classmates were attacked by Islamic jihadists with machetes, who decapitated three of the girls leaving their heads on the steps of a church. Only Noviana survived, bearing a scar across her face and neck as a gruesome reminder of the attack. . . . >> (read more)

@kobe,

kobe:
Maybe you can qualify your stance that I opined to be, "the soul begins to exist when man is born to the world."

Done - as above.

kobe:
I wouldn't add into the word of God what was not originally present. Moreover, the reason why I would raise all these questions is, to explore all possibilities (both biblical and not). The bible does not touch upon a scenario of "life before birth" (based on what you're saying), maybe it does and I don't know, but it still remains that there might be a component of man before he was born into his body that wasn't revealed in the scriptures . Unless of course the scripture has already adressed and covered all possiblities.

I would be inclined to say that the Bible covers this subject (and many more) in detail; but for us to be able to say anything with any degree of near-certainty, it would require us to have a good grasp of what the bible teaches about it.

kobe:
So you're saying we're delving into a completely different realm here. Hmm, I see!

It seems so to me.

kobe:
Whatever thedefinitions, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying though separate they still function together. Sort of intertwined. It's like the concept of a trinity, except this is a "twinity" lol.

I like your sense of humour - and yes, I should agree that's the sense I was trying to make (unless, of course, I might need to qualify this further as the need arises).

kobe:
Now, if soul and spirit are different, then it could still remain a trinity, because we have body, soul, and spirit.

The whole man himself is a trinity.

kobe:
Where does it go when it withdraws from the body? Does it evaporate into space? Does it wait at the gates for judgement? Does it move on to a next life? Does it rest in spirit until christ arrives?

Lol. . . I would say: "YES" and "NO". How?

~ when it withdraws (departs from) the body, it goes back to God (Eccl. 12 v7)
~ it does not evaporate into space.
~ it does not wait at the "gates" of judgement; but it awaits the judgement (Heb. 9 v 27)
~ believers who have departed this life are "resting", or "asleep" in Him (1 Thes. 4:14)

kobe:
okay, thank you.

Enjoyed yours. Cheers.

@kobe,

kobe:
In my opinion, I think it would suffice based on the premise of an afterlife, to think there was a "before life".

Not necessarily. That simply means that we're thinking from pretexts rather than from the text of Scripture.

kobe:
If my train of thought is wrong, then aren't the agnostics right in believing that "it all ends" when we die, so live your life as if there was no tomorrow?

No. I would be enthralled for the agnostic to first shed the idea of "I don't know" while actually in reality he's whistling a "I refuse to be concerned"!! Hehe!

Asides, life is not about living "as if" it all ends now. Even for the agnostic, there's something which he or she may not know (and nothing would make sense to such, depending on what grounds they stand); but we can't be that preposterious as to deny that questions about spirituality are as legitimate.

kobe:
Okay.  I suppose we're both fishing in the same water.

Maybe.

kobe:
This is why I asked about the relationship of the soul relative to the conscience.

Another legitimate question - and that would bring us by-and-by to the discussion on the functions of each component (spirit, soul and body).

kobe:
If man is composed of both the spirit and the body, does the body exist merely to fulfil, as in carryout the will of the spirit?

Nope, the function of the body is much more than that - but each element of our being has their distinct function in our total being.

kobe:
I am compelled to say that the soul feels, decides, and thinks, while the body acts based on the spirit's preference.

That's a good one from you. However, I would only say that the body "feels" as well (e.g., pain, touch, cold or heat); although it may not be able to decide or think.

kobe:
Based on the logic that the soul is immortal, it is sound to ask if you existed before your birth.

This is where I would have to make a statement on the issue of the immortality of the soul. I'm sorry, but I do not believe in the immortality of the soul; but let me qualify this (so that nobody quotes me out of context).

The way people discuss the "immortality" of the soul happens in most cases to mean that the soul is NOT capable of dying - that it CANNOT die. Please note - that is what most exponents of that idea affirm, and that idea is what I reject.

Here is what I'd rather say: I believe that the soul survives the death of the body; but even the soul itself can experience another kind of death!

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus spoke of both the death of the body ('them which kill the body') as well the death of the soul ('not able to kill the soul'). Please notice something here:

        ~ (a) it is possible for one to kill the body (and that's all the killer can do)

        ~ (b) it is not possible for man to kill the soul

If both the body and the soul are both killed at the death of the body, we would not be reading of two distinct experiences in Matthew 10:28.

Bottom line is this:

[list][li]the soul of man is not immortal - as if it cannot experience death (albeit, a different kind of death)[/li]
[li]the soul of man survives the death of the body[/li]
[li]the death of the body does not mean that the soul no longer exists[/li]
[li]at death, the soul departs (or leaves or is separated from) the body[/li]
[li]the soul experiences a different kind of existence upon the death of the body[/li][/list]

It only now remains for me to share these persuasions from Scripture. . in due course.

kobe:
Have you never heard of Pre Birth Experiences (PBE)?

I have.

Anyhow, @kobe,

I think most of your concerns have been addressed in the other relevant threads seeking to establish answers to some of the present questions. If you permit me, I'd only try here to address tsome other relevant issues that might help us unclutter our discussion so far.

kobe:
I am obliged to ask you to establish the scripture.

Please see other relevant threads.

kobe:
It is not by any means difficult to decipher the meaning of "eternity", so there's no problem there at all. Eternity is like saying "an endlesss period of time" . Whethere that endless period of time has a beginning we do not know. If we are dealing with time here, it ought to have a beginning, or so I would think.

Which is what I have already hinted at, by first noting that:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=106806.msg1869412#msg1869412 date=1200816177]However, to quickly assume an "eternity" of the soul without first qualifying what is meant by "eternity" will only drag this issue into unnecessary and protracted debates.[/quote]. . . and then going on to say:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=106806.msg1869412#msg1869412 date=1200816177]I have tried to clear this bit by offering that the soul is NOT eternal as if it never had a beginning - which in other words is saying that the soul of man had a beginning.[/quote]The reason why I pointed out the above on "eternity" is just so we are clear what ideas we're postulating.

kobe:
Now I think we might be getting somewhere. When was this beginning?

We are told that man "became a living soul" in Genesis 2 v 7. This, to me at least (and carefully gathering the collective testimony of scripture), would mean that man did not exist prior to when he had a beginning to ring as that he "became". In one word, this "beginning" was at creation.

kobe:
by birth I mean being born into a bodily existence. having a physical presence here on earth.
The soul is a created component of man.

Okay - which lops off the idea of a pre-existence.

kobe:
If this is true, then the soul only began to exist when man was born to life. Why should man be convinced that the soul will live beyond the destruction of his body? Why does not the soul die when the body dies?

Two reasons why the above:

(a) because that is what Scripture teaches, and I can't improve on what is taught therein.

(b) because what is taught in Scripture shows that the soul exists beyond death in an entirely different kind of experience.

kobe:
I'm not "too versed" in the scriptures, so the answer to this question is perhaps left to the pators, priests, or any other masterminds we might have on these forums. Maybe they would be able to shed some light.

And we're inviting such brilliant minds (who, perhaps have been watching with the wisdom of the sages) to cough in here be-times!

Smart one there:

Dear kobe,

kobe:
Which is why we're left with more questions than we have answers.

It should not necessarily be so. The point is simple - more questions are only indices of the fact that people start out with unbalanced ideas before even allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

kobe:
One needs to qualify the existence of a soul before qualifying the eternity of the said soul.

Which is not a difficult thing to do. However, to quickly assume an "eternity" of the soul without first qualifying what is meant by "eternity" will only drag this issue into unnecessary and protracted debates. I have tried to clear this bit by offering that the soul is NOT eternal as if it never had a beginning - which in other words is saying that the soul of man had a beginning.

kobe:
Was man/soul created at birth?

Could you qualify what you mean by "birth"? It is not clear what exactly you connote by that word - judging from the context you have used it so far.

kobe:
And, did he acquire a "living soul" through birth?

As above. The simple thing here that I'm persuaded Scripture teaches is that the soul is a created component of man.

kobe:
Or, did "man"(not necessarily in this bodily form) exist quite before his physical presence here on earth?

The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

kobe:
In short, what was man before he became a "living soul"?  dust, sperm, or a "resting soul"? or none of the mentioned?

I would need to ask you pointedly, kobe: does Scripture teach anywhere that man ever existed before he was created? I haven't come across such an idea in Scripture - and if you are so convinced thereto, perhaps it would help us if you start out by demonstrating that it is so - from Scripture.

kobe:
First, I would like us to validate the presence of a soul.  I would assume you're either a pastor, or a deeply religious person who knows "enough" about the scriptures.

No, I am not a pastor; nor do I make any claims of nothing so much of Scripture.

kobe:
Since I am a christian, it would not take too long to convince me that there is a soul, but how would you convince me that there exists a soul?

Lol. . . it really is one and the same thing, I guess - unless you would like to explicate the difference.   That there is a soul simply points out that the soul exists - as much as to say that if a soul does not exist, then there is NOT a soul! Abi no be so?

kobe:
After we establish this phenomenon, we can then tackle the idea above.

Done. Oya proceed.

kobe:
I was forced to ponder this too.  At the same time, I thought it unwise, or as though foolish, that I know not of another life that is in existence.  Earlier I asked the question about where I was pre-birth, and why I am unable to retain/recall that information in this life, can you shed any insight into this?

Oh well, as a Christian, I haven't come across the idea that we were pre-birthed before we actually came to earth. That would be quite a task to coherently bring out from the Bible (unless one would rather be incoherent and read their personal pretexts into the word of God).

Actually, I do not have any problems about "retaining/recalling" any information in an assumed "pre-birth" life or existence. The reason?  There are loads of reasons; but top of the list for me would mean that one would be equating himself/herself to a sort of re-incarnated being (which again the Bible does not teach).

I'm aware, though, that Mormons espouse the view or idea of a pre-existence and fancy themselves as sort of "foetus gods". The reason why they are not so confident in that teaching as to boldly acclaim it today is because it was a fallacy from the very beginning.

kobe:
Oh good!
If man has a soul, is his soul one with his body while he is "living" on earth?  Does it remain separated?  Are all of these somehow related to our conscience?only time will tell.

Let me safely say that I tend to regard "separate" and "distinct" as two different things. Please pardon my being particular here, but it is only necessary for the discussion.

By separate, one would be led to believe that body and soul exist in a divided manner while the man is alive - and I'm sure that's not what we would like to project.

However, by distinct, I'm looking at the existence of spirit, soul and body TOGETHER while man is alive, and yet none of the components being misconstrued for the other. Even at death when the spirit and soul are separated from the body, these components are still distinct from one another ('separated' here being the same thing as has been used by others to mean "departed from the body".

If you pardon my attempt to be clear here, you'd understand while I don't espouse the view or idea that the soul remains separated while the man is alive. Once the soul departs (or separates from) the body, death occurs - and a corpse is all that is left to be buried.

kobe:
I apologize for being all over the place, but there are just so many questions. cheers!

Oh please, you do not need to apologise! Be encouraged to bring them all the more. I do not claim to have all or many of the answers - and such questions are the very things that stimulate me into seeking to gain an understanding from those more knowledgeable on the subject.

Best regards.

@exbogus,

exbogus:
I can't believe I had never heard of him before. The quotes I've seen so far are great.

No offence, but how do "quotes" answer to the deepest spiritual needs of one's heart?

exbogus:
First, I really believed in the whole Christianity thing when I was growing up. It was all genuine then, giving my life to Christ, the emotions, seeking a revelation/touch from Christ etc. It all just doesn't make sense anymore. I feel like I understand religion, and I know how important it is to those who truly believe, which leads to the second problem.

What actually would you say was missing here? How could you explicate for us how what you affirmed to be "GENUINE" suddenly "doesn't make sense anymore"?

exbogus:
Everyone around me is a strong Christian. I LOVE my family and friends and do not want to hurt them in any way. I'm guessing my sole hypocrisy is a fair trade for the happiness of those close to me. Right?

But who actually is asking you to remain in your sole hypocrisy so you can blame it on others?

@omo.olomo,

[quote author=omo.olomo link=topic=106719.msg1865589#msg1865589 date=1200676592]I grew up in church, was in the choir, was an usher, wrote for the church magazine, participated in bible quizzes, sword drills, prayed, read the bible, and even once had the nickname pastor.[/quote]This is where it should begin to make sense to you:

davidylan:
. . . christianity to you has been all about activities and very little personal relationship with the Lord.

In other words, as the adage goes: the cloak doesn't make the monk.

Even worse than your own case omo.olomo, some that I have known (believe it or not) have actually performed miracles in Jesus' Name - with incontrovertible evidence. Today, they have abandoned the faith, and even now pouting that it didn't make any sense to them from the beginning.

There is a great divide between "religious activities" and a living relationship with Christ. Many people have confused the two; and this is where we need to ask again and again: what actually makes you a Christian?

In all the arguments that could be advanced on either side, there's no need to be "scared" (as suggested by your topic). Until one has a true relationship with Jesus Christ, everything else is empty - which is what you have discovered for yourself.

Now it's up to you where you truly want to go from here: either (a) take a detour in order to get away from Jesus - if that was what you set out at the beginning to accomplish; or (b) get done with the cover of cheap substitutes and activities and go on to discover a living relationship with Christ.

@gists,

gists:
Must I explain everything?

You're not obliged to; but at least, please be clear and bold when you make statements for public consumption.

gists:
Just what makes u think I was refering to your proposed article?

Your reaction to my mentioning specifically atheist authors, perhaps. Afterall, my inference was to follow precisely the same idea you had proposed - in which case, you had to refer to an atheistic leaning that favoured Islamic ideology.

gists:
Why would u post an article from whoever (atheist, budist, krishna, . . .) that'll support islam?

My aim primarily was not to post articles supporting any religion. I offered only one question; but rather than come back to read answers from our dear Muslim friends, we were disappointed that all you had for us were excuses up to the present post. If I am mistaken, could you please show me where you had answered the question as to where Jews and Christians FIRST attacked Muhammad before he launched attacks on them?

gists:
My dear it was an indirect way of making you have that thinking. David got the message

I'm sure even davidylan was not gooned by that hat-trick, as it has proven itself so ineffective.

@kobe,

kobe:
What about pre-bodily existence? The soul continues to live even when the body is laid to rest. For the soul, I don't think there's ever birth or death. The soul is eternal, premordial, and everlasting. Since this is the case, what/where was I prior to being present in the body, and why am I unable to retain and recall that information in this bodily form?

The above (and more) are legitimate questions that we all should be concerned with. However, if the ideas we started out with are quite unbalanced, the inferences will be as unbalanced as well.

One needs to qualify the meaning of the soul being "eternal". The soul of man is not "eternal" as though it never had a beginning. God did not "become" a living soul - rather, it was man at the time of his being created that was said to have "become" a living soul.

Second, the core question in discussions like this that many people really seek an answer to is the question of whether the soul continues to live "even when the body is laid to rest". Put another way, we are saying that the soul survives the death of the body. I believe that the soul does not cease to exist at the death of the body; and following that, I'm persuaded that the soul lives in quite another (or different) kind of existence.

Discussions like this (as broadly suggested by the topic of this thread) would involve questions of the nature of the spirit of man; the meaning of the body and soul; the reality of the existence of these components of man in life, at death and beyond death, etc.

As we progress this discussion (as well the on-going discussions in the other relevant threads), I trust we shall arrive at some conherence somewhere.

Cheers.

@davidylan,

davidylan:
@ stillwater, you tried. Notice most people now ignore olabowale's irrelevant piece of garbage.

Very true. Because he has become even more irrelevant, he has continued to remain in the iggy bin.

- - - - - - - - -




@olabowale,

olabowale:
@Focused: Any Muslim who says to you that he embraces Judaism and Christianity, must know what he is talking about.

I became a Christian - and in all the debates we have held with Muslims, I have clearly demonstrated that I kknow what I'm talking about. Sad to observe that even in this thread, you really do not know what you are talking about - as a starter, you need to go back, drop your spoon-fed preconceived ideology, and begin once again to read the real history of Christianity. Paul did not begin Christianity - there were many who had become Christians BEFORE Paul was converted. There were many who had confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and as Son of God, even before Paul was converted. Jesus Himself had declared His deity to the disciples long before Paul was converted.

All these things are clear even to a non-Christian observer. But typically, you would have to regurgitate the same false premise and offer them as though you had anything intelligible to present in a new thread.

olabowale:
The Qur'an declares Jews and Christians as people who have incurred the wrath of God and people who have gone far astray, respectively.

That the Qur'an declares it so does not mean it is true. Muhammad in his jealousy was making things up because he could not confuse Jews or Christians away from the revelations of the Biblical prophets. Those Biblical prophets knew God as FATHER - the very thing that Muhammad denied; and one who knew God as FATHER could never incur His wrath; whereas, the one who denied that God was known as FATHER was indeed under the wrath of God.

olabowale:
It would be astonishing that a Muslim will not at least say to you, that if you die as a Christian, in your belief of 3 godheads in 1 god, you will be driven like cattle to the fire of Hell, for punishment.

If a Muslim ever said that to a Christian, he or she would be the laughing stock of the New Year! Because such a Muslim would be making up things as Muhammad did, especially because neither Judaism nor Christianity speaks of "[size=14pt]3 godheads[/size]" (plural) - that has been made clear to you MANY TIMES!! The Bible did not mention 3 godheads (plural), and the fact that you are trying to force-read that fallacy into the Bible where it does not exist, clearly demonstrates your tireless hypocrisy.

Besides that, your claim that Jews or Christians will be driven to Hell is a blank laugh! Go find out for yourself who actually your own MUSLIM scholars have said will be taken to Hell! That is why I asked you recently in another thread if any Muslim will be taken to Hellfire by Allah's decree - you never sought to address that question. Are you coming closer to the reality of your own religion?

I said it before - your time to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour is not far away. Do not let it pass you by.

olabowale:
So count me out of those who may falsely embrace you. There is Islam (people who believe) and then there are others (people who do not believe). You focused is from the crowd of disbelivers. You talk as if your Bible is a standard of truth. No, it is not. It lacks absolute truth and it is very skiddish that it borders on unreliability!

The Bible is the standard, my dear. I did not know that for the many years I was a Muslim. . . until the scales fell (thank God they did), and I was so ashamed of the deliberate falsehood that Islam actually is in reality.

olabowale:
I bet within a few generations, inshaAllah, I will still be around when there will be a new revised Bible coming out!

More and more revised editions of the Qur'an are being published. Did you forget that only four translators alone have produced 85 editions of the Qur'an already (as I showed in another thread)?

olabowale:
It does that always. But it will never be stable with a permanence.

The Qur'an has never been stable with the Muslim false claim of a single Arabic Qur'an. Go figure.

olabowale:
The Qur'an has made that statement and it is a 'hatman decree!' Ask Davidylan he will tell you what hatman means. It is an already determined thing.

Please go and weep for your future if you fail to realize that your own Muslim scholars have determined that Allah was referring to Muslims when he made that decree.

God who revealed His love in the Bible never promised to take the righteous to Hellfire - not one place will you find that idea in the Bible. His love and mercy are clearly demonstrated therein so that there are no confusing "hadiths" to misinterpret them even for a child. If you truly want to escape Hellfire, don't take your chances with a confused 'hatman' - you may never recover from the 'hat-trick' of the Qur'an. There is no reason why you would want to shun the love of Jesus Christ.

@toluxa1,

toluxa1:
It is really a dangerous thing be in the churches in this days of the end of the church age.

Now this is beginning to get serious for you and we need to know how serious it has taken you. Truth be told, God never asked anyone to get out of (or leave) THE Church. Please if you find where He said so, why don't you post it and let's discuss it openly?

This one just made me laff, no be small!

@gists,

gists:
Just thinking . . .(why would a Jewish atheist write in favour of Islam )

Lol. . . but nobody ever said I was going to refer you to a link authored by a "Jewish" atheist, abi? No be you say make we read the article from the atheist wey you quote earlier? Haba!!

gists:
I was hoping to put an end to this ping-pong because its obviously leading nowhere, but for that statement above. Please pardon my ignorance. Are you suggesting that 9/11 was a muslim propaganda?

Hehe. . . wait first, did he sound like he was making it a Muslim "propaganda"?

@gists,

gists:
@pilgrim.1
Here's an extract from an article I read some time ago, from a neutral person. But please read the whole article from the link provided not just the extract.

Many thanks for that link. As above, there's nothing for me to add to davidylan's replies. . except just one thing for your consideration:

Would you be willing as well to consider what other neutral persons (atheists themselves) have said in honest and forthright comparison between Muhammad and Jesus Christ on the matter of brandishing swords? I'd rather not turn your gaze there. . . unless you'd really like for me to post the whole article for your consideration.

I only requested just one question: that you should please show me the historical antecedent of where at all the Jews or Christians first launched any attacks upon Muhammad before he sought reprisal attacks back on them. Just that one request. I do not understand why that simple request has been so difficult for you and your friends to answer.

All the same, perhaps you are now coming close to realizing the truth of what I shared with you earlier - that you will be hard pressed to find any honest article pointing out that Jews and Christians first launched attacks on Muhammad before he attacked them. Like I said, many Muslim websites have such articles (which are mere propaganda); but the reality is that those articles are revisionist thesis that are false.

When you do find such historical verification, please share them on the Forum and let's discuss further.

Blessings.

@davidylan,

davidylan:
Gist . . . its high time you realised that since 9-11, many of us have stopped believing the deceitful propaganda machine of islam anymore.

You have taken the words right out of my mouth. I was hoping to come back and have an amicable discussion with gists on the link he offered; but there's nothing for me to add to your rejoinders.

Cheers.

agatha2u:
a catholic going to white garment church and on saturdays worship

Wonders shall never end!!

Since when did Catholics start going to "white garment church(es)"?!?



_{Kai. . . I don miss plenty for wetin dey happen back home O!}

@stillwater,

stillwater:
The internet should be abolished? Please also check out this link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/mar/05/childprotection.childrensservices

Does it mean the internet has to be abolished?

Help me ask them well-well.

In just the same way, let us see others who abuse children. Since his concern is NOT about "religion" per se, but about Christianity ("See What Christians Are Doing", then let's review other types of child abuses:

[list]https://preventchildabuse.com/images/redBall.gif Who abuses and neglects children?[/list]

[list]In 2001, 60 percent of the perpetrators were female with an average age of 31, and 40 percent were male with an average age of 34.

Approximately 84 percent were abused by a parent; Mothers alone were responsible for 47 percent of neglect and 32 percent of the physical abuse.

More than half of all victim were White, 51%; 28% were African American; 18% were Hispanic; 2 % were American Indian/Alaska Natives; and 1% were Asian/Pacific Islanders.

Source: (http://preventchildabuse.com/abuse.htm)[/list]

Okay, so we see that the culprits include:

[list][li]female with an average age of 31,[/li]

[li]male with an average age of 34,[/li]

[li]Mothers (who alone were responsible for 32 percent of physical abuse[/li][/list]


So, following the idea of the poster of this thread, should the above also be "abolished"?

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@+Osisi: You are living out the Bible life; the copy right (ing) aspect of it, claiming to be an 'Original,' but never stable, but always changing: (I have to amuse myself, but you may not be amused). When I first met you it was Babyosisi, then in time a new you developed in the person of Nwando. To my surprise, you surprised me with a newer person, +Osisi! You see why you and the Bible are perfect, together? (Do not get angry. This is just to draw the parallel between you and the always changing 'Bible' and Torah).

Lol. . . I wonder why the various versions of the Qur'an were always changing. What went wrong, for example, that the version of the Qur'an by M. W. Marmaduke Pickthall has undergone 27 editions already (as at the 1970 publication), despite the fact that it is the favourite of most Muslims around the world?

The version by Muhammad Ali (The Holy Qur'an: English Translation, Lahore 1917) has also undergone 10 different editions. The version by Sher Ali (The Holy Qur'an, Lahore, 1955) has also been subjected to 13 different editions!

Another very popular version and a favourite with Muslims is the one by Yusuf Ali (The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary, Lahore, 1934-37). Are you aware that even that one has gone through at least 35 editions already?

I have cited only FOUR versions from FOUR translators of the Qur'an in English alone - and put together, you're looking at about 85 editions of your Qur'an!

Besides all these changing Qur'ans, we know that there are several different Arabic Qur'ans. I have posted links on this several times, and we don't read other Muslims making noise as shawn123 did earlier. I pray he also will see how Muslim propaganda has served him no good at all.

olabowale:
Your former Muslim piece that you quoted, deserve a simply introduction, which I hope I will provide and you should as a strong woman deliver it to him/her for her response: Could you, dear former Muslim, name the first War that the Muslims, under Muhammad (as) fought, and when and how old was Islam at the time of this fight? What were the mitigating factors that brought about the fight? Have you ever read anything about this war, in the Qur'an, Hadith and in the Seerah?

Lol. . . are you so scared to address me directly, olabowale? What happened to all the noise you have been making about pilgrim.1?

Anyhow, I dropped the propaganda being peddled by Muslims about those wars, and instead went into the sources of Islamic holy writs to dig for the truth behind those cavalier apologetics. I have already shared that the truth that greeted me was so staggering as to leave me thoroughly ashamed of Islam! The relevant portion has been requoted by +osisi.

Now, once again I'd like you to note what my enquiry was about ab initio. It is quite simple:

WHERE did Jews and Christians first attack Muhammad before he attacked them?

A very simple question that I have had to repeat endlessly - and so far, all you Muslims do is offer excuses of the battle of badr, the first war that Muslims fought, when and how old Islam was at the time of those wars, mitigating factors, BLAH, BLAH, YADA-YADA!! I anticipated all this deflective tactics - and that is why I still hold you guys down to my simple question. I have not asked for all those excuses; rather my question was a straightforward, easy to understand, and no-nonsense query:

WHERE did Jews and Christians first attack Muhammad before he attacked them?

Could you please help us with straight, easy to understand answers, and save the excuses for those who need them? Thank you.

olabowale:
+Osisi, when you look at the conditions that surrounded this war that I want your former Muslim friend to tackle for us, in a honest fashion, you will realise why should the muslims at that needed not to be the 'sacrificial lamb,' of the Middle east! Thus that phrase ring a bell? If I wait for 24 to 48 hours, with a good response, then i will educate your friend, InshaAllah about that war.

Hehe. . . what is so scary in addressing me directly, olabowale?

I did not ask you about the "conditions" of any Muslim wars. Please see again:

WHERE did Jews and Christians first attack Muhammad before he attacked them?

Please proffer real answers and save the excuses and not-so-clever deflections you have been putting up all this while.


Shalom.

@olabowale,

Ever since your last quandary, I noticed you have carefully avoided replying to my post or engaging me directly. No worries, I offered you the wisdom of Proverbs 29:20 that he who is hasty in his words will celebrate foolishness (especially when he tries to throw words around carelessly and veers from simple truth).

However, I would like to address a few things in yours here that you are turning into another meaning:

olabowale:
Finally, to claiming the 'world,' it belongs to Allah the Almighty Creator, anyway and then giving the shepahrding/ true spiritual leadership to His Messenger, Muhammad, the only one of the Prophets/Messengers for the whole of mankind!

Please, please and puh-leeazzeee!! The reference where Muhammad claimed that the world belonged to him and his 'allah' has nothing to do with "sheperding/true spiritual leadership". Muhammad made that statement when he was on one of his pillaging missions - and in the whole event, there was nothing (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) to demonstrate that he was sharing any spiritual benefit with anyone!

I have not quoted the reference yet, but have left it up until now just to see how Muslim propagandists like you would very quickly try to mislead your "community".

Besides, Muhammad broke two fundamental laws of the Qur'an:

  (a) the Qur'an claims that the world belongs to 'Allah' ALONE;
  - but the reference hinted says it belonged to BOTH Muhammad and 'Allah'

  (b) the Qur'an claims that joining or associating anyone with 'Allah' is shirk
  - by claiming joint-onwership ownership with 'Allah', Muhammad committed shirk

Please don't try to pull a fast one here for anyone. The references will be given as soon as you come back denying that they do not exist in any Islamic source. Then we shall see how Muslims are so wound up with the habit of denying even their own holy books; as well as a testimony of how very little you know of your religion!

olabowale:
Even the Christians are trying to claim the whole world, falsely for Jesus.

It is Muslims who are trying to DENY the true ownership of the world to Christ. Both the OT and NT demonstrate that He created the world; but Muhammad came along to deny His deity just so that he could fancy calling Jesus a "slave" of 'Allah'.

olabowale:
The same claim he did not make for himself while on earth!

Is that so? Deny it all you may; but here is what He said:

John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall
take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son,
but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Speaking of the Messiah, even the OT prophets already envisioned Him as the rightful owner of all things. So many references to go through; but here are just two from David (I chose David because the Qur'an also mentions his Psalms):

Psalm 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalm 72:8
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto
the ends of the earth.

Since your 'Allah' in the Qur'an claimed that he gave the Zabur (Psalms) to David, please don't go hiding behind that classic exculpation of your lost books! Produce the Qur'anic Psalms and let us read for ourselves and know what 'Allah' gave David.

It is a humonguous shame and a blight to claim that 'allah' gave some books to Biblical characters but those books went missing! If the Torah and Gospels in the Bible could have survived down through to our very age, how come 'allah's' books disappeared without trace even after his claim to be "all-powerful"? He can protect everything from Muhammad's beard to his footsteps in the sands that are now preserved in some of your mosques around the world where Muslims bow down to worship them - but the real message he claimed he gave to David, Moses and others were just too strong for him to protect and preserve.

This silly excuses you have been pandering about should just stop once and for all. You either grow up or cause yourself the real pain to expose the truth of what you Muslims have been hiding.

olabowale:
So how could anybody be surprised when the prophet/messenger of God claims the spiritual leadership, alone on the whole world.

He did not claim a "spiritual leadership". Please quote the reference and let us all read it. When Muhammad claimed that the world belonged to allah and himself, he was on a pillage mission, plundering and looting the property of non-Muslims. What is the "spiritual leadership" in that? Muhammad never claimed that as a matter of "spiritual leadership" - please come back and quote the reference and let's see it for ourselves. Otherwise, don't try to jump into a discussion and pretend you have any clues when you simply are far removed from the core gist here.

olabowale:
Muhammad never claimed that he was more than what I had just indicated regarding his claim, but the Christians are saying that Jesus is king/lord/god over the world!

Oh Yes!! Jesus IS Lord! Again I say, Jesus IS Lord!

You can feel sorry for yourself all day long about the fact - but the day when He delivered me from the prison of Islam, I knew for sure that the Bible was speaking the truth about the claims of Jesus Christ. This is what He said:

John 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Halleluyah! Anyone who calls Him "LORD" is saying well - for He said: "so I am".

Muhammad made claims for himself that are not found in the Qur'an. More than that, he put words in 'Allah's' mouth. Did you remember what he was warned about putting words in 'Allah's mouth'? And what eventually happened to him?



Dear olabowale, your efforts to slur the Christian faith are a complete waste of your time,
resources, and peace of mind. People have said so many hard things against Jesus Christ - they have even ridiculed Him far worse than your attempts here (I know, because I have done that very thing so many times as a former Muslim). But what has happened today? The same ones who ridiculed him are the same ones who have found forgiveness and the assurance that they will not go to Hellfire - contrary to what 'Allah' promised every Muslim.

Perhaps, when I have time enough next week, we shall examine the promises of 'Allah' and Muhammad to every Muslim - and then you can compare them to the promises found in the Bible. Then you will see why I rejoice and thank God daily for saving me - even though as a (former) Muslim, I derided Jesus Christ. He is so merciful that even those who have stood opposed to Him have today found that He fulfills the promises He made in the Bible.

Your time to receive Him will come. . . SOON!!

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=104156.msg1865658#msg1865658 date=1200677330]@noetic,

I will oblige you and meet up in the other thread. I am glad we are moving forward with this. And may I commend your gentlemaness in the face of contradictory views.[/quote]I concur. Well done gentlemen.

mdsocks:
I also got an article here written by arenowed muslim scholar on the topic if you might need it understand better.

Oh, that would be quite helpful. Please share.

BTW, here's the link I hinted about earlier: (http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php)

Enjoy.