₦airaland Forum

However, the same people who often look only at such verses as cited above from Job and Ecclesiates fail to look at other verses as well. The point is that man was not designed to spend all his days in sorrow; and this is clear in the divine lessons which God taught His saints right through the redemptive history of Israel.

For instance, instead of assuming that man has always lived ALL his life in sorrow, the Bible clearly records that Israel was made glad and rejoiced exceedingly in their days as God had blessed them:

Deuteronomy 12 v 7 & 12
And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice
in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein
the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons,
and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants,
and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part
nor inheritance with you.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

1 Kings 8 v 66
On the eighth day he sent the people away: and they blessed the king,
and went unto their tents joyful and glad of heart for all the goodness
that the LORD had done for David his servant, and for Israel his people.


Also, God blessed the fruit of their labour and caused a great harvest to their labours:

Genesis 26:12
Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold:
and the LORD blessed him.


Now, the bottomline is this: the divine judgement pronounced upon Adam does not carry over its effect to our day. HOW? Simply because God Himself blessed the land when during the covenant blessing which He gave to Noah:

Genesis 8 v 21-22
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart,
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the
imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite
any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth,
seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and
day and night shall not cease.

Did you catch that? God clearly said that He would "not again curse the ground any more for man's sake" - obviously in reference to His having done so in Genesis 3 v 17 for Adam's sake! Then He goes on to pour out His blessing that seed time and harvest shall not cease! So, in answer to your question, we are not under the effects of Adam's punishment. God never asked us to still be operating upon that divine pronouncement upon the ground in Genesis 3 v 17 - rather, He wants us to turn our eyes to Genesis 8 v 21-22!!

If we fail to see this fact, then it is easy to understand why many people still assume that man is born to spend ALL his days in sorrow; whereas God has something far better for the present generation.


And what about EVE?

As you can see, she was never under a curse - and I could take the time again to walk you through Scripture to show you that God is not asking us to live our lives under His pronouncements in Genesis 3 where He meted out punishments to Adam and Eve.

If there were any curses upon either Adam or Eve, the Bible would clearly and distinctly have stated it so. But there is none specifically pronounced upon either of them; and there is no reason to try and read what is not there into the texts.

Blackcat:
Furthermore the ground was cursed because of Adam and Eve

Precisely as I have tried to elaborate upon all through my replies.

Cheers.

@Blackcat,

Blackcat:
I heard some people are calling for you to be banned anyways

Hehe. . . abeg, wetin I do una? Have I offended you as well? Please tell me - I just want to know, and it sufficeth. And before you do, no vex - I just want to be your friend.

Blackcat:
before that happens let me try to come down to your level.

I've been following your gist small-small.

Blackcat:
So you are calling the curses punishments abi?

Nope - I didn't see "curses" on Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 or anywhere else. The only one that was actually cursed in that chapter was the serpent - and you have already quoted the verse several times: "And the LORD God said unto the SERPENT, Because THOU hast done this, THOU art cursed above all cattle" (Gen. 3 v 14). Did God pronounce a "curse" on Adam or Eve - WHERE?

Blackcat:
Okay when are we going to be relieved of these curses punishments.

Good that you struck out the "curse" - because it simply does not apply to either Adam or Eve in Genesis 3. The curse was upon the ground, and neither on Adam or Eve (see Gen. 3 v 17).

As for the punishment, let's be clear what exactly was pronounced upon either of them:

Upon Adam:

Genesis 3:17-19

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice
of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying,
Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake;

(a) in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

(b) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;

(c) and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

(d) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;

for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I have only delineated them into 4 aspects - others more knowledgeable than me may come up with far less or even more.

However, the point is that Adam was subjected to a life of difficulty and the aweful pain of unfruitfulness in his labours. From all that we can see above, in summary man is not under that divine judgement pronounced upon Adam - because:

~ (a) we do not spend all our days toiling in sorrow

~ (b) God's blessings are upon the land so that it yields rich harvests.

Unfortunately, many people assume from other verses of the OT that we are still under a supposed "curse" of sorrow, pain and toil ALL our days as happened to Adam. The examples they quote include the following:

[list][li]Job 14:1 -- Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.[/li][/list]

[list][li]Eccl. 2:22 -- For what hath man of all his labour, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath laboured under the sun?[/li][/list]

[list][li]Eccl. 5:17 -- All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he hath much sorrow and wrath with his sickness.[/li][/list]

However, a careful study of both Job and Ecclesiastes will lead to the clear inference that, although there are many divine truths revealed in those books, they capture the essence of the nature of man in the vexation of his spirit under the experiences of anguish and toil. No doubt, those books are also inspired as other scriptures; yet, we should never lose sight of the fact that they reveal the true nature of man in the anguish of his own heart and ways.

For instance, Job and his friends argued back and forth in many chapters of the book of Job about the "facts" of life. Job spoke out of the anguish of his own heart - certainly as a result of the painful calamities that had befallen him (see Job 7:11 -- "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul". When God finally spoke up, His opening statement silenced them all:

Job 38:1 & 2
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

The effect of God's own counsel in all of man's arguments brings him to finally admit, as Job did, that: "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:6). Sadly, only those who haven't come to themselves still go on arguing endlessly with clever "words without knowledge".

Whereas, in the case of the Ecclesiastes, the preacher had only one premise: EVERYTHING under the sun is simply "vanity and vexation of spirit". He, however, comes to the conclusion that what really counts at the end of the day is that man fears God and keeps His commandments (Eccl. 12 v 13-14).

If one lives only for the experience of earthly concerns and shuts out the more vital spiritual matters, then the books of Job and Ecclesiates are timely books to study carefully.

@ricadelide,

I promised to get back to you. So here:

ricadelide:
wow, while men slept , this thread progressed considerably. I notice that even bros came here to show face. I'm impressed by the interest in this kind of subject.

I'm quite enjoying the discussions; but I had to crawl out of my cubicle to help with something on the semantics of the "spirit" - as I assumed (albeit wrongly) that my "ogas" (you and longman83) were simply teasing our dear discussants on the other table.

ricadelide:
@longman83,
Very nice post. You read my mind accurately about my views on ecclesiastes, and I could anticipate how my friend Bobbyaf will dribble past your post. Oh well

And dribble, he did. . .lol!! Okay, just kidding him. At least he came back to abandon ship with his latest poser!

ricadelide:
@Pili,
as always you've so eloquently passed across 99.9% of what i'd have wanted to say and more. You see, sooner than later, the real O - G - A had to show up!

A whole 99.9%?!? You're kidding, not so? No take style yab me - I was actually looking forward to your interesting comeback - just so I could see my slips therefrom.

ricadelide:
That 'student' line must be the joke of the century - except it applies to longman83 perhaps

No comment. . . until I see what he says!

ricadelide:
Permit me however to address the 0.1% of my concerns here on this thread shortly before moving our wahala over to that dead but ressurected thread. Cheers

Lol. . . m-e-n, what you posted subsequently was actually the epistle I was waiing for. Nice job. O ka re!

Bobbyaf:
So let me ask a question. When the wicked dies where does his spirit go?

@Bobbyaf,

Lol, how come you seem to be quickly abandoning ship? Is Ecclesiastis 12 v 7 (which you have often quoted) no longer applicable to your question? If not, please tell us WHY.

dot2002:
DO: Dark One;

DHA: Descend, Heartless Angel;

SPD: semantic pragmatic disorder

The titles na wah!!

@noetic,

noetic:
@pilgrim
no I am not. you said you were going to pop in and show us the part of the issue of ressurrection, we were not considering. I  was almost tempted to think I was wrong, because u created the impression of someone who had obeserved for long the debate, and has sensed certain things we ignored. you proved me wrong.

If you go back and read through my recent entries, I stated clearly that my objective was to clarify the confusion on the semantics on the word "spirit". I haven't yet come to the resurrection; as I'd first like us to ascertain just what Bobbyaf (and perhaps yourself) have put forward as meaning "the breath of life" as distinct from the "spirit" of man.

If we can get through the clutter about the "spirit", then the resurrection and other concepts will be easy to follow along. For now, I'm enjoying my "sidon-look" reservation until then.

noetic:
you havent proved these with biblibical inscription that the "spirit" that goes back to God, goes immediately to Him in Heaven.

I did not argue that the "spirit" goes eslewhere. Unless someone wants to get into another semantic cubicle as to where God dwells. . . then I could begin to see just why I need to "prove" anything thereto.

noetic:
except of course u didnt observe well. all my claims on ressurection, I gave relevant bible quotes that apply, I didnt attempt to apply "pastoral" doctrines.don't mind me.
but of course u don't doubt what peter said regardless of the language.

You're right - I was only being facetious, but I dig all the same!

In any case, I'll get to the resurrection in due course. I only needed to set the pavement for us to walk on level ground by clarifying the distinction between "the breath of life" and the "spirit" of man.

noetic:
lets examine it together.

Okay.

noetic:
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
  " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
     "Sit at my right hand

ha-ba PILGRIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

If there was any reason y I gave no more explanation over this verse, it was because it was self-explanatory.

I agree it was "self-explanatory". The only problem there is that we were overlooking how important it was for Peter to have mentioned the word "ascended". That is what I asked you to please carefully take the time to study in its context.

noetic:
two men are being compared. one is a prophet named david, the other is Lord Jesus.
david recieved promises and saw ahead of his time that Jesus will be raised from the dead. Peter confirmed that as david saw it, Jesus has been raised and he ended it saying even till this time, the david who saw the prophecy, still lies dead in the grave.

Look again - Peter was not laying a fundamental theological doctrine as though to contradict the fact that the "spirit" of David was with God, as Bobbyaf has always quoted that popular verse: "the spirit goes back to God". The question here would be: was David's spirit still in the sepulchre - or was he exempted from that verse quoted by Bobbyaf?

To help clear this issue, let's ask a simple one further: what does the sepulchre hold - the bones, or the spirit of man?

noetic:
you still havent proven it otherwise. don't use sentiments, tell us somewhere else it was stated in the scriptures that David has risen from the dead?honestly, only u can answer this question. his bones are there, the scripture says he hasnt risen. please tell us where he is?

I am not trying to apply semantics to "prove" anything - that is the simple reason why I often simply ask questions and follow the discussions from both you and Bobbyaf. For the present, in regards to where exactly David is at the moment, consider again the verse already referred to:

Eccl. 12:7  --  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Did David's spirit return to God - or is his spirit still in the sepulchre?

noetic:
u are right, I got that wrong. its a gift which none of us deserves.

Don't mind me - I quite understood that was merely a slip: no big deal.

noetic:
to say its a reward is hypocrisy. none of us deserves the gifts of salvation and eternal life.
I withdraw that statement. sorry for the mis-information.

Don't take it too hard on yourself - I knew you didn't mean it the way I highlighted it. I should have just let it pass so you don't have to feel bad about it.

noetic:
now u get the point.
first the righteous shall be ressurected and then there will be subsequent ressurections. this I will butress in my next post, with biblibical inscriptions to back it up.

I will subsequently come to the matter of the resurrection as well.

noetic:
learning from u has been nice, I look forward to hearing your (opposite) views
cheers

I've enjoyed your calm repostes. Enjoy.

Lol. . .@jerrymania,

jerrymania:
Get It. Man can't be a soul without the spirit. The fusion of flesh and spirit makes man "a living soul".

However, that should not make us always assume that the soul does not survive without the body! The lesson we learn from Revelation 6:9-10 points out that the "souls" survived after those saints were slain - that was why John was able to see the "souls".

jerrymania:
@ pilgrim

can you state some applications in development that will use 4-D?

@jerrymania,

As earlier hinted, the 4th-dimension theory is in its developmental stages; and it would be preposterous for me to make applicable postulates before they concept crystalizes in our everyday experiences.

However, perhaps one may take a shot in the dark. First, the basic concepts in gradation would help us understand the issues at stake. A linear dimension (just 2-dimemsions: L x B) is a flat representation of reality. The applications are varied - motion pictures for instances appear simply "flat" with no depth. The virtual application that graduates beyond the linear would apply depth to make it 3-dimensional (L x B x D, where D = depth).

Now, a step further than the 3rd dimension is the quest for further investigations into a higher reality than we are able to ordinarily perceive in our everyday experiences - which brings about the concept of 4th dimension. Basically, what this connotes is that TIME is added to the equation for 3-dimension - so that what is assumed previously as practically impossible for static bodies would be a reality in gravitational waves.

Enough said. What about applications?

As I said, it would be difficult at this time to make postulations. But a shot in the dark would be something like holding a wooden pencil between two fingers and gently wave it in front of your eyes. The effect? It seems as if the pencil begins to "melt" on either side - a rough idea of the 4th dimension. There's nothing wrong with the pencil - it is a static 3-dimensional body/object. But when it is being gently waved, it creates the illusion of a malleable "melting" pencil!

With such a "reality", guess what? The 4th-dimension suggests that you as a person could squeeze through a tiny hole - unharmed in any way - and still "flex" back to your original size!  . . which is being suggested by this image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/8-cell-simple.gif/200px-8-cell-simple.gif

@jerrymania,

jerrymania:
@ pilgrim

whats your take on Noah's curse on Ham? Is it still valid?

I don't believe that it is still in effect - and I will come back later to share why so.

Bobbyaf:
What does the word soul mean in this passage?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The exegesis of the soul in Scripture points to the component that identifies man in his distinct personality.

jerrymania:
will there be the fourth dimension of life as in a step forward 3D. or is it my imagination?

Well, sample these 4-dimensional images:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/8-cell-simple.gif/200px-8-cell-simple.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/24-cell.gif/180px-24-cell.gif

Cool, huh?

These ideas are still in their developmental stages. Perhaps those who are already speaking of a 5th dimension are so advanced that we'd have to buckle our shoes and roll up our socks to catch up the pace!

https://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Photos/060531/060531_graviton_hmed_3p.gif

Or, did they call it "10-11 dimension"?!?

Tayo-D,

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=105569.msg1855258#msg1855258 date=1200426735]@pilgrim1,
Yeah, the guy omitted HIV.[/quote]I knew that would come only from you!

How body?

@jerrymania,

Well, there are a lot of things many people assume without first carefully weighing the implications of what they assert. It doesn't matter whether they are Christians or otherwise - even I as a Christian have made bloopers previously, and learnt my lessons gracefully from them.

It is well - I'm also Black, and I know there's no curse upon me!

Proverbs 3:33
The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked:
but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

Proverbs 26:2
As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying,
so the curse causeless shall not come.

lafile:
E make His Holiness, The Most Honourable Rev. Dr. King look like beginner.

Well, wetin person wan talk before? Anything remain to claim from these titles?? --

dot2002:
His Grace, The Most Rev. Prof. Daddy Hezekiah (IOM, LFIBA, DO, DDG, NFNY, DHA, SPD, PHF)

Ganjaseed:
not to talk of these follow follow ignorant Marianist.

We go see sontin for Catholic threads O! From MARIOLATRY to now MARIANIST?!?

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:
The prophet didn't use it during his time, it was introduced to minimize the errors in counting with the hands.

So what happens to those Muslims following these new "introductions"? Did Muslims not claim that "innovations" will send some of them to Hell? Remember when we discussed this "introductions" and "innovations" in the Sufi threads?


_{I wonder why those threads saw the quick exit of Muslims. What were Muslims really scared of in those Sufi threads sef?}

jhibola:
MY GUY I CAN SEE You ARE A XTIAN BUT NOT A GOOD ONE COS CRETICIZING A RELIGION IS NOT D BEST WAY.GO READ UR BIBLE .

Is it not ironic that Muslims not only criticise Christianity; but they go so far as to deride the convictions of Christians? Is that the best way?

@Blackcat,

Blackcat:
Curses are permanent
Punishments are Temporary

All the same, where in Genesis 3 did you read that God "cursed" Adam or Eve?

Blackcat:
These curses are permanent. Not even after the death of Christ were we relieved of the curses.

I'm sorry - but there was no curse on either Adam or Eve to begin with; so how could one be asking for "relief" from something that was not in Genesis 3?

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@Kolokalo: But do not have that word, 'Trinity,' in your Bible! Do you? If you have it, please present the Chapter and Verse.

The word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible but is understood to mean that God has revealed Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You may not like the fact that Muhammad denied the same revelation as given to the OT prophets that God Himself was known as the FATHER (Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16). But what exactly does a denial do to Muhammad other than establish the FACT that he was a false prophet? For if the prophets that preceded him actually knew God as "Father", and Muslims follow Muhammad to deny that FACT, are they not effectively establishing Muhammad as a false prophet already?

olabowale:
And sine you claim that man is three parts, 'Trinity,' could you tell us if the spirit is out of the body, as to have 'died,' will the Body and soul still be alive, in that man? That is, can the man be able to run, jog, eat, talk, etc?

You already know that these are childish questions. You have been invited to the appropriate thread to discuss the components of man - Spirit, Soul and Body - but where have you made an input there? Is it that you already know there's nothing you could offer that is why you are here asking these questions of a simpleton?

olabowale:
@Stillwater: You sensed neither unhappiness nor anger. My Legal representatives are Jews. And so are some of my corporate executives. But the truth be told, my sister!

And the "truth" is what naw. . . that the Jews are ARABS?!?

As for you, ricadelide, abeg make I rush off to my second job. Will get back to you soonest!!

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:
Pilgrim please note that "breath of life" is different from breath. So when you refer to my posts, do so honestly and completely.

I hear you. I have been waiting all this while for you to enunciate the difference between them; but you seemed to be going round in circles and not leading your arguments anywhere. That was why I had to post those rejoinders to help you see that even the idea of a "breath of life does not adequately answer to the precise meaning of the spirit of man.

Would you like to go through my rejoinders again and walk me through what you perceive to be untennable?

Bobbyaf:
All life has the spirit in them.

And what is this "spirit" that they all have? Is it the same thing as enuciated in my rejoinders? Do animals have the FUNCTIONS of the spirit as we have seen so far for man?

Bobbyaf:
When all die that spirit goes back to God who gave it.

But WHAT is the precise and contextual meaning of "spirit?

Bobbyaf:
Someone stated above that man is a spirit. Come on goodly people.

Please try and fault it, abeg. Not this hide-and-seek games naw. . . !!

stillwater:
Do I sense unhappiness or preferably anger?

Or better still. . . "restlessness of spirit" due to unsatisfaction in his own religion?

olabowale:
@Dafidixone: To the children of Israel. Remember the 12 wells/drinking places of the Children of Israel? Each drinking place to each nation? As the 12 nations, remember, uh? There goes your "hypothesis," of nations! It is nothing but the 12 tribes (nations0 of Israel descendants; the benjamite, the Judahrites, before they absorb every one else in the blanketedly known name of Jew!

Please leave the hypothetical dribbling aside and show us where Abraham, Moses or the Israelites were ever called ARABS!! For sure, they were all referred to as the Hebrews - and we find that in the Bible. Take your best shot and find us where they were ever referred to as ARABS!

@Olabowale,

The historical antecedents reported in the Bible in first-personal tenses (which you call "personal statements" clearly show that the events involed real people, with real histories, real feelings, pains and joys. . . as well as real prophecies. That is the beauty of the whole collective testimony of the Bible.

On the other hand the Qur'an is simply the work of Muhammad; and it may interest you to note that Muhammad actually boasted of having "preached, commanded and prohibited" more matters than 'Allah' did in his Qur'an. Do you remember that - or you don't know as much in Islam to have been taught that one?

Now, please help us out here: what was 'Allah' doing that Muhammad was making MORE commandments and prohibitions than his master in the Qur'an? Can you sort that out, hmm?

@olabowale,

olabowale:
But your prayer on me goes to the dustbin!

The Christian prayer does not go to the bin. A Christian I once hated (for simply being a Christian) was busy praying for me for more than 3 years while I took the liberty as a Muslim to deride him unceasingly! What happened to his prayers? God heard, touched my heart - and here I am today: forgiven, born again, and saved!

Never underate the prayer of any Christian - they reach God's very throne!

olabowale:
When I said tribe, I was only referring to the Jewish tribe and you know he was from a tribe before he emagrated out of Iraq! And there was no Jew until Judah's sons forcibly absorbed the other 11 tribes from the Children of Israel! But when i said religion, I meant Judaism and Christianity as religions. He was neither of them! Both of them came after he had passed on.

Well, if you were referring to Abraham, let's understand a few facts:

[list][li]he was not an Arab, nor was he ever associated with Arab culture[/li][/list]

[list][li]he was more attuned to the Jewish line, from which we understand the term "Hebrew" as used for him in the Bible: "Abram the Hebrew" Gen. 14:13[/li][/list]

[list][li]When Moses addressed the Israelites, he did not refer to them as Arabs; but just as Abraham was, Moses addressed them as "Hebrews" - "thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman" - Deut. 15:12[/li][/list]

Perhaps you may have something to show us that either Abraham, or Moses or the Israelites were Quraish - then and only then would you be making sense. Do you care to show us, please?

Bobbyaf:
Declare thyself Moslems!

Perhaps again, since all we ever see is a theory of "recycling", then we may want to recycle the Muslim "prophecy" of Muhammad in Deuteronomy once again!

OlowoTee:
Pastor Olabowale! You're blessed

In Jesus' Name!! Amen again O!

Jeremiah 1:5 -- Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

olabowale:
@Imhotep: The word 'CHURCH,' could never have been mentioned by Jesus son of Virgin Mary! Considering that it was not in the Jewish vocabulary of his time and not even in it, still. Finally considering that he was not 'come,' to destroy the laws of Moses, how then could Church be anything Jesus talked about? It is impossible and you know it!

Actually, Jews during Jesus ministry on earth spoke Greek:

John 19:20
This title then read many of the Jews:
for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city:
and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

Could the Jews then not have understood what Jesus meant by the "CHURCH"? Please do a Bible study, if you care; for the word "church" simply means those called out ["ἐκκλησία "ekklēsia" - Greek; or עדה ‛êdâh - "assembly" in Hebrew equivalent].

Either way, the Jews would clearly have understood Jesus!!

OlowoTee:
Amen somebody please.

A-M-E-N OOO!! 1 million times!!

davidylan:
I see Olabowale is as usual trying to avoid answering the question:

Well, I can see that - it's the "usual" thing now!

Anyhow, @davidylan, how body?

- - - - - -

<sub>PS.

Thanks for the email - I saw it today and will respond soonest! You're absolutely right!!

Cheers.</sub>

@Blackcat,

Blackcat:
Mr chrislam. Please we are not discussing the Koran here but the Bible.

With due respects, I'm not a "chrislam"; nor have I been discussing any other Book than the Bible - please go through my posts and see for yourself, thank you.

Blackcat:
These are curses because Eve and Adam sinned and all where cursed.

The Bible doesn't teach that "ALL were cursed". If you suppose it does, please kindly refer us to the verse, thanks again.

Blackcat:
Would you have preferred if the word 'cursed' was used in every paragraph so that those who are slow to grasp things will know that God was melting out punishment for the wrong done?

It is not what I "prefer" - it all has to rest on what precisely the Bible teaches; and you could help us further by simply walking us through Scripture for your persuasions. The reason why anyone would question your summations is because they find them untennable, and it would be the sane thing for you to demonstrate something more cogent to persuade us.

Besides, you have used the right word there - "punishment" - which is not to be confused for a "curse" as people often do!!

Blackcat:
Curse is defined as:

1. To invoke evil or misfortune upon; damn.
2. To swear at.
3. To bring evil upon; afflict: was cursed with crippling arthritis.
4. Ecclesiastical. To put under a ban or an anathema; excommunicate

Lol. . . look again at your "Ecclesiastical" definition - did God ANATHEMIZE Adam and Eve? If you say "yes", then how could He have come back to clothe them after having "anathemizing" them?

That is why I appeal that you look directly into what the WORD teaches and not what you are submitting as a pretext.

Blackcat:
and after all the curses God drove them out of the garden of Eden because of their sin.

WHERE did God ever CURSE Adam or EVE?

If God wanted to curse them, He would have said so directly - that is why we read in Genesis 3:14 that He directly CURSED the serpent!!

Blackcat:
Genesis 3:24[/color]

24 So[color=#990000] he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Is that the same thing as a "curse"? Notice also that Habakkuk 3:6 states that God also "drove asunder the nations" - did He "curse" the NATIONS asunder as well?