alBHAGDADI:


Yes, the spirit, whether wicked or righteous, will return to God. That's when he sends the righteous into heaven and the wicked into punishment of fire. Or what were you thinking God will do with the spirit?


Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jesus did t have to say it the way you want. The Bible teaches it. The Bible taught about souls facing torment in hell and also how the dead unrighteous will resurrect and remain dead to be judged by God before getting thrown in the fire.

But your failure to admit that hell fire is taught by the Bible is preventing to g you from accepting the truth. GB has really turned you into a robot.

Your little head thinks spirit return means a person returns, When Jesus died and his spirit RETURN, Is he in heaven that time ?

Jozzy4:


Hebrew 11:39 should give you sense . next time you won't say nonsense. They did not receive any promise despite their faith.

Mr failure, do you know how you can know when you're quoting a scripture wrongly? It's when you are trying to use it to come against a bunch of scriptures which are in harmony.

I just gave you a bunch of scriptures in harmony, only for you to come with this one verse to try to rubbish them. That show you are wrong about the verse.


Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What is the promise?

The key is in the next verse which you ignored. The promise which they didn't receive is resurrection in a perfect body before we of today.

So you see, your usage of the verse doesn't say what you want it to say.

Jozzy4:


Your little head thinks spirit return means a person returns, When Jesus died and his spirit RETURN, Is he in heaven that time ?

He went to hell to preach to the souls there.

Jozzy4:


You don't have sense o, its like slotting " Jehovah is Salvation " whenever the name Jesus appear because that its meaning. how will that make sense ?

You are the one who claimed this verses prove hell, then justify the presence of Hands and Legs?
Why bury those parts for people , why not cast them to hell ?

Whenever a person proves not to see, that is the results. I gave you the three different shades of meaning of gehenna and you said the most appropriate is "refuse dump". I have simply fixed your proper translation and you are complaining because you know it doesn't make any sense.

I asked you a simple question: "What is the theological message in the teaching of Jesus in Mk9:42-48? What was Jesus teaching?

Barristter07:


Since you admit everlasting life is a life without death, if someone exist forever in hell , Didn't they have a Never ending LIFE ?

Since their soul and body are in hell getting burnt, which shows they are weak, then you can't say they have eternal life which is characterized by a spiritual body not prone to getting burnt.

Barristter07:


Do those living on earth today HAve LIFE or not ?

First of all tell me how your idea of non-existence after death harmonizes with the verse below which says Abel still speaks despite dieing right after the garden of Eden.

Hebrews 11:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

alBHAGDADI:


This question actually shows why the gospel preached by your organization is false and a work based salvation gospel.

You want to know if Abraham and the Old Testament saints went to heaven without the coming, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Your believe is that one has to believe in Jesus before he or she can make heaven. That means those who died before Jesus came to earth cant make heaven or will have to wait for the resurrection. You are funny.

Do you think salvation started after Jesus Christ came to earth? Mankind has been getting saved from Abel and Abraham's days. Before I explain that, let me first ensure you understand something.

Hope you know the word FAITH mean BELIEVE.

Now, how do we make Heaven or have everlasting life? It is by faith/believe in Jesus who is God.

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Did Abraham believe God?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Did Abel have faith/believe in God?

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

The bolded part above shows that Abel still speaks today despite being dead. That debunks your soul sleep false doctrine and shows that he is alive in heaven.

Below is Paul saying we get saved through faith in God just as Abel, Abraham and the old testament saints did.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All the prophets before the coming of Jesus Christ believed in him and also witnessed about him. Isaiah, David, Moses, Daniel, John the Baptist etc all preached about Jesus which shows they believed in him.

Acts 10:43
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Now, juxtapose what the prophets preached about with the verse below.


John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Clearly, their believe gave them everlasting life which is why they are in heaven. But according to you, they are totally dead and nowhere because you don't believe anyone is in heaven. That means you have called Jesus a liar. Remember he said he will give all those who believe in him everlasting life.

John 10:28 (KJV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The Bible verse below is telling we believers that we have that eternal life now. This means we won't wait till resurrection till we get it. We have it already that is why we go straight to heaven where fellow believers like Abel and Abraham are.

1 John 5:13 (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If we have to go unconscious for a while before getting that eternal life on ressurection day, then the above verse lied when it said we already have it.

Have you been schooled today or the robotic programming of JW couldn't allow you understand my post?

You just keep embarrassing yourself with your continuous show of shame...when you are not sure of something, why not maintain your silence?
Just listen to yourself...Abraham, Isaac and the likes have gone to heaven before Jesus Christ came to the Earth, your fellow brothers are ashame of you.
Read Jesus' own words in John 3:13 and then take a mirror and look at yourself

haywizzy007:
You just keep embarrassing yourself with your continuous show of shame...when you are not sure of something, why not maintain your silence?
Just listen to yourself...Abraham, Isaac and the likes have gone to heaven before Jesus Christ came to the Earth, your fellow brothers are ashame of you.
Read Jesus' own words in John 3:13 and then take a mirror and look at yourself

As usual, when they can't stand a bunch of verses in harmony, they try to use one verse taken out of context to negate one's post.

Your failure is that you didnt read the preceding verse so as to get the context of John 3:13.

Jesus wasn't saying no one has ever been to heaven. Rather, he was saying that no one has gone up there to get heavenly things and brought it back to earth. He says he's the only one who can speak of heavenly things because he's the one who came down from heaven.

John 3:12-13
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Read verse 8-10

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

In verse 8, Jesus was using earthly things to describe heavenly things, yet Nicodemus still couldn't grasp as seen in verse 9.

This made Jesus point out to him in verse 9 that it is awful that Nicodemus being a master of Israel doesn't even understand earthly things.

Finding it difficult to even grasp earthly things, how will he now understand heavenly things which only Jesus brought down from heaven because no man has ascended to heaven on a purpose to go bring such down to earth.

Hope you get it now.

Jozzy4:


The rich man went with his Tongue Hahahaha

So how many corpse have went to hell with their bodies o ? ? ?

You don't know when you are being mocked!
But, On a more serious note: what you have implied is that anywhere the word gehenna is used, it is on literal sense of course which is meaningless within the context of the verse.

I have attached James 3:6

Jam 3:6:
"And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

Is James also speaking about the literal Physical gehenna?

Jozzy4:

Don't be comforted, Barister07 isn't online, When he arrives you will smell your pepper.


No 2 is the meaning of Gehenna, no conscious torment exist there. This is why Jesus keep speaking of physical body in Gehenna, because that's what go there.

You who call it hell, How many physical bodies has dissapear to Hell ? See

You don't know anything like I usually say

Unfortunately for you, as of the time of Jesus, NO ONE throws Living Beings there!

You yourself is referring to Corpse being thrown there. Even your Literal interpretation fail.

Do you think worms survive in the physical literal gehenna?
Think!

Jozzy4:


But Hades and Sheol are the same thing ?

You mean to say Sheol mean Gehenna?
Think and be free!

Barristter07:


The refuse dump is named Gehenna. Corpse of humans are thrown there, so does it make sense now ? Even Jesus listeners can relate.

You who say its HELL, How many people have gone to hell with their two eyes, Two hands as shown in this scripture ?

Do they throw living human beings in the Literal Gehenna or Corpses?
Was Jesus warning Corpses or Living beings?

Barristter07:


Cc: Shadeyinka

Are you saying Sheol is Gehenna?

Jozzy4:


The rich man went with his Tongue Hahahaha

So how many corpse have went to hell with their bodies o ? ? ?

You obviously don't understand when you are being mocked.
Can you answer how many people are in heaven (with or without their bodies).

As a fact,the rich man went with all unrepentant Jehovah's Witness adherents!

alBHAGDADI:


As usual, when they can't stand a bunch of verses in harmony, they try to use one verse taken out of context to negate one's post.

Your failure is that you didnt read the preceding verse so as to get the context of John 3:13.

Jesus wasn't saying no one has ever been to heaven. Rather, he was saying that no one has gone up there to get heavenly things and brought it back to earth. He says he's the only one who can speak of heavenly things because he's the one who came down from heaven.

John 3:12-13
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Read verse 8-10

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

In verse 8, Jesus was using earthly things to describe heavenly things, yet Nicodemus still couldn't grasp as seen in verse 9.

This made Jesus point out to him in verse 9 that it is awful that Nicodemus being a master of Israel doesn't even understand earthly things.

Finding it difficult to even grasp earthly things, how will he now understand heavenly things which only Jesus brought down from heaven because no man has ascended to heaven on a purpose to go bring such down to earth.

Hope you get it now.

@ bolded, you are really a clown...lol
No one has gone to heaven to get Heavenly things and brought it back to the Earth....alBHAGDADI 2019
Heavenly things like what?

alBHAGDADI:


As usual, when they can't stand a bunch of verses in harmony, they try to use one verse taken out of context to negate one's post.

Your failure is that you didnt read the preceding verse so as to get the context of John 3:13.

Jesus wasn't saying no one has ever been to heaven. Rather, he was saying that no one has gone up there to get heavenly things and brought it back to earth. He says he's the only one who can speak of heavenly things because he's the one who came down from heaven.

You mean Jesus was not telling Nicodemus the whole truth? was he deceiving him?
Why do you take pleasure in twisting Jesus' own words?

haywizzy007:
@ bolded, you are really a clown...lol
No one has gone to heaven to get Heavenly things and brought it back to the Earth....alBHAGDADI 2019
Heavenly things like what?

Like the good news. No one ascended to heaven to get it and bring back to earth. Even when Moses when he received the ten commandments and laws didnt ascend to heaven to get it and bring it down. Only Jesus came down from heaven with the heavenly things.

haywizzy007:
You mean Jesus was not telling Nicodemus the whole truth? was he deceiving him?
Why do you take pleasure in twisting Jesus' own words?

This post makes no sense.

Where did I say that Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus the whole truth? You couldn't contradict the post, that's why you just decided to play games by acting as if I stated what I didn't say.

You are just amazed that one of the verses you quote out of context text to deceive people has been busted

The screenshot below can't show where I implied the allegations you have leveled against me.

So clearly, you are just using it to divert attention from obvious loss.

shadeyinka:

Only fake translations would translate the Greek HADES to Grave in Rev 20:13. The interlinear Greek English is presented in the attached picture.

If this is your best answer
Do you now agree that there is not a single passage in the New Testament that refer to or describes the grave as Hell!


Dumb question! A very stupid question.

It's just like saying:
Is it true that the hands of a prisoner go into Prison?

Actually, the word translated to grave in Corinthians 15:55 is Hades. If you read from verse 51 you'll understand better. The Greeks might use the word Hades to mean something else (they were pagans and hell, the idea of an immortal soul is borne out of paganism) but it's used in biblical context as simply grave. In Luke 16:22-23, the Rich man was buried, and in hell (the Greek word used here was Hades) he lifted up his eyes. This is an instance where Hades is translated as hell in the Bible.

alBHAGDADI:


Like the good news. No one ascended to heaven to get it and bring back to earth. Even when Moses when he received the ten commandments and laws didnt ascend to heaven to get it and bring it down. Only Jesus came down from heaven with the heavenly things.

Jesus stated an obvious truth..No man has ascended to heaven Is English language the problem or comprehension Mr. albhagdadi?
Did Jesus Christ ascend to heaven to bring good news?
You are just roping yourself the more..
I'm enjoying this

haywizzy007:
You mean Jesus was not telling Nicodemus the whole truth? was he deceiving him?
Why do you take pleasure in twisting Jesus' own words?

Why do you take pleasure in not understanding the scripture by looking at the surrounding text either

haywizzy007:
Jesus stated an obvious truth..No man has ascended to heaven Is English language the problem or comprehension Mr. albhagdadi?
Did Jesus Christ ascend to heaven to bring good news?
You are just roping yourself the more..
I'm enjoying this

You're the real Olodo....

I wonder why you people will just pick one verse or part of a verse and draw conclusion on it....

Do the previous verses agree with what you're saying?

What is Jesus addressing in his statement before making such point?

haywizzy007:
Jesus stated an obvious truth..No man has ascended to heaven Is English language the problem or comprehension Mr. albhagdadi?
Did Jesus Christ ascend to heaven to bring good news?
You are just roping yourself the more..
I'm enjoying this

When taken out of context, the verse may say what you have pointed out. But when put in context, it doesn't say what you are trying to make it say.

I have explained the context for you using the previous and succeeding verses, but as usual you decide to still cling to how JW deceived you with that one verse which they took out of context.

And to your question, Jesus didn't ascend to heaven to bring good news. He came down from heaven with it. That's why he said no man ascended to bring it down, that he's the one that brought it down from heaven.

If man could go up to heaven to get it, then Jesus won't have come down with it.

Emusan:


Why do you take pleasure in not understanding the scripture by looking at the surrounding text either

He's sees the truth but doesn't want to accept it because it will mean an end to his believe in his organization. So he stylishly rejects it by throwing diversive questions.

Emusan:


You're the real Olodo....

I wonder why you people will just pick one verse or part of a verse and draw conclusion on it....

Do the previous verses agree with what you're saying?

What is Jesus addressing in his statement before making such point?

Show us how the surrounding verses contradict the words of Jesus Christ..

alBHAGDADI:


When taken out of context, the verse may say what you have pointed out. But when put in context, it doesn't say what you are trying to make it say.

I have explained the context for you using the previous and succeeding verses, but as usual you decide to still cling to how JW deceived you with that one verse which they took out of context.

And to your question, Jesus didn't ascend to heaven to bring good news. He came down from heaven with it. That's why he said no man ascended to bring it down, that he's the one that brought it down from heaven.

If man could go up to heaven to get it, then Jesus won't have come down with it.

You are now making sense @bolded
Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses and co falls under the category of "no man"
Before Jesus Christ came, no man born of woman has been to heaven..They were all in the grave

haywizzy007:
You are now making sense @bolded
Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses and co falls under the category of "no man"
Before Jesus Christ came, no man born of woman has been to heaven..They were all in the grave

What kind of daft fellow is this?

Where did I say no man ascended to heaven? I only said no man ascended to heaven to bring good news down to earth. This means all those who ascended didn't go for the purpose of bring good news down to earth, that's why they remain in heaven.

According to your understanding of the verse, Jesus was the only one who ascended to heaven during his time, which must have been before his death, burial and resurrection. Now, tell us when did he ascended to heaven before he died

Failure to answer the question will show you why you got the verse wrong.

Oya answer.

alBHAGDADI:


What kind of daft fellow is this?

Where did I say no man ascended to heaven? I only said no man ascended to heaven to bring good news down to earth. This means all those who ascended didn't go for the purpose of bring good news down to earth, that's why they remain in heaven.

According to your understanding of the verse, Jesus was the only one who ascended to heaven during his time, which must have been before his death, burial and resurrection. Now, tell us when did he ascended to heaven before he died

Failure to answer the question will show you why you got the verse wrong.

Oya answer.

According to my understanding..lol
You are sha trying hard to put what i did not say into my mouth, Jesus only ascended to heaven after his death..

Jesus said "No man has ascended to heaven"

alBHAGDADI said "No man has ascended to heaven to bring good news down to the earth
We all know who the crook is

haywizzy007:
Show us how the surrounding verses contradict the words of Jesus Christ..

Answer the questions I asked first

Is that how you were taught in school?

alBHAGDADI:


He's sees the truth but doesn't want to accept it because it will mean an end to his believe in his organization. So he stylishly rejects it by throwing diversive questions.

Couple with lack of comprehension

Imagine hammering on that particular phrase

That's how you'll know that they lack scriptural understanding

haywizzy007:
According to my understanding..lol
You are sha trying hard to put what i did not say into my mouth, Jesus only ascended to heaven after his death..

You didn't have to say it, but imply it.

You are now trying to deny the implication of what you have been hammering on.

Jesus said "No man has ascended to heaven"

alBHAGDADI said "No man has ascended to heaven to bring good news down to the earth
We all know who the crook is

That's Jesus word in one verse.

But my word explains the context of the passage which contains more than one verse. It's even in harmony with commentaries below.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/3-13.htm

I believe you understood me clearly. But in order for you to dodge the question which would have exposed you, you decided to give this silly reply.

Hope you are not one of those fooled by GB that higher education is evil. Because I'm surprised that you lack comprehension skills.

DeOTR:

Actually, the word translated to grave in Corinthians 15:55 is Hades. If you read from verse 51 you'll understand better. The Greeks might use the word Hades to mean something else (they were pagans and hell, the idea of an immortal soul is borne out of paganism) but it's used in biblical context as simply grave. In Luke 16:22-23, the Rich man was buried, and in hell (the Greek word used here was Hades) he lifted up his eyes. This is an instance where Hades is translated as hell in the Bible.

Thank you for your nice reply.
1. I tried to look up 1Cor 15:55 and I see that the word used as death and Grave. Incidentally, the same word θάνατε transliterated [i ]thanate [/i] was used and and not Hades.
1Cor 15:55:
"O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
The interlinear translation is attached for you to see. I don't know why[i] thanate[/i] was translated as Grave.
2. Yes, the grave might use pagan ideas but don't forget that Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic and not Hebrew nor Greek during his time (even though Aramaic and Hebrew are slightly related).
BUT, the writers of the new testament were Jews who use Greek as a medium of written communication. They wouldn't put pagan ideas as words of Christ.
You will notice that a few Aramaic even were used within the Greek Scripture eg. Raca (fool) is originally Aramaic but is used in the Greek text as such. The authors knew what they were doing.

No one has the right to assume the the power to rewrite the Greek text to suit any other thing than what the Greek text say.
3. The idea of an immortal soul wasn't a pagan idea. There is no where in the old testament where the idea of judgement of sin after death is preached. But Jesus emphasized it seriously throughout his ministry. Most of what we know about hell as a place of judgement was actually from Jesus. Remember that the Sadducees took it to an extreme is saying that there is no resurrection of the dead.

There are several Scriptures to show that death isn't an unconscious state. e.g.
Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain [/b]for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [b]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

4. In Luke 16:23-24
Hades was used as you have rightly said. And a translation fraudulently translated the Hades to Grave even though the word GRAVE occurs in the Greek as τάφος. This further reinforces the idea that if the writers meant to use the word grave, it existed in the Greek and they would have used it rather than Gehenna or Hades or Tartarus. There are at least 7 instances that I can recall where Hades was used in the Greek NT and translated as Hell.

There is no way Hades could have been translated to mean grave and the context wouldn't be affected negatively.