Blabbermouth:

From this answer, I hope you have been able to convince yourself and not confuse yourself that Foreknowledge and predestination cannot be 100% untangled or separated. Simply put, foreknowledge is a function of predetermination.

Blabbermouth:

We both agree to the fact that an unconscious foetus cannot CHOOSE for itself. You then said God (even before the foetus became conscious of its existence) foreknows already where the foetus will end.

Blabbermouth:

1. From the case study of God and an unconscious foetus, in all extremities only the two of them have the ability to predestine where the foetus will end

Blabbermouth:

2. Unfortunately, the foetus is unconscious and unable to CHOOSE and that leaves us with only two option
I. Where the future of the foetus is blank- God knows not if he will end up in hell or heaven

Blabbermouth:

II. Where the other subject I.e. God, using his predetermining ability to choose for the foetus itself.

Blabbermouth:

3. In a twist of Complication, God(at every point in time) is omniscient and thus know where the foetus must end
4. Again, the foetus cannot choose for itself yet, but somehow the omniscient God knows where it will end

Blabbermouth:

5. We are left with II as the only possible way for God knowing a foetus' future to be plausible
6. The omniscient God himself predestined the foetus' eternal abode.

Blabbermouth:

Unfortunately, "time machine" does not exist, can not exist, and can never be applicable to real life or imaginary scenarios.
So, the question is invalid to me.

shadeyinka:
You are back to square-one simply because it hadn't dawn on you that God is NOT subject to time and the fact that your mind seem made up as only one answer (your view) will satisfy you irrespective of logic or explanations.

That is why it is impossible for you to answer the questions I posed to you even though it was harmlessly hypothetical. In the realm of man, time machines DO NOT exist. But in the realm of God, this is NOT an impossibility. It is not difficult to objectively answer the questions.

It violates the character of God, for God is JUST.

If God made you incapable of righteousness is it then just for him to judge you?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But you have deliberately ignored the fact that God created time and as such cannot be subject to time.
This made you also ignore the existence of freewill. God can move anywhere in time: in human language, we'll call it time travel

The foetus CANNOT determine anything. He has to grow up and make decisions based on choices while constrained by his environment.

It is wickedness to flog a puppy because it cannot recite A to Z.

This is your view and not mine that God could be ignorant.

This is logically incoherent and also your view, not mine. You are saying in other words that sine the future of the foetus is initially blank, God has to determine its future.

Unfortunately, this train of thought shows that God is directly responsible for the wickedness and evil on the earth.

Why would God give laws and commandments when he has already cast our future in stone?

Your number 1and 2 (even though wrong) does not logically flow with your 3 and 4.

Logical sequences must be immutable facts on which deduction based on the consequence of the logical sequences are arrived at.

Wrong conclusion!. God can move in time. Can you see why you couldn't answer my questions?

Wehdone Sir
Aw, what an admirable blow for blow know-the-answer responses to Blabbermouth's.
You both are doing well. Wehdone again shadeyinka and same to Blabbermouth for putting up a good fight, albeit getting a good hiding from shadeyinka in reward and/or for his trouble

shadeyinka:
I suspect you are a JW; in such manners they argue.

shadeyinka:
The summary of what you've said is that
1. God predestined you to commit fornication so that He can claim a foreknowledge of it and there is nothing you could have done to change it.
2. God gave a command "don't commit fornication" even though He knows that he has compelled you by predestination to commit fornication.
3. God is waiting with his rod of judgement to you for doing exactly what he has predestined you to do.
Does the three points above paint the picture of your God?

Blabbermouth:
Since time immemorial, man had always and will always continue to attribute what he cannot do and isn't capable of as part of God's sovereign ability.
Even if there are many many denominations in Christianity, I believe every of them agree that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. We don't have issues with the last 2 Omni - (for now) , so we will just concentrate on the first one. While this omniscient attribute is sweet to the ears, I want to know if God himself actually claimed/said that he "knows the future".
The floor is open, I don't want substance less opinions and replies invented from what you feel is true or right, instead;
GIVE YOUR ANSWER
DROP SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT YOUR ANSWER
EXPLAIN HOW THE SCRIPTURE PROVES THAT GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.
Cc: Kobojunkie, Maximus69, Jesusjnr2020, MuttleyLaff, Shadeyinka, solite3, budaatum, sonmvayina, Hiswordxray

MuttleyLaff:


Wehdone Sir
Aw, what an admirable blow for blow know-the-answer responses to Blabbermouth's.
You both are doing well. Wehdone again shadeyinka and same to Blabbermouth for putting up a good fight, albeit getting a good hiding from shadeyinka in reward and/or for his trouble

[s]Nah, suspect is as far as it'll go, as Blabbermouth is somewhere on the atheism-agnosticism spectrum[/s]
Apparently he smells JW

Wow, but Blabbermouth doesn't like responding to diagnostic questions such as the above three. He didnt give responses to my similar much earlier set of questions

Fairbanks:


God knew since he made u in ur mum's womb that u will even write this post, but as the matter of eternity, God leaves it as choice for human to choose.

shadeyinka:

That is why it is impossible for you to answer the questions I posed to you even though it was harmlessly hypothetical. In the realm of man, time machines DO NOT exist. But in the realm of God, this is NOT an impossibility. It is not difficult to objectively answer the questions.

It violates the character of God, for God is JUST.

If God made you incapable of righteousness is it then just for him to judge you?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But you have deliberately ignored the fact that God created time and as such cannot be subject to time.
This made you also ignore the existence of freewill. God can move anywhere in time: in human language, we'll call it time travel
Why would God give laws and commandments when he has already cast our future in stone?

I suspect you are a JW; in such manners they argue.

The summary of what you've said is that
1. God predestined you to commit fornication so that He can claim a foreknowledge of it and there is nothing you could have done to change it.
2. God gave a command "don't commit fornication" even though He knows that he has compelled you by predestination to commit fornication.
3. God is waiting with his rod of judgement to you for doing exactly what he has predestined you to do.

Does the three points above paint the picture of your God?

MuttleyLaff:

[size=5pt]Wow, but Blabbermouth doesn't like responding to diagnostic questions such as the above three. He didnt give responses to my similar much earlier set of questions too[/size]

Blabbermouth:

All these indicates that something very essential is missing, that's why things are not adding up.

For starters, many have a wrong perception about TIME itself... Like I said, a vital piece of information is missing.

Far from it, more of a slave of Christ and of the LORD God.



God forbid!
These 3 above are inevitable consequences one must deal with if your answer was 100% true. All I did was force them out of their hiding place and made them show their ugly heads and the kind of pain they can be in the ass.
Sometimes you see, we must diverge in order to converge. We sometimes have no choice to disagree in order to agree.

shadeyinka:

No sir, you are the one not seeing your logical errors

Your claims:
1. God CANNOT see the future BUT He can Only Predestine and Make things to be.
2. The apparent Foreknowledge of God is based on this Predestination.

My claims:
1. God IS ABLE to see the future (in real time) AND He Only Predestine and on the basis of what He has seen the person do.
2. The Foreknowledge of God is INDEPENDENT of His Predestination.

Example Inevitable Consequence of YOUR CLAIMS:

The summary of what you've said is that
1. God predestined you to commit fornication so that He can claim a foreknowledge of it and there is nothing you could have done to change it.
2. God gave a command "don't commit fornication" even though He knows that he has compelled you by predestination to commit fornication.
3. God is waiting with his rod of judgement to you for doing exactly what he has predestined you to do.

Does the three points above paint the picture of your God?

Example Inevitable Consequence of MY CLAIMS:

The summary of what I've said is that
1. God foreknew that you commited fornication BUT you could have changed what God would have seen by your present Choices. (If you chose NOT to commit fornication, that exactly is what God would have seen)
2. God gave a command "don't commit fornication" because He knows that you Determine what you'll Do with your life.
3. God is waiting with his rod of judgement to you for going against His words to do what you've been told not to do.

Does the three points above paint the picture of your God?

The above sounds a little like my God. My God is just. If I have been created to go to hell, my rough life is just what I've been programmed to do by God AND I am in fact living perfectly according to His will for me.

Blabbermouth:
ShadeYinka and MuttleyLaff, I will like to ask a set of rhetorical questions:
1. Does God know who created him?
2. Does God know who can kill him?
3. Can God create a being higher and greater than himself?
4. Does God know any being stronger, mightier and wiser than him?

I know my answer is the same as yours but I don't want to be too forward.

Blabbermouth:
ShadeYinka and MuttleyLaff, I will like to ask a set of rhetorical questions:
1. Does God know who created him?
2. Does God know who can kill him?
3. Can God create a being higher and greater than himself?
4. Does God know any being stronger, mightier and wiser than him?
I know my answer is the same as yours but I don't want to be too forward.

MuttleyLaff:
I sense you aren't after any answers if you are asking rhetorical questions then, but I'll indulge you

1/ God is the first and last cause. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. There is. nothing ever created, that is not created by Him. God is Self Existent, meaning nothing and no one created God

2/God is Omni know everything. There is nothing hidden from God's know or knowledge. You seem to be trapped in the trinity box, that is why you are asking all these incongruous discordant or irreconcilable questions

3/ God is trinity and more. God is infinity. God is unknown number of persons. Now watch this Blabbermouth, as God has infinite power, if God should create a being higher and greater than Himself, instantly God becomes a being higher and greater than the being He's just created higher and greater than Himself, and we are back to square one and an endless loop

4/ God knows there is no other being stronger, mightier and wiser than Him

Blabbermouth:
ShadeYinka and MuttleyLaff, I will like to ask a set of rhetorical questions:
1. Does God know who created him?
2. Does God know who can kill him?
3. Can God create a being higher and greater than himself?
4. Does God know any being stronger, mightier and wiser than him?
I know my answer is the same as yours but I don't want to be too forward.

shadeyinka:

The questions may be rhetoric but illogical and senseless.

God is the Uncaused First-cause of everything.

Your question is like a car asking a fellow car how many litters of Engine oil and Petrol a human being consume per annum and at what mileage do they do their turn around service/maintenance.

Blabbermouth:
Thank God, we are one here.
Many people will agree that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and all. While that is true, there is something we must put aright or else, we might Cross that Line.
God is cannot be limited by Trinity, no! In fact, He cannot be limited to a person. Nothing except 1 thing can limit God, the only thing that Limits God himself is God's nature.
God is omnipotent but he cannot Lie! (the scripture says so!)
God is omnipotent but he cannot be unfaithful (the scripture says so!)
God is Omnipotent but he cannot fornicate! (No believer will say otherwise!)
Humans however, even though we are nothing close to being omnipotent can easily Lie, easily be unfaithful and fornication na smalls.
God's omnipotence cannot exceed his nature! Therefore God is omnipotent as long as it is within the confines of WHO HE IS, beyond His nature, God is not omnipotent!
So the popular atheistic question of - "If God is omnipotent, can He create a being greater than him" is answered automatically without any loophole. Who is God? God is the Most High! Creating a being Higher than him will mean we now have a new Most High, and thus, God is no longer who he is (God forbid!).

Blabbermouth:
Like I said, God is omnipotent but only within the confines of his own nature (Who He is!)...
Maximus69, ShadeYinka and Sir MuttleyLaff, do you believe this true and consistent with the word of God?
Now, let's talk about Omniscience and knowing the future.

Blabbermouth:

Where did I make this claims?! Hey sir, I've not claimed ANYTHING since the beginning of the thread.

There is a line no one must cross when it comes to scriptural and spiritual things in general, this line is also a line that God himself does not cross... That's the line of "WHO GOD IS".. If God says He is JUST, even if Peter comes down from heaven and paints God as an UNJUST God, then Peter himself just said something that is 100% False. If God says He CANNOT LIE.. If you hear anyone, even if he is apostle Paul, claiming that God at one point or the other Lied to someone, then that person (Apostle or no Apostle) just said something that is 100% false.
I'm not bothered about doctrines of tithe, trinity, grace and the likes... As long as you don't cross the line, then I can accommodate your stance.
Your answer to my question crossed that line. You tried salvaging it to accommodate who God is but I showed you without bias that your answer will make God Unjust and His Judgement Untrue.
When God says that He created Lucifer perfect, know for sure that God actually created Lucifer perfect.
Have you heard many people ask this troubling question - Why did God create Lucifer knowing that will fall and cause so much Kasala?
Nobody will be able to answer this question perfectly without a very vital piece info. Without that piece, no matter your answer, you will cross that line.

Blabbermouth:

I find it hard that despite being very obvious, people hate to admit that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE that A certain man will go to Hell cannot be separated from His PREDESTINATION...
See this..
God peeped into Bryan's future and he saw that Bryan will go to hell, what/who is the agent responsible for Bryan ending up in hell? Is it Bryan or is it God?
Your answer will help me to show you that it is impossible to disconnect God's foreknowledge from predestination.

Blabbermouth:

It seems you are the only person that understands (at least, you are not pretending not to know) what I've been saying since.

shadeyinka:

Gods Foreknowledge is NOT about what you will do but it's a Foreknowledge of what you did. You may change your mind 100 times (and you have the power to do that) and then make a choice (you have the power to do that also). But what did God foresee?
He foresaw your 100 change of mind and your eventual choice. Whatever your choices and actions were, that was what God saw.

Anyone who can travel in TIME should have a form of Foreknowledge!


You can with your freewill decide anything for your daughter and whatever your choice you do. But God has foreseen YOUR change of mind and YOUR eventual choice.

The Eventual Power to CHANGE the course of YOUR future is in YOUR hands by YOUR choices (not God). This is a direct consequence of FREEWILL!

Squillaci:

He know what will happen because He can make it happen at that time without any hindrance.

Blabbermouth:

You are 100% right here.

Blabbermouth:

Alright. I just posted something, is it consistent with the Word of God?

shadeyinka:

No your questions were not consistent with God's word nor even logical

Blabbermouth:
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Hey, hey, hey beloved, there is something we are not seeing clearly here. Read that scripture again but this time, in-between the lines and see where God used the word "DECLARE"... Also, take note of where God is declaring the end from. Is God declaring the end from the beginning or is he declaring the end from the end?
God himself said- Declaring the end from the BEGINNING!
There is a big difference in
I. Declaring the end from the beginning
II. Declaring the end from the end
This might not seem so important for now but it soon will be. Permit me Sir MuttleyLaff to use your illustration of a football match.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I and ShadeYinka watched a live closed final match of Sevilla and Inter Milan (Note: A football match begins at time 0:00 and stops officially at 90:00), and by 90 minutes, Sevilla won Inter-milan 3 goals to 2.
While cruising today, Sir MuttleyLaff came and switched the channel to supersport and watched the same final match we have watched already a day before. Shade then said to Muttley, "Hey bobo, Sevilla will win this match and lift the cup. In fact, the scores will be 3-2"... Voila, Sevilla won and magically (to sir Muttley) the scores ended 3-2.
Over here, Shade just declared the end of the match. However, where is Shade declaring(this is actually foreknowledge, not declaration though) it from? Is it from the beginning or from the end?
No! Shade was not declaring the end from the beginning, He was declaring the end from THE END!
Shade Has gotten to the 90:00 of the match and that was why his foreknowledge was accurate!
But God in this verse is saying, Hey, Hey, Hey, I will DECLARE what will happen at 90:00 minute right from 0:00 minute!
Declaring the end from the beginning is not watching a live match and knowing what will happen at the end. No! It is actually starting from 0:00 (with no prior information whatsoever) and telling the person next to you that the score will (in fact, it MUST) be 3-2 by 90:00 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, I don't want to be too forward, so let me ask; What is the difference between DECLARING and FOREKNOWING?

shadeyinka:

Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

The true picture is more like: Using a time machine shadeyinka and Blabbermouth watched the match 3 days before it was played. Hence from the beginning well before the match was to start. We can be accurate in relating the match to Muttley.

Only with this will it not negate the quality of the righteousness of God

Blabbermouth:

It seems you are getting emotional sir. For;
1. What I asked you to verify was not a question
2. You've been imposing what I haven't claimed to be mine...
All in all though, you will know where I stand soon.

Blabbermouth:

If you understand it better like this, no problem. If I used a time machine and I went to the end of the match, then I know the match result FROM THE END, not FROM THE BEGINNING.
However, God said - Declaring the end from the Beginning!

shadeyinka:


Do you mean that God has Foreordained some people to be evil?

Do this simple practical...

Look at the time now (it's about 2:10pm), now tell someone in the room that the following would have happened about 2:15pm

1. Your phone will be switched off

2. You will be in the other room

3. You won't be putting on any shirt

Tell the person to check the time and confirm that everything happened 5 minute later just as you said 5 minute ago.

(While the person is doing the countdown, switch off your phone, off your shirt and move to another room)

So, by 2:15pm, everything should be just as you said 5 minutes ago.

What did you just do?

Is that you knowing the future?

Blabbermouth:

Relax sir, we will get there.

Blabbermouth:
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Hey, hey, hey beloved, there is something we are not seeing clearly here. Read that scripture again but this time, in-between the lines and see where God used the word "DECLARE"... Also, take note of where God is declaring the end from. Is God declaring the end from the beginning or is he declaring the end from the end?
God himself said- Declaring the end from the BEGINNING!
There is a big difference in
I. Declaring the end from the beginning
II. Declaring the end from the end
This might not seem so important for now but it soon will be.

Blabbermouth:
Permit me Sir MuttleyLaff to use your illustration of a football match.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I and ShadeYinka watched a live closed final match of Sevilla and Inter Milan (Note: A football match begins at time 0:00 and stops officially at 90:00), and by 90 minutes, Sevilla won Inter-milan 3 goals to 2.
While cruising today, Sir MuttleyLaff came and switched the channel to supersport and watched the same final match we have watched already a day before. Shade then said to Muttley, "Hey bobo, Sevilla will win this match and lift the cup. In fact, the scores will be 3-2"... Voila, Sevilla won and magically (to sir Muttley) the scores ended 3-2.
Over here, Shade just declared the end of the match. However, where is Shade declaring(this is actually foreknowledge, not declaration though) it from? Is it from the beginning or from the end?
No! Shade was not declaring the end from the beginning, He was declaring the end from THE END!
Shade Has gotten to the 90:00 of the match and that was why his foreknowledge was accurate!
But God in this verse is saying, Hey, Hey, Hey, I will DECLARE what will happen at 90:00 minute right from 0:00 minute!
Declaring the end from the beginning is not watching a live match and knowing what will happen at the end. No! It is actually starting from 0:00 (with no prior information whatsoever) and telling the person next to you that the score will (in fact, it MUST) be 3-2 by 90:00 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Blabbermouth:
Again, I don't want to be too forward, so let me ask; What is the difference between DECLARING and FOREKNOWING?