FOLYKAZE:
Once again Muttley, please you need to take verbal abuses away from your posts. Be cool! You weren't like this before.

There you go again. Have you got proof of me instigating verbal abuses or its you just making a mischievous allegation.

Be cool kọ, be kulikuli ni. I suffer others gladly, but I wont suffer and roll over for you playing the negative psychology trick card here and fyi, I have always being like this towards unrepentant jerks and arseholes delighting in their ignorance(s)
You aren't my dad, you aren't my missus, you don't feed me, you don't shelter me, I don't live under you, so who the foxtrot, uniform, charlie kilo makes you think, you can keep on goading me with your sneaky and subtle slides shades, hmm?

Go over the thread, review it, to check to see and find out, who that lives in a glass house, starts throwing stone first before I reciprocate with same size, if not bigger. Stick to whats being discussed, instead of always looking to throw a veiled shade and whine

FOLYKAZE:
Back to your response. According to the Tower of Babel stele, Nebuchadnezzar II, maybe after God dispersed them or physically damaged from past wars, expanded and completed the tower. That tower of babel of then is now known as Etemenanki.

Without mincing words, Etemenanki was a physical structure according to Gen 11:5

FOLYKAZE:


Chief, una go dey pay me for the video links una dey drop here. I mean, it has no correlation with Etemenanki. It only mention that temple is the link between heaven and earth. Astronomy, as Etemenanki is concerned has to do with planet, stars, galaxy, moon and cosmos.

jamesid29
Ha, I see where some of the misunderstandings comes from;Because of the statement of heaven and earth. The thing is your thinking of it through the lens of a 21st century person. Ancient people had a different understanding of what that means... Its a different rabbit hole though.
Hope some of this materials might help..

You didn't read it too well.

This is what he said below:

After this she built in the centre of the city a temple of Zeus whom, as we have said, the Babylonians call Belus. Now since with regard to this temple the historians are at variance, and since time has caused the structure to fall into ruins, it is impossible to give the exact facts concerning it. But all agree that it was exceedingly high, and that in it the Chaldaeans made their observations of the stars, whose risings and settings could be accurately observed by reason of the height of the structure

Haaaaaa

Deut 32:8
The unrevised text would have read thus:
בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם בְּהַפְרִידֹו בְּנֵי אָדָם
יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי שֹׁר־אֵל
וַיְהִי חֵלֶק יהוה עַמֹּו יַעֲקֹב חֶבֶל נַחֲלָתֹו
When Elyon gave the nations an inheritance,
when he divided humankind,
he set the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of El’s children,
and Yahweh’s portion was his people,
Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

That verse shows clearly that when human were evolving, Gods too were not excluded. Jehovah is the son of El, the supreme God of canaanites. He inherited Israel, not an original owner from El. The Urgarit text exposes that large parts of the bible is copied from ancient civilizations like Canaan and others.

Read more abeg

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm
https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm




The Bible spearhead propaganda against Babylon, Canaan and other ancient civilizations. It did this through falsehood, exaggerations, and expansion of unfounded fallacy.

FOLYKAZE:


Thanks for the brilliant inputs sir. But sincerely, they really do not address my stance. If you may have forgotten sir, I stated that there is no evidence of spiritual significance of Etemenanki. And Esagali is the only shrine where occultic activities, worship of Marduk and his consort, and rituals take place. You've agreed that Esagali is the shrine, and that there is no shrine in Etemenanki. I said, "The absence of evidence, signifying that Marduk is worshipped in Etemenanki stamped down all spiritual attributions to the tower. If you are concluding there is a spiritual significance to that tower, tell us firstly what you meant by spiritual significance, also tell us with evidences if there are shrines on the tower.

jamesid29:
The basic idea is this: The ziggurat is the meeting point between heaven and earth (the center of spiritual cosmic geography), the temple is where the gods dwell. As I pointed out in my previous post

To understand how this works is to understand that a ziggurat was not built for men to go up to heaven but for God to come down to earth and to reside in their midst in the temple

All the three so called evidences you presented arr misleading

As a matter of fact, it doesn't prove Marduk is worshipped on the tower. The Tower does not hold Marduk's images, none is sacrifices done on it.

1. I have the pdf copy of the Enuma Elish, translated by Benjamin R Foster. I read a volume yesterday night before I slept off.

Tablet IV, volume III, line 40-65
(Marduk divides the gods of heaven and netherworld. The gods build Esagila, Marduk's temple in Babylon)

To Marduk their Lord they said,
"Now, Lord, you who have liberated us,
" What courtesy may we do you?
"We will make a shrine, whose name will be a byword,
"Your chamber that shall be our stopping place,
We shall find rest therein.
"We shall lay out the shrine, let us see up its emplacement,
" When we come (to visit you), we shall find rest therein"
When Marduk heard this,
His features glowed brightly, like the day.
"Then made Babylon the task that you requested,
" Let its brickwork be found, build high the shrine"
The Anunna-gods set to with hoes,
One (full) year they made the bricks.
When the second year come,
They raised the head of Esagila¹, the counterpart of Apsu
They built the upper Ziggurat of Apsu²

i. Wordplay on the name of Marduk's temple (House whose head is high)
ii. Esagila is therefore a counterpart or replica of the abode of Ea (Apsu) and the abode of Enhil. (https://lucian.uchicago.edu/blogs/csar/files/2011/03/Seri-Enuma-elish.pdf)

a. In the translation you posted and another translation I posted above, Etemenanki was not mentioned.

jamesid
"The decipherment of the E-sangil Tablet confirmed most commentators in the view that the mythical Tower of Babel was a memory of a real building, a staged temple-tower that the Babylonians knew by the Sumerian ceremonial name of E-temen-anki ‘House of the Foundation Platform of Heaven and Underworld’. Apart from the E-sangil Tablet, the cuneiform evidence for E-temen-anki under this name comprises the inscriptions of royal builders, a mention in the poem of Erra, appearance in the litany of temple names of Babylon and other cities that regularly occurs in first-millennium copies of liturgical texts, and entries in scholarly lists of temples, temple gates and other sacred locations To these must be added (a) the reference to Marduk and Zarpan¬tu of é.te.me.en.an.ki (var. é.te.me.na.an.ki) in Late Babylonian copies of a cultic
calendar (BRM IV 25 // SBH VII, ed. Unger 1931: 260-1) and (b) an entry in the list of seven seats of Marduk collected in one of the scholarly compendia of heptads: ·u-batdb∂l(en) ·á é.te.me.[en.an.ki] ‘seat of B∂l in E-temen-[anki]’ "

b. The title tells us about the body of the poem, Marduk divides the gods, the gods built Esagila. It never mention Etemenanki

c. The first emboldened statement indicates the Shrine, Esagila was proposed to be high. Not too high as a tower, but higher than normal low level structures.

FOLYKAZE
i. Wordplay on the name of Marduk's temple (House whose head is high)

d. The second emboldened statement tells us that the head of Esagila was raised high, and as such was called Ziggurat . Ziggurat implies a massive structure with a successively receding stories or levels. Calling Esagila Ziggurat doesn't make it Etemenanki.

e. The footnote (²), tells that the Ziggurat mentioned in Enuma Elish is Esagila. If it was Etemenanki, it would have been mentioned in the footnote.

f. Enuma Elish didnt mention "a tower with its top to heaven", it simply says the gods raised the top of Esagila. Since it tops doesn't reach heaven, it is not Etemenanki.

2. TOWER OF BABEL STELE doesn't specifically mentioned the spiritual significance of Etemenanki. I have read the complete details of the text on Schoyen Collection website still nothing speaks about Etemenanki been the worship centre of or serving as a shrine for Marduk.

https://www.schoyencollection.com/history-collection-introduction/babylonian-history-collection/tower-babel-stele-ms-2063

3. Nothing in the Esagila tablet indicates the spiritual significance of the Etemenanki. The tablet can be divided into two. One part is about Esagila (the temple of the god Marduk in Babylon) recorded by the scribes are two courtyards built earlier than the temple. The rest of the tablet concerns the ziggurat, Etemenanki, and is extremely valuable for its reconstruction, presenting a complex mathematical analysis of how the tower should be.

https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/esagila-tablet

Please sir, You had wanted me to see spiritual significance of Etemenanki, when there is none. Even in your presented "evidences", there is no enough convincing evidence to prove that Etemenanki serves as shrine, or worship centre of Marduk. There is no evidence of spiritual significance of the tower. The absence of evidence, signifying that Marduk is worshipped in Etemenanki stamped down all spiritual attributions to the tower.

Firstly please let's have the picture of Etemenanki and Esagila here
[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSAzF8cytHLEyCydU-dhY0_5wAXRwlEFcUFsQ&usqp=CAU.jpg[/img]

1&3. From the picture, Etemenanki is the huge structure, and Esaliga is that little high building adjacent of the tower by the south. There is a stair from the Tower leading to Esaliga. Another stair leads to the large procession pathway. However, they are both standalone structure. Though connected, [/b]the Shrine is not inside or on top of Etemenanki.

jamesid29
[b]Etemenanki was connected with Esagila by a triple gate. A larger gate in the east connected the Etemenanki with the sacred procession road(all this is confirmed by archeological works). I was very careful about my language in my previous post so you don't conflat my words. If you check my post, I was always specific that the ziggurat was part of the temple complex... Because it's usually a complex and not just one building.


To be clear though, like everything in the world, temple complexes are not born equal. Different cities,rulers etc different how it's done; but the idea is usually the same; There's a temple and there's a ziggurat.

For Babylon Even though asides from the ground temple structure (esagila in this case), we have multiple literatures and drawings that point to a temple top also(Herodotus is not our only source)

2. Esarhaddon also known as Asarhaddon claimed he built Esagila, and his claim was corroborated with the writings on the wall of the shrine, as found by Stefan Maul. http://prelectur.stanford.edu/lecturers/maul/ancientcapitals.html

This isn't about the person of Diodorus, but much about his writings about the astronomical values of the tower.

He wrote:
After this she built in the centre of the city a temple of Zeus whom, as we have said, the Babylonians call Belus. Now since with regard to this temple the historians are at variance, and since time has caused the structure to fall into ruins, it is impossible to give the exact facts concerning it. But all agree that it was exceedingly high, and that in it the Chaldaeans made their observations of the stars, whose risings and settings could be accurately observed by reason of the height of the structure

The emboldened justify my stand that the tower aided astronomy and space exploration.

jamesid29
Ok so as mentioned before, that quote comes from only Diodorus Siculus. But let me get something straight, the very same place that quote comes from also mention Herodotus who actually lived during the time when the the ziggurat was still standing and considered as the father of modern history as opposed to Diodorus who lived 100s of years after Alexander destroyed the whole thing. You were the very same person that said we can't trust Herodotus words by quoting a very minute part of an entire wiki paragraph and I didn't even argue with you on that we have other ancient mesopotamia sources that says that also, now wants us to trust the words of another greek writer (Diodorus) who lived 100s of years later and we have no other ancient source(not a single one) that attest to what he said and thousands of literatures that say otherwise? How does that work?

MuttleyLaff:


Smh, you didn't deemed it worthy enough, to go over with a fine tooth comb, the above post of mine you have mentioned above. Instead of addressing the cogent points in the post, you instead are behaving like gramophone playing an old classic evergreen popular record but with its needle got stuck on Genesis 11:5

I have for umpteenth times, advanced that Genesis 11:5, is a thought, an imagination, a wish, an idea on paper, yet to physically materialise. The plans to circa Genesis 11:2-9, structurally build the tower, never materialised. It never became actual or real, was never realised nor carried out because God disrupted the plan by throwing a spanner in the works, preventing what they planned build, by causing a communication problem, and/or language difficulty.

PMSL at your huge leap of the conflating Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. Do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" and a built Tower of Babel, hmm?

You are a one trick pony, the only bible verse trick, you know how to do, is Genesis 11:5. Smh.

Are you aware that according to Babylonian literature, the city of Babel aka Babylon was built by lesser deities, unlike what the bible says, that it was built by sons of man, hmmm?

I am not the least bothered if you dont feel like fact-checking the meaning of the Hebrew word "amar" but I will once again draw your attention to Genesis 11:8-9, to see how only the city that was already in construction was mentioned but not this alleged structurally built tower. I should nudge you on Genesis 11:6 too, but hey, why bother, when I know, you have enough on plate already to grapple with

Where in the Bible, is this Tower of Babel stele mentioned, hmm? Or you are depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake news, abi? (i.e. Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump ni?

FOLYKAZE:
Genesis 11:5 out it out that the tower has already been built.

FOLYKAZE:
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Meaning they have united, in one tongue, and have done this. With that tower built in one term, there is nothing else they set their mind they would succeed upon. God has moved on from the temple and now on what they would do in future.

FOLYKAZE:
And errrrm, didn't the bible said Cyrus declarations freed Israelites and permitted them to build their temple? Well archaeology found the Cyrus cylinder and found out the bible claim was lie. Bible too dey lie... That is just a piece from the heaps of lie archaeology have unrooted

Csonice1:


Funny enough,
I have answered you and I will answer you once again.

God is to be given glory for everything. For he is the giver of life, he is the giver of strength, power and might: the Earth and beyond belongs to him.
He does everything a great God should do.
If you need your own glory, die first, give yourself life, and work with your own raw materials. While you are typing; how many organs can you live without?: I guess you love them all: He gave them all to you.

About city dwelling:
God knows that humans can do better than wander like animals, thry are humans not animals, moreover, their destiny is not to lurk in a zigurat or whatever.
They have already proven that. Because God's wisdom is in them, to develop the Earth. Even as little as a family is ,once a man is matured enough, he can take care of his own offsprings independent of his location, etc. He doesn't have to wander like an animal; because he is not one; he can make better use if God's wisdom and become great to God's glory, no matter where he is. There is no fun at all in an extended family where everybody is babysitting everyone. And your opinion is that if left on your own the best you can do is to equate yourself to animals. Shame.

They were not the first city dwellers, they will never be the last.
They were outlaws. So if your are talking about God's will for them:
He doesn't want them to be outlaw-city-dwellers.
Come to think of it, one huge earthquake is enough to kick them into extinction, volcano, hurricane, tornado or any serious natural disaster would have been enough to wipe them off. You will still blame God.

Scientifically, Don't you know that the whole descendants of man staying in the same place is too lethal. Even one human error can endager the species of man.

Besides, Most times, city dwelling and civilization amount to recklessness and immorality: so you have to be taught obedience and fear of God first, before you continue. So much is dependent on it.

MuttleyLaff:
Smh. I am not the only person who has observed that you're an one trick pony and this, you've just proven here again, that you, unrepentantly are one

I gave you "amar" from Genesis 11:4 to go fact check, you wouldn't. Now do you expect me to recommend that you should go fact check how "banah" of Genesis 11:5 and interestingly also in same Genesis 11:4 is defined, when I know, you aren't interested in being correctly informed but you just want to be opinionated and truculent

MuttleyLaff:
See how you with the highlighted and underlined above, how you have committed an own goal with Genesis 11:6. Need I go on? Need I say more, hmm?

MuttleyLaff:
I PMSL at your huge leap of the conflating Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. You scampering all over place, leaping from pillar to post, and jumping on to the Cyrus cylinder

Do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II's built "the Hanging Gardens" and a built Tower of Babel, hmm?

I repeat, where in the Bible, is this Tower of Babel stele mentioned, hmm? Or you are depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake news, abi? (i.e. Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump ni?

You see my dear friend, I have more than I show, and speak less than I know and is more the reason why, because I have a couple of few unused trump cards, that you don't find me playing the victim emotional, victim psychology and victim personal cards, as few, so far, have being doing on this thread

FOLYKAZE:
If you have any information about 'amar' or 'banah' please drop it here.

FOLYKAZE:
From the simple English in Genesis 11:5, and how I understand the words, God came down to see the city and the tower those people were building (progressing), or sons of man built.
Genesis 11:5
New International Version
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.

FOLYKAZE:
You retort banah and amar yet the verse above stated that God came down to see. What did God see when he came down? ...

FOLYKAZE:
... Mere plans?

FOLYKAZE:
You left one side of the sentence and glued to the irrelevant side which has, without the initial, lost it meaning.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do .

And now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

That implies there is nothing they set their mind on which they won't achieve

FOLYKAZE:
I only showed you the bible lie sometimes.

FOLYKAZE:
Etemenanki is the Tower of Babel. Prove me wrong sir

jamesid29:


Hmmm, the link was there to help you understand what heaven and earth means to an ancient person because you seem to think the space where heaven and earth meets has something to do with the astronomy. I believe I was clear with that here

jamesid29:
Ok so as mentioned before, that quote comes from only Diodorus Siculus. But let me get something straight, the very same place that quote comes from also mention Herodotus who actually lived during the time when the the ziggurat was still standing and considered as the father of modern history as opposed to Diodorus who lived 100s of years after Alexander destroyed the whole thing. You were the very same person that said we can't trust Herodotus words by quoting a very minute part of an entire wiki paragraph and I didn't even argue with you on that we have other ancient mesopotamia sources that says that also, now wants us to trust the words of another greek writer (Diodorus) who lived 100s of years later and we have no other ancient source(not a single one) that attest to what he said and multiple ancient literatures that say otherwise? How does that work?

jamesid29:
Funny thing is, the very same webpage this quote comes from equally says
The temple of Marduk in Babylon
The text, copied from an earlier document, describes the temple of the god Marduk in Babylon as reconstructed by the kings of the Babylonian dynasty of Nabopolassar (625-605 BC) and Nebuchadrezzar II (605-562 BC). This temple was called Esagila, "the temple that raises its head". The text first gives a double description of the base of the multi-tiered tower built inside the city walls or ziggurat, then describes the main temple, and, finally, gives the measurements of the multi-tiered tower, called Etemenanki, "House of the Foundation of Heaven and Earth" - the "Tower of Bable" in the Bible (Genesis 11, 1-9). This tower seems to have had seven stories, built in the form of terraces, and was surmounted by a temple.
https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/esagila-tablet
Bro what are we doing?....

jamesid29:
Now I see where you are coming from
Boss,do you seriously think ive not read this stuffs before . . Ok so going through this one again is another long conversation so here's a paper that dives into Deut 32 and also touches on El and the other stuffs you mentioned.
https://drmsh.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Heiser-Deuteronomy-32-8-and-the-sons-of-God.pdf
I really do hope you read this one

MuttleyLaff:
"You cannot help men permanently, by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves".
- Abraham Lincoln

Do the fact check on "amar" from Genesis 11:4 and "banah" from Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 yourself. You aren't an invalid, so dont expect me to help you do things you are capable, smart, clever, intelligent and literate enough to do on your own. Stop sitting on your hands, pull out your fingers and start lifting up the floorboards to see and find out what "amar" in Genesis 11:4 and "banah" in both Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 means and how both words are used in the original text, as opposed in English

Here is the thing, my dear defiant friend, if you are reading Bible in English translation and in isolation of comparing with the original text, you can bet that a good 80% of the real bible text word meanings are distorted, are mangled almost beyond recognition and even be wilful errors, for political motives, indoctrination motives, diverse theological motive, hidden agenda et cetera

The problem with reading the Bible, in only English translation(s), is that, you don't get to see how the certain words (e.g. "amar" in Genesis 11:4 and "banah" in both Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5) in the original text or Aramaic language have really been used. This explains why you are discombobulated

MuttleyLaff:
What God saw when He came down was a construction site work in progress city being built, but no mention of an actual physical tower erected structure, stele or not stele.

Affirmative, yes, see what they planned, what they purposed, what the imagined in their hearts to do. It was mere a plan, a thought, idea, imagination put on paper that didnt get physically started off. This is shows in the inconsistency of leaving out the mention of the tower in Genesis 11:8-9 [/size]

MuttleyLaff:


Smh, I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse and so the reason why you write comments such like this

MuttleyLaff:
I think you find relaxation and comfort in ignorance, in addition to depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) (i.e. the Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake discovery. Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump, I asked you earlier, hmm?

MuttleyLaff:
This has to be one of the most ignorant statement a person can make, which normally I won't have paid attention to, but just for the sake of righteousness, I will say from a bible perspective, meaning, the word of God, Etemenanki is not the daydreamed Tower of Babel

FOLYKAZE:
Really if you are a teacher, you will produce very bad students.

FOLYKAZE:
You are the one that came up with Amar and Banah, tell us about it, what you know about it. Or direct me with a link so that I may read what you meant. If you ain't ready to do any of this, I will take you as an unserious person and won't waste my time on you again on this thread.

FOLYKAZE:
The word used toward to the end of Genesis 11:5 is Built. This can never mean construction site, but something has already been there, though may not have been completed.

FOLYKAZE:
Verse 8-9 didn't mention tower.

FOLYKAZE:
Only talks about abandoning city building. If they had left the project at construction site, how come we have Babylon city that colonised Israel, and later attacked by Persia?

FOLYKAZE:
You are quoting out of context sir.

FOLYKAZE:
This is the full statement which you should interpret: "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do".

From other English translations
AMP
And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one [unified] people, and they all have the same language. This is only the beginning of what they will do [in rebellion against Me], and now no evil thing they imagine they can do will be impossible for them.

CSB
The Lord said, “If they have begun to do this as one people all having the same language, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

CEV
he said: These people are working together because they all speak the same language. This is just the beginning. Soon they will be able to do anything they want.

DRA
And he said: Behold, it is one people, and all have one tongue: and they have begun to do this, neither will they leave off from their designs, till they accomplish them in deed.

EHV
The Lord said, “If this is the first thing they are doing as one people, who all have one language, then nothing that they intend to do will be too difficult for them.

EXB
The Lord said, “Now, these people are ·united [L one], all speaking ·the same [L one] language. This is only the beginning of what they will do. ·They will be able to do anything they want [L Nothing they want to do will be impossible for them].

ISV
The Lord said, “Look! They are one people with the same language for all of them, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. Nothing that they have a mind to do will be impossible for them!
I am not seeing any Banah or Amah in that texts above.

FOLYKAZE:
The son of men had built the city and tower, this is the beginning of what they will do. If they had succeeded with one language and uniqueness, they will do more of this and another and another one and another one with so much success unless we thwart their progress now.

That is what I read and how I understand it. Please if you have contrary view, iron it out with courtesy...

Listen buddy, if I have to, I'll iron it out with courtesy, if you deservedly merit and/or earn it and not before. Who sef, do you think you are, making demands upandan the thread, hmm?

The text doesnt have "The son of men had built the city and tower ... ," in it, this is you embellishing the text

FOLYKAZE:
Oh you think the stele is fake? That is your problem not mine.

FOLYKAZE:
Ok

FOLYKAZE:
cc: jamesid29

Ok. You've helped me read more than I really planned. Thanks for taking your time to share frok your vast thoughts on the subject.

There are something I really want you to clarify.

1. What do you imply by SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE? I for one thought that mean act of worship, reverence, ritual and occultic practices. Please tell us what you meant by that phrase and how it relates with Etemenanki.

jamesid29
Turning to Tintir, we note that the compiler has given the title "Replica of Apsu" to E-sagil, but has reserved "Replica of E-sarra" for the ziqqurrat, E-temen-anki. .
.....
From a cosmological point of view E-sagil and E-temen-anki are both the abode of Marduk

jamesid29
The tower’s top stage is a temple, the Etemen-anki proper, known in Akkadian as b‹t ziqrati “the ziqqurrat temple.” This was the high sanctuary of Marduk, more prominent as a landmark than his sanctuary at ground-level, the massive E-sangil, but necessarily smaller.

2. Do you agree there is no shrine, idols, images and temple on Etemenanki?

3. Do you agree with Diodurus Siculus that Babylonian temple astronomers called tupšar Enûma Anu Enlil computed the Astronomical Diaries by using the temple as the rises where they see into the sky?

We can move unto the next phase of the thread after the answers to above have been addressed. Thanks

FOLYKAZE:



Let us make this short and precise. Who do you give the glory to for inventing airplane? Wright Brothers or God?

What do you mean by they are outlaws? Does city dwelling makes one outlaw?

Csonice1:


Funny enough,
I have answered you and I will answer you once again.

God is to be given glory for everything. For he is the giver of life, he is the giver of strength, power and might: the Earth and beyond belongs to him.
He does everything a great God should do.
If you need your own glory, die first, give yourself life, and work with your own raw materials. While you are typing; how many organs can you live without?: I guess you love them all: He gave them all to you.

About city dwelling:
God knows that humans can do better than wander like animals, thry are humans not animals, moreover, their destiny is not to lurk in a zigurat or whatever.
They have already proven that. Because God's wisdom is in them, to develop the Earth. Even as little as a family is ,once a man is matured enough, he can take care of his own offsprings independent of his location, etc. He doesn't have to wander like an animal; because he is not one; he can make better use if God's wisdom and become great to God's glory, no matter where he is. There is no fun at all in an extended family where everybody is babysitting everyone. And your opinion is that if left on your own the best you can do is to equate yourself to animals. Shame.

They were not the first city dwellers, they will never be the last.
They were outlaws. So if your are talking about God's will for them:
He doesn't want them to be outlaw-city-dwellers.
Come to think of it, one huge earthquake is enough to kick them into extinction, volcano, hurricane, tornado or any serious natural disaster would have been enough to wipe them off. You will still blame God.

Scientifically, Don't you know that the whole descendants of man staying in the same place is too lethal. Even one human error can endager the species of man.

Besides, Most times, city dwelling and civilization amount to recklessness and immorality: so you have to be taught obedience and fear of God first, before you continue. So much is dependent on it.

MuttleyLaff:
Smh, you dont miss a trick do you, hmm?

So the next card you want to play is now "Really if you are a teacher, you will produce very bad students" abi? Erhn? Smh, why don't you show proof anywhere or anytime on NL of me calling arrogating "teacher" status on myself, or better still show me where I've ever typed that I am teaching, hmm? You are just unbelievably a funnier character than I ever know you are. You are making a scene now, but wont remember that you first started when I reciprocate you with kind, or even stronger. Please learn to stick to the subject matter discussed instead of drawing in your emotions and throwing in overt shades at me. It betrays your feeling of being frustrated because of your lack of depth, from being ill-informed and biblically undereducated

MuttleyLaff:
See if I care. I think I've previously called you a precious time stealer, precious time killer and a precious time waster anyway. You'll be good riddance to bad rubbish for doing not "waste my time on you again on this thread." It will be my prayers answered, if you slither away to go wallow in ignorance

Now slowly read my lips. No, can do. If you are capable of trawling the internet for info on the daydreamed Tower of Babel, it is a piece of cake for you to equally be capable of finding out how the two "amar" and "banah" Aramaic/Hebrew words used in Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 are defined, and see the idea or meaning of what the words conveyed

MuttleyLaff:
The word used in the original text is "banah" which is an Aramaic/Hebrew word, that lost its meaning when being translated to English word "Built"

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, now, no prizes, for saying the obvious and/or stating the reason why the tower was not mentioned in Genesis 11:8-9

MuttleyLaff:
This more the reason why I was PMSL at your huge leap of conflating the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a daydreamed Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. I even earlier asked you that do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" and this supposedly built Tower of Babel stele. Do you remember me asking, hmm?

MuttleyLaff:
The rule of consistency in writing was not followed on to Genesis 11:8-9 and that is why earlier associated element like the tower was not mentioned in Genesis 11:8-9, for the sole reason that it never in the first place got started. The only thing structurally on ground, that got started was building the city, and so it only got a mention. The building ceased, it was stopped, it was neglected, it was left alone, they quit et cetera

MuttleyLaff:
"The king spake, and said,
Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
(i.e. And the king answered, and said:
Is not this the great Babylon, which I have built to be the seat of the kingdom, by the strength of my power, and in the glory of my excellence?)"
- Daniel 4:30

"As he looked out across the city, he said, ‘Look at this great city of Babylon! (i.e. no mention of tower)
By my own mighty power, I have built this beautiful city as my royal residence to display my majestic splendor"
- Daniel 4:30

It might interest you to know, it was Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar II' father, who later returned to enlarge and strengthen the city, to make it the capital of the Babylonian Empire under Semitic rule. Now when his son, Nebuchadnezzar II, was boasting, as you can see in Daniel 4:30 above, there still is no mention of a tower. You would have thought that something significant, audacious, bold, impressive in appearance, an eye-catching, spectacular, and imposing structure tower would merit a bonafide mention somewhere again in the Bible, but alas, no it doesnt, not even especially, when a window of opportunity, like in Daniel 4:30 presented itself, for Nebuchadnezzar II to show off the tower, but it didnt happen, solely because no tower worth mentioning ever was built

MuttleyLaff:
No I am not. It is you doing contextomy, trying to distort the original word's intended meaning

MuttleyLaff:
size=12pt]Of course you wont see "amar" or "banah" because they are found in Genesis 11:4-5 and not in the above various listed English translations of Genesis 11: 6

What you'll find in Genesis 11:6 is the Aramaic/Hebrew word "zamam"

I am in a generous mood at the moment, so I will help out with sharing what the above Genesis 11:6, Aramaic/Hebrew word "zamam" in the original text means. You can send me a thank you letter, later, in the post for it. Anyway, it conveys, a sense of, to consider/considers/consideration, intention/intended, plots/plotted, purpose/purposed, schemed and/or plan of action/planned to build the tower.[/size]

Listen buddy, if I have to, I'll iron it out with courtesy, if you deservedly merit and/or earn it and not before. Who sef, do you think you are, making demands upandan the thread, hmm?

The text doesnt have "The son of men had built the city and tower ... ," in it, this is you embellishing the text

Csonice1:


--1--
God.
Because, He gave them life, wisdom and raw materials.

Csonice1:
--2--
(Outlaw? : a dictionary might help)
they were doing it as a way to boast of what they can do: make a name for themselves: [ build a single city as against many good cities now in the World] ; they were trying to lie to themselves through the project; just like the Titanic; just like nebucadnezzer in Daniel4. Their assumption was that nothing and no one can stop them. That's pure defiance. God stopped them. ( My answer stops here: but you can pls make reference to the ones below; to ensure that no part of your question was ignored)


#it wasn't just City dwelling that made them outlaws: you[anyone] can be evil even without having a home of your [his] own; The state of your heart is what determines who you are . If the ambition to dwell in a city has severed your heart from God's word, then it's wrong. that was the case with them.

#What City can be compared to Heaven?. honestly, None.
(By the way, even in cities, those who defy authority are punished; it is a proof of good governance. isn't it?: So, my point here is that you can't bribe Him, not even with the prospect of City dwelling; even with it's assumed benefits: that's too small for Him. However, He corrected them(the people) with mercy and Love.)

#Dwelling in cities makes no difference, but [to] ensure on keeping God's Word and Glorifying Him always.

jamesid29:



I believe @ bolded are all self explanatory. And I also took all of this quotes from sources you posted.

jamesid29:
Refer above and below.

jamesid29:
You are contradicting your own points here sir. You just called it a temple(https://www.dictionary.com/browse/temple) but still want to maintain that it's not....Anyways you're thinking of the wrong temple though

jamesid29:
Secondly the tupšar Enûma Anu Enlil are late Babylonian temple scribes (6th century BC their job was to predict omens for the king and state), the ziggurat precedes them by about a 1000yrs. They also flourished well into the ADs(75 AD and possible into the 3rd century AD), but the ziggurat fell into ruins around the 530BC.(basically another 500 - 800 yrs after)
From what I can piece together sir, you do know the buzzwords but have never really settled down to really study the materials.

jamesid29:
Finally using Diodurus Siculus as your only source point isn't really a good idea. He lived atleast 500yrs after the ziggurat fell into ruins. We know almost nothing about him and his work Bibliotheca historica was a compilation of works from other greek historians ,not from any Babylon source either ancient or contemporary. Even modern historians review of his work only should disuaded you. But if you must know, here's the full paragraph of what he really said on the matter

"In the middle of the City, she built a Temple [/b]to Jupiter, whom the Babylonians call Belus (as we have before said) [b]of which since Writers differ amongst themselves, and the Work is now wholly decay'd through length of Time, there's nothing that can certainly be related concerning it: Yet it's apparent it was of an exceeding great height, and that by the advantage of it, the Chaldean Astrologers exactly observ'd the setting and rising of the Stars. The whole was built of Brick, cemented with Brimstone, with great Art and Cost. Upon the top she plac'd Three Statues of beaten Gold of Jupiter, Juno and Rhea.That of Jupiter stood upright in the posture as if he were walking; he was Forty Foot in height, and weighed a Thousand Babylonish Talents. The Statue of Rhea was of the same weight sitting on a Golden Throne, having Two Lions standing on either side, one at her Knees, and near to them Two exceeding great Serpents of Silver, weighing Thirty Talents apiece. Here likewise the Image of Juno stood upright, and weighed Eight Hundred Talents, grasping a Serpent by the Head in her right Hand, and holding a Scepter adorn'd with precious Stones in her left. For all these Deities there was plac'd a Common Table made of beaten Gold, Forty Foot long, and Fifteen broad, weighing Five Hundred Talents: Upon which stood Two Cups weighing Thirty Talents, and near to them as many Censers weighing Three Hundred Talents: There were there likewise plac'd Three Drinking Bowls of Gold, one of which dedicated to Jupiter, weigh'd Twelve Hundred Babylonish Talents, but the other Two Six Hundred apiece; but all those the Persian"

https://www.sarata.com/history/diodorus-siculus/library/page.58.html
Jupiter is marduk(Bel), so boss even your only source talks about it as a temple to Jupiter with his statue and other worship relics.

jamesid29:
4. Do you agree that Esagila tablet reveal the complex mathematics and engineering behind Etemenanki which aided architectural revolution of today?
E-sagil Tablet is not the architectural design of the real ziggurat. It was either the design of on idealised abstract ziggurat temple or was mathematical exercise model for would-be(students) surveyor. Secondly the tablet was only discovered in the late 19th century and disappeared into private hands until fairly recently, so.....

jamesid29:
Well, no offense sir but I'll pass on that. The conversation has been like trying to convince a flat-earther that the world is round. But I truly do understand though. We all have ideas and precept that we hold onto dearly regardless of whether we know it's true or not. Its always an herculean task to make a shift in thought for any ideology we really need to be true(that's just part of being human).
Its a shame we never really got to the fun stuff though( what the biblical story was passing across), but it's fine. Some other people might do a better job at that sef so I'll leave you guys to it.
I do hope you get to read the paper on Deut 32 I gave you, It should be right up your wheelhouse. And you should also check the author out Dr Heiser (https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/newstarthere/ , https://drmsh.com/). I really think you would like his work.

Happy Sunday and Enjoy your week.

alphaNomega:
FOLYKAZE, nice thread.

The holy bible is a comic book written by men who did not know what causes rain to fall and the sun to rise and set
It is a pity we have humans in 2020 who still carry the matter on their head like a do or die affair.

alphaNomega:
Maximus69, I will not argue with you over any thing from the holy bible because it is akin to arguing over comic book characters and stories, like trying to prove superman is real, or the location of Gotham city, or if kryptonite and Spider-Man are real.

EVERYTIME I see you lots arguing over Bible stories, that is what comes to mind.

Maximus69:


You don't need to argue after all you've presented your own conclusion on the book, i too just present my own conclusion after my findings.
So you're welcome Sir!

alphaNomega:
Enjoy yourself

FOLYKAZE:


Na God design plane? Hahahaha

FOLYKAZE:

Outlaws are those going contrary to laws.

FOLYKAZE:


This doesn't answer my question sir. Check the question again

What do you imply by SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE? I for one thought that mean act of worship, reverence, ritual and occultic practices. Please tell us what you meant by that phrase and how it relates with Etemenanki.

jamesid29
Turning to Tintir, we note that the compiler has given the title "Replica of Apsu" to E-sagil, but has reserved "Replica of E-sarra" for the ziqqurrat, E-temen-anki. .
.....
From a cosmological point of view E-sagil and E-temen-anki are both the abode of Marduk

Well there is no evidence of altar, shrine, idols, images of Marduk or centre of worship on the top of Etemenanki. Do you have contrary evidence?

jamesid29
[b]The tower’s top stage is a temple, the [color=#99000]Etemen-anki proper, known in Akkadian as b‹t ziqrati “the ziqqurrat temple.” This was the high sanctuary of Marduk, more prominent as a landmark than his sanctuary at ground-level[/color], the massive E-sangil, but necessarily smaller. There is some evidence that the ziqqurrat-temple was a two-storey building, though both storeys may well have been the same length and breadth.

Haaa

Were you not the one that said Shrine isn't same as Temple? That temples does not necessarily contain shrine.

FOLYKAZE:
I said if you are a teacher, didn't say you are a teacher. Make you calm down.

FOLYKAZE:
Unfortunately Google does not bring any tangible result to my amar and banah search query. Maybe you should have provide direct links for references. Or better still provide me with detailed Aramaic/Hebrew translation of the verse with corresponding English translation which convey the meaning of amar and banah you are forcing down on us.

FOLYKAZE:
Banah is the only Aramaic/Hebrew word there? Give us the full Aramaic/Hebrew texts in that verse.

FOLYKAZE:
Most notably, the tower was completed already and the city is already taking shape but not fully completed in Gen 11:8-9. This is the reason why the tower was not mentioned.

FOLYKAZE:
The Bible also mentioned some artifacts like the golden image which evidence have not been found yet. Babylon is a large city, and archaeology research has not covered all the areas of the city yet. It is gradual.

FOLYKAZE:
The Hanging Garden is known from ancient writings, there is no archaeological evidence yet. We can talk about the garden when and only there are tons of evidence. As it is now, let's focus of the city and tower. And also address the question, if Babylonia was left at construction site, undeveloped, and project developers were scattered, how come we later have the city that colonised Israel and got attacked by Persia?

FOLYKAZE:
Hahahaha
You are admitting there is something structurally on ground.

FOLYKAZE:
I thought it didn't leave undeveloped site level.

FOLYKAZE:
God already saw the tower standing film in Genesis 11:6, it is the city that was not fully developed.

FOLYKAZE:
Show the history above using bible. Show us where the Bible stated that Hammurabi built Babylon. I thought you were the one telling us it was Nimrod? How come you shift ground to Hammurabi when the mentioned Nebuchadnezzar II as the person who built the golden image. I based my word on archaeology findings, show yours with bible. I challenge you.

FOLYKAZE:
I wasn't the one who translated the bible into English. I guess you know more than the translators.

FOLYKAZE:
Hahahaha

Zamam is the only Hebrew word in Gen 11:6, isn't it?

FOLYKAZE:
Let us have the full Aramaic hebrew text and not picky words you brandish around.

MuttleyLaff:


#1) https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2161.htm
#2) https://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/11-6.htm
#3) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/11-6.htm

MuttleyLaff:

Just so you know, Nimrod is an archetype, just as Babylon, is an archetype and that wasn't an ordinary tower proposed and planned in their minds to build

alphaNomega:
FOLY, nice thread.

The holy bible is a comic book written by men who did not know what causes rain to fall and the sun to rise and set

It is a pity we have humans in 2020 who still carry the matter on their head like a do or die affair.

FOLYKAZE:
Oh finally, he drops the links.

FOLYKAZE:
But I could see just many Hebrew/Aramaic words in Gen 11:4,5 and 6, though our wised muttley taunted just three words; amar, banah, and zamar, from among the verses.

FOLYKAZE:
[s]Just in Genesis 11:5, the transliteration goes thus:
Yah·weh vai·ye·red. lir·'ot ha·'ir ham·mig·dal a·sher be·nei ha·'a·dam. ba·nu
https://biblestudycompany.com/reader/verse?version=king_james&book=1&chapter=11&verse=5&_token=y7o1ITxW1TPnbX4o9jJqKVUz42Tla36II5Q5uMvW&diff=off&diff=on

KJV Translation reads: And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Yahweh left his place in heaven, vai·ye·red (came down, descended, alighted cross referenced Genesis 15:11, 8:20) lit.'ot (to see, supervise, have experience, stare, gaze, observe, oju korokoro. Cross reference Genesis 1:4, 1:18), ha.'ir (a city, town, court, encampment, post, settlement. Cross reference Genesis 4:17, 10:12 ), ham·mig·dal (tower, rostrum, podium, watchtower, castle Judges 9:46, 8:9), which the children of men ba.nu (construct, fortified, fashioned, made, surely built, develop, create <<procreate>>> produced. Cross reference Genesis 2:22, 4:17, 8:20[/s])

FOLYKAZE:
To our darling friend, Yahweh came down, descended from his heaven to earth because of non materialized plans of some folks. Yahweh came down and saw the blueprint only, his eye were blinded to the city and tower mankind had builded. Mr muttley, if you are using drugs, please reduce the intake.

FOLYKAZE:
When one see Muttley, you would think built or builded in Genesis 2:22, 4:17, 8:20 is mere blueprint, survey paper or manuscripts.

MuttleyLaff:
va\xx, I will try and give a short version of the explanation after hearing your reply to this question:

Are you familiar with scripture or verses in the bible?
If you are, then I'll drop, say, two verses, that will give a penny drops moment and clear the matter up

va\xx, you see, the challenge we have, is that majority dont seem to appreciate that the Old New Testament is written in Hebrew Greek and the Hebrew Greek language has its fair share of different sort of tenses.
People read the bible, ignoring the tenses, at their peril

Now that you've relearned, there is nothing stopping you from starting to use Yahushua instead of Jesus, which "morphed" from Iesous

nwa\bekeyi, repeating, it dont matter, so long as the variants of the name Yahashua used, doesnt have unpleasant and/or offensive connotations of mockery

MuttleyLaff:
Whoa, whoa whoa, come back here
Going off tangent just like that and garbling away

You started with high-falutin, now you're acting being self conceited
The one whose bidding I am doing, will repeat Luke 13:27 and Matthew 7:23 to you
If you refuse to turn a new leaf, be warned, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Clearly, I am no match for your level of ignorance concerning New Testament Greek Aorist tenses

Everyone has the right to be ignorant
It's just that in your case, you've chosen to abuse the privilege

Look in the original Greek text to find the Aorist tense and understand it. SMH
That a blind man doesn’t see the sun don’t mean the sun is not up in the sky

So ''has now been preached'' is the same as ''which is preached''
All earlier bible translations (e.g. Wycliffe bible and Tyndale bible) before King James version and its other translation contemporaries wrote ''which is preached''
You want keep your guilt and ignorance under wrap, this is why you continue turning a deaf ear and blind eye

I have never until on this thread seen a crass display of openly and unashamedly Olympic standard ignorance done like you've been doing

I am not going to waste time and breathe on a real hard-case incorrigible comment

I see this fits Mr\President1 perfectly, like a hand in a glove and not FOLYKAZE

Gone off tangent again.

Mr\President1:
OK Muttleylaff, I have been reading up on Aorist tenses . So, in the context that Paul used it, there was no time or duration attached . You are right. Paul even admonished Timothy to continue the preaching when he said of himself that ''I have finished the race''

Yes, the Aorist . The time is now, as deduced from the examination of other related Scriptures to find the timeline. The time is now.

Thanks for the knowledge on Aorist tenses

OK, you are not an olodo because you thought me Aorist tense , the Aorist tense also explains the nature of our God who commands things that are not as though they are.

Upon authentication, when you see the things that may withhold his coming being demolished, then the point is proved that every creature under heaven has heard the gospel ; and the Aorist acquires a closure.

FOLYKAZE:
Abeg I won't talk about this again with you. You are embarrassment already. Thanks.

FOLYKAZE:
Nimrod is an archetype, just as Babylon is an archetype. Hahahahaha