shadeyinka:

The bold is NOT true!
A true statement of the same phrase would be

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

You said so, not God.

Why? In prophecy, accounts of events not yet performed are stated.
The correction to your statement ensures that God will not punish a yet to be done action!

I will address your prophecy question in that your reply wherr you specifically asked about prophecy.

Let's clarify:
Things don't exist UNTIL they are called into existence: By who?

God, You, Devil, Angels and co. Any being with a will and an active force. Howbeit, even if Herod tried to orchestrate Baby Jesus' death, God didn't permit it. So God sometimes will not allow what you declare to come to pass.

Is the calling to existence by God or by the person in question?

The person in question. God didn't stop him, He is not a policeman na, more of A Judge.

Your conclusion is wrong because it puts God under the limitation of His creation (time). According to human limitation, the account of rape didn't exist before it was performed because the rape didn't exist.

You still don't see that until "a future doesn't exist" unlimits God in every way. You are still confined by the "future exist" mentality.

From God point of view, He is omnipresent in time and space, therefore God knows about every detail of the rape even before it was performed.

Yet you claimed God does not have a future .... As at the point of God blessing Abram, the account of God's Adventure with Moses was still in some so-called "future". Why then did you claim God does not have a future?
If I pull this string so far, you will see how much an existing future limits God.

What then is prophecy if God does not know the account of the future?

In God's realm, 1. Prophecy is forthelling 2. Prophecy is Knowing what anyone has forthtold 3.

Gen 18:17-19:
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Check the bolded and the highlight!

You see? He didn't say "Foreknow", My God said " Know".... Press rewind and Go to Genesis 17:5-8
"Neither shall your name be Abram but Abraham; for a father of many nations Have I made thee
6. And I will makethee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
My God did not foreknow Abraham will be a blessing and a Father of many nation, My God Declared/orchestrated and made Abraham A father of Many Nation. That is the word of God and it is true all the time.
Also, (@your highlight) that was God's confidence in Abraham. The same way I have 100% confidence that my wife cannot cheat with another man. This is a similar confidence God had in Job when He struck a daring bet with the Devil.
We both know the Devil knows God far more than any of us here, the clever serpent will never enter into A bet if God has already foreknew the outcome (Now learn something new from God's discussion with the Devil). The Devil knew that the outcome(that Job will leave God or not) was undefined and it doesn't exist yet and that was his confidence to believe he had a shot at winning... Ah ah, do you see? Even the devil knows that a future account that God himself has not declared or permitted to happen does not exist.

Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.
1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."
My Brother, is this not an account of what is yet to exist?[/b]

You still don't understand. Prophecy is not only "foretelling", it is also " forthtelling".
A prophet can Declare an account to happen in the future by the unction of the Holy spirit with a throne in heaven that backs him up. Such account will happen with no piece missing.
1. The Prophet by the Holy spirit declared such account to happen as a sign to Saul... OR God himself declares such an account to happen.
Either ways, it is inevitable that such must be "Declared" and will require God's permission for it to occur.
Now, do you now see the reason *Prophecies are not wished but fought into manifestation*?

I understand your point but your conclusion is wrong.

That we don't want to believe something does not mean it is not true. This is your opinion and it's not the Word of God, so I'm unbothered.

God already knows what Lucifer would do even before he was created.

Then it's God fault for bringing him to life. Also, if we go with this mentality then there is that kind of develish darkness in God or else, where did Lucifer see his own?
God forbid! The scripture says .... "his works are PERFECT"....

However, Lucifer by his own will and volition chose and implemented his rebellion against God.
Lucifer was not guilty until he acted out his iniquity and rebellion.

According to you, he will act it out, it's just a matter of time.

He could have lived in obedience to God and that exactly would have been the account of God that Lucifer would live a righteous and selfless life for Jehovah.

Stop shadowboxing, he couldn't... According to you, his account in future times does not capture him "living in obedience", so no need to eat your cake and still ask for it.

...

Blabbermouth:

You said so, not God.

So what exactly did God say?

Blabbermouth:

I will address your prophecy question in that your reply wherr you specifically asked about prophecy.

God, You, Devil, Angels and co. Any being with a will and an active force. Howbeit, even if Herod tried to orchestrate Baby Jesus' death, God didn't permit it. So God sometimes will not allow what you declare to come to pass.

The person in question. God didn't stop him, He is not a policeman na, more of A Judge.

You still don't see that until "a future doesn't exist" unlimits God in every way. You are still confined by the "future exist" mentality.

You are mixing up two different things. I didn't say the Future Exist. What I've affirmed is that the RECORD of the future exists. e.g. the Book of Revelation
1. Record of the Future is NOT
2. Existence of the Future.

Record of the Future:
God knows that the man will commit a rape action even before he was born.
Existence of the Future:
Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

Why, because God is omnipresent in both TIME and SPACE!

Blabbermouth:

Yet you claimed God does not have a future .... As at the point of God blessing Abram, the account of God's Adventure with Moses was still in some so-called "future". Why then did you claim God does not have a future?
If I pull this string so far, you will see how much an existing future limits God.

God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future.
God is the beginning and the End.

If God has a future, then there must exist a CHANGE to God. Will God change in the future?
Mal 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

Blabbermouth:

In God's realm,
1. Prophecy is forthelling
2. Prophecy is Knowing what anyone has forthtold 3.

Prophecy isn't God knowing what a person has forthtold!

Forthtelling is a creative force that compel things to be or exist.
eg.

Gen 1:3:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Note:
the power of God enforced the appearance of Light.

Foretelling is relaying what is yet to exist without enforcement.
eg.

Matt 2:13:
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."

Note:
God did not compel Herod to seek for the death of the child.

Blabbermouth:

You see? He didn't say "Foreknow", My God said " Know".... Press rewind and Go to Genesis 17:5-8
"Neither shall your name be Abram but Abraham; for a father of many nations Have I made thee
6. And I will makethee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
My God did not foreknow Abraham will be a blessing and a Father of many nation, My God Declared/orchestrated and made Abraham A father of Many Nation. That is the word of God and it is true all the time.
Also, (@your highlight) that was God's confidence in Abraham. The same way I have 100% confidence that my wife cannot cheat with another man. This is a similar confidence God had in Job when He struck a daring bet with the Devil.
We both know the Devil knows God far more than any of us here, the Wise Devil will never enter into A bet if God has already foreknow the outcome (Now learn something new from God's discussion with the Devil). The Devil knew that the outcome(that Job will leave God or not) was undefined and it doesn't exist yet and that was his confidence to believe he had a shot at winning... Ah ah, do you see? Even the devil knows that a future account that God himself has not declared or permitted to happen does not exist.

Let me accept that "I know.." could be a mere statement of confidence in Abraham and not a Foreknowledge of Abraham (even though Abraham is YET to have a single child at this point).

Unfortunately, you refused to comment on

Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.
1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."
[/b]
According to you, the Prophet enforced two men to just wander about till they reached Rachel's Sepulchre..
Then three men were compelled to go from Tabor to Bethel... and to each carrying goats, bread and wine...
Then the Prophet enforced a company of prophets to somehow begin to sings and prophesy...


Let me give you another example since it seems you want to completely remove FORETELLING put of prophecy.


2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

Note what Elisha said: The Lord hath shown me...

But as far as you are concerned, God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

For if it is a FORTHTELLING, then God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

shadeyinka:

So what exactly did God say?

God said "Know". God said " Declare"... And those are the pillars of my view.

You are mixing up two different things. I didn't say the Future Exist. What I've affirmed is that the RECORD of the future exists. e.g. the Book of Revelation
1. Record of the Future is NOT
2. Existence of the Future.[.quote]
Like we've ironed out already, we are both talking about the "content". So even if I say " future " I mean "content of the future".
[quote]
Record of the Future:
God knows that the man will commit a rape action even before he was born.
Existence of the Future:
Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

Yes, I'm saying there is no "record of future", except What God has forth told or permitted.

Why, because God is omnipresent in both TIME and SPACE!

A sentence you still misunderstand.

God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future.
God is the beginning and the End.

It's not my cross. I'm asking you that at that point of " God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah", that the record of "God talking to moses in a burning Bush" is still at that point a record of the future.
So, clarify yourself, since you said *God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future*... The same cases I tendered above is consistent with anyone that His record of his future exist.
Or, let me put it this way;
Just like Abraham, Does God have a record of his future?
*I.e Things he hasn't done yet but He will do in time* just like every other creature.

If God has a future, then there must exist a CHANGE to God. Will God change in the future?
Mal 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

I hear.

Prophecy isn't God knowing what a person has forthtold!

Forthtelling is a creative force that compel things to be or exist.
eg.

Gen 1:3:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Note:
the power of God enforced the appearance of Light.

Oops! I meant to use the word "Declared" not "forthtold"... So you can reassess it again.

Foretelling is relaying what is yet to exist without enforcement.
eg.

Okay? What do you mean by " without enforcement "?

Matt 2:13:
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."

Note:
God did not compel Herod to seek for the death of the child.

Seen.

Let me accept that "I know.." could be a mere statement of confidence in Abraham and not a Foreknowledge of Abraham (even though Abraham is YET to have a single child at this point).

Like I said, God speaks to things that are yet not as though they are.

Unfortunately, you refused to comment on
Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.
1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."
[/b]
According to you, the Prophet enforced two men to just wander about till they reached Rachel's Sepulchre..
Then three men were compelled to go from Tabor to Bethel... and to each carrying goats, bread and wine...
Then the Prophet enforced a company of prophets to somehow begin to sings and prophesy...

I commented. Check it again.

Blabbermouth:

God said "Know". God said " Declare"... And those are the pillars of my view.

My statement was:

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

And you replied:

You said so, not God.

I then asked,

So what exactly did God say?

Your response is tangent to the question of "what exactly did God say?"

Nevertheless:
If God said "know": it is a knowledge of past present and future. This encompasses FOREKNOWLEDGE, PAST KNOWLEDGE and POST KNOWLEDGE!

Blabbermouth:

Yes, I'm saying there is no "record of future", except What God has forth told or permitted.

Let me take you up on this your statement.

You are in other words saying
"Only the Record of future that exists are
1. What God has forthtold (declared)
2. What God has permitted (allowed) to happen.

Is this a confirmation of your beliefs?

Blabbermouth:

It's not my cross. I'm asking you that at that point of " God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah", that the record of "God talking to moses in a burning Bush" is still at that point a record of the future.
So, clarify yourself, since you said *God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future*... The same cases I tendered above is consistent with anyone that His record of his future exist.
Or, let me put it this way;
Just like Abraham, Does God have a record of his future?
*I.e Things he hasn't done yet but He will do in time* just like every other creature.

If God is the beginning and the end, can you please say what comes after the end?

Only creatures can have a future. It is gross nonsense to ask about the future of God JUST as it is equally nonsensical to know if God knows His beginning.

Blabbermouth:

Oops! I meant to use the word "Declared" not "forthtold"... So you can reassess it again.

Forthtold and Declared means exactly the same thing with respect to God.

eg. "Let there be Light....!" is both a Declaration and a Forthtelling.

Blabbermouth:

Okay? What do you mean by " without enforcement "?

I said:
Foretelling is relaying what is yet to exist without enforcement.

Enforcement mean God causing it it pass by His power.

Foretelling is saying what is yet to exist without God directly causing it to be.

eg. With my limited human ability, I can foretell that rain will fall heavily in Lagos tomorrow without me having to seed the cloud so that rain can fall.

Also, with my limited human ability, I can forthtell that rain will fall heavily in Lagos tomorrow by seeding the cloud so that rain can fall.

Note: seeding is a scientific process used to cause condensation of rain clouds

shadeyinka:

Let me give you another example since it seems you want to completely remove FORETELLING put of prophecy.
2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

Note what Elisha said: The Lord hath shown me...

But as far as you are concerned, God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Again, press backward and Go to 1Kings19:15-18 (please check it out!). God made Hazael king of Syria himself (God didn't foresee!). God used Hazael to punish Israel(God didn't foresee!). Now again you see, the "record of future doesn't exist aside what God has declared" is 100% consistent with God's word.

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

For if it is a FORTHTELLING, then God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Did it not ring a bell that no literal name was written in revelations?
God was talking about those who would not accept Christ and pledge allegiance to the false Messiah.
Now you see, God didn't make anybody evil.
Again, 100% consistent with the word of God.

@Blabbermouth:
You left out these with no comment in my last post

Let me give you another example since it seems you want to completely remove FORETELLING put of prophecy.


2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

Note what Elisha said: The Lord hath shown me...

But as far as you are concerned, God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

For if it is a FORTHTELLING, then God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Blabbermouth:

Again, press backward and Go to 1Kings19:15-18 (please check it out!). God made Hazael king of Syria himself (God didn't foresee!). God used Hazael to punish Israel(God didn't foresee!). Now again you see, the "record of future doesn't exist aside what God has declared" is 100% consistent with God's word.

As if you are trying hard to avoid facing the truth

2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."


PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS
1.The Prophet said: Because I know the evil you will do to the children of Israel.
How did the Prophet know the specifics of what Hazael will do?
2. Do you think God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women(as part of His forth telling)
3. Why did Elisha say: "The Lord hath shown me...". Is this forthtelling?
4. Please can you explain why God is destroying the House of Hazael his obedient servant?
Amos 1:4: "but I will send a fire into the house of Haz´a-el, which shall devour the palaces of Ben — ha´dad."

Blabbermouth:

Did it not ring a bell that no literal name was written in revelations?
God was talking about those who would not accept Christ and pledge allegiance to the false Messiah.
Now you see, God didn't make anybody evil.
Again, 100% consistent with the word of God.

I didn't mention anything about names. I related what God said will happen in the book of Revelation 9:20-21

I said:

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION
1. If Rev 9:20-21 it is a FORTHTELLING, would you then agree that God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

2. Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?


I will appreciate if you answer each question as itemized rather than saying things not concerning the question asked.

shadeyinka:

As if you are trying hard to avoid facing the truth

2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

I did told you to go check 1King19:15-18 but you didn't and you continued to bask in the same illusion.
1Kings19:15-18:
15. And the Lord said unto him, Go return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when you get there,anoint Hazael to be king over Syria
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold Hazael's kingship.
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshishall you anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt you anoint to be prophet in your room
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold/Declared Jehu as King and Elisha as prophet in Elijah's room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
Commentary: God himself used Jehu and Hazael to punish Israel for their iniquities
Now relating 1kings19:15-18 to 2kings8:12-13, we are perfectly in line with the word of God when we say:
1. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be King of Syria and Elijah (being a prophet) was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold.
This is the exact part where you err. You think Foreknowing is a prophet seeing what will happen in the future, no! It's seeing what the LORD God has forthtold to happen in the future.
2. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be the Instrument God will use to punish Israel for their iniquities and Elijah was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold, even the specifics (of the punishment). This is where you err again, Elijah did not by some divine means look into what will happen in the future (this is not foretelling)... Elijah was able to see what God has forthtold/declare to happen in the future(this is what foretelling actually is).
3. 2kings8:12 were specifics of How God intends to punish Israel.

PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS
1.The Prophet said: Because I know the evil you will do to the children of Israel.
How did the Prophet know the specifics of what Hazael will do?

Answer: The prophet knew what God has Forthtold to happen in the future, which is - God will punish Israel through Hazael: that is what foretelling is in prophecy.

2. Do you think God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women(as part of His forth telling)

God can engineer you to kill a king. He can use you to punish anybody. That was God using Hazael to punish Israel.

3. Why did Elisha say: "The Lord hath shown me...". Is this forthtelling?

We've ironed this before na. I'm not saying there is no foretelling, I'm saying there is no foretelling when it comes to God.
When a prophet foretells, there are two principal cases
1. When the prophet sees what God has declared to happen in the future
2. When the prophet sees a " IF/IF NOT" dependent forthtelling of God. For example, God will tell him "This this this will happen if he Goes" and "this this this will happen if he does not Go". One of the scenes can be selected and it's dependent on the prophecy-receiver choice (take Nineveh as a case study)....
Anyways, It must require God's direct declaration or God's permission for another person's declaration...
When I say " another person's declaration " I mean - for example: I will go to work tomorrow is your declaration. God can look and say "Mumu, I will collect your life this night"... In this case, the person's declaration will not come to pass. Or God can say, "My Boy, I permit your going to work".... In this case, the person's declaration will come to pass.

4. Please can you explain why God is destroying the House of Hazael his obedient servant?
Amos 1:4: "but I will send a fire into the house of Haz´a-el, which shall devour the palaces of Ben — ha´dad."

Read Amos1

I didn't mention anything about names. I related what God said will happen in the book of Revelation 9:20-21

I said:

Said what?

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION
1. If Rev 9:20-21 it is a FORTHTELLING, would you then agree that God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

You have misplaced something again. No specifics here, they are all collective!
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that chose Christ till the end.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that denied Christ in the last days.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall the Devil, fallen angels and the likes.
God didn't make anyone evil! Please explain how my view supports that Rev9:20-21 shows that God made some people evil.

2. Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

You still get things mixed up subconsciously thinking forthtelling means DECLARING EVERYTHING.

I will appreciate if you answer each question as itemized rather than saying things not concerning the question asked.

I answered with consistency to the word of God.

DrLiveLogic:

1/ According to you, creation will produce realities alien to God's original state and therefore the end will not be as the beginning since Satan and evil are alien to god's original state of existence?

God's darkness is light still. When John Said "God is light, in him is no darkness". Here he was talking about the kind of darkness associated with the devil. In all sense, the darkness of the devil is a phenomenon.

You've changed your stance again.
2/ Now, God knows evil you say. Before you said he knows nothing outside his nature which excludes darkness, death, evil which are simply the absence of his light essence?

You do not know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha" that's why you confused yourself and thought I changed my stance. God knowing Ra'ah is not Exceeding his nature, Ra'ah is not Rasha! Go and see Psalms 136:9-22.

3/ So God grows in knowledge and gets to know things he didn't originally know. Your god is a learner?

You had better take that nonsense last sentence back. God's ground state knowledge is Infinity. If you add 100,000 to infinity, what do you get? Infinity! Divinity(i.e Divine Infinity) does not increase with human knowledge. God Himself said to Abram - For I now Know . If you ain't happy, take it up with God for saying so. Answer this when you are replying me, Before God foreknows and after he foreknows, has he increased in knowledge?

4/ If your stance is that God updates his knowledge with our actions, then God is not a constant and the end of God is different from his beginning. This is breaking the laws of the universe. Do you agree to this?

Which law? Who wrote the law? That's the problem, you are trying to stitch science with Truth. God is a constant Infinity not a constant finity. If he was finite in his ground state, then he increased in knowledge. If he was and still is infinite, there was no increase. You got warped from Trinity where you thought God the Father can be limited to a person. Smh...the uncalled for "mystery" you are inventing is causing you a lot of problem.

You keep avoiding the crux of the matter. You claimed God doesn't know our future or end before we create it.
5a/ How then does he reveal the destiny of Esau and Jacob who had not yet made choices in the womb?
5b/ How does he also tell of Judas Iscariot's destiny , before his birth and his choices, Acts 1:20?

By declaration
The Office of A betrayer was Declared by GOD! No literal person was destined to occupy the office. It could have been Peter, Paul, John, James , anybody! But Because God has declared it, someone must fill in that office.
God isn't foreknowing anything, he is declaring them! Yet here you are trying to force an illusion into reality.
Did he ever tell you he looked into time and saw Judas betraying? You seem not to know that it has been declared since the OT.

No literal names, yes, but you have not answered my question. There are those who are outside the city who are not in the lamb's scroll of life.
6a/ Are these people not existing? If so, your stance that anything God didn't forthtell, is nonexistent is false?

The lake of fire is not in the city. So what are saying? How is the stance false? You will just say what you feel like(from some science perspective) and then say "if so, your stance is false". Who does that? Show where and how the stance is false.

6b/ and who brought them into existence?

They were never extinguished before. Invalid question again.

6c/ If it was God that declared them into existence, then it means his word which declares according to his nature of only good has been overturned by them? God's word has failed then or
6d/ if God created them and none can undo what God does, then how were they able to end up in a reality opposed to God's foreknowledge.

It's like you interprete the book of revelation in a way different from everyone. Don't assume we have the same interpretation and start asking questions with no base.

I wonder when you're gonna stop repeating this mantra of absence of light like some new revelation.
7/ You keep contradicting yourself as expected. You said only we and God have the ability to create our end which God doesn't know before it is created. Now these people have created realities and an end against god's. So it means the end is different from the beginning, again.

Which people? Those in revelations? How did they Create it? You will just come from Pluto and ask questions on earth. Sorry sir, we don't work with the same constant of gravity

Like I said until you understand God's state of existence, you'll keep getting things mixed up.
Psa 139:11-12 If I say "surely the darkness will cover me", even night will be light about me. Yes the darkness hides not from you but the night shines as the day. The darkness and the light are both alike to you.
Learn not to mix up contexts. The only meaning here is that the darkness is as visible, rather than obscure, to God as light.
8a/ Meaning God knows darkness just as well as he knows light, not that God's darkness is light. This is already against your stance on foreknowledge?
Isa 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things
Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil, light and darkness.

Misinterpretation happens when you don't know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha"

8b/ This is also clearly against your stance concerning predestination which is supposed to only be according to God's solely good nature?

Making claims without content. How am I against my stance? Show it!

The point is you used this to strike out God knowing the end from travelling through time to the end, which you labeled foreknowledge, but that he only knows the end from the beginning, i.e. creating it or forthtelling.
9/ Now do you accept that God also has foreknowledge of our end apart from forthtelling?

The point is, the lots of Christians misinterpreted Isaiah46:10. God never said "foreknow", he said " declare ". You lot then try to help God claim what is not true by cunningly interpreting declare as foretell.

10/ As for your stance on the foetuses. You're really kidding, aren't you. Does any foetus go to hell, like during an abortion or a little baby that dies, since these haven't chosen Christ?

I hate baseless opinion. Show me a single bible verse that shows anything gets saved and goes to Heaven without Christ.

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.

You said so. The word of God is consistent with mine.

Blabbermouth:

I did told you to go check 1King19:15-18 but you didn't and you continued to bask in the same illusion.
1Kings19:15-18:
15. And the Lord said unto him, Go return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when you get there,anoint Hazael to be king over Syria
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold Hazael's kingship.
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshishall you anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt you anoint to be prophet in your room
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold/Declared Jehu as King and Elisha as prophet in Elijah's room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
Commentary: God himself used Jehu and Hazael to punish Israel for their iniquities
Now relating 1kings19:15-18 to 2kings8:12-13, we are perfectly in line with the word of God when we say:
1. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be King of Syria and Elijah (being a prophet) was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold.
This is the exact part where you err. You think Foreknowing is a prophet seeing what will happen in the future, no! It's seeing what the LORD God has forthtold to happen in the future.
2. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be the Instrument God will use to punish Israel for their iniquities and Elijah was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold, even the specifics (of the punishment). This is where you err again, Elijah did not by some divine means look into what will happen in the future (this is not foretelling)... Elijah was able to see what God has forthtold/declare to happen in the future(this is what foretelling actually is).
3. 2kings8:12 were specifics of How God intends to punish Israel.

Answer: The prophet knew what God has Forthtold to happen in the future, which is - God will punish Israel through Hazael: that is what foretelling is in prophecy.

God can engineer you to kill a king. He can use you to punish anybody. That was God using Hazael to punish Israel.

You write about Forthtelling and many times mean Foretelling. I've been trying to make you see that the "coming to pass" of a Forthtelling fall squarely upon the shoulder of the one who does the Forthtelling. To every Forthtelling, the power of God ensure the declarations to be.

In the case of Hazael, I wanted you to look at the specific details such as Hazael dashing children on the rocks and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women. Such level of evil was "forthtold" meaning that Hazael MUST necessarily do that according to the word of God.

Forthtelling means bringing to pass according to the declaration.
Example 1.:
Gen 16:12:
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him: and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Gods declaration
2. God made Ismael a wild and troublesome man
3. Ishmael couldn't have changed it even if he wanted
4. Ismael is NOT guilty of his behaviours
Example 2.:

Matt 10:22:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Jesus's declaration
2. Jesus will make people of the world to hate His disciples
3. The world cannot but hate Christians even if they don't want
4. The world is NOT guilty of their hate for Christians

Example 3.:

Matt 26:24:
"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter God's declaration
2. God has prepared the man that will sell Jesus for 30pieces of silver
3. Judas could not have avoided betraying Jesus
4. Judas is NOT guilty for betraying Jesus

It is impossible to absolve God from the evil caused by men through his Forthtelling.

Do you agree with the implications of the three examples above?

Blabbermouth:

We've ironed this before na. I'm not saying there is no foretelling, I'm saying there is no foretelling when it comes to God.
When a prophet foretells, there are two principal cases
1. When the prophet sees what God has declared to happen in the future
2. When the prophet sees a " IF/IF NOT" dependent forthtelling of God. For example, God will tell him "This this this will happen if he Goes" and "this this this will happen if he does not Go". One of the scenes can be selected and it's dependent on the prophecy-receiver choice (take Nineveh as a case study)....
Anyways, It must require God's direct declaration or God's permission for another person's declaration...
When I say " another person's declaration " I mean - for example: I will go to work tomorrow is your declaration. God can look and say "Mumu, I will collect your life this night"... In this case, the person's declaration will not come to pass. Or God can say, "My Boy, I permit your going to work".... In this case, the person's declaration will come to pass.
Read Amos1
Said what?

@Highlight
God cannot Foretell the future BUT only Gods Prophets can Foretell!?

@Red colour
Can you see how you successfully mixed up Forthtelling with Foretelling? You say a prophet can only foresee what God has forthtold.

Forthtelling involves execution of the WILL of God or Do you think we can separate the will of God from what He forthtells?

In case you still don't get it. Look at this scripture

Acts 9:15-16:
"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Do you know the implication of God cannot Foreknow, He can only Forthtell?

It means that God arranged the suffering for Paul even before Paul became a follower of Christ.
Do you think it makes sense?

God is sending Paul on a mission and at the same time is arranging great sufferings for him.

Doesn't it make sense to you that God has foreknown the kind of great sufferings Paul must pass through in doing His work and the information is to prepare Paul for the worst?

Blabbermouth:

You have misplaced something again. No specifics here, they are all collective!
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that chose Christ till the end.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that denied Christ in the last days.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall the Devil, fallen angels and the likes.
God didn't make anyone evil! Please explain how my view supports that Rev9:20-21 shows that God made some people evil.

You still get things mixed up subconsciously thinking forthtelling means DECLARING EVERYTHING.

I answered with consistency to the word of God.

You can't look at Revelation without looking at SPECIFICS of what had been spoken by God. Whatever God had spoken in the book of Revelation is God's responsibility to FULFILL (good or bad). Hence, God has to engineer evil people to be really good at evil. To behead believers, to enforce the mark of the beast .... and God will then turn round to throw these evil people into the Lake of Fire. Don't forget that if God has declared it, the power of God will ensure and enforce it.

Can't you still see that you make God unjust by this your theory?

You still get things mixed up subconsciously thinking forthtelling means DECLARING EVERYTHING.

Yes, forthtelling means DECLARING and enforcing to happen EVERYTHING that was spoken.
e.g. Hazael smashing babies on the rock and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women

Blabbermouth:


That was why Joshua would say "Sun stand still!"... We both know sun literally has been standing still so is the Bible now a story book? No! It was recorded that from an human perspective that " the sun stood still " ... Should God then bring Joshua into the most holy place and start teaching him astronomy? There are many cases I could point out from the old testament that confirms what I am saying to be true. This is what many atheist do not know and I am ever grateful that Sir. JesusJnr2020 did perfect justice to that recently.

Haba na with the bolded? jesusjnr is just a servant, Jesus is the Master oh. God makes all things possible even the confounding of atheists to the extent that they're not able to gainsay or resist as was foretold by the Master Himself concerning His disciples. So it's neither by my power nor by my might but by the Spirit of God and to Him be all the glory.

Much love bro, I actually enjoyed the justice you did concerning this subject on those your posts I acknowledged.

God bless.

Seems you've lost your cool and are breathing out frustration. Also seems the spirit of religion is lurking. That which turned christianity into a religion because people are not humble enough to admit when a previously held position is insufficient and needing modification. Seems you have only one mission now, to prove for ego sake that you're not wrong, rather than to investigate the truth of the matter.
When you cannot give coherent defence to the 9 critiques and yet cannot accept the exposure of obvious flaws in your doctrine, then there's no point even engaging, your ego is at work.
Read through your own thread, you've consistently jumped from one stance to another constantly shape-shifting and twisting things until you not only contradict yourself but also make no sense at all and have no ultimate stance.

Blabbermouth:
If God said Lucifer was perfect, then that means He didn't create Lucifer foreknowing that Lucifer will fall. No! God didn't declare that!

Here you make foreknowing and declaring/forthtelling mean the same thing but later you say they're different.

1/ According to you, creation(Lucifer and co) will produce realities alien to God's original state and therefore the end will not be as the beginning since Satan and evil are alien to god's original state of existence?

Blabbermouth:
God's darkness is light still. When John Said "God is light, in him is no darkness". Here he was talking about the kind of darkness associated with the devil. In all sense, the darkness of the devil is a phenomenon.

This is just Smh, facepalm pathetic. Hear yourself, "God's darkness is still light". You claimed so from Psalm 139:11-12. We torchlighted it in its context and refuted it but you still hold on to the lie asides that it even contradicts your own statement here:

Blabbermouth:

IS GOD ACTUALLY OMNISCIENT?
Just as the case with His omnipotent ability, the omniscient ability of God is also confined by the NATURE OF WHO HE IS. God is light, He is Life, and He is Existence Himself, therefore darkness, death and nonexistence cannot be found in him.

Next to 2/.

2/ You've changed your stance again. Now, God knows evil you say. Before you said he knows nothing outside his nature which excludes darkness, death, evil which are all the absence of his light essence?

Blabbermouth:
You do not know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha" that's why you confused yourself and thought I changed my stance. God knowing Ra'ah is not Exceeding his nature, Ra'ah is not Rasha! Go and see Psalms 136:9-22.

Smh, someone pls call 911. How low will you go with this.
Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil (ra'ah) in the eye of YHWH and YHWH killed him.

Gen 6:5 And YHWH saw that the wickedness(ra'ah) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil(ra'ah) continually.
2/ So God here and all over OT judges people for ra'ah kind of evil but you say it's part of God's nature and it's okay to be evil as long as not 'resha' evil? Don't even get us started on ra'ah else you display your ignorance. I have a million verses to point out your fraud.

3/ So God grows in knowledge and gets to know things he didn't originally know. Your god is a learner?

Blabbermouth:
You had better take that nonsense last sentence back. God's ground state knowledge is Infinity. If you add 100,000 to infinity, what do you get? Infinity! Divinity (i.e Divine Infinity) does not increase with human knowledge. God Himself said to Abram - For I now Know. If you ain't happy, take it up with God for saying so. Answer this when you are replying me. Before God foreknows and after he foreknows, has he increased in knowledge?

LMAO @ the bolded. I had never wanted your "nonsense" claim. Please keep all of it.
3a/So God didn't foreknow Abe will obey him but he foreknew Abe will command his unborn kids to obey him before Abe ever did and even knew they will obey the commandments.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, he will command his children and his household after him, and they will guard the way of YHWH, to do justice and judgment, that YHWH may bring on Abraham what he promised.
3b/ Even Moses foreknew Israel will do "ra'ah" evil after he departs, Deut 31:29 and God will punish them?
For the record, Gen 22:12. It was an angel, not YHWH himself, who got to know that Abe feared God above all

4/ If your stance is that God updates his knowledge with our actions, then God is not a constant and the end of God is different from his beginning. This is breaking the laws of the universe. Do you agree to this?

Blabbermouth:
Which law? Who wrote the law? That's the problem, you are trying to stitch science with Truth. God is a constant Infinity not a constant finity. If he was finite in his ground state, then he increased in knowledge. If he was and still is infinite, there was no increase. You got warped from Trinity where you thought God the Father can be limited to a person. Smh...the uncalled for "mystery" you are inventing is causing you a lot of problem.

4/ Again, you will keep contradicting yourself to save your ego. You say God has no foreknowledge of our end then turn around and say he has infinite foreknowledge. Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out, which is why it can't be increased or reduced, so just quit trying to twist things. Funny you, too if you don't realise that the laws of the universe reveal the invisible qualities of God.

You keep avoiding the crux of the matter. You claimed God doesn't know our future or end before we create it.
5a/ How then does he reveal the destiny of Esau and Jacob who had not yet made choices in the womb?
5b/ How does he also tell of Judas Iscariot's destiny , before his birth and his choices, Acts 1:20?

Blabbermouth:
By declaration. The office of a betrayer was Declared by GOD! No literal person was destined to occupy the office. It could have been Peter, Paul, John, James, anybody! But Because God has declared it, someone must fill in that office. God isn't foreknowing anything, he is declaring them! Yet here you are trying to force an illusion into reality. Did he ever tell you he looked into time and saw Judas betraying? You seem not to know that it has been declared since the OT.

5a/You can never get yourself out of the wormhole you put yourself in. Whether anyone's name was tagged to fulfilling this declaration or not. Fact is if God declared, then some man must fulfill and it's God's that has destined this evil inconsistent with his good nature.
5b/ Now again, you say God, from infinite foreknowledge, has gone to zero foreknowledge @ the bolded.
5c/Also going by your logic, God declared all the evil being done on earth by Satan and men, but without attaching any particular name to it. He therefore must be responsible for evil on earth whoever it comes through. Maybe you believe in Isaiah 45:6 in a strange way, afterall, LMAO!

No literal names, yes, but you have not answered my question. There are those who are outside the city who are not in the lamb's scroll of life.
6a/ Are these people not existing? If so, your stance that anything God didn't forthtell, is nonexistent is false?

Blabbermouth:
The lake of fire is not in the city. So what are saying? How is the stance false?

6a/ Smh, give up bro. So if the Lake of fire is not in the city, it is nonexistent?

6b/ and who brought them into existence?

Blabbermouth:
They were never extinguished before. Invalid question again.

6b/So you agree God declared these men into existence, yet having declared only according to His solely good nature, his word failed in their life, hence they produced evil instead. God's word can fail?

6c/ If it was God that declared them into existence, then it means his word which declares according to his nature of only good has been overturned by them? God's word has failed then or
6d/ if God created them and none can undo what God does, then how were they able to end up in a reality opposed to God's foreknowledge.

Blabbermouth:
It's like you interpret the book of revelation in a way different from everyone. Don't assume we have the same interpretation and start asking questions with no base.

6c&6d/ In other words, no reasonable answer cause you can't justify it. Cool.

I wonder when you're gonna stop repeating this mantra of "absence of light" like some new revelation.
7/ You keep contradicting yourself as expected. You said only we and God have the ability to create our end which God doesn't know before it is created. Now these people have created realities and an end against god's nature. So it means the end is different from the beginning and from god, again.

Blabbermouth:
Which people? Those in revelations? How did they Create it? You will just come from Pluto and ask questions on earth. Sorry sir, we don't work with the same constant of gravity

7/ In other words, no answer. Cool.

Like I said until you understand God's state of existence, you'll keep getting things mixed up.
Psa 139:11-12 If I say "surely the darkness will cover me", even night will be light about me. Yes the darkness hides not from you but the night shines as the day. The darkness and the light are both alike to you.
Learn not to mix up contexts. The only meaning here is that the darkness is as visible, rather than obscure, to God as light.
8a/ Meaning God knows darkness just as well as he knows light, not that God's darkness is light. This is already against your stance on foreknowledge?
Isa 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things
8b/Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil, light and darkness.

Blabbermouth:
Misinterpretation happens when you don't know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha"

8a/ ra'ah and Rasha myth concocted in your lab busted earlier already. Come up with a valid answer now.

8b/ This is also clearly against your stance concerning predestination which is supposed to only be according to God's solely good nature?

Blabbermouth:
Making claims without content. How am I against my stance? Show it!

8b/ Isaiah 45:6 definitely trashed your claim that God only declares consistent with his good/light nature exclusive of any evil/darkness you made below.

Blabbermouth:

IS GOD ACTUALLY OMNISCIENT?
Just as the case with His omnipotent ability, the omniscient ability of God is also confined by the NATURE OF WHO HE IS. God is light, He is Life, and He is Existence Himself, therefore darkness, death and nonexistence cannot be found in him.

Next to 9/

The point is you used this to strike out God knowing the end from travelling through time to the end, which you labeled foreknowledge, but that he only knows the end from the beginning, i.e. creating it or forthtelling.
9/ Now do you accept that God also has foreknowledge of our end apart from forthtelling?

Blabbermouth:
The point is, the lots of Christians misinterpreted Isaiah46:10. God never said "foreknow", he said " declare ". You lot then try to help God claim what is not true by cunningly interpreting declare as foretell.

Remember, bro. I'm yet to reveal my stance. Only scrutinizing your 'know-all' claims. And the point is even you are wrong for disbelieving in God's foreknowledge because he only forthtold in Isa 46:10.

10/ As for your stance on the foetuses. You're really kidding, aren't you. Does any foetus go to hell, like during an abortion or a little baby that dies, since these haven't chosen Christ?I hate baseless opinion.

Blabbermouth:
Show me a single bible verse that shows anything gets saved and goes to Heaven without Christ.

Smh. I already gave you Romans 7:9. 10a/ But seriously, why not tell us plainly, can a foetus or two year old of an unbeliever go to hell? and if so
10b/ under what conditions.

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.You said so.

Blabbermouth:
The word of God is consistent with mine.

Not another lie again, smh! All heretics say same. The word of God doesn't lie like your theory does. If you love the word enough, go reassess yours.
Wanna know a secret? There's a little piece in your theory that if tweaked could put it all together but since you're unwilling to admit the current flaws, you'll never find your way into it. I know you'll rather come back with another shape-shifting roll instead.

One thing you must learn in our encounter is never again come out like one having the supreme knowledge because in the realm of knowledge, we all are learners and what any of us knows is only a minute fraction of the sum total of knowledge. Humility is an accomplice of knowledge (not false one you came out with questioning everyone as if wanting to learn when all the while, deep down inside, thinking you knew better).

shadeyinka:

You write about Forthtelling and many times mean Foretelling. I've been trying to make you see that the "coming to pass" of a Forthtelling fall squarely upon the shoulder of the one who does the Forthtelling. To every Forthtelling, the power of God ensure the declarations to be.

"Coming to pass of a declaring depends primely on God (whether directly or indirectly".
Nowhere have I misplaced forthtelling for foretelling.

In the case of Hazael, I wanted you to look at the specific details such as Hazael dashing children on the rocks and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women. Such level of evil was "forthtold" meaning that Hazael MUST necessarily do that according to the word of God.

The specific details were specifics of the punishment God is meting out on Israel. Since it was declared by God, it's not Evil but a calamitous Judgement.

Forthtelling means bringing to pass according to the declaration.
Example 1.:
Gen 16:12:
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him: and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

This was a blessing. Did you pull this out of context?

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Gods declaration
2. God made Ismael a wild and troublesome man
3. Ishmael couldn't have changed it even if he wanted
4. Ismael is NOT guilty of his behaviours
Example 2.:

Which behaviors? Bible verse! Jacob blessed His 12 sons and the blessing stuck from Generation to Generation. Not all of them had a desirable blessing like Judah's or like Joseph's, yet it is blessing still. Why are you then using blessings to justify nonsense?
Press forward and again, you will see I am consistent with the word of God.
Gen17:20
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him........."
He then continues to add to it and said "and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly;twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation:"
Even Abraham knew that there was no future. His confidence was in the fact that God can make Sarah give birth at a old age and not that God entered some divine time machine and saw how Sarah still begat Isaac. (I speak as a man).
We can look into the blessings of Judah, Levi and the likes and I will show you how your father's blessing can alter your freewill (Go and ask Esau)... Where you err is thinking that freewill is the will of a man to do anything he likes. No! It doesn't work that way. The point where freewill is unrestrained is the power it has in choosing your salvation or your damnation.

Matt 10:22:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Jesus's declaration
2. Jesus will make people of the world to hate His disciples
3. The world cannot but hate Christians even if they don't want
4. The world is NOT guilty of their hate for Christians

As if I also don't know humans. That was no forthtelling, He was stating the obvious. How many people are throwing stones at you in your work place? How many hate you? If that was forthtelling, you would have lost a hand or your phone forcefully taken away, and we both might not be able to even have this discussion as no one might be willing to see card to me now.

Example 3.:

Matt 26:24:
"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter God's declaration
2. God has prepared the man that will sell Jesus for 30pieces of silver
3. Judas could not have avoided betraying Jesus
4. Judas is NOT guilty for betraying Jesus

It is impossible to absolve God from the evil caused by men through his Forthtelling.

Jesus said "It would have been good for him if he had not been born". Why did God then still create Judas? You see, the office of the BETRAYER has been prophesied before Judas himself and no literal name was written. It could have been Peter, James, John, Jude, Matthew or anybody. No wonder why Jesus prays so fervently for Peter and He at one place said to Peter - " Satan desires to sift you like wheat "..... Judas was the one who ended up there. Now, would it shock you if you see Judas in heaven? I would have elaborated but our discussion will shift focus.

Do you agree with the implications of the three examples above?

There were no unwanted implications.

@Highlight
God cannot Foretell the future BUT only Gods Prophets can Foretell!?

You make it sound as if I said the prophets can see what God cannot see.
I'm saying the prophet can see what has been forthtold or permitted to happen by God - that Is what foreseeing actually is. Don't get it twisted with your " there exist a record of everyone's future" mindset.

@Red colour
Can you see how you successfully mixed up Forthtelling with Foretelling? You say a prophet can only foresee what God has forthtold.

Forthtelling involves execution of the WILL of God or Do you think we can separate the will of God from what He forthtells?

You mixed it up with your mindset.

In case you still don't get it. Look at this scripture

Acts 9:15-16:
"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Do you know the implication of God cannot Foreknow, He can only Forthtell?

It means that God arranged the suffering for Paul even before Paul became a follower of Christ.
Do you think it makes sense?
God is sending Paul on a mission and at the same time is arranging great sufferings for him.

He should have arranged a banquet for him, isn't that so? Let the word of God speak again:
James1:2-4
My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into diverse testing and trying times. 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Remember that Bible verse where it says that "Testing will surely come, but God will not test you with more than you can handle".... Also that scripture that says "Rejoicing in hope; Patient in tribulation ; ......"
No wonder the Lord is called a Refiner's fire. Know that a vessel has not attained full honor ability until it is unbreakable (Job comes to mind). That was not God being wicked to Paul, the suffering were inevitable but God still didn't shield Paul from it, they were all necessary for his vesselic perfection (I mean "maturity).

Doesn't it make sense to you that God has foreknown the kind of great sufferings Paul must pass through in doing His work and the information is to prepare Paul for the worst?

Even I would have foreknown. Anybody in the country would have foreknown. Imagine the Christians claiming they now have a new king when the country's king is not yet dead. What do you think will happen? A big feast? Definitely not, it's tribulation all the way.

You can't look at Revelation without looking at SPECIFICS of what had been spoken by God. Whatever God had spoken in the book of Revelation is God's responsibility to FULFILL (good or bad). Hence, God has to engineer evil people to be really good at evil. To behead believers, to enforce the mark of the beast .... and God will then turn round to throw these evil people into the Lake of Fire. Don't forget that if God has declared it, the power of God will ensure and enforce it.

You just spoke like a witness.
Christ's death was worse than any of the saints, that was God's own son o!
Peter's death is nothing anyone wishes for.
Stephen's death is something you can't help but feel sorry for him.
Go read the history of the first church, many were burnt alive, flayed, boiled in oil and many Terrible death.
The beheading of the saints will happen, and its all for the glory of God.
You keep highlighting "murderers, idolaters and the likes".... What do you expect? Who are those that will go to hellfire before? We both know (even without any omniscient power) that we have murderers now and we will continue to have. We both know that we have idolaters now and we will continue to have. Where is forth telling there? In fact, where is foretelling there? It's just the obvious being stated.

Can't you still see that you make God unjust by this your theory?

Except you've mixed something up again. My view (being consistent with God's word) does not in any way make God unjust. In fact, A God that can look into time and not stop somethings from happening is more unjust. (I speak as a man again)

Yes, forthtelling means DECLARING and enforcing to happen EVERYTHING that was spoken.
e.g. Hazael smashing babies on the rock and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women

Why cry foul? Israel was used to mete out worse Judgment to other kingdoms. Why cry foul? Israel was used to smash babies on rocks! Why cry foul? Israel was used to make a bubbling kingdom desolate.
The Judgement of God is a fiery Judgement and even if it was God's chosen city that committed so great iniquity, God will not overlook!
He used Syria to punish Israel and the baby dashing on rocks, tearing open of the womb were specifics of the Judgement.
It seems you believed God punish Hazael for doing those stuffs, no! If ever Hazael was punished, it was for another reason. The Amos1:4 you asked about is not even about Hazael at all. Hazael was before Amos, so it wasn't Hazael.
The phrase "house of Hazael" was used to show that the dynasty is now under the kingship of the bloodline of Hazael. Just like you will say "house of David" and then refer to Jeroboam.

DrLiveLogic:

....

You are the reason why our conversation has not been healthy and edifying. I've been discussing with Shade and Muttley and wherever we don't understand each other, we make sure we confirm if we perfectly get what the other party meant.
There were many instances where you misunderstood me, you ought to confirm but you didn't. You moved on to believing you were perfect with what you believed you got.
If you want to argue with no essence and means for edifying, then it's a waste of time. If otherwise, let's clear each other out:

1. I said "God cannot exceed his nature"
If God can exceed his nature, then that means He can stop being God! Because, God is His nature and God's nature is God.

2. I said "Darkness, Evil, Death, and Nonexistent" does not exist in God's nature.
I meant "Darkness as a separation from the source of Light&Darkness"...
Satan didn't invent something new, He Got separated from his source.
If this " darkness " exist in God, then it means God can be separated from his source.
II. I meant "Evil as a result of doing anything (whether it is good&Evil you) outside of God's perfect will"
Satan did not invent something new. He did the same thing outside the will of God.
If this Evil exist in God's nature, then God can do something outside his own perfect will (e.g fornicate)
III. I mean "Death as the separation from the source of life".
Satan separated himself from the source of Life (Just like Adam) and they both died.

3. I said " God does not foreknow the future because the future because the future does not exist"....
If you did follow, you see how I've explained myself.

4. I said there is no future aside what God Has Declared or permitted to happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This best sum up my view. I've also set a base of meaning for my use of "Evil" , "Darkness" and the likes.
Take this up and crosscheck with my replies to your question, whereever necessary, give your commentary of where my view is insufficient.
If you believe I contradict myself anywhere, show it, don't just say it.

You say there is something missing, is that not so? Alright, show me.

You derive joy thinking you are winning some brawl. In all honesty, I still don't see anything from your questions but cited many places where you misunderstood me.
Tender your questions, tender my previous answers and let's continue from there.
Also, don't forget to show me this "mysterious mystery of God" that I am missing.

The only problem you're having with them is your refusal to take a bow before their TRINITY Dogheads, just do that and every other thing you're saying the will surely approve!

Blabbermouth:

You are the reason why our conversation has not been healthy and edifying. I've been discussing with Shade and Muttley and wherever we don't understand each other, we make sure we confirm if we perfectly get what the other party meant.
There were many instances where you misunderstood me, you ought to confirm but you didn't. You moved on to believing you were perfect with what you believed you got.
If you want to argue with no essence and means for edifying, then it's a waste of time. If otherwise, let's clear each other out:

1. I said "God cannot exceed his nature"
If God can exceed his nature, then that means He can stop being God! Because, God is His nature and God's nature is God.

2. I said "Darkness, Evil, Death, and Nonexistent" does not exist in God's nature.
I meant "Darkness as a separation from the source of Light&Darkness"...
Satan didn't invent something new, He Got separated from his source.
If this " darkness " exist in God, then it means God can be separated from his source.
II. I meant "Evil as a result of doing anything (whether it is good&Evil you) outside of God's perfect will"
Satan did not invent something new. He did the same thing outside the will of God.
If this Evil exist in God's nature, then God can do something outside his own perfect will (e.g fornicate)
III. I mean "Death as the separation from the source of life".
Satan separated himself from the source of Life (Just like Adam) and they both died.

3. I said " God does not foreknow the future because the future because the future does not exist"....
If you did follow, you see how I've explained myself.

4. I said there is no future aside what God Has Declared or permitted to happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This best sum up my view. I've also set a base of meaning for my use of "Evil" , "Darkness" and the likes.
Take this up and crosscheck with my replies to your question, whereever necessary, give your commentary of where my view is insufficient.
If you believe I contradict myself anywhere, show it, don't just say it.

You say there is something missing, is that not so? Alright, show me.

You derive joy thinking you are winning some brawl. In all honesty, I still don't see anything from your questions but cited many places where you misunderstood me.
Tender your questions, tender my previous answers and let's continue from there.
Also, don't forget to show me this "mysterious mystery of God" that I am missing.

DrLiveLogic:

When you cannot give coherent defence to the 9 critiques and yet cannot accept the exposure of obvious flaws in your doctrine, then there's no point even engaging, your ego is at work.

Your misunderstanding is not my fault.

Read through your own thread, you've consistently jumped from one stance to another constantly shape-shifting and twisting things until you not only contradict yourself but also make no sense at all and have no ultimate stance.

Somehow you seem to be the only one seeing me jumping ships. Again sir, you are twisting words to satisfy your self.

Here you make foreknowing and declaring/forthtelling mean the same thing but later you say they're different.

LMAO. I never said God Forthtold Lucifer to fall. Once again, you couldn't comprehend my simple sentences.

This is just Smh, facepalm pathetic. Hear yourself, "God's darkness is still light". You claimed so from Psalm 139:11-12. We torchlighted it in its context and refuted it but you still hold on to the lie asides that it even contradicts your own statement here:
Next to 2/.

Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha.... As if I've never seen these bible verses:
Psalms 97:2
"Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteous and judgement are the habitation of his throne"
Psalms 18:11
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were Dark waters and thick cloud of skies.
Where did he see those "Darkness"? Perhaps he went to borrow 5 yards of darkness from the Devil. The darkness in this context is not the same meaning as the one in
1 John 1:5
"...... God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"
I and John used Darkness in the same "meaning".
In Isaiah 45:7
" I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create calamity: I the Lord do all these things "
My God wasn't talking about the 1john1:5 meaning of Darkness (remember I and John used the word "darkness" in the same meaning). My God was more of the Psalms97:2 and Psalm18:11 kind of Darkness.
Learn not to assume a word has the same meaning in every verse.

Smh, someone pls call 911. How low will you go with this.
Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil (ra'ah) in the eye of YHWH and YHWH killed him.

Gen 6:5 And YHWH saw that the wickedness(ra'ah) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil(ra'ah) continually.
2/ So God here and all over OT judges people for ra'ah kind of evil but you say it's part of God's nature and it's okay to be evil as long as not 'resha' evil? Don't even get us started on ra'ah else you display your ignorance. I have a million verses to point out your fraud.

I speak not as a Man. If I come over to your house and beat you almost to death with a club, and I said it is Good or Ra'ah. Will you organize a party for me? Every Ra'ah done outside the will of God is the one God judges you for.
If I come to your house and beat you to death with a club (following God's order), as a man, that is "Ra'ah" to you but God will tell me kudos for it.
So you see now, When God said "know Good and evil" , He still was not exceeding his nature.

3a/So God didn't foreknow Abe will obey him but he foreknew Abe will command his unborn kids to obey him before Abe ever did and even knew they will obey the commandments.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, he will command his children and his household after him, and they will guard the way of YHWH, to do justice and judgment, that YHWH may bring on Abraham what he promised.

Smiles.... That was God's confidence in Abraham and there was nothing like foreknowledge there. The same confidence I have in my wife that she will not cheat and I wrote her name boldly in my will. The same confidence God had in Job when he struck a dare with the Devil. Learn something from the Job, God and Devil saga - "Lucifer(fallen or not) knows God far more than you do, yet He entered a dare with God who knows already what the outcome of a dare will be. Who does that?! If God foreknows future, Lucifer in all his time in heaven would be aware and he won't even accept the dare. However because the account of Job's faithfulness/faithlessness is undefined and nonexistent, Lucifer believed he had a shot.
Answer this, a book said God tested David to count the population of Israel and he fell into it. Another book said the devil tested David to count the population of Israel and David fell into it. A. Who actually tested David? B. Why was He tested?

3b/ Even Moses foreknew Israel will do "ra'ah" evil after he departs, Deut 31:29 and God will punish them?

C'mon stop that thing! Ah ah? Moses said he "Know" not "foreknow". Don't try to help Moses claim what he didn't say. Again, do you remember what happened when Moses was only for a while away with God receiving the tablets? What did Israel do? So you see again, that's not foreknowledge. That was Moses' confidence in Israel's infidelity the moment they have no able leader present.For the record, the people did fairly well under Joshua.

For the record, Gen 22:12. It was an angel, not YHWH himself, who got to know that Abe feared God above all

Lmao! Jesssuuuu! Seriously?!
Gen16:10
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply your seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Who multiplied the seed? The Angel or YHWH?
C'mon don't go off board trying to sew science with Truth.

4/ Again, you will keep contradicting yourself to save your ego. You say God has no foreknowledge of our end then turn around and say he has infinite foreknowledge. Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out, which is why it can't be increased or reduced, so just quit trying to twist things. Funny you, too if you don't realise that the laws of the universe reveal the invisible qualities of God.

Again? You said "Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out"... Whose definition is this? Ha ha haha As far as I know, infinite means " unquantifiable ". I.e God's knowledge cannot be defined by a finite number.
Which laws? State them before you make outrageous claims!

5a/You can never get yourself out of the wormhole you put yourself in. Whether anyone's name was tagged to fulfilling this declaration or not. Fact is if God declared, then some man must fulfill and it's God's that has destined this evil inconsistent with his good nature.

Would it shock you if you don't see Judas in Hell? Let's not go there, the talk is not for today.

5b/ Now again, you say God, from infinite foreknowledge, has gone to zero foreknowledge @ the bolded.
5c/Also going by your logic, God declared all the evil being done on earth by Satan and men, but without attaching any particular name to it. He therefore must be responsible for evil on earth whoever it comes through. Maybe you believe in Isaiah 45:6 in a strange way, afterall, LMAO!

Smiles.... Wherever you don't understand, ask them before you concote blunders in your assessment. My view does not make God evil, even 1%.

6a/ Smh, give up bro. So if the Lake of fire is not in the city, it is nonexistent?
6b/So you agree God declared these men into existence, yet having declared only according to His solely good nature, his word failed in their life, hence they produced evil instead. God's word can fail?

Lol. As if those people were saints. They are all of their father the devil, where do you want them to be? In quarantine?

6c&6d/ In other words, no reasonable answer cause you can't justify it. Cool.
7/ In other words, no answer. Cool.

In other words, ask to know if you got a person right before you misunderstand him.

8a/ ra'ah and Rasha myth concocted in your lab busted earlier already. Come up with a valid answer now.

Another poor assessment.

8b/ Isaiah 45:6 definitely trashed your claim that God only declares consistent with his good/light nature exclusive of any evil/darkness you made below.

From someone who did not interpreted Isaiah45:6 well. Where did I say "God only declares" ?

Remember, bro. I'm yet to reveal my stance. Only scrutinizing your 'know-all' claims. And the point is even you are wrong for disbelieving in God's foreknowledge because he only forthtold in Isa 46:10.

Hahahahahahaha I wasn't even the one that brought up the Isa 46:10. Concerning your stance, you can state them. I learned from everyone's stance, I will definitely learn from yours.
While on that, tell me why you preach the gospel if only some people are destined to listen according to some sci-fi foreknowledge.
Do well to answer that please.

Smh. I already gave you Romans 7:9. 10a/ But seriously, why not tell us plainly, can a foetus or two year old of an unbeliever go to hell? and if so
10b/ under what conditions.

Have you forgotten that we all have a copy of the same bible?
Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died
How does this prove a foetus get saved/ goes to heaven without Christ?

Blabbermouth:
Your misunderstanding is not my fault.

Pointless back and forth. Already figured out what you're about since plus your ego. Your so called doctrine is half-truth, very porous and easy for any random analyst to spot the weaknesses.

Somehow you seem to be the only one seeing me jumping ships. Again sir, you are twisting words to satisfy your self.

Expected you would tell yourself so but both Muttley/laff telling you how "twisted you are without needing any help" and shade, in almost all his posts, have pointed it out. Heck, everyone sees it except you.

LMAO. I never said God Forthtold Lucifer to fall. Once again, you couldn't comprehend my simple sentences.

Why are you avoiding the point which is how you mix up things and later change? plus you've even said: "...anything God didn't forthtell is nonexistent..." and Lucifer and his fall are existing, so....Apart from even telling shade that foreknowledge and predestination were at the same point. It's why you were told you're twisted.

Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha.... As if I've never seen these bible verses:
Psalms 97:2 "Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteous and judgement are the habitation of his throne"

Where did he see those "Darkness"? Perhaps he went to borrow 5 yards of darkness from the Devil.

**Facepalm**,smh. Wonder why it took you so long to bring out these verses. I had been anticipating them the moment you tried smuggling your "darkness is light" fraud LMAO! You just can't get any more twisted. So you believe God's light is darkness because he wrapped himself in a cloud. Smh. You're not a very thorough bible student. Learn to go beyond KJV and study original languages.

FYI, "Clouds and darkness" in Psalm 97:2 are two Hebrew words that always go as a pair in OT. Simply means "regular clouds(as in the day sky) and thick clouds(as in for rain)". FYI, these clouds are lit up with his glory light like the sun lighting up a cloud. Remember, the pillar of light-giving fire covered up in a cloud in daytime in the wilderness, right? You can never generate the fraud "God's "darkness" is still light" from the bible. Give it up.

As for Psalm 18:11, LMAO. You should learn to read the context of a verse before quoting it henceforth.
Psa 18:9-12... He spread out the heavens and descended with a thick cloud under his feet, riding on a cherub, he flew down, darting on the wings of the wind. He made the darkness his covering and his pavilion surrounding him were dark waters and the thick clouds of vapour. And with the brightness before him he passed the heavy clouds, with hail stones and coals of fire....
FYI, this describes a descent into the realms of darkness and waters and what God did with the dreaded darkness in all its power showing he knew every trick in their book and used darkness to as a play thing. It is not describing God's state in heaven which is
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which none can approach.
1 John 1:5" God is light, and in him is no darkness at all
Jas 1:17 ... the Father of lights, with whom is no alteration, neither shade of turning.
Not today bro, no place for you to hide, Light is everywhere here (pun intended) and clearly established that there is no special kind of darkness/evil with God.

The darkness in this context is not the same meaning as the one in...

Smh. Fraud!

I speak not as a Man.

Only as a conceited man. Dude, you are so lost in your bubble. When you ever get true light, you'll be set on a mountain for men to see, not self-claiming on nairaland. Go get true light.

If I come over to your house and beat you almost to death with a club, and I said it is Good or Ra'ah. Will you organize a party for me? Every Ra'ah done outside the will of God is the one God judges you for.If I come to your house and beat you to death with a club (following God's order), as a man, that is "Ra'ah" to you but God will tell me kudos for it. So you see now, When God said "know Good and evil" , He still was not exceeding his nature.

Give up man. Ra'ah is ra'ah. It's used with only one meaning - evil, bad, wicked, opposite of good, always and this was it's meaning in Isaiah 45:6

Smiles.... That was God's confidence in Abraham and there was nothing like foreknowledge there. The same confidence I have in my wife that she will not cheat and I wrote her name boldly in my will.

Smh. God knew what Abraham was gonna do before he did it. Now you change your stance again. Before you said God does not know what we will do before we do it like with Lucifer and it doesn't exist. You will only keep twisting and confusing yourself until you admit your theory's flaws.

The same confidence God had in Job when he struck a dare with the Devil. Learn something from the Job, God and Devil saga - "Lucifer(fallen or not) knows God far more than you do, yet He entered a dare with God who knows already what the outcome of a dare will be. Who does that?!

Think deep man, think! Lucifer dwells in darkness. He's so driven by negative energy that he doesn't repent of evil. Don't you know he even already knows his end from the apocalypse and the prophets? Why then doesn't he just quit. God dwells in light, he knows all and nothing is hidden from him but has to let things run their course for justice sake. Learn this.

If God foreknows future, Lucifer in all his time in heaven would be aware and he won't even accept the dare. However because the account of Job's faithfulness/faithlessness is undefined and nonexistent, Lucifer believed he had a shot.
Answer this, a book said God tested David to count the population of Israel and he fell into it. Another book said the devil tested David to count the population of Israel and David fell into it. A. Who actually tested David?
B. Why was He tested?

Learn again, Lucifer doesn't know and he has every right to test it as the custodian of the earth.

C'mon stop that thing! Ah ah? Moses said he "Know" not"foreknow". Don't try to help Moses claim what he didn't say. Again, do you remember what happened when Moses was only for a while away with God receiving the tablets? What did Israel do? So you see again, that's not foreknowledge. That was Moses' confidence in Israel's infidelity the moment they have no able leader present. For the record, the people did fairly well under Joshua.

Dude, define foreknowledge please and my point which you dodged cause you isolated this part was that there are occasions of foreknowledge all over the bible. What about Esau and Jacob, you keep avoiding? What about all prophecy in the bible?

Gen16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply your seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Who multiplied the seed? The Angel or YHWH? C'mon don't go off board trying to sew science with Truth.

**Facepalm**. Are you really asking this even after quoting the text? Smh. Now, back to my point, it was the angel of YHWH who got to know that Abe feared God above all. God already knew.

Again? You said "Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out"... Whose definition is this? Ha ha haha As far as I know, infinite means "unquantifiable ". I.e God's knowledge cannot be defined by a finite number.

Aren't you always funny? Why is infinity unquantifiable exactly? LMAO! I wonder if you did math?

Which laws? State them before you make outrageous claims!

My goodness!, Smh over and over. You keep going lower and lower on the scale. You really don't know the laws of nature reflect God's unseen realities?
Start reading your bible. Romans 1: 19-20, Hebrews 11:3. Bless your heart.

Would it shock you if you don't see Judas in Hell? Let's not go there, the talk is not for today.

LMAO! I don't think anything you try now can still shock me.

Smiles.... Wherever you don't understand, ask them before you concote blunders in your assessment. My view does not make God evil, even 1%.

In other words you still couldn't answer 5b& 5c. Only making claims.

Lol. As if those people were saints. They are all of their father the devil, where do you want them to be? In quarantine?

And you still couldn't justify 6a or 6b. Just throwing back unrelated questions.

In other words, ask to know if you got a person right before you misunderstand him.

And you didn't explain what was misunderstood because you still couldn't answer 6c&6d &7. Cool.

8a/ Another poor assessment.

From your end, I guess. LMAO! Rasha and ra'ah myth remains nonexistent, even after you declared it. LMAO!

From someone who did not interpreted Isaiah45:6 well. Where did I say "God only declares" ?

8b/ Did you not read your own post I reproduced? "God only declares according to His good nature exclusive of darkness, death..." Except you wanna change it again. Now justify 8b.

Hahahahahahaha I wasn't even the one that brought up the Isa 46:10. Concerning your stance, you can state them. I learned from everyone's stance, I will definitely learn from yours.

Right! For people with your kind of ego, we scrutinize such claims. Until you tell us squarely, what you never knew before and got to know, from who on the thread, this seems just superficial false humility.
About my stance, you got so excited at your breakthrough revelation, you didn't settle down to soak it all in. Else by now you'd have developed it further and have seen more light. Like I said before, this isn't some to be handled as loosely and shallow as you have hence the contradictions. If you really understood the nitty gritty, you'd know to start from establishing the original divine state, the mystery of triuneness, origin of evil and co. I can't state my stance, it'll have no basis and be misunderstood. These are prerequisites. And your attitude here hasn't been a bit encouraging. You more of want to be right than know the truth. I like engaging objective and critical minds.

While on that, tell me why you preach the gospel if only some people are destined to listen according to some sci-fi foreknowledge. Do well to answer that please.

The question is invalid as you've attached this stance to me not that I claimed it. Even shade's position I once held easily does justice to this as he already showed you.

Have you forgotten that we all have a copy of the same bible?
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
How does this prove a foetus.

***Facepalm**, smh. First off, try answering 10a and 10b. Second, try expounding on the text, let me even see what you make of it.
Third, going to heaven was never about getting saved. They weren't saved when in heaven, they were just where their spirits belonged before they came to earth, remember?
Now try answering 10a, 10b and Romans 7:9 exposition. This is how I can guide you into its meaning.
Also remember all the other questions I've asked are yet to be defended till date. Your theory still remains very porous plus your cover-up that you aren't being understood is also weak.

And tbh, I'm not even seeing any light at the end of our tunnel. You've proven yourself already, you don't concede ever. Your ego depends on it. You'd rather be right than investigate the depths of truth. I see no point of our back and forth. Since you love to believe you've seen the whole light, then keep it. Some people might still gain something from some of your half-truths but you'll ultimately be short-changed. Good luck with that and maybe we could give this a rest.

DrLiveLogic:
MuttleyLaff, the questions you answered were for Blabbermouth actually to defend his position plus I had outlined them later.

My ignorance? Continue like how?
Are you so lost in your bubble of 'know-all', you can't even take the time to understand this simple statement?
Again, knowledge is so vast doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated or that we stay in ignorance. It only means we have to limit it to contexts when discussing else we speak ad infinitum without beginning or ending or a focus in sight. LMAO!
Cc: MuttleyLaff

Blabbermouth is too far right up himself, he isn't seeing the light of day

DrLiveLogic:
Again, bugging questions in my heart? Watch it man! You've come off repeatedly all over your thread as one who thinks he's come here to educate everyone else from some deeper and higher realm none ever approached. In the realm of knowledge, we all are learners. Whatever you think you know, there are thousands out there you may never meet who know much more. Humility is an accomplice of true knowledge.

The lack of humility, if not checked, is a sure banker going to lead you to your Waterloo

DrLiveLogic:
And you finally avoided my questions. Huh! Wonder why you and MuttleyLaff so stuck up on the no-brainer: "darkness is the absence of light" that any kindergartener can tell that you totally missed my question. LMAO!

[img]https://media./images/14cd04951335766288c672c30e186f98/tenor.gif[/img]
What did heck?
MuttleyLaff so stuck up on the no-brainer:
"darkness is the absence of light" that any kindergartener can tell... Hmm? Whats that all about? How do you mean?

DrLiveLogic:
Now if you'd gladly answer my question:
2/ What does God mean by knowing good and evil since in your thesis, God knows only light, life and good and nothing not found in his nature? Please don't be evasive this time or try explaining what needn't be. While at it, you may need try going back to my #1 question you evaded.

I am sensing you dont know that "Good and Evil" is a figure of speech, just as I earlier have given a snapshot view or explanation of what the TKGE means and signifies, erhn?

What does "Ladies and Gentlemen" or "it rained cats and dogs" mean and signify?

DrLiveLogic:
...haha! But you 'forgot' to answer the question too. LMAO!
Now please tell us unequivocally:
3/ after a sinner makes a wrong choice or set of choices, does God then know what reality they've created and does he then their end?

Never judge God with limited human being reasoning and/or logic. Don't put limitations on God

DrLiveLogic:
You being evasive again. It's wise to always know when to say "I think I missed a spot" or "need to think about it". You can or else try again to answer the question with simple yes or no.

I wished you took to some of these advices if not all when you attempted those 1o easy, simple, harmless, innocent, direct and straightforward questions I asked you

DrLiveLogic:
You sir seem the only one here getting it mixed up and trying so hard to force him outside your imaginary line. MuttleyLaff, shadeyinka and I get it clearly because it's straightforward as a speed-train. BTW, all foetuses are heaven-bound until the age of accountability to choose sin and alter that - Paul's meaning in Romans 7:9

Inasmuch as foetuses, never made it into fallen world, they automatically are kingdom of Heaven bound, based on the fact that they havent been born to exercise inherited Adamic sin nature, which they might have been required to account for

DrLiveLogic:
3 persons? What you were told but the Triuneness of YHWH (Father, Word and Spirit) though is one Being.

Smh. Start here , go through #1- #6 and if you can refute all, then let's go for the jugular or else admit that YHWH (Word and Father) is one Being.

There is only one God. The Lord God is one. It so happen He reveals Himself to us in the Bible, in at least three persons/forms starting with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The same God reveal Himself to Moshe aka Moses, as a bush on on flames but not burning. He revealed Himself to the Israelites, as a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night. He reveals Himself as the Angel of the Lord. God is I AM that I AM. He will be whatsoever is necessary for Him to be and so God is infinite/infinity persons

DrLiveLogic:
Nah! Can't trust you now. You seem to be up to something fishy about trying to refute the Divinity of Christ and we haven't even cleaned up some of the mess you've made with this subject yet. If you ask me, I'd say some things are safer "not permitted to be said". LMAO!

God chose the "trying to refute the Divinity of Christ" things of the world to confound the wise

DrLiveLogic:
5/ Try Romans 9:11-16 for starters.

Your answer to him is just you being all over the place except where needed. So,

Dont mind Blabbermouth. He is more confused than a fart let loose on a fan making active production floor

DrLiveLogic:
6/ who are those not found in the book of life? and did God have a purpose for them when they came to earth?

If God permitted them to come to earth, then be rest assured they have a purpose for being here

DrLiveLogic:
7a/ These sinners create realities outside of God, we see this all around as existent. But according to you these realities if outside God's, are non-existent. Explain this clearly.

No human being create realities that contravenes what is divinely permissible

DrLiveLogic:
7b/ If these realities they created exist as we see them all around, then is the end different from the beginning?

Are you able to go back into your mother's womb, so to be at the beginning, huh?

DrLiveLogic:
Why bother about my opinion? You claim to be the one in the know, remember?
8/ You said God has no evil/darkness in him and only forthtells what is consistent with his nature. So justify it with Isaiah 45:7 is all I'm saying.

[img]https://s3/images/FacePalmSmh.gif[/img]
"And Jesus said to him,
“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
- Mark 10:18

Have you ever read of Yahushua Ha Mashsiach aka Jesus Christ ever do any evil or have any dark/darkness about Him, huh? The way any ardent and wise 2 Timothy 2:15 stickler would reconcile Isaiah 45:7, is that when God withdraws, darkness befalls. There is this famous saying that says: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that God good men should do nothing

DrLiveLogic:
Why getting unnerved? Plus everyone's got flaws huh? To throw at you but no flaw of your own, huh? Smh. Well, I didn't say you called it foretelling.
I'm saying you've used God's forthtelling here to strike out his foreknowledge, saying he doesn't know but only decrees, when in reality these two attributes are distinct and coexistent. Isn't that what you did?

This is a classic case of contravening the second commandment.

It is unfortunate that, ever since God took the adventure to create man in His image and likeness, man retrospectively has had the desire to want to return the favour and wilfully contravene "The Second Commandment" (i.e. Exodus 20:4 - "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth'') by creating God in his image, according to an atypical representation, formulation, theory, perverted idea, and classic misunderstanding and misrepresentation of God

DrLiveLogic:

Why are you avoiding the point which is how you mix up things and later change? plus you've even said: "...anything God didn't forthtell is nonexistent..." and Lucifer and his fall are existing, so....Apart from even telling shade that foreknowledge and predestination were at the same point. It's why you were told you're twisted.

When I Made mention of "anything future God didn't declare is nonexistent"...., I then continued and said, Angels, Humans, any being with a freewill and an active force can also declare. Lucifer declared his fall the moment he said " I will" .

**Facepalm**,smh. Wonder why it took you so long to bring out these verses. I had been anticipating them the moment you tried smuggling your "darkness is light" fraud LMAO! You just can't get any more twisted. So you believe God's light is darkness because he wrapped himself in a cloud. Smh. You're not a very thorough bible student. Learn to go beyond KJV and study original languages.

FYI, "Clouds and darkness" in Psalm 97:2 are two Hebrew words that always go as a pair in OT. Simply means "regular clouds(as in the day sky) and thick clouds(as in for rain)". FYI, these clouds are lit up with his glory light like the sun lighting up a cloud. Remember, the pillar of light-giving fire covered up in a cloud in daytime in the wilderness, right? You can never generate the fraud "God's "darkness" is still light" from the bible. Give it up.

As for Psalm 18:11, LMAO. You should learn to read the context of a verse before quoting it henceforth.
Psa 18:9-12... He spread out the heavens and descended with a thick cloud under his feet, riding on a cherub, he flew down, darting on the wings of the wind. He made the darkness his covering and his pavilion surrounding him were dark waters and the thick clouds of vapour. And with the brightness before him he passed the heavy clouds, with hail stones and coals of fire....
FYI, this describes a descent into the realms of darkness and waters and what God did with the dreaded darkness in all its power showing he knew every trick in their book and used darkness to as a play thing. It is not describing God's state in heaven which is
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which none can approach.
1 John 1:5" God is light, and in him is no darkness at all
Jas 1:17 ... the Father of lights, with whom is no alteration, neither shade of turning.
Not today bro, no place for you to hide, Light is everywhere here (pun intended) and clearly established that there is no special kind of darkness/evil with God.

You still seem to not understand my use of "darkness". Where did you ever see Jesus do anything dark or come off as "darkness" to you? Such as I would then use the statement " God's darkness is still light". He smites king and allows babes to be dashed on rocks, his love endures forever. "Smiting of kings and dashing of babies on rocks" are humanly seen as things of "the dark" or "darkness". But If God is at the reins of this action, it is not!

Give up man. Ra'ah is ra'ah. It's used with only one meaning - evil, bad, wicked, opposite of good, always and this was it's meaning in Isaiah 45:6

How your model of evil God can judge the world of evil is what still makes me laugh. You still seem not to understand that man's standpoint is different from God's. Ra'ah/resha is the same to a Man(so he will use it interchangeably). I don't care if you were sent by God to kill my only son, that's evil to me still. However from God's standpoint, that's a kudos to you.

Smh. God knew what Abraham was gonna do before he did it. Now you change your stance again. Before you said God does not know what we will do before we do it like with Lucifer and it doesn't exist. You will only keep twisting and confusing yourself until you admit your theory's flaws.

Lmao @the bolded. Another scripture twisting, opinion forcing and whatever-i-feel-should-be-right-blunder. I just showed you how that same verse was nothing like foretelling. Bring something stronger.
Romans9:11-16 that you brought is another evidence of God's forthtelling and not foretelling. The writer ended it by writing of God "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on. Show compassion on whom I will show it to."

Think deep man, think! Lucifer dwells in darkness. He's so driven by negative energy that he doesn't repent of evil. Don't you know he even already knows his end from the apocalypse and the prophets? Why then doesn't he just quit. God dwells in light, he knows all and nothing is hidden from him but has to let things run their course for justice sake. Learn this.

Think deeper man, why create Lucifer then? If he didn't create him, we would all be saved a whole hell of trouble. I won't even be here trying to get myself saved. You won't even be here. There is no "course for justice" in anything here. You also wrote "Lucifer dwells in darkness". What kind of darkness do you mean here? The same one God hides himself with?

Learn again, Lucifer doesn't know and he has every right to test it as the custodian of the earth.

Once a light bearer does not know that the God he has been ministering before knows the future?! Light bearer? C'mon that's very weak, Lucifer can school us all on God. Saying "Lucifer doesn't know" is a bad defence.

Dude, define foreknowledge please and my point which you dodged cause you isolated this part was that there are occasions of foreknowledge all over the bible. What about Esau and Jacob, you keep avoiding? What about all prophecy in the bible?

I didn't avoid anything, I answered you. You are just hellbent on believing in your foreknowledge stuff.
Esau and Jacob were a result of God's declaring and orchestration. Read the same Romans 9:11-16 that you gave. This time, in-between the lines.

**Facepalm**. Are you really asking this even after quoting the text? Smh. Now, back to my point, it was the angel of YHWH who got to know that Abe feared God above all. God already knew.

No! God never told you He knew already. Stop forcing preconceived opinion into scriptures. God multiplied the seed of Ishmael not the Angel that said "I will". Use that same concord for the verse and it was still God that " now knows ".

Aren't you always funny? Why is infinity unquantifiable exactly? LMAO! I wonder if you did math?

Your own definition was outta this planet, LMAO. Saying infinitity means everything possible and more. The definition I gave is " God's knowledge cannot be quantified by a finite number". His knowledge is "unlimited". That's the standard definition of infinity, not the new one you formulated.

My goodness!, Smh over and over. You keep going lower and lower on the scale. You really don't know the laws of nature reflect God's unseen realities?
Start reading your bible. Romans 1: 19-20, Hebrews 11:3. Bless your heart.

That's not what we are on about. You made mention of " law of the universe"... Do state the law.

In other words you still couldn't answer 5b& 5c. Only making claims.
And you still couldn't justify 6a or 6b. Just throwing back unrelated questions.

You keep saying "those people"... I don't even know who you are referring to.

And you didn't explain what was misunderstood because you still couldn't answer 6c&6d &7. Cool.

Ask them plainly. If I didn't understand, then I didn't get your question.

From your end, I guess. LMAO! Rasha and ra'ah myth remains nonexistent, even after you declared it. LMAO!

Another lie concoted in your bubbles. Where did I say so?

8b/ Did you not read your own post I reproduced? "God only declares according to His good nature exclusive of darkness, death..." Except you wanna change it again. Now justify 8b.

Quote me. You still seem not to understand a man's use of "darkness" , uh?

Right! For people with your kind of ego, we scrutinize such claims. Until you tell us squarely, what you never knew before and got to know, from who on the thread, this seems just superficial false humility.
About my stance, you got so excited at your breakthrough revelation, you didn't settle down to soak it all in. Else by now you'd have developed it further and have seen more light. Like I said before, this isn't some to be handled as loosely and shallow as you have hence the contradictions. If you really understood the nitty gritty, you'd know to start from establishing the original divine state, the mystery of triuneness, origin of evil and co. I can't state my stance, it'll have no basis and be misunderstood. These are prerequisites. And your attitude here hasn't been a bit encouraging. You more of want to be right than know the truth. I like engaging objective and critical minds.

No qualms... Since you believe so.

The question is invalid as you've attached this stance to me not that I claimed it. Even shade's position I once held easily does justice to this as he already showed you.

Inva-what? Give me an answer please.

***Facepalm**, smh. First off, try answering 10a and 10b. Second, try expounding on the text, let me even see what you make of it.

Answer mine. We stopped at 9 not 10.

Third, going to heaven was never about getting saved. They weren't saved when in heaven, they were just where their spirits belonged before they came to earth, remember?

Where was their spirits before they came to earth? Bible verse please.

Now try answering 10a, 10b and Romans 7:9 exposition. This is how I can guide you into its meaning.
Also remember all the other questions I've asked are yet to be defended till date. Your theory still remains very porous plus your cover-up that you aren't being understood is also weak.

Should I quote Romans 7:9 again? How does it justify what you believed? Unlike you, I don't misunderstand people and run off thinking they are wrong. With Romans7:9, explain how a foetus gets saved/goes to heaven without Christ.

Blabbermouth:

"Coming to pass of a declaring depends primely on God (whether directly or indirectly".
Nowhere have I misplaced forthtelling for foretelling.

You have indeed several times described Forthtelling and mixed it up with descriptions of Foretelling.

To every Forthtelling, the power of God ensure the declarations to be.
And
To every Foretelling, Gods the power simply relates that which is to be.

Blabbermouth:

The specific details were specifics of the punishment God is meting out on Israel. Since it was declared by God, it's not Evil but a calamitous Judgement.

This was a blessing. Did you pull this out of context?

That Ishmael will be a wild beast of a man a blessing!!? You've completely misrepresented what God was saying.

Yes indeed, God has blessed Ismael. He will increase in population. He would not be destroyed.
BUT
By character, he would be a WILD man (Quarrelsome, Uncultured)

Gen 16:12:
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man , and every man's hand against him: and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

Sorry sir. This wasn't a curse nor a forthtelling but a Foretelling of the kind of man that Ismael would be.

This same is playing out today within the Arab world. If they are not fighting with themselves, they are fighting with their neighbours.

Blabbermouth:

Which behaviors? Bible verse! Jacob blessed His 12 sons and the blessing stuck from Generation to Generation. Not all of them had a desirable blessing like Judah's or like Joseph's, yet it is blessing still. Why are you then using blessings to justify nonsense?
Press forward and again, you will see I am consistent with the word of God.
Gen17:20
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him........."
He then continues to add to it and said "and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly;twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation:"
Even Abraham knew that there was no future. His confidence was in the fact that God can make Sarah give birth at a old age and not that God entered some divine time machine and saw how Sarah still begat Isaac. (I speak as a man).
We can look into the blessings of Judah, Levi and the likes and I will show you how your father's blessing can alter your freewill (Go and ask Esau)... Where you err is thinking that freewill is the will of a man to do anything he likes. No! It doesn't work that way. The point where freewill is unrestrained is the power it has in choosing your salvation or your damnation.

A Blessing doesn't mean that a report of his character is a curse.

The fact that Ishmael was blessed didn't change his character. WILD like a donkey.

It seems you don't understand the meaning of freewill: for if freewill can be altered then it's no more free. If I put a speed limiter on the car I gave my son (set to a maximum of 30km/he) do you think he still has the freedom to travel at 120km/HR even if he really want to?
Does it make sense If I gave him a commandments not to exceed 100km/hr?

Freewill is the ability of man to choose according to his conscience and volition to the limit of his potential.

Blabbermouth:

As if I also don't know humans. That was no forthtelling, He was stating the obvious. How many people are throwing stones at you in your work place? How many hate you? If that was forthtelling, you would have lost a hand or your phone forcefully taken away, and we both might not be able to even have this discussion as no one might be willing to see card to me now.

It was a foretelling of what will be. The disciples will be hated of all people.

Blabbermouth:

Jesus said "It would have been good for him if he had not been born". Why did God then still create Judas? You see, the office of the BETRAYER has been prophesied before Judas himself and no literal name was written. It could have been Peter, James, John, Jude, Matthew or anybody. No wonder why Jesus prays so fervently for Peter and He at one place said to Peter - " Satan desires to sift you like wheat "..... Judas was the one who ended up there. Now, would it shock you if you see Judas in heaven? I would have elaborated but our discussion will shift focus.

There were no unwanted implications.

@bold
Your Forthtelling doctrine actually explains this. God compelled on of the disciples to betray Jesus

Zech 11:13:
"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

You say the office of the betrayer had be Forthtold. Which mean that God decided that someone MUST betray Jesus and God had to look for that someone. It seem to me that God had to compel Satan to even enter into Judas

Luke 22:3:
"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscar´i-ot, being of the number of the twelve."

Don't forget that Jesus FORTHTOLD that it was Judas that will betray Him.
Matt 26:23:
"And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me."

Would you NOW agree that Judas was Chosen to fulfill this role according to your Forthtelling doctrine?

And even then, when Judas knew he was compelled by the force of Forthtelling to execute the betrayal AND
Jesus refused to pray for Judas.

How is this then Judas's fault? (According to your Forthtelling doctrine)

Please explain this o!

Blabbermouth:

You make it sound as if I said the prophets can see what God cannot see.
I'm saying the prophet can see what has been forthtold or permitted to happen by God - that Is what foreseeing actually is. Don't get it twisted with your " there exist a record of everyone's future" mindset.

You mixed it up with your mindset.

You did actually say that. Prophets can both forthtell and Foretell but God can only Forthtell.

Blabbermouth:

He should have arranged a banquet for him, isn't that so? Let the word of God speak again:
James1:2-4
My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into diverse testing and trying times. 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Remember that Bible verse where it says that "Testing will surely come, but God will not test you with more than you can handle".... Also that scripture that says "Rejoicing in hope; Patient in tribulation ; ......"
No wonder the Lord is called a Refiner's fire. Know that a vessel has not attained full honor ability until it is unbreakable (Job comes to mind). That was not God being wicked to Paul, the suffering were inevitable but God still didn't shield Paul from it, they were all necessary for his vesselic perfection (I mean "maturity).

Even I would have foreknown. Anybody in the country would have foreknown. Imagine the Christians claiming they now have a new king when the country's king is not yet dead. What do you think will happen? A big feast? Definitely not, it's tribulation all the way.

You just spoke like a witness.
Christ's death was worse than any of the saints, that was God's own son o!
Peter's death is nothing anyone wishes for.
Stephen's death is something you can't help but feel sorry for him.
Go read the history of the first church, many were burnt alive, flayed, boiled in oil and many Terrible death.
The beheading of the saints will happen, and its all for the glory of God.
You keep highlighting "murderers, idolaters and the likes".... What do you expect? Who are those that will go to hellfire before? We both know (even without any omniscient power) that we have murderers now and we will continue to have. We both know that we have idolaters now and we will continue to have. Where is forth telling there? In fact, where is foretelling there? It's just the obvious being stated.

With due respect, you are the one arguing like a JW. See how you brought out an unrelated scripture

Let me help you out!


John 21:18-19:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

Using your Forthtelling theory, can you see that it was Jesus who DETERMINED the kind of death that Peter will die and not the world?

Did Jesus arrange the kind of death Peter will die?


Let me help you with another one.

Peter betraying Jesus couldn't have been Peters fault but Jesus (according to your Forthtelling doctrine).

Matt 26:34:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."
Using your Forthtelling doctrine, can you explain this? (For it looked like the Devine forced Peter to deny Jesus three different times and not once or twice or four times?

See how you doctrine is falling apart let me a pack of cards!

Blabbermouth:

Except you've mixed something up again. My view (being consistent with God's word) does not in any way make God unjust. In fact, A God that can look into time and not stop somethings from happening is more unjust. (I speak as a man again)

Sorry, your views is NOT consistent with the integrity of God as God is JUST!

Blabbermouth:

Why cry foul? Israel was used to mete out worse Judgment to other kingdoms. Why cry foul? Israel was used to smash babies on rocks! Why cry foul? Israel was used to make a bubbling kingdom desolate.
The Judgement of God is a fiery Judgement and even if it was God's chosen city that committed so great iniquity, God will not overlook!
He used Syria to punish Israel and the baby dashing on rocks, tearing open of the womb were specifics of the Judgement.
It seems you believed God punish Hazael for doing those stuffs, no! If ever Hazael was punished, it was for another reason. The Amos1:4 you asked about is not even about Hazael at all. Hazael was before Amos, so it wasn't Hazael.
The phrase "house of Hazael" was used to show that the dynasty is now under the kingship of the bloodline of Hazael. Just like you will say "house of David" and then refer to Jeroboam.

According to your Forthtelling doctrine, God specifically said that Hazael will
1. Cut open the belly of pregnant women
2. Smash babies bodies against the wall

Who is responsible: Hazael or God for these evil?

Compare with the God that is humane even with animals
Exod 34:26:
"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."


Have you also noted according to your theory that "God cursed Israel with bad kings?"

1 Sam 8:9,11:
"Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. … And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots."

God could have forthtold better things for Israel: don't you think so?

shadeyinka:

To every Foretelling, Gods the power simply relates that which is to be.

The one God wrote or the one you wrote before your existence?
Many Christians do not see (or chose not to see) that if God foretells, then there is an higher power orchestrating a higher declaration. I will pull this string now and you will see what I mean.

That Ishmael will be a wild beast of a man a blessing!!? You've completely misrepresented what God was saying.

Like you choose the kind of characters you wanted before existing. The same way I chose that I will be a peaceable boy.

It seems you don't understand the meaning of freewill: for if freewill can be altered then it's no more free. If I put a speed limiter on the car I gave my son (set to a maximum of 30km/he) do you think he still has the freedom to travel at 120km/HR even if he really want to?
Does it make sense If I gave him a commandments not to exceed 100km/hr?

Freewill is the ability of man to choose according to his conscience and volition to the limit of his potential.

Show me freewill in this!
Exodus 4:21
"when you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hands: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go"
Because of God's orchestration, Exodus5:2 happened
"And Pharaoh said, who is the LORD, that I should Obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go"
Again!
Exodus 7:3
" And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt"
Because of God's orchestration (not Pharaoh's free will!) , Exodus7:13 happened
"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said"
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
Then it was capped up with this statement that God himself said
Exodus 9:16
"And in very deed for this cause have I raised you (Pharaoh) us, for to shew in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."
Eewo! Did you hear that?! Did you hear what God just said?
He claimed he made Pharaoh, raised him up so that He (God) can show the whole of Israel, Egypt and the world that He is very powerful. He was using Pharaoh!
Where is the freewill?
The Lord took Jeremiah to a potter's shop and showed him a potter using the clay to mould whatever he wills.
And God said to him "Can I just like the potter not use you (the clay) to mould what I want?"
Where is the perfect free will of the clay?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I once engaged an atheist and he was all over the place telling me how everything is material and nothing so spiritual. He kept claiming "free as a bird", " freewill" and "free free".... Alright, Alright, Alright! I said. If you are 100% free, I will give you a list of commandments and if you can by your own free will observe them for 10 days, then there is no " spirituality " and you are 100% free.
He was someone I know well, so I knew his weaknessess and soft spots. He didn't last 3days before he broke most of the commandments. He tried again and failed. He tried again and failed. Where is the freewill?!
What happened to him is the same reality everyone under the domain of death face
Romans 7:15,18,24
15.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not: but what I hate to do (I.e don't want to do) , I do
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will(my will, my freewill!) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
That scripture is what made me realize that freewill is very much dependent on the domain you operate in. It is not totally free o! If you are in the domain of death, you will continue to lament that you want (by your free will) to stop masturbation but you keep going back doing what is against your will.
Also, if you are in the domain of LIFE, your freewill is a slave to the will of God. That life is not totally yours o! Infact, everything is meant to bring glory to God, even your death!
Hahahahahahaha, Hallelujah!
The death of many believers has been declared to bring Glory to God, praise God!
Jesus' death was forthtold not foretold! Any other way, salvation would have been a coincidence.

It was a foretelling of what will be. The disciples will be hated of all people.

It's a no-brainer. There is no foretelling!

@bold
Your Forthtelling doctrine actually explains this. God compelled on of the disciples to betray Jesus

Forthtelling or foretelling, someone was doomed!
By forthtelling, the question will be "Why declare such for one of the apostles?"
By foretelling, "why did God not just decide not to create him?".... Even Christ attested that it would have been better if he was not created.

Zech 11:13:
"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

You say the office of the betrayer had be Forthtold. Which mean that God decided that someone MUST betray Jesus and God had to look for that someone. It seem to me that God had to compel Satan to even enter into Judas

Luke 22:3:
"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscar´i-ot, being of the number of the twelve."

Don't forget that Jesus FORTHTOLD that it was Judas that will betray Him.
Matt 26:23:
"And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me."

Would you NOW agree that Judas was Chosen to fulfill this role according to your Forthtelling doctrine?

Let me drop more scriptures
Psalms 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me"
Psalms109:8
"Let his days be few; and his office, let another take"
Now many believed all this to be prophecies of Judas' betrayal.
To the Foretellers, how did a nonexisting Judas chose (of all things to be chosen) to betray Jesus? Why didn't God stop him?
To forthtelling, why declare such an office seeing that one is doomed to fall?
Well you see, it's a mystery yet to be solved (100% I mean). The Foretellers take the weight from God by saying, He only foretold, he didn't forthtell. We both know it's weak and it doesn't solve anything.
However, I won't be surprised to see Judas in heaven (infact, I'm expecting him!).

And even then, when Judas knew he was compelled by the force of Forthtelling to execute the betrayal AND
Jesus refused to pray for Judas.

How is this then Judas's fault? (According to your Forthtelling doctrine)

Please explain this o!

Come and see how almost heartless this sounded (I speak as a man).
John17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost...
Jesus then went on to say.....
" but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled! "
Did you hear that? Christ could have kept him! The word of God could have prevented it! Why didn't he?
Christ said he suffered (allowed) him to be lost that the scripture might be fulfilled! When scriptures are being fulfilled then it is an act of forthtelling.
1Peter3:18-19 could have happened to Judas and that would make everything perfect.

You did actually say that. Prophets can both forthtell and Foretell but God can only Forthtell.

What did I tell you the prophets are foretelling? Is it not what God has forthtold?
If God is to foretell, then he would be foretelling what a higher declarer/forthteller has forthtold (God forbid!).

John 21:18-19:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

Using your Forthtelling theory, can you see that it was Jesus who DETERMINED the kind of death that Peter will die and not the world?

Did Jesus arrange the kind of death Peter will die?

That was foretelling what God has forthtold. Peter's death was for the glory of God.

Peter betraying Jesus couldn't have been Peters fault but Jesus (according to your Forthtelling doctrine).

Matt 26:34:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."
Using your Forthtelling doctrine, can you explain this? (For it looked like the Devine forced Peter to deny Jesus three different times and not once or twice or four times?

The denial of Peter was one of the greatest lesson to the saints. Again, it was declared.

According to your Forthtelling doctrine, God specifically said that Hazael will
1. Cut open the belly of pregnant women
2. Smash babies bodies against the wall

Do you have Psalms137:8-9 in your bible? Check it out!
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
That was Israel doing what you are condemning Hazael for. Who shall be say is evil in this case, God or Israel?
You seem to mistake God's punishment for Evil.

Who is responsible: Hazael or God for these evil?

No evil, just punishment! 1kings19:17.

Compare with the God that is humane even with animals
Exod 34:26:
"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

Which God permitted this?
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
There is that loving, vanilla, pampering dimension of God.... That same entity can be scary when it comes to punishment and Judgement!

Have you also noted according to your theory that "God cursed Israel with bad kings?"

1 Sam 8:9,11:
"Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. … And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots."

God could have forthtold better things for Israel: don't you think so?

Don't force it sir!
The first King was Saul, how bad was he?
The second King was David, he was a very Good king (So did God's foretelling fail?)
The third King was Solomon, you know any other time Israel enjoyed economic peak as under the years of Solomon? (Did God's foretelling fail again?)
We had good guys like
1. Hezekiah
2. Josiah
3. Asa
And many more.... Are they bad kings?
There was no foretelling or forthtelling in the scripture you gave.

[img]https://s3/images/FacePalmSmh.gif[/img]
Smh at above avalanche of confused dot com

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s3/images/FacePalmSmh.gif[/img]
Smh at above avalanche of confused dot com

I prefer not to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways" and ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries than say "God saw it all, I don't know how we wrote our own script before our nonexistence but I know he saw it all, and in all, He didn't do anything, he set evil in motion when he created Lucifer, because he prefer to allow a whole lot of mess to happen than hinder his creativity"....
That best sums us all up, don't you think?

Blabbermouth:
I prefer not to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways" and ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries than say "God saw it all ...

No one expects you to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways"

God, by default, is Mysterious. Even in Yoruba cosmology and mythology, His essence and nature is beautifully captured, the best, in being identified and called "Eledumare" or "Olodumare", of which, the portmanteau Yoruba word, when loosely translated means, the Owner or Custodian of absolute energy and infinite mysteries, who has knowledge of all blessings, so God being Mysterious, and expecting human beings, His creation to "ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries" about Him, blessed us with the brain, which isn't an ornament to decorate the body with, but is this powerfully built processing functional gift, given for a purpose, reason and such a time as like this, other than sitting on our hands or folding the hands, resigning to "God saw it all ..."

Blabbermouth:
I don't know how we wrote our own script before our nonexistence but I know he saw it all ...

We write our own scripts by living life, with our interactions, from making choices, from taking decisions et cetera. Also, the way you play the hand you are dealt, is how you write your own script.

Of course, unlike human beings, God being Omni-Know-Everything, Omni-Know-All, being Omni-See-All, Omni-Nothing-is-Hidden-From-Him et cetera

Blabbermouth:
... and in all, He didn't do anything

Please be fair and stop making unrighteous judgment(s) YOU cant back up

1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?
2/ Is that really not doing anything?

Blabbermouth:
... he set evil in motion when he created Lucifer, because he prefer to allow a whole lot of mess to happen than hinder his creativity"....
That best sums us all up, don't you think?

No, it best sums up, what an unappreciative person with a disturbing soul you are, laying accusations on God, making negative comments about Him and doing all that, without considering the fact and truth, you don't at all, have the entire low down and precise details of the whole matter. Instead of treading carefully you are throwing caution to the wind, taking swipes indiscriminately at God. I guess you have forgotten about how Job too was mouthing off before God cut him down to size with realities

Lucifer, being a product of creativity, had a right to exist. Creativity must be allowed to express itself. Lucifer would be what Lucifer would. The only thing that was holding Lucifer back from being the Lucifer, he turned out to become, was simply because God's presence or better still, God's Hand was ON Lucifer. All along Lucifer was perfect in all his doings, but the minute God lifted OFF His Hand and turned His back, injustice, unrighteousness and wrong was found in him as he stopped to meet God's standard (i.e. he sinned)

Now, my dear confused dot com beloved brother friend, the good news, is that the sin situation problem God foreknew about and is what exactly He was set out to resolve once and fully, not to be a problem with all its baggages anymore.

MuttleyLaff:
No one expects you to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways"

God, by default, is Mysterious. Even in Yoruba cosmology and mythology, His essence and nature is beautifully captured, the best, in being identified and called "Eledumare" or "Olodumare", of which, the portmanteau Yoruba word, when loosely translated means, the Owner or Custodian of absolute energy and infinite mysteries, who has knowledge of all blessings, so God being Mysterious, and expecting human beings, His creation to "ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries" about Him, blessed us with the brain, which isn't an ornament to decorate the body with, but is this powerfully built processing functional gift, given for a purpose, reason and such a time as like this, other than sitting on our hands or folding the hands, resigning to "God saw it all ..."

We write our own scripts by living life, with our interactions, from making choices, from taking decisions et cetera. Also, the way you play the hand you are dealt, is how you write your own script.

Of course, unlike human beings, God being Omni-Know-Everything, Omni-Know-All, being Omni-See-All, Omni-Nothing-is-Hidden-From-Him et cetera

Please be fair and stop making unrighteous judgment(s) to cant back up

1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?
2/ Is that really not doing anything?

No, it best sums up, what an unappreciative person with a disturbing soul you are, laying accusations on God, making negative comments about Him and doing all that, without considering the fact and truth, you don't at all, have the entire low down and precise details of the whole matter. Instead of treading carefully you are throwing caution to the wind, taking swipes indiscriminately at God. I guess you have forgotten about how Job too was mouthing off before God cut him down to size with realities

Lucifer, being a product of creativity, had a right to exist. Creativity must be allowed to express itself. Lucifer would be what Lucifer would. The only thing that was holding Lucifer back from being the Lucifer, he turned out to become, was simply because God's presence or better still, God's Hand was off Lucifer. All along Lucifer was perfect in all his doings, but the minute God lifted His Hand and turned His back, injustice, unrighteousness and wrong was found in him as he stopped to meet God's standard (i.e. he sinned)

Now, my dear confused dot com beloved brother friend, the good news, is that the sin situation problem God foreknew about and is what exactly He was set out to resolve once and fully, not to be a problem with all its baggages anymore.

Alright sir.

Blabbermouth:
Alright sir.

[img]https://s4/images/MuttleyLaffJeffBridges.gif[/img]

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s4/images/MuttleyLaffJeffBridges.gif[/img]

I didn't say "alright" because I was wrong though. Concerning the 10 questions you asked, my answers won't be satisfactory as I believe in certain things you don't and you believe in certain things I don't.

Blabbermouth:
I didn't say "alright" because I was wrong though.

Numbers 32:23b says:
"... sin against the Yahweh; be sure your sin will catch up with you"

Is it your conscience pricking you or what, hmm?

Blabbermouth:
Concerning the 10 questions you asked, my answers won't be satisfactory as I believe in certain things you don't and you believe in certain things I don't.

You arent being honest to yourself my dear friend beloved dear brother because whether your answers are going to be satisfactory is neither here nor there. Also what I believe in and what you believe, doesnt prevent me from throwing investigative or probing questions at you that I expect you to, if you are not hiding anything, to honestly sincerely and truthfully answer

I guess you are afraid to face the reality of the answers you'll be giving to the 10 easy, simple, direct, harmless, innocent straightforward questions, so you rather stave them off than come face to face with the questions

Smh, even the "Please be fair and stop making unrighteous judgment(s) you cant back up" above questions too, reproduced below, you couldn't bring yourself to honestly, sincerely and truthfully give answers to:

1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?
2/ Is that really not doing anything?

MuttleyLaff:
Numbers 32:23b says:
"... sin against the Yahweh; be sure your sin will catch up with you"

Is it your conscience pricking you or what, hmm?

Conscience?! God forbid! My view depicts God as just, Loving and Perfect. What's the conscience there?? Believing a future exist is 1,000 problem to the WHO GOD IS of God. So bro, no conscience, it's me coming to realize that humans feel safe believing some fantasy future and destiny exist.
I've planted a seed though, you and Shade will one day exclaim in your mind and say "Ohhhh, this was what that Blabber guy was all on about."

You arent being honest to yourself my dear friend beloved dear brother because whether your answers are going to be satisfactory is neither here nor there. Also what I believe in and what you believe, doesnt prevent me from throwing investigative or probing questions at you that I expect you to, if you are not hiding anything, to honestly sincerely and truthfully answer

I guess you are afraid to face the reality of the answers you'll be giving to the 10 easy, simple, direct, harmless, innocent straightforward questions, so you rather stave them off than come face to face with the questions

Smiless....I will answer you then.

Blabbermouth:
Conscience?! God forbid! My view depicts God as just, Loving and Perfect. What's the conscience there?? Believing a future exist is 1,000 problem to the WHO GOD IS of God. So bro, no conscience, it's me coming to realize that humans feel safe believing some fantasy future and destiny exist.
I've planted a seed though, you and Shade will one day exclaim in your mind and say "Ohhhh, this was what that Blabber guy was all on about."

[img]https://s5/images/MuttleyLaffDrinkRollEye.gif[/img]
You have planted a seed alright.
It is called a seed of deceit, a seed of corruption, an evil seed. What an evil tangled web, you've weaved yourself in, as you continue practising your self deceit(s) Every seed brings forth after its kind. No surprises, at the sort of seed you've religiously and being busy planting

Blabbermouth:
Smiless....I will answer you then.

Honesty is a costly gift, I dont expect it from a cheap with the truth person, like you, when you or if you do decide to give your answers to the 10+2 questions. I even expect to see you bury the answers deep down under obfuscated bales of hay, stacked in rows

Blabbermouth:

The one God wrote or the one you wrote before your existence?
Many Christians do not see (or chose not to see) that if God foretells, then there is an higher power orchestrating a higher declaration. I will pull this string now and you will see what I mean.

Like you choose the kind of characters you wanted before existing. The same way I chose that I will be a peaceable boy.

Show me freewill in this!
Exodus 4:21
"when you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hands: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go"
Because of God's orchestration, Exodus5:2 happened
"And Pharaoh said, who is the LORD, that I should Obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go"
Again!
Exodus 7:3
" And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt"
Because of God's orchestration (not Pharaoh's free will!) , Exodus7:13 happened
"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said"
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
Then it was capped up with this statement that God himself said
Exodus 9:16
"And in very deed for this cause have I raised you (Pharaoh) us, for to shew in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."
Eewo! Did you hear that?! Did you hear what God just said?
He claimed he made Pharaoh, raised him up so that He (God) can show the whole of Israel, Egypt and the world that He is very powerful. He was using Pharaoh!
Where is the freewill?
The Lord took Jeremiah to a potter's shop and showed him a potter using the clay to mould whatever he wills.
And God said to him "Can I just like the potter not use you (the clay) to mould what I want?"
Where is the perfect free will of the clay?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I once engaged an atheist and he was all over the place telling me how everything is material and nothing so spiritual. He kept claiming "free as a bird", " freewill" and "free free".... Alright, Alright, Alright! I said. If you are 100% free, I will give you a list of commandments and if you can by your own free will observe them for 10 days, then there is no " spirituality " and you are 100% free.
He was someone I know well, so I knew his weaknessess and soft spots. He didn't last 3days before he broke most of the commandments. He tried again and failed. He tried again and failed. Where is the freewill?!
What happened to him is the same reality everyone under the domain of death face
Romans 7:15,18,24
15.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not: but what I hate to do (I.e don't want to do) , I do
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will(my will, my freewill!) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
That scripture is what made me realize that freewill is very much dependent on the domain you operate in. It is not totally free o! If you are in the domain of death, you will continue to lament that you want (by your free will) to stop masturbation but you keep going back doing what is against your will.
Also, if you are in the domain of LIFE, your freewill is a slave to the will of God. That life is not totally yours o! Infact, everything is meant to bring glory to God, even your death!
Hahahahahahaha, Hallelujah!
The death of many believers has been declared to bring Glory to God, praise God!
Jesus' death was forthtold not foretold! Any other way, salvation would have been a coincidence.

It's a no-brainer. There is no foretelling!

Forthtelling or foretelling, someone was doomed!
By forthtelling, the question will be "Why declare such for one of the apostles?"
By foretelling, "why did God not just decide not to create him?".... Even Christ attested that it would have been better if he was not created.

Let me drop more scriptures
Psalms 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me"
Psalms109:8
"Let his days be few; and his office, let another take"
Now many believed all this to be prophecies of Judas' betrayal.
To the Foretellers, how did a nonexisting Judas chose (of all things to be chosen) to betray Jesus? Why didn't God stop him?
To forthtelling, why declare such an office seeing that one is doomed to fall?
Well you see, it's a mystery yet to be solved (100% I mean). The Foretellers take the weight from God by saying, He only foretold, he didn't forthtell. We both know it's weak and it doesn't solve anything.
However, I won't be surprised to see Judas in heaven (infact, I'm expecting him!).

Come and see how almost heartless this sounded (I speak as a man).
John17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost...
Jesus then went on to say.....
" but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled! "
Did you hear that? Christ could have kept him! The word of God could have prevented it! Why didn't he?
Christ said he suffered (allowed) him to be lost that the scripture might be fulfilled! When scriptures are being fulfilled then it is an act of forthtelling.
1Peter3:18-19 could have happened to Judas and that would make everything perfect.

What did I tell you the prophets are foretelling? Is it not what God has forthtold?
If God is to foretell, then he would be foretelling what a higher declarer/forthteller has forthtold (God forbid!).

That was foretelling what God has forthtold. Peter's death was for the glory of God.

The denial of Peter was one of the greatest lesson to the saints. Again, it was declared.

Do you have Psalms137:8-9 in your bible? Check it out!
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
That was Israel doing what you are condemning Hazael for. Who shall be say is evil in this case, God or Israel?
You seem to mistake God's punishment for Evil.

No evil, just punishment! 1kings19:17.

Which God permitted this?
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
There is that loving, vanilla, pampering dimension of God.... That same entity can be scary when it comes to punishment and Judgement!

Don't force it sir!
The first King was Saul, how bad was he?
The second King was David, he was a very Good king (So did God's foretelling fail?)
The third King was Solomon, you know any other time Israel enjoyed economic peak as under the years of Solomon? (Did God's foretelling fail again?)
We had good guys like
1. Hezekiah
2. Josiah
3. Asa
And many more.... Are they bad kings?
There was no foretelling or forthtelling in the scripture you gave.

Let me try to simplify things for you here.
1. We both do not have problem with the fact that in some cases God does Forthtell the future.
2. Where we defer is in two major areas
a. You believe that God has no capability to Foreknow the future while I believe that God has the Capacity to Foreknow the future because time is subject to God just as space is subject to Him.
b. You seem to believe that man doesn't have a freewill while I believe that man has been given a Freewill to act within the limits of his environment.

Now, I will focus only with scriptures to show you that God Foreknows the future.

1. Daniel 2:28
However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.

2. Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!

3. Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nation.

God said He knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived. He didn't say "Before you were conceived, a made you..". I don't know what else this can mean other than Gods Foreknowledge.

4. Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?


5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .
Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)

Do you have an explanation against this!?

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”

As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.

If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?

8. Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified
Those God FOREKNEW were those He PREDESTINATED to conform to the image of Christ His son.

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?

10. John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .

Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!