₦airaland Forum

Thanks I greatly appreciate your contribution,I did my own personal research but couldn't come to a conclusion that's why I asked it on here

samuk:
You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no recorded of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes an historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

No problem I await your reply.

TAO11:
Good question! I will take my time before replying because I've got what I think is a very good reply which I can't afford to give hastily and superficially just for the sake of replying.

I need to pool and verify the relevant quotes and references in the midst of other engagements.

Please bear with me. Thanks!

From the perspective of "African people" one is about white people the other is about black people

Amujale:
Afrocentrism is a scholarly movement that seeks to conduct research and education on global history subjects, from the perspective of historical African peoples and polities. It takes a critical stance on Eurocentric assumptions and myths about world history, in order to pursue methodological studies of the latter.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism

Lol lens of eurocentrism says the afrocentrist

I am well versed on scholarly,reviewed,researched works on african history

Why is everything that doesn't support your "black hypothesis",eurocentrist

Lol yeah negroid or caucasoid isn't right let's group humans in melanated and passive melanated people,even athropologist don't use this,are you any better than the racists who did the "negro" "Caucasoid" Classification

I don't need to back up my claims with evidence must of the claims you made here aren't even peer reviewed or correct,as i have said I follow scholarly,proven and well researched claims

I am not new to this whether is eurocentric,afrocentric,creationist,white or black nationalist people tend to use history for their own bias and politics,the era of scientific racism has proven this

Amujale:
Everything truth to someone such as you is viewed through the lens of Eurocentrism.

I suggest you improve your scholarship and reeducate yourself with regards to African history.

What is this notion of Afrocentrism that you bandish about?

Just to be clear, eventhough you may prefer to me Afrocentric as a derogatory connotation, however you need to realise that the true meaning of Afrocentrism is the scholarship, whilst the scholars themselves are better known as Africanist.



Theres no such thing as a 'negroid'.

Where does the term 'Negroid' originate?

There is melanated people and passive melanated people.

Every living person on the planet possesses melanin, however some are active whilst others are passive.

You need to research well rather than follow the malicious narrative of the psedo-science that has been debunked since the late 1900's.

All my teachings are based on scholarship and not merely opinionated.

What is the meaning of the term 'Caucasoid'?

In order for one to ascertain the validity of something its important to perform a thorough perusal.

I dont claim anything that is not subjected to research.

Anything i say or wrtite up about can be researched, does us all a favour and research before you attempt anything.


Heres the deal.

Whatever i have written or shared with the thread that you may find difficult to agree with, research and provide evidence that you think contradicts and we can take it from there.

Where does the term 'Caucasoid' originate from?

Did I ever say humans didn't come from africa??

All humans in the world came from Africa and migrated out this is what I have been saying,if african are the only "true humans" where did Asians come from,europeans,again ancient humans aren't modern humans

Indus was just as the same time with mesopotamia,again africans refer to diverse people in africa

Amujale:
All the evidence suggest that all humans originate from Africa.

If you have any evidence that contradicts this, you can glady provide it here.

Such understanding resides in the 'Out of Africa' theory.

All human kind are traceable to Africa due to the fact that African people are proven to be the oldest people on planet Earth.

Homo sapiens are one of the earliest humans

"Eurocentric" how is it "eurocentric" Earliest humans were different from all humans,arechealogists have proven these,the ones found in ethiopia and morocco were not modern humans

Don't distort and support evidence for politics

Anyways just like creationists disagree with proof of close ancestry with other primates,and early eurocentrist disagreed with evidence that all human share the same ancestry including "metros" is the just the same say you choose to disprove and approve just to suit yours too

Again I work on revised,peer reviewed finding not eurocentric or afrocentric

Amujale:
Eventhough that isnt even true, assuming we are to go with the flow and work with such hypothesis, Homo Sapien Sapien is said to exist exclusively in Africa. Check?

Given the lack of conclusive evidence to support the Eurocentric commentary on African history, the safest way to conclude is that the early Africans was no different to the humans of today.

Perhaps, this is where we can allow for 'out of the box' thinking, such as the first Africans, the first humans was created by extra-terrestrials.

Ancient population of asia and europe all originated from africa according to "out of africa migration",they were not modern humans,all humans trace down to africa according to present evidence and are africans

All humans can trace their ancestry back to Africa where the ancestors of anatomically modern humans first diverged from primates

Oga what do you define as "black" how is that any different from "negroid

Caucasoid is acceptable but negroid isn't?? ��

I follow scholarly revised work am not going to disagree with it to follow race pseudoscience,early human were neither negroid,nor Caucasoid these are modern humans who share close genetic relationship and evolved differently in different parts of the world who migrated "from africa",that's why "africans are so genetically diverse" and holds distant dna

Afrocentrism is just like eurocentrism

Amujale:
The evidence suggest that the current stock of Arabs and Europeans are Caucosoids.

The ancient population of Asia and Europe all originated from Africa.

They was all 'melanated active', in other words, they was blacksic this has been proven without a shadow of a doubt.

But when psuedo-science said first humans were from africa it wasn't a lie lol ���,negroid is used just as Caucasoid,there is a movement in the scientific community to drop this terms as they are considered inaccurate yet eurocentrics and afrocentrics are still using for political agendas

Indus people was "black" again this has not been proven,genetic testing done in 2017 did not show such evidence,and you mean "black" you refer to the people with "sub-saharan ancestry or the negritos

Amujale:
The only African use for the term 'negroid' is so as to compile certain historical commentary.

We know that is meant to refer to 'melanated active' peoples; they used derogatory terminology so as to attempt to justify there psedu-science. One can overlook the crass terminology and gain the pieces of information.

Indus people was blacksic there is enough evidence to prove that.

Various ethnicities from Africa inhabitted and populated those regions, recent information pinpoints one of these people as the Twa.

"Know thyself" afrocentrism

I don't look at history or evidence looking to back claims,anything that doesn't support your views is eurocentric,again genetic and archealogical evidence has proven that the indigenous population are still there

Amujale:
I guess you ought to research the history of North Africa.

Who are the original 'horners'?

The demographic of that regions has changed hands more than 100 times in the last 2,100 years.

Furthermore, learn to make use of the term 'South of the Sahara', opposed to 'Sub Sahara'.

Know thyselves.

South of the Sahara ✅

Sub Sahara ✖

The communities 'South of the Sahara' arent sub to anyone or anything nevermind the 'Sahara'.

For further discussion, follow the link here:

https://www.nairaland.com/5795996/african-origin-civilisation

Afrocentrism is the same with eurocentrism,I deal with generally agreed evidence,not selectively looking for ones that supports my "theory"

Amujale:
Everything truth to someone such as you is viewed through the lens of Eurocentrism.

I suggest you improve your scholarship and reeducate yourself with regards to African history.

What is this notion of Afrocentrism that you bandish about?

Just to be clear, eventhough you may prefer to me Afrocentric as a derogatory connotation, however you need to realise that the true meaning of Afrocentrism is the scholarship, whilst the scholars themselves are better known as Africanist.

Theres no such thing as a 'negroid'.

Where does the term 'Negroid' originate?

There is melanated people and passive melanated people.

Every living person on the planet possesses melanin, however some are active whilst others are passive.

You need to research well rather than follow the malicious narrative of the psedo-science that has been debunked since the late 1900's.

All my teachings are based on scholarship and not merely opinionated.

What is the meaning of the term 'Caucasoid'?

In order for one to ascertain the validity of something its important to perform a thorough perusal.

I dont claim anything that is not subjected to research.

Anything i say or wrtite up about can be researched, does us all a favour and research before you attempt anything.


Heres the deal.

Whatever i have written or shared with the thread that you may find difficult to agree with, research and provide evidence that you think contradicts and we can take it from there.

Where does the term 'Caucasoid' originate from?

Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

TAO11:
Spam bot won't allow me type in the reference without getting banned. So, see it attached below.

Please what book is this??

TAO11:

Afrocentrist, all humans migrated from africa,please recheck your claims,earliest humans were proto-humans and again Caucasoid,mongoloid,negroid are not accurate terms the human race is more diverse than that,and "indus people" are not classified as negroid,and again there is no substantial evidence to prove it,only claims which are till date not credible enough to come to such conclusions,besides even ancient arabs are claimed to come from africa due to geography and cultural links and again there is nothing like "African" horners are also caucasoid too,but in future if more credible evidence come font then maybe we can agree on sub-saharan links of "indus people"

Amujale:
Archeology, anthropology, linguistics, personnel and symbolism.

There are no caucasoid civilisations in the Indus Valley.

The earliest civilisation in those regions migrated from Africa.

As a matter of fact, Africans are indigenous to all the continents; we have the map and we have traced their movement using archaeology, anthropology, symbolism and personnel comparitive studies.

The first caucasoid civilisation was crete.

The Arabs and the Europeans have the same beginnings.

The earliest traceable Arabian civilisation was in mesopotamia.

That are no Arabs in the Indo valley.

The Chinese and Japanese came from the Mongols.

Is buhari from horn of africa ��

Obalufon:
i know all these mr know it all ..white will do anything to distort history ,,Buhari is europoid lol ... and you also believe you are monkey you white master say so

Who are exremely white how many are they Oga I don't know why you are obsessed with their color genetics has shown that there hasn't been a genetic change in the magreb at large,you claims are just speculations to claim north africa bring credible evidence

Obalufon:
lol you are tough nail Mr man italian ,syrian jordan greece before Arabs ,,. the people there now are not all white the extremely white are the most mixed arabs

���� of course Kanem was located at the southern end of the trans-Saharan trade route between Tripoli and the region of Lake Chad lol no one is arguing with you,hope you saw the trans-saharan trade?

Obalufon:
doctored by usesless editor bornu empire reach libya

What it white that wrote the history i don't get ��������,so any history that doesn't favor you don't like ���,when Arabs wrote records of mansa musa it wasn't a lie,when they wrote records of Ghana it wasn't a lie ����,Arab writings of north africa shows they didn't meet black people there,am sorry I deal with credible evidence,I have research all these claims for years

Obalufon:
i know all these mr know it all ..white will do anything to distort history ,,Buhari is europoid lol ... and you also believe you are monkey you white master say so

Lol even many of the taureg they call are still light skinned though tend to be brown,i have met alot of them in Mali,genetics have already shown that majority of the arabization of the magbreb is cultural

S400:
, look for the last time , your touareg , blue man . live mostly in Niger (more than 2 millions ) 9% of its population , mali (550.000 ) 3% of its population , burkina .....

in maghreb they are very few around 2000 in tunisia 0.018% of the population , less in moroco , and around 70.000 in algeria 0.17% of the population , they live in the extrem south of algeria , nothing to do with berbers historic territory ,north african ancestrors , or aborigene .

so you have berbers 99,83% of the population for the case of algeria , that ramses and i , are talking about ! and the touaregs 0.17% of the population , from berbers migration to the south of sahara and mix with sub saharians population . south sahara was never part of algerian historic kingdoms , only with french colonization , the sahara was added to algerian territory , its common knowledge


check this interesting video of africcan kingdoms and evolution in the history it will help you to understand ,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzKejJIwieE

pic 1 ; touareg region
pic 2 : numidia and maghreb aborigene

Sorry i can't accept lies,I don't read books,i follow archealogical evidence,historical evidence,recent generic and population study,Horner are considered caucasians cause of their europoid dna,part sub-saharan part europoid,but are still black as night

Obalufon:
what is your problem man north africa is mixed accept it ..you believe you know it all.. stop reading books by whites scholar Aswan the blacks their have caucasian phenotype ..Bush man are consider caucasian now by your white master

What's the connection between indus valley and africa�,geography isn't a good excuse greece is connected to the near east by the mideterrean,horn of africa was once connected to south arabia due to low water levels same with north africa and iberia,so i don't see how that changes the position of indus valley from asia,indus has the earliest dating by archealogists in asia

The oldest evidence of civilisation is nok culture yes people were already here,but nok is the earliest archealogical evidence of an early civilisation,except you have other archealogical findings that i am not aware

And the oldest form of writing is in mesopotamia,others argue the Indus script of the Bronze Age Indus Valley civilization, the Rongorongo script of
Easter Island ,and the Vinča symbols they have not being translated and so no one is certain if they represent authentic writing,am not aware of any west African writing that predates that of Egypt or mesopotamia

Amujale:
Some of the dates arent accurate

You are correct that the oldest civilisation in Europe is Minoan.

However, the dates are as follows:
Minoans c.2700 toc.1450 BCE

location:aegean sea,crete

The oldest civilisation in Asia is the summer civilisation

(3300BC-1300BC)

The Indus valley is connected to Africa by the hip. Our scholarship suggest that there are two many connections for them to be down to coincidence.

Eventhough there's proof of earlier dates i will go with Profesdor S A Akintoye and Clyde Winters.


The Yoruba, Edo, Igbo, Urhobo, Nupe, Tiv, Igala, Idoma, and so on, from our archeological research and linguistic research, we believe that though all those peoples evolved along the banks of the Middle Niger up to the confluence with the Benue and that at some point in 5000-3000 BCE they began to spread out from there and gradually, the Yoruba, Edo, Nupe, Igbo, Igala, Idoma, Igbere evolved, and so on.

According to Dr Clyde Winters West Africa owns the oldest form of developed writting systems anywhere in the world.

I am refer to sub-saharan africa our genes are very distinct from the rest of the world,north africa are old people who migrated back here due to theory,they have been there for millions of years,and sub-saharan africa is very diverse,Yoruba and Igbo and the same even Hausa looks like Yoruba

Obalufon:
negroid batoid cranial index is different man.. ..

Yoruba have distinct look indeed �����,lol majority of berbers in sub-saharan africa still look light skinned lol I met a Tuareg girl in Mali not the poor ones roaming she was just as light skinned as the ones in Mauritania,again the black berbers you are claiming are a minority in the unarabized berber community,again 50% of morocco identity as Berbers that's why I always reference morocco,they didn't come under carthagian rule,rome,barely arab rules them so all these they all mixed claims would not suffice

Obalufon:
i am IFE man ..and i can bold pick out ife person from crowd we have distinct look ...i'm not olmec or berber .. pertaining to DNA i said atleast because the berber tribe of sahara roam around they never accepted islam. fully they practice their native religion...,,

This has been disproven hausa,fulani share more genetically with rest of sub-saharan africa than north Africans,horners are the ones with mix europoid and sub-saharan dna that's why they are called caucasoid despite their color,and again sub-saharan africa are gentically diverse from the rest of the world,look at the bush men of south africa,infact genetics has debunked majority of the claim either by eurocentrist and afrocentrist,genetics agreed that sub-saharan africa is very diverse,north africans have their own unique dna even though they are related to the Mediterranean/middle east(proof for early back to Africa migration that's how they know north africa isn't mixed as widely as they claim),settled that black people where in egypt (from sudan )but ancient egypt wasn't sub-saharan,like majority of the population show links to the Levant(and if you look at the geography history hard to argue),but sub-saharan Africa influence came from Sudan(nubia) and was in Iower egypt,even today in Aswan black people full there,again these are from genetic study,but as I said when you are arguing over someone's history to claim these will evade you,and please you can seek from Verible source to confirm and yes I know some other weird up claims eurocentrics and afrocentrics have brought up to counter again,credible evidence

Obalufon:
Berber are not Negroid laugh .. you like anything white that is the way our western education has programmed you to believe .. Genetical they are different from forest african with kinky hair ...your president is way different from ibo man genetically because his from normadic tribe his bone structure and cranial index is diffrent from typical ibo person... i know you are ibo

Ahh thank now compare that one to a black person from nigeria,reminds me of arabs in oman,funny how is okay for black people to come in different shades but anyone from north africans,to arabs to native-americans they will claim ����,and yes I can show a video of light skinned igbos comparing their skin color to toned people from europe,anyways no one questions their genetics do they

Obalufon:
Morrocco berber despite being mixed compare their skin tone with the blue eyes nephilim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V-y3OOulx8

Lol see i knew where you were going this mentality is why some african-american are claiming native american ancestry,again less than white=black,black people refer to people down the sahara from sudan this has always been the history from greece,to egypt to rome,arabs,till trans-atlantic slave trade and the birth of racism,then blacks started claiming different cultures as their even Olmecs they are claiming they are negros,you are here again forget recorded history,forget genetic evidence,nah i will claim it,lol they are still nubians there today who haven't mixed with Arabs,Somalian still claim arabs I don't see anyone claiming they are mixed,lol modern ethiopians were drawn as being darker too but here we are,again black,kush,aethiopia this was used to refer to people down the sahara,so was it till white racist and afrocentrist started organizing and classifying what I don't know (I guess all ethiopians where lightned too

Obalufon:
Berber are not Negroid laugh .. you like anything white that is the way our western education has programmed you to believe .. Genetical they are different from forest african with kinky hair ...your president is way different from ibo man genetically because his from normadic tribe his bone structure and cranial index is diffrent from typical ibo person... i know you are ibo

You are the one arguing,light skinned,brown skinned bro i do genetics,those dark skinned Berber who are very very minor are from sub-saharan africa,igbos and benins have more lighter skinned people than Yoruba tribes doesn't change genetically they are the same,berbers have are the same people there gush,I don't what is the point of arguing,no one will tell you that Berbers or arabs are white,they even call themselves brown,you are the one coming with the color to claim they were once black then whitened again go and read up greek records,roman records their painting,and also ancient berber arts and also please read up arabic records,these are more than enough,again berber didn't mix with foreigners that much that's why morocco is still 50% who still identify as Berber they were poor at assimilating,south africa was full with different tribes white people didn't whiten them,is a whole region with different kingdoms that got whitenned bro,you can't know someone history more than them,white people didn't write north Africans history,yet you have so much knowledge on their past and how they should look lol ����again genetics please update yourself majority of north African are still north Africans,again smalll Sudan was first arabized before the full magbreb they didn't whiten but some how some how see you guys need to accept credible history that doesn't seat with your agenda,and I never claimed berbers for their color all i know is they are not sub-saharan looking the sub-saharan berber are the ones from sub-saharan who joined their community,north africa has different shades some brown some light is not due to mixing is the way they are,same way igbos and some south africans are very light/brown skin yet have full sub-saharan dna quote author=Obalufon post=89032925] Hey you listen to fair skinned berber claiming my point here they are mixed Social media display Berber today are fairer than southern italy ...lol you need visit the region berber comes in different hue morrocan Berber are more tanned with broaden nostril than the algerian and tunisian berbers Tuareg carried atleast 75 of Berber ancient DNA[/quote]

Keep deceiving yourself a whole populated region,married foreigners and lost their looks,you guys will say anything to claim other people's history,dude was even showing me tuaregs in niger�������

Obalufon:
Race that intermarried outside their own are bound for distruction .. .

Lol did I see Niger state Berber is Niger north africa���� Again don't be dumb,go to north africa and see the people there lol Berbers are not indigenous to sub-saharan africa ����� if you like claim the ones in niger or mali,again this is already proven history md i am just wasting your time,lol he even used ajazeera,arab news go and tell them those black Berbers from sub-saharan africa are the real ones and see how stupid you will sound. ������

Obalufon:
you are a monkey just as you white teacher called you .. i'm not berber but it would be nice to hear from the horse's mouth itself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWOCywRDBvc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snoekxHzuLo

Oga anthropology,archealogy,genetics,population study,even greek and roman arts which is more than available shows that modern north africans are still there,again go to the barber poor villages of morocco and Algeria they were mostly independent and never fully under arab rule,this is wide knowledge,you cannot be in Nigeria and telling me about north africa without supported credible evidence,aside claims made by afrocentrist,again credible evidence,and that's not how it works benin is over 1 million,1 million people won't just marry foreigners,again "population and dna history" exists for a reason

Obalufon:
Rest to your imagination. I'm not a berber .. We need anthropologist, have you seen cave painting of north Africa and ancient bone excavated the cranial structure of skulls dug up tells alot ... Soon edo will have high percentage of mulattos breeding among themselves and white in the next 200years or less they will call the unmixed blacks with thick lips and flaring nose slaves

Jesus what are you saying���,berbers didn't mix with anyone,only tunisian Berbers rolled with carthagians and yet they were secluded,read up numidian kingdoms,they were kingdom you don't mix up,if not africa would have gone during colonization ������,"dark skinned Berbers" came from sub-saharan,same way the light skinned berbers in mali came from north africa,again read the trans-saharan trade,they are not dark skinned ������������,In morocco they are still Berber villages that have not been arabize they still look the same,there was never a genocide,rape to mix a population to loose their looks,it has never happened before in human history is only when blacks want to claim north africa/middle east that we here a full settled population mixed away their looks,I know "black egypt" is what started this,to support "black Egyptian" hypothesis afrocentrist claim that north africans were also black but "whitened" you are shooting your self on the foot,there are no indeginous black people in italy.

Obalufon:
Berbers weren't light skin they end up being light skin through intermarriage with Arabs and Mideast, Jordan .Syrian even Greece and Italian , iberia there are still dark skinned Berbers in northern Africa .what we have now are mixed Berber MR man..Okay berber are not bantu or negroid in exact world of your white master but they are black skinned . ..They started black Mr Egyptian. even southern Italian are Dark skinned italian need not be dark skinned if northern Africa were milk skinned ..Berber means barbarian bush people