Thanks for the insults,it seems you are such a great product of nigerian education.
Ghostwon5: Oh, so you are not aware tao11 is a tribal bigot, a Yoruba ethnocentric person who spends all his life on nairaland and almost all his comments talking about Benin Kingdom.
So it is by asking questions to random faceless people on line with their agendas that you intend to learn ? Wtf ?
Is it Nigerian educational system which produced you ?
Tao11 knows nothing about the topic in question and only cares about defending yoruba Dogma with the help of Google and any sort of internet trash which tows the Yoruba line.
We have middle east in west asia,till today is still used as a geographical term,in politics we have middle east/north africa again these are modern geographical terms
And we have asia-minor,ohh yes who are they minor too
See again why I claim you are being sentimental
Amujale: As i said earlier, its either West Asia or North Africa.
There's no such geographical region known as Middle East.
This is not correct,"caucasians" don't come from the Caucasus mountain this was first used in 1780's This view was based upon the Caucasus being the location for the purported landing point of Noah's Ark – from whom the Bible states that humanity is descended – and the location for the suffering of Prometheus, who in Hesiod's myth had crafted humankind from clay
In addition, the most beautiful humans were reputed to be the stereotypical "Circassian beauties" and the Georgian people; both Georgia and Circassia are in the Caucasus region. The "Circassian beauty" stereotype had its roots in the Middle Ages, whilst the reputation for the attractiveness of the Georgian people was developed by early modern travellers,there is not credible proof that Caucasoid are from there,and you forget horners are classified as Caucasoid,negroid was used to classify dark skinned people of africa these are both incorrect terms,
And for the umptemth time you are attributing sentiments,you can't discard one and use the other,and you can't use africa cause africa is diverse(you seem to always forget this),black/white,black is color not all black people are negroid/south-saharan,and not all caucasoid identify as white,is kushite are wide used term
Negroid refers to racial classification,we have countries that uses this word,and black was also used offensively,it seems you are choosing to sentimental
Amujale: For the umteenth time, Caucasoid is correct because the current stock of Arabs an Europeans came from the Caucasus mountains.
Negroid is wrong and invalid because there is no where in history that the term wasnt used in a derrogatory manner.
Instead of Negroid, replace with some other acceptable term. i.e African, Black, Kush, Nubian e.t.c
and there is no such thing as african as they are very diverse is like saying asian or chinese people to refer to all mongoloid people,I never said race classification was right,yes one race which are very diverse,and foreigners used negroid for racial classification,you seem okay with Caucasoid but negroid is wrong again as I said I don't do sentiments if i was,i will refuse the term "africa" and "black"
Theres only one race of significance, they call it the Human Race.
Even if we was to go along with the so-called classification, the term 'Negroid' is:
Invalid. Null and Void. Squashed Quashed
Rather than using such a term, you would be better using African, Kush, Ethiopian, Nubian e.t.c these are all the terminologies that foreigners used to refer to blacksic.
Sub is not subordinate,is like saying middle east is middle of the desert or east,again sub mean down/south of the sahara,part of the sahara makes up north africa,if you want to use south no problem,but I am not a sentimental person who goes around getting offensive over everything from the past,africa was onced used to refer to parts of north africa,is it also derogatory too,and you have not proven to me why a geographical term should turn political
Amujale: I dont need to check the history of anything.
Ok you sound as though you are justifying the use of the term when i just showed you that its wrong.
The devil is in the detail.
What is the meaning of 'sub -'
Do you believe that the communities living 'South of the Sahara' are subordinate to the 'horners'?
The word negro was used by spanish and Portuguese explorers when they came to southern africa to refer to the natives,it was during the transatlantic slave trade it became derogatory, in spanish speaking countries the word is still used,you are confusing using America terms which is wrong,phillipines the word negro is used for "dark colored people" and negritos is for dark colored natives,a country "montenegro" has black in it,the word negro has different uses,and again your point still doesn't stand the word "black" was also used offensively should we also stop using the word "black"
And again I repeat I am using negro in the terms of racial classification regardless of it's history this is 2020,not every black person is negroid,not every african is black
Amujale: Wrong, the term was originally a derrogatory term from the off.
How old is the Spanish language?
The term that was originally used was ater, furvus, pullejaceus, pulleiaceus, carbo e.t.c
The noun was always CARBO
This particulare term nigrans became negreos and was juxtaposed by the Spanairds during the era of the Conquistadors and it continued to be used in a derrogatory throught the 2000 year slave trades, Colonisation, Jim Crow and today.
There was never a time in history that the term Negro meant anything positive.
Thanks for your contribution,tao11 gave good points and i am also personally doing my own research
Am still wondering why the skill of such artwork went away but this isn't new In fact the whole racial debate on egypt is based on the fact that modern egyptians lack cultural links to ancient Egyptians so I think you also make a good point too.
samuk: 1. By the time Ife Bronzes were discovered, there were nothing written before then to say Ife ever engaged in Bronze casting. In fact it was a complete shock to those that discovered them.
2. Academic machinery was put in place to study them and claim them for Ife.
3. There is no evidence to support the claims that those artworks were made in Ife, that's why they were first ascribed to being brought to Ife from Egypt, Mecca or Iran. All these would have been unnecessary if Ife had even had an Oral history that said they once produced Bronzes. There were no oral history that was discounted by white racist or the Yoruba themselves that ascribed the origin of the Bronzes to the Middle east.
4. All the references that were supplied by TAO11 were all written after the Bronzes have be discovered to feel in the gabs in history. A bit like working backwards from the answer to the question. I suggest that all the so called scholarly works supplied by TAO11 are after thoughts by those Yoruba baised writers.
5. Some of Ife Bronze are said to have been dated to as far back as 13th century, if these artworks were made in Ife, how come there was nothing recorded in Yoruba history for almost 600 years before they were discovered by accident.
When you examine the references provided as scholarly work to answer a question, always be sceptical. TAO11 evidence were all written in the 1900s to describe artworks of 500 to 600 years old.
Whilst the best of science can tell you the technique that was used to produce those artworks, they can't be certain if they were made in Ife and if indeed they were made by Ife people.
If Ife had such artistic knowledge, I don't see why it wouldn't have existed till today, there was no earthquake and major pestilence recorded in history of Ife that wiped out the artists. Even war can't wipe out such knowledge and skill from society otherwise Benin would have seized from producing artworks after the British expedition of 1897 that completely burnt down the city.
If Benin could maintain her various artistic skills till today, I don't see why Ife artistic skills and knowledge should have gone into extinction considering the relationship between Benin and Ife according to Yoruba history.
There are no evidence to support those artworks being made by Ife people in Ife.
I think i have made it clear here that I don't do ethnic bigotry,honestly i don't even get the whole point of these useless debates,just imagine china,japan,korea arguing and debating on who influenced who,who the whiteman said was the greatest blah blah
I have no hate for anyone is all love over here
TAO11: RamessesIV come and see one of those of your own whom I was talking about some days ago.
For him and others like him, you are not truly an Edo person if you are not a tribal bigot.
You are not truly an Edo person if you do not habour hatred for the Yoruba person.
That was precisely what gregyboy was calling your attention to in the link below when he insisted that you aren't truly Esan.
He couldn't fathom the fact that you are an Edo person, and yet you do not hate the Yoruba person --- He struggled with the fact that you followed a Yoruba person (thet is, me) on Nairaland.
For them, you must live and breathe hatred to qualify as a bonifide Edo.
Derogatory the whole point of racial classification was,but it isn't the same today,if you're going to throw away the term then you have to throw away "Caucasoid" again negro was the word for black it became derogatory cause of the mentality at that time,there was a time jew was seen derogatory should jewish throw away the name cause of history
Amujale: I get your point, eventhough i maintain the view that due to the history of that term, it remain toxic.
For clarification, there was never a time that the term wasnt used as a derrogatory term, and that includes whilst in its maiden language of Spanish.
Perform a thorough perusal and you will realise that the term was created in the 1500's during the era of the conquistadors.
Again this has been debunked,there is also an exact copy using india instead of africa,thomas macaulay didn't give this speech and he wasn't a british officer in africa but india.
Amujale: Did you read the statement i posted earlier?
Here, now take the time to read it properly.
Did Thomas Macaulay incorrectly refer to Africa as a country a couple of times in his 1835 address?
Please go and check the history of the word "sub-saharan" again stop being sentimental south of the sahara isn't even geographically correct,just use black Africa if you don't find "sub-saharan comfortable,just imagine someone comes and say is not middle east cause "middle" and they aren't middle of anyone,hope you see how you're adding sentiments
sub- /sʌb,səb/ prefix prefix: sub- 1. at, to, or from a lower level or position. "subalpine" lower in rank. "subaltern" of a smaller size; of a subordinate nature. "subculture" 2. somewhat; nearly; more or less. "subantarctic" 3. denoting subsequent or secondary action of the same kind. "sublet" 4. denoting support. "subvention" 5. CHEMISTRY in names of compounds containing a relatively small proportion of a component. "suboxide"
Thanks i truly appreciate your answer,and how well organized and researched it is,I will take my time to go over it again since am doing a little research of mine
it was on twitter oh on a "Yoruba history" page if I have time I go back to the tweet and provide screenshots so you can see how common this belief is i even forgot one said Iran,one brought egypt arts and was comparing the similarities,i didn't want to sound bias(cause I am very skeptical) that's why I asked you a Yoruba to give your insights,thing is many people claim historian or seem to know history these days,anyways I appreciate the time and effort you put into replying my questions.
TAO11: (2) I am not sure what kind of historian in this age and time would hold such view as to the effect that the origin of the Ife artworks was rooted in some foreign land.
However, one can be sure --- given the above expositions --- that if such person truly made such statement (in our present time), then they can't possibly be a historian in any way, shape, or form.
Can you direct me to the relevant statements of this so-called historian? Thanks!
In fact, some of the alleged basis for their conclusion (i.e. architecture and iron working) are some of the wrongest examples to choose from.
For example, the Ita Ogun Esa "sun dial" menhir in Ife (see: S.P. Blier, Cosmic References in Ancient Ife, 2012, p.4.), and the Oranmiyan obelisk in Ife, among others, are some unique examples (if not the only examples) of such ancient surviving stone architectural feats in the whole of black Africa (with the exception of Ethiopia and Sudan).
Moreover, the Yorubas are one of the earliest groups in West Africa to have acquired the knowledge of iron mining and smelting. Archaeological evidence of early iron smelting has been found in different parts of Yorubaland.
For example, remains of iron production furnaces, kilns, and heaps of iron slag have been found in Ife-Ijumu and dated c.160 C.E. Another site has been found in an abandoned town near Moniya in Ibadan. Other sites include the ones in Isundurin, in Ilorin, Ife, and Idofin.
See: Bassey W. Andah: "Iron Age Beginnings in West Africa: Reflections and Suggestions," West African Journal of Archaeology, 9, 1979, 135-50.
(3) I do not see how a beginner in art history (let alone an art historian) could conceivably hypothesize Benin Kingdom as the origin of the Ife artworks.
First of all, the Ife artworks as has been demonstrated already are an indigenous Yoruba tradition and are thus not possibly Bini in origin.
Secondly, and contrary to this claim of Benin origin; the Binis local tradition insists that Ife is the source of its art and technique of casting metal artifacts.
Incidentally, this Benin tradition too confirms the earlier argument that the casting tradition of Ife was an indigenous one.
Moreover, J. A. Danford (1949) records this Benin tradition. He writes:
"According to tradition, Igueigha was the first brass smith to be sent from Ife. He was in consequence deified and is worshipped by the brass-smiths to this day."
Reference: J.A. Danford, "Art in Nigeria", African Affairs, Vol. 48, No. 190, Oxford University Press on behalf of The Royal African Society, (Jan., 1949), pp.44.
Thirdly and most importantly, scientific dating techniques situate the beginning of the art tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings.
For example, Robin Horton cites a contrast of the range of these dates in his "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:
"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"
Reference: Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.
In the light of these dating results, it seems, after all, that the Benin art traditions which claims Ife as the source of its technique has not lied.
Thanks for your contributions,I have in no way dragged edo history in the mud,am new on this site and @tao11 was the first I thought to ask the question,I didn't know there was a "chatroom" for private conversations,sorry if my question sounded offensive but know that I do not engage in tribal debates so learn to express yourself without insults
Ghostwon5: If you want to fvck tao11 then go into a chatroom with him/her. Stop your ass kissing. And don't drag Edo history through the mud just because you want to get laid by some yoruba fat smelly pig who spends all his/her time on nairaland discussing Benin.
According to these Yoruba the Edo are nothing but an insignificant minority, yet all the Yoruba do is talk about us and try to attach us to them by every means possible.
Stop confusing the trash which you read online with reality. And stop thinking with your hormones. You very easily confuse ethnocentric Yoruba myths about Benin's past with actual Benin myths and of course you don't seem to see the difference between myth and history, like many Nigerians though.
No one calls Africa a country,educated people know Africa is a continent,people all over the world call every asian person "chinese",see why I said you are being sentimental
Amujale: Africa is a huge continent that comprises of over fifty countries.
The Arabian and Eurocentric warmongers refered to it as a country, they still does today.
Pictures isn't evidence,that picture shows one of the waves for "out of africa" migration,and stop being sentimental,sub-means beyond the sahara part of the sahara is grouped with north africa
Amujale: I have already shown you pictoral proof, theres more deeper proof but i intentionally havent shared due to the fact that it touches ancient Indo spirituality that are privy to the scholars.
Kindly choose to use 'South of the Sahara', opposed to 'sub-sahara'.
We are not 'sub'to anyone or anything, nevermind the Sahara.
If you are a african historian you will know that Africa is very diverse,Africa was first used to refer to north africa,is like saying don't classify easy asians as mongoloid call them Asian even though Asian is very diverse
I hope you get my point
Amujale: Negroid is not a valid classification, its a derrogatory terminology.
Assuming anyone is supposed to be doing the classification, it has to be the African.
And as an African historian, i say Negroid isnt a valid classification.
It is not about embrace,it was negro before it became derogatory even black is derogatory,I am using it for racial classification (which isn't accurate),white race black race both were created the same time for the same purpose,even negroid is still use till today
See what I mean check the original document it isnt real,it was produced for the internet,there is an exact copy saying same for india not africa,this is why I say I am very skeptic
Amujale: Our evidence is based on analytic, scientific and pictoral proof.
I am talking about negroid in terms of classifications,you can't use caucasoid and not use negroid,black,white these where classification done for white supremacy to justify slavery I am well aware of these,and negro is the spanish word for "black",again I am referring to concept of racial classification(which are not even accurate) not politics
Doesn't change you can lie about history,again white nationalism,scientific racism etc it is not a new thing hence my skepticism,once history starts spending half of it's time claiming borders,people,without credible evidence is already clear what it is for
Amujale: Here is where you have been sleeping on African history.
African history has een determined over thousands of years already now.
Following all the evidence, our historians job is to merely debunk all the pseudo-science and false assertions thats out there.
Noone can tell teach the African about our own history.
Negroid came from the era of scientific racism used to classify dark skinned people from sub-saharan africa,negro was used even before it became derogatory,if you must do away with negroid you must same with caucasoid,and these terms mostly rely more on physical triats not genetics
Amujale: You need to know the root word as well asthe history of these terms on order to get my point.
Lol is not all religion i tell you,people who go around parroting afrocentric history of egypt also claimed this too,I just wanted to clarify Cause it was a serious debate,and since I tend not to do history with political undertones i thought I should come here for better clarification,one even brought claim that it wasn't mecca per say but Iran
OgboAto: You're still speaking of hamitic hypothesis but the version hinged on religion.
The Muslims didn't want the origins of their ancestors to be in Europe [believed to be place of Christians] and as such, they began the Mecca tradition. If you conduct an observation you'll see this theory holds ground in Oyo areas where Islam is quite dominant.
In reaction, Christians didn't want to have roots in Mecca/Islam, as such they began the theory Egypt & Sudan. If you check the proponents of this theory, they have been Christians with some being scholars in Christian theology.
It was simply an after-effect of foreign religions brainwash with locals attempting to append their origins to their religions for several purposes including inclusion in the religious community and pursuitof the God-chosen race status.
Exactly this is the problem i have with african history,is either one is full of myths,another about prejudice,the other was done by white racist,the new ones about making different claims about other people's history
So i think to be highly skeptical of what African say about history cause these days is about more bragging than knowing their ancestors,some are looking for ancestors they never had,i just hope with time well research works of history devoid of bias and politics takes the center stage when we talk of history.
samuk: I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.
Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.
Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.
So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.
Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the writer.
Yes early white historians were racist,but as you said need not in effort of fighting prejudice and misconceptions,make unwarrented claims
History should be about independent truth and not politics
And mind most of my claims wasn't in reference to white historians but modern yoruba people,some brought forth strong arguments that ife bronze shows yoruba linkage with the middle east another argued it was egypt as ancient ife came from there
samuk: The reason for what you described above was possible was the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.
If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.
There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.
Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.
The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.
of course they use white actors cause white people do the movies,anyways I don't have the time for afrocentric/eurocentric debate about egypt and other people's history as it wasn't the point of my post.
Am well aware of the eurocentric and "hamitic hyothesis" by early Early white historians,what I am referring to is claims made by nigerians and even afrocentrist themself,some claim it was knowledge from mecca,some claim it was knowledge from connection with egypt so as you can see this isn't a case of white-washed but claims made by indeginous yoruba people.
OgboAto: This is Leo Frobenius' thesis. At the time Europe was awash with sentiments of the inferiority of the black man, he attempted to disprove his people but upon getting to Ife and seeing well crafted arts superseding anything that Europe has ever made [except the Greeks], he quickly attempted to appropriate the works for his people by claiming they were made by Etruscan [an ancient people indigenous to a part of modern day Italy but were annihilated by the Romans] and the mythical Atlantis people of ancient Greece. Overall, this theory has been shattered, battered, brutalized & brought to its knees when equipment/tools used to make many of these art works were excavated in Ile-Ife between 1950s to 1980s.
P.S: This is the same way the wonders of Egypt has been white-washed. They've claimed & continued to push the narratives that Old Egypt wasn't primarily peopled by blacks but rather, the Kingdom had a population of varying races, including whites LOL! This has played out in how Hollywood rendered many Egypt-esque movies meant to push the narratives [and also to entertain]. However, the Egyptians left wall murals depicting they were mostly black skinned thankfully.
Culture › Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by RamessesIV(m): 4:21pm On May 03, 2020
