₦airaland Forum

We were talking about South Africa. I don't recall advising Kenya to nationalize debt or print money . I have always advised Kenya to continue with refinancing it's debt - until it get back to good solvency ratios - and then restart leveraging.

My advice for Ghana - find a way to get people to trust the CEDIS - otherwise you're like Zambia -DOOMED.

Just30:
Go back to school kid


Kenya is not New Zealand, that country has a way better economy.

You should learn the ills of helicopter money.

So basically all the market liberalized economy is nonsense and we should go for monopolies - and create mini-Nigeria of 1 billionaire selling salt and 150m poor people. You still have communist hangovers.

Countries protect infant industries - but for a short period of time - and with serious targets - and without corruption. The idea is once they mature - you OPEN the market for international competition.

Nigeria is the opposite - you start with a monopoly and forever keep the monopoly by banning imports.

For every monopoly - the biggest sufferer is the CONSUMER - which is why the market economy always wins - because the customer wins with competition - price, quality, name it.

Just30:
Im not even referring to Asia alone

From the America's to Europe

pick any country any you will find monopolies.

You can imagine. Salt in kenya is like so fu.,cking worthless. Sugar in international market is one useless commodities. Just like cement. You don't hear Brazillian Billionaires selling Sugar.

So this basically a con-game or corruption by Dangote - where every Nigerian is making him rich by buying sugar, salt and maize flour expensively

Billionaire selling salt, sugar, flour, and cement

kikuyu2:
SALT!? Ohhh, Naij, what the actual fcvk!?

Don't jump into the conversation you barely understand and parrot the usual polemics.

Obaboon, spawned this child thread, by claiming South Africa were in debt distress. I simply told him South Africa debt is mostly domestic and they can nationalize it by printing rand - and continue as nothing happens. Nigeria and Kenya do not enjoy that much luxury.

And then you jumped in with your half-pence arguments that money cannot be printed in 2020.

Please this conversation is way beyond your paygrade. Get back into twitter and engage in the hashtags wars.

BeforeJuly:
but you were the one advocating this as a way out of debt. just PRINT MONEY you said. PRINT ALL THE FÜCKIN NOTES!

there was no clause to your ' surefire debt solution '.

Obaboon, I see you've lost any semblance of maturity and you're now inviting me to you schoolyard prank. Sorry, I am too old for that. My daughter who is 10 is also declining the offer - and so is my younger son. I think you need to get fellow Nigerians into the pigsty and make a nice mess of it.

obaaderemi:
His brothers will soon come and carry his punch drunk body away from here as usual.

It's none of our problems - because if you bring your poverty-stricken a.sre to Nairobi - we will ship it back to Nigeria - like we have done. We use to spend nearly 10m dollars annually to fly them back - now we send them first to prison. Maybe South Africa and others who have welcomed your social menace should worry.

obaaderemi:
How is that your problem. You should worry about the Indians owning your country while the rest of you watch from the garbage heaps of the slums.

You're like a jello that can't be pinned. So now you're also ready to mint your way out of debt. You are choking in external debt at time your revenues have halved or worse probably disappeared.

obaaderemi:
Most of Nigeria's debt is also domestic. Oya!

South Africa for all-purpose and intent is not your typical African economy. It's has a very well developed capital and debt market. Which is why most of it's debt is domestic.

Are you Nigerians daft by nature? or by choice.

If South Africa debt is mostly domestic - it can nationalize it - by simplifying printing rand - and getting out of it.

BeforeJuly:
but bro where Tf did you see an African economy mentioned?

does Africa have an economy as flexible as developed ones?

you're losing bro.

Out of 200m nigerians - how many are under his payroll? You have allowed somebody to mint money selling SALT, SUGAR, CEMENT AND MAIZE FLOUR - and as we speak 10 nigerians are entering poverty every minute - and figure for extreme poverty is 100M - and for just normal poverty 150m!!

I mean by the time you're overtaking India to become the world poverty capital - something is clearly very wrong.

obaaderemi:
Dangote did not disable anybody. He is a big employer of labour and a big producer of locally made products. Is he a capitalist? Yes. He maximizes profit and this makes him look like the bad guy.
But he is far better than your Indians who import all kinds of junks into Kenya and give you trade deficits.

I think you've earned the world corruption tag - just like you were recently crowned the poverty capital. We are no competition. These are well-deserved honors and we salute you.

obaaderemi:
Yours is not perverse when you steal foreign aid meant for your starving people?

So the story has changed to it can be done if inflation is 1.2%? It very funny when an obtuse Obabaon refer to his teacher in less than flattering terms. Where is your manners?

QE is a tool that exists in the toolbox of South Africans to deal with domestic debt. I really doubt RSA have inflation of 6% - that would kenya.

obaaderemi:
Inflation rate in new Zealand is 1.2%. South Africa's is 6%. Are you this daft?!!!!!!!
New Zealand can afford to do that. It will boost their economy. On the other hand, same medicine would make South Africa sicker. You are so daft.

Until we see Ghana Airways flying - shut up. Every country has an airport and foreign airlines. Few countries can hack what Kenya has done. Our Airline has never gone down...since inception. A rarity in the most brutal of business. We cannot allow it to go down because we have built an industry around it and well - We are THE PRIDE OF AFRICA.

vaxx:
Ghana as at today without an airline is doing progressively well, eliminating unemployment, allowing more international airline and local individual airline in her space, building more domestic and international airport to consolidate the existing ones.

When Ghana started the airline business, Kenya was still a British stooge . And I am telling you when her airline bounce back, your airline will have been forgotten and flush to the toilet where it belongs

Yes, I cannot deny that as much as we have a serious corruption problem in kenya, it's very tame compared to Nigeria -whose corruption is perverse in every meaning of the word.

obaaderemi:
Ask rvp. He can't deny it.

Yet another ignorant Nigeria,

Quick Google Search - Just this week New Zeland as we speak is printing money to pay off debt. Countries nationalize their debt if it's domestic. That one way to ensure the economy doesn't sink

ANZ expects the Reserve Bank will increase the cap on quantitative easing to $90 billion in August, by earmarking up to another $30b for bond purchases.

The Reserve Bank increased the size of its quantitative easing (QE) programme from $33b to $60b last week in an effort to sooth financial markets.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121546567/anz-tips-reserve-bank-to-lift-cap-on-quantitative-easing-to-90-billion

BeforeJuly:
Bro I'm laughing hard at that man's analysis.
Print money in 2020.
We see new things on nairaland everyday!

And he has basically disabled 200M Nigerians. If you think one person can do what 200m Nigerian could do - then you're a moro.n. Countries that prosper empower their citizens. They don't work to create a monopoly where someone is selling sugar, salt, and cement very expensively.

It the reason why Nigeria is poor despite all the oil and the population.

obaaderemi:
Dangote is Nigerian and doing a lot for the economy. He is not like the Indians ruling Kenya's economy.

Where is Ghana Airline? South Africa Airways and Ethiopia Airlines were the only ones who could light a candle to us. Now South Africa is down out.

KQ is still flying and we are working on making it stronger by doing what Ethiopians and Arab Airlines are doing - we are going to heavily capitalize the Airline by giving it the Airports and many assets.

vaxx:
Will Kenya's on this forum shut up their crap?

Every thing about your country is dysfunctional even your jubilee house( the ruling party ) seems not to be doing fine at the moment .


As at today , your airways industry has join the loss venture ...why don't you form a confederation with Rwanda since that look like the only progressive country in east Africa.

Don't confuse what Asian tigers did to protect infant industries with corrupt-Nigeria closed economy to benefit a few barons.

If Nigeria was succeeding - they won't have overtaken India in poverty - at the time they are pumping more oil that ever before.

If you look at almost every indicator - Nigeria is sinking deeper into poverty and financial crisis.

Dangote can buy the country now.

Just30:
If you want your country to succeed in specific sectors important to your economy,

You will be learning how to create monopolies .

Even with budget deficit of 50%; you still insist on heckling? Nigeria's corruption is world-class - we are babies. You've stashed how much money in foreign banks? Your political class are not only stealing budget - but also stealing oil revenues.

obaaderemi:
Your budget is lower than Nigeria's budget. Meanwhile a third of your budget gets routinely stolen yearly. You are far from wise.

And here is how Dangote got rich by making Nigerians poorer...and you're very proud of him.One billionaired.140 million poor people with 100M extremely poor

9 A leaked US Embassy cable on Dangote dated March 7, 2007 reported that “Dangote is counted
among President Obasanjo’s inner circle of business advisers” and that it “is no
coincidence that many products on Nigeria’s import ban list are items in which Dangote
has major interests.” The cable further stated that Dangote “has had success blocking
trade and investment that might compete with his enterprises.”50 As would be seen in the next section, Obasanjo also aided the Dangote Group by closing down the cement
factory of one of his competitors: Ibeto Cement.
Another controversial waiver granted by the Obasanjo administration was the $3 billion
import duty waiver to Western Metal Products Company Limited (WEMPCO) Nigeria
Limited, a Chinese company for the establishment of a $250 million cold rolled steel
plant in the country. The Federal Ministry of Finance have tried to address part of the
outrage that this transaction caused by clarifying that “the duty concessions and
incentives should comprise five percent duty rate across the board on all raw materials
for two years, zero percent duty rate and VAT exemptions on all plants and machinery.”
Despite this, it remains unclear where the $3 billion dollars came from. This raises
questions about possible abuse of such a waiver through the importation of unrelated
items under the cover of such waivers.51 It is important to note that this waiver, which
has been described as a “non transparent business transaction”, was granted in an
industry where Nigerian enterprises are active.5

And here is how Obasanjo created Dangote

A major beneficiary of the Obasanjo tax and duty waiver illegalities is the billionaire
businessman, Aliko Dangote and his Dangote Group of Companies. A Dangote
company report published in 2006 showed that at that time, the company controlled 81
percent of the Nigerian sugar market, 40 percent of the cement market, 33 percent of the
flour market, 54 percent of the pasta market and 72 percent of the salt market. “The
latest figure indicates that the Dangote Group still maintains the first position in each of
these commodities; now controlling about 93 per cent of the sugar market, 86 per cent
of cement, 73 per cent of flour, 74 per cent of pasta and 89 per cent of salt.”44 It was
therefore not surprising that in 2011, Dangote was listed as the richest man in Africa by
Forbes magazine. 45 The entwinement of political patronage and import duty waivers in
Nigeria is perhaps best brought out by this case. During the two presidential elections
that Obasanjo contested (1999 and 2003), Dangote donated N100 million and N250
million respectively to his campaign. Aside from the above, he also donated N211.6
million towards the construction of Obasanjo’s Presidential Library and cement worth
N3 billion towards the construction of the head office of the Obasanjo’s ruling Peoples
Democratic Party (PDP) all during Obasanjo’s tenure as President.46 Based on the
above, it was therefore not surprising that some of the companies in the Dangote Group
.

You're as always very obtuse. Nigeria has 30-50 basic items including sugar that are banned from being imported. We know Nigeria is not self-sufficent in sugar. So basically Abuja bans something - and they issue import waivers to their financiers or friends. And those people get captive market of 200m to sell basic commodities like Sugar at any price.

samorobo:
I am not about to join you in your daily emotional cries driven by absolute bitterness and envy..that useless product(sugar and cement) is what made Dangote what he is today...and NO there is no sugar monopoly in Nigeria....I am right here waiting for that product Kenya has produced and patented..don't even mention safaricom..
Now the bottom line is this ..why has your supposedly$100bn economy (which according is close to ours ) not produce quarter the size of our billionaires which are soaring in various sectors from telecommunications to industry,you name it? WHY!WHY!! WHY!!!..

YOU WANT TO SEE POVERTY THEN DELVE A LITTLE INTO YOUR POVERTY EMPIRE WITH 45M POOR IDIOTS MAKING 94% OF YOYR POPS..

Yet another billionaire selling Sugar!! Sugar! Cement! Those are the most useless product out there in the world market.

There is only one way to make tonnes of money in this world - create a monopoly and set the prices - make a super-profit.

In the modern world - with an open liberalized economy - it impossible to make money from sugar or cement - because everyone can buy it cheaply from high seas and sell it cheaply - competition will take all the margins.

So the only way you become a billionaire in says the US is to create a new unique product - possibly have it patented - and make money as a monopoly - before everyone start making it and drives the margins down.

But it's only in closed 3rd world economy like Nigeria that people make money from selling cement and sugar by making sure they have a monopoly - and forcing everyone to pay a lot for shitty products - and sending MILLIONS TO POVERTY.

samorobo:
Sorry I couldn't finalize my read in your wall of emotional cries...
You can never produce Dangote like personalities..yeah that's why the richest in Kenya which apparently is an Indian will be about the 20th richest man if he were to be in Nigeria..that says alot about your tiny economy and automatically put you in your league which is among your fellow eastern Africa backwaters...

There are many Dangote's in Nigeria doing great things... Another richest man "Abudul Samad rabiu" is building Africa's largest sugar refinery in port Harcourt singlehandedly and this man should be like the tenth richest in our modern society...now what has Kenya individual achieved or even the govt..can't your govt take us on such feat if your underachievers population is too poor to do such? Or is it becos your economy is still tender and poor to produce such individuals or govt fund to go on such grandiose project?...tell me which is it?


You want to see poverty then look no further. 45m Kenyans are very poor making about 94% of your pop...we are above your zoo country on all front..arguing from now till tomorrow won't change that singular fact which is a reality..

But 2 dollars for Nigeria is very expensive. 1 liter in Kenya is 1 dollar.

theenchanter:
yeah,processed.... In tetrapak.

If we wanted to have Dangote we would have them. All we need is for Federal gov in Abuja to ban imports of key items - sugar, cement, rice -except for a few selected traders - and to also make it impossible for any trader to buy serious forex. We would require them to write a long love letter to explain why they need to import sugar - and why they need to buy dollars.

And then we would have a selected few Northern Nigeria oligarch friend of ours - given the import licenses and dollars - as we reject other applications

After he has had monopoly importing for like 5yrs - he would have enough capital to build factories.

After he is done with building factories - we would turn around and now completely ban imports - because look Nigeria(Dangote) is now self-sufficient.

We use to do that until 1992 when we LIBERALIZED our economy. It now nearly impossible to have a Dangote - because everyone is free to import or export or to buy as much forex as they want - and everyone is getting richer - instead of 30 billionaires - and 100M extremely poor Nigerians

You have the richest man in Africa and largest number of poor people in the WORLD.

That irony is lost on you.

In the modern world - people are becoming billionaires by creating NEW products - not selling Sugar or Cement LIKE DANGOTE. When Dangote meet Bill Gates or Jeff Bezo - how many patents would Dangote have filled _ ZERO every year. It only in Nigeria where a cement or sugar businessman is making billions.

Only in Zoo - do you have 30 list of protected items - that a few have been given the monopoly to supply to 200m nigerias.

Instead of having 10,000 Nigerians importing sugar - You have Dangote doing that. Instead of 10,000 Nigerians importing cement - you had Dangote and few of Northerners doing that.

samorobo:
They are many but you asked if one...let your economy produce individuals or even if it is govt that would build a certain iinfastructure that makes existing in world look like a child play...that way you can be a leader in that .

Dangote fertilizer plant...largest in the world
Dangote Refinery....Largest single train Refinery on planet earth..



Don't even bother, there is nothing to learn from Kenya other than ballooning slum and re-creating slumpolis...

How does the color or ethnicity of Dangote matter? We have small gdp - let even say it 10B dollars - but Kenya has a bigger budget than Nigeria. That is money in gov coffers. If we go for bank assets - I can bet Kenya is probably now at 50B dollars - and Nigeria probably less than 100B dollars. Name any indicator - and your paper-weight economy is just not there.

obaaderemi:
You can learn how to build an indigenous African economy from Nigerians, not one where the richest people are Indians.. Your GDP is too small at $60bn.

You're illiterate. Understand the difference btw domestic and external debt. And understand why external debt is very risky

Before South Africa default like Nigeria - and cause a lot more economic havoc - they will print the Rand and pay off the debt. At least they CAN.

This is called Quantitative Easing (QE) - and few years ago most countries engaged in that. Basically CBN would simply buy of your gov debts by printing money & pay off the creditors. At least it's an option - compared to external debt that has to be paid in foreign currencies like USD - and you're basically sc.rewed for quite a long time if you default

US and EU printed lots of money during the last crisis - and they didn't die. Those who died from debt crisis are the Greeks who gave away their ability to intervene by choosing the Euro...something they cannot just print.

This is role of Central Bank...but it doesn't mean you print money like Idi Amin or Zimbabwe or Ghana or Zambia or Nigeria. Heck if you cannot print money - why have a Central bank and Naira -- just use the USD like your hopeless neighbor Ghana.

As for Nigeria's debt crisis. Let us not argue over basic facts. Your fake GDP may mask the GDP to debt ratio...but it doesn't the important revenue to debt ratio.

obaaderemi:
Lol @ bolded. I told you you know nothing about international finance. You just proved it openly again. South Africa like Kenya suffers from trade deficits. The Rand is already losing value like many others across Africa. Printing more money without corresponding production to match it would lead to inflation.! A secondary school girl in Nigeria can tell you that. It's o' level econs.
You remind me of Idi Amin who asked his central bank manager to just print money. When the man, an economist, advised against it, Amin had him killed.
Like you, your monkey east Africa grandpa, Amin couldn't understand why a country can not just print and print money like newspapers. I guess you are just as dumb as your fellow East African illiterate, Idi Amin.

We are paying salaries and servicing our debt. You should hold Kenyatta responsible when China seizes Mombasa port from under your nose.
You know the sgr you built with the expensive Chinese loan is already losing money.

Your debt profile is worse than Nigeria's. How are you going to pay when tourism is gone, tea is gone, your diaspora is broke and locusts are messing up your agriculture? Kenya is finished!

Sorry care tell me at least one single positive lesson one can learn from Nigeria? Ghana is better.

obaaderemi:
They are actually learning but they won't own up to their ignorance in front of Nigerians. I am sure when the likes of rvp and kikuyu1 are having beer parlour arguments or calling in on political radio shows, they make use of the points learnt from Nigerians and Ghanaians on nairaland.

Once we see passenger and cargo traffic - we can talk.

68816419:
@rvp: Chose ur favorite among dis systems?
Abuja light Rail
Lagos Light rail
Lagos Ibadan SGR

DMU is DMUS - the nose of the train is just the beauty on the beast.

68816419:
Train on the new Lagos/Ibadan rail line. Lagos will be a short 1 hour train ride from Trinity ONE

Nigeria SGR
Vs
Kenya SGR

Good. Milk is so damn expensive in Nigeria - and yet the North supposedly is teaming with Fulani cows with more rights than humans.

Look like Nigeria governors learnt something in Kenya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfztoXKc9G8

68816419:
After signing a deal with Cowbell [Promasidor ] to revive the redundant Ikun dairy farm, and getting 100 cattle from Zamfara to cross-breed with Jersey cows, Ekiti begins production of milk to supply Cowbell's factory in Lagos. The plan is to supply 10,000 litres of milk daily.

In terms of severity of the debt crisis...Nigeria is the worst..and will go down 5 times before South Africa. The majority of South Africa's debt is domestic. They can just print rand and pay them off...like US normally does.

But Nigeria - with revenues halving - to less than 10B dollars - cannot pay salaries - leave alone pay debt.

So technically Nigeria as of today is BANKRUPT. INSOLVENT. UNDER WATER. CHOKED IN DEBT.

obaaderemi:
Stop hiding behind South Africa from me!
Everyone except idiots like you know that South Africa is facing many economic problems right now including a debt crisis. You keep proving you know nothing about international finance. From a fellow expert:

Show me new slums - that have come up in Nairobi - slums have no area to expand. As we speak about 5,000 slum dwellers were evicted recently to pave way for sewage and water expansion.

Unlike Nigeria that has integrated slums - in Nairobi it easy to deal with them - because they are illegally built on public reserve land.

obaaderemi:
Is that why the slums are getting bigger?