budaatum:
"I'm trying to describe my point to you in the most eloquent manner I can but its hard so I'll say it the best way I know how." Me too. So lets try hard to understand what we are both imperfectly saying.


There is "a difference between belief and practice of religion", since one can believe a thing and practise the doctrine therein or not, practise being what I accuse UK of. UK takes care of it's citizens (free healthcare, money to feed) according to the doctrine that teaches that one should love one another. UK also loves it's neighbours as is seen by the amount it spends on foreign aid. Both these practises are an advanced form of what is taught in the Gospels - love one another and your neighbours - so I would say instead of UK 'believing' what they should practise, they 'know' what to practise and practise it specifically in their day to day life.

And it was indeed the scientific revolution (a revolution that brought in the use of the senses and not what was religiously handed down in ancient texts by people who had no glasses), that has suppressed the take up of religion. People cannot go on believing for long that which opposes their senses. Eventually they must concede to what their senses perceive. And there is no doubt that we see a lot better than the ancients did.


"Dictate", at it's early stage (up to 16th century in Europe, and after Mohammed in the Arab world), but you'd know how humans react to 'dictators'. God dictated to Adam and Eve but they went ahead and revolted.

In an advanced age, as in, long after the old ways of religion, which is the dictating of beliefs, have died off and the age of reason kicks in, people don't accept being dictated to because they now understand they have senses of their own and the right to dictate is in themselves if they use their senses.


Religion was simply how education was done in the past with its students being told to believe. Education today has evolved into teaching the abilities to understand and reason as opposed to 'believe', so I'd call them points on the same scale with one evolving into the other, and not "correlation" or "causation". The fact does remain that societies that advocate the individual use of the senses prospers more than one which just uncritically accepts that which they are told by a few ancient prophets.

Do note that it is my view that Buddha, Mohammed and Jesus, along with numerous others through the ages are teachers that advocated the use of the senses. It is we who contraditorily argue that we must believe.


The dwindling of Church happened because people saw and adopted a superior alternative which is education and so they stopped going to Church and went to school instead. In UK, Church saw this and evolved into schools but still taught religion (belief) until the scientific era took over and the curriculum changed accordingly. UK still has Church (and other religion) schools but you can't be teaching the curriculum according to God without Ofsted sanctioning you.

Nigeria is tending towards the same by eventually understanding that church has always been a driver to increase knowledge and understanding so more churches build schools. They still teach God done it in six days, but eyes are being opened to see that myth.


Religion does not just get stuck on words, but also on phrases. And it gets stuck through its beliefs which by their nature imply knowing already when the opposite is exactly the case.

Religion (the ancient way of educating) gives the false confidence of knowledge. Education (the modern form of religion, as advocated by the light shiners), puts a foundation underneath those beliefs where there is one, and weeds out that which is not knowledge.

The evidence suggests that both the religious and the atheists are in pits with neither having a comprehension of things. I would claim the pit the atheist is in is deeper only because the atheist knows there is a pit but not that they themselves are in it, while the religious think they are on the hill when they are not. But the depth of the pit matters not in the whole scheme of things since we all deceive ourselves, each thinking the little we know is the whole truth when the truth is neither even sees. It takes an acceptance of ones limitation and ignorance to accept that one knows so little, but thread after thread you'd see the ego of ignorance claiming knowledge that it lacks.

I'll borrow from the Bible to illustrate.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

A lot of people believe the above to be true, but in which way is it true? Would a better understanding not make it truer? In UK, it is known that if they learn about the natural world (the earth, fish, sea etc), and understand how to manipulate it to their advantage (rule and subdue it), they will have more resources to live longer and grow (be blessed), so instead of worshipping God with tithes and prayers, they worship by seeking and learning to understand the knowledge of the entire universe and all that is therein (Kingdom of God ), wealth that they store where moths can't get at it and are blessed because of their seeking.

Now, look at my country Nigeria which many would claim 'worships' God and tell me if we are blessed.

Ehn. Ehn. I think that's the belief that we've been forced to believe. Health care isn't free anyways. Everyone pays for healthcare with taxes lol. I hope that remains after brexit sha. I dont think it's because they care about eachother at all. I think it's so they can charge ridiculously high taxes and no one will complain. Really The UK loves its neighbours ? Maybe I'm being biased. The UK is one of the countries I detest the most in this entire world. The UK doesnt love it's own people never mind its neighbours. Brexit is LITERALLY the UK saying how much it hates its neighbours. The biggest most successful campaign of brexit was closing its doors and helping people.
Really ? Lol the UK is the WORST example you could have chosen to show any sort of religious or moral integrity. Anyways, none of this has anything to do with religion. I honestly dont see the religious basis of anything the UK as well as most EU countries do.

That's not true. The reformation had everything to do with money and how the catholic church treated it's people. It had very very little to do with science. The fall of Catholicism happened during the reformation. The rennasiance was the first period of alot of science and art in Europe. Catholics were still very highly in power. Then came the reformation which was the demise of Catholicism. Then came the age of englightenment. The age of englightenment is where we see alot of scientific discoveries. The reformation was caused my the mistreatment of the catholic church and its members.

Lol. Let's not use dictate then. Guides ? .

Really ? Regardless of the senses of my own, we still learn every day. I dont think theres any compulsion in religion but everyone follows a doctrine. No one lives freely on their own to the will of their own senses. That would make for a very messy situation no ?

I actually dont agree with that statement at all. In today's society, I honestly don't see how one uses their own individual senses in order to prosper. I just think newer ways of life have been evolved. We all live by a doctrine, maybe cultural or religious or even societal doctrines. They're never individual rulings though.
Is your issue with religion that its foundations are old ?

Wouldn't that just be a different way to look at the same thing ? I dont believe, religion itself that has forced people to remain in a misunderstood state. I think some people just choose to take words literally and not advance. I think people should be educated in all forms of education available so they can better interpret their religion in the way that applies to their lives. There are some things in religion that are very very clear and not open to interpretation. In this context, I dont see how practicing those rules has contributed to the lack of progression in religious countries.

I think alot of poverty filled countries just see religion as an escape. I dont believe that the increase of education will decrease faith and belief in God if one truly understands their faith. In Nigeria, there are many factors at play as to why there are more churches than there are schools. Lack of education, greediness and extreme poverty. Religion has been almost a drug that provides a sense of hope.

Budaatum. Do you live or have you lived in the UK ?

[quote author=JeromeBlack post=79752010][/quote]

Uncle Empiree, I see you eyeing the thread. Abeg biko I was only playing withu.

JeromeBlack:



You' d lose your religion if you ever met me.

In your dreams. Been there. Done that. It's now a throwback. I've never lost belief in God though. It seems pretty logical to me that theres a higher being out there. Aliens, FSM, whatever you want to call it.

JeromeBlack:


Welcome to modern christianity

Or just... a different way of life. . It needs to look like a duck and quack like a duck to be a duck.

JeromeBlack:


Until you get belle.

That's when your eye will clear

Lol. I got adequate sex education, handsomeness and intelligence wont make me off pant . Much to Emp.iree's despair

JeromeBlack:


Islam needs reforming just like christianity got reformed.

Mainstream Christians select and choose the parts of the bible they like. The accept that the bible is not everything.

Christianity reformed? Lol I think it's just not Christianity anymore. It's just a different way of life that believes the same principle that Jesus is God.

JeromeBlack:



Love is blind.

What if you meet a rich, smart and handsome guy, only to find out that he is a non Muslim?

He and I would be great friends.

JeromeBlack:



I broke a Muslim girl's heart actually. I stopped drinking alcohol but I couldn't just deal with her family. Her foolish brothers were pained that I was not a Muslim. They tried to intimidate me but I gave it to them. Good times


Another problem with Islam. Muslim women aren't allowed to marry outside the religion.

You too why are you following muslim girls ehn. Can you imagine. Lol face front, leave our sisters alone

Ah. Are muslim women complaining ? How e take concern you? I dont see why that bothers non muslims so much. Mind ya business.

JeromeBlack:


Have you ever worked in Nigeria before?

You sound like a rich babe that travels around Europe.


I was like that too not so long ago. When you work in Nigeria under hard conditions with mental people, your perspective will change.

I'm only a baby girl. I've not started working yet.

Plz I wish oo. Amen! I claim it by the Grace of God.

That's just Nigeria and mental people though. As a Nigerian, do you feel the need to reform Nigeria?

JeromeBlack:


I am not a Muslim and so I cannot be a reformer in Islam. It is up to muslims to organize and change their religion?

I dont agree with what Muslim people practice but I don't think its Islam that needs reforming I think it's the people.

The reality is most muslims actually dont believe in apostasy. They'd actually agree with my stance. Imagine if all over 1b muslims started executing everyone. We'd be in trouble.

JeromeBlack:


Human rights. I mentioned a story about Bala who was sent to a mental facility just for being an atheist. His Muslim family assumed madness made him disbelieve in God.

Human rights. In Nigeria where your boss will passively aggressively intimidate you to go to his church Thanksgiving.

Human rights where you could be arrested or beaten for drinking alcohol in northern Nigeria.

Human rights where women in certain places face harassment if their dresses are deemed unholy.

Human rights when 14 years imprisonment for being gay or supporting gay rights?

You do know that there are blasphemy laws in the North of Nigeria?

-‐-----------------------------

You are right. Muslims being arrogant is not mutually exclusive with atheists being arrogant. However, that is not my point. .y point is that the arrogant muslims are much worse than th atheists who are arrogant.

It is common for religious people to think that atheists are arrogant. After all, it is natural for one to be angry if someone comes and logically dismantle their way of life. A study showed that atheists are more versed in religion than religious people.


The simple fact is that the average Nigerian is a m0r0n. Let us be honest. And atheists are more likely to be intelligent than religious people.

But is that because of Islam or because of Nigerias society. Or the society of people who have lived a certain way and experience something different ?

Jaysus that's everywhere babes lol. I dont smoke but my friends are CONSTANTLYYY trying to get me to smoke something. I'm muslim and I'm constantly getting invited to church. My mums a nurse and shes constantly trying to get me to study nursing. I think that's just people trying to hey you to live their way of life which is even more pronounced in Nigerian society.

I dont agree with this that's ridiculous. Is it against the law in northern Nigeria? Why would you then go against the law ? In Ireland, because of public health, you cant buy or sell alcohol after 10pm and on certain days. If you're caught you'd be arrested and fined. If I decided that, I dont drink much so I didnt contribute to the public health issue so I'm going to buy alcohol at 11pm. I'm still going to get arrested. It's their law.

Nigerians are homophobic lol. Like that's not a surprise at all. Even if there was no religion in nigeria they'd still be homophobic.

I did know that. They dont want you to insult their religion. Dont do it if you stay there.

Noooooooooo I do not agree. From my experience anyways. They arent. I've met arrogant muslims and arrogant athiests. The athiests I've met that are arrogant, it's another level.

Lol here we go. I've actually read studies like that too. And with all the logic athiests love working with, they really dont use much in their day to day life. Like you just said athiests are more versed in religion than religious people. Like Duh. Obviously. Most people that are religious are born into their religion. They see it as their way or life and they just go with it. Thats just normal. Most athiests however reach a point where they question some parts of their religion and eventually go and study and learn in order to educate themselves. Eventually they reach a point where they completely disagree or it doesn't make sense to them and they leave religion. Most of them go through different religions and they all have faults or dont make sense with reality. Obviously youd have to learn about religion before you reach this conclusion. And most religious people don't do that. It's just a way of life for them. I've spoken to many athiests and even though I dabbled in agnosticism and strong irreligious beliefs for a little bit no athiest was EVER able to use any sort of logic to dismantle my belief in God.

I do agree that religious people need to educate themselves more about their faith and their belief in God however. That is the "advantage" atheists use to dismantle small minded people.

Hey! I'm an average Nigerian and I'm not a slowpoke. Speak for yourself
Sigh. I also read that study that athiests are more intelligent than religious people. Please be open minded to read and expand more on that. Its not true. I don't want to write a whole epistle about it.

budaatum:

Depends on what you are measuring with. Christianity in UK has evolved to the point that you do not need to see it on a persons shoulder nor is it a sort that involves "belief" as religion in Nigeria tends to. The scientific revolution cured Europe of that disease.

Religion is simply an ancient form of education that is now found predominantly in nations that have not yet learned the fundamentals of civilisation which is embodied in the commandments. UK has learnt this and advanced past the commandments to "love thy neighbour" and galantly now march toward Logos (Jesus), and Wisdom (God). It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver.

But as is said, those in pits cannot see the view from hills. They look at words used by ancients to explain what those ancients dimly understood and get stuck on meanings those ancient had for those words instead of allowing meaning to evolve into present day meaning.

I dont agree. I think theres a difference between belief and practice of religion. In the context of the OP then practice is what would cause someone to be intolerant to others religion. I guess I meant most Christians in the UK are non practicing. Non practicing in the way that it doesnt affect their day to day at all. In the slightest. It wasnt only scientific revolution that suppressed religion in Europe. It had more to do with discrimination from the Church.

I don't agree. Lol sorry. I think religion is a way of life. A doctrine that dictates ones belief and purpose in life.
Hmm. I'm trying to describe my point to you in the most eloquent manner I can but its hard so I'll say it the best way I know how. Forgive me if it sounds a little simplistic. I agree theres an overlap between overly religious countries and lack of education and poverty. But I dont think correlation indicates causation in this context. Most of europe were still very under practicing religious doctrines when they did the not so religious things they needed to do in order to advance. I dont see any religious doctrines that would really pull a nation backwards if used correctly.
I dont understand what you mean by "It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver." Did the dwindling of churches have anything to do with the proliferation of schools ? The dwindling of churches happened because people stopped going to churches and didn't agree with the practices of the church. The proliferation of schools, which still teach religion in a positive manner, happened because people wanted to be educated. I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Lol. That's a bit rude. Lol are you saying religious people are in pits and athiests are on hills . Do you mind giving me an example of what words that we religious people have been stuck on ? I'm just curious.

budaatum:

UK is a religious country but practised privately. When Queen Victoria was asked in the 19^th century if she believed the communion wine and bread really turns to the body and blood of Christ, she literally told people to mind their own goddamn business and not concern themselves with her private relationship with God. Tony Blair mentioned his faith and was ridiculed for it. With 27 Bishops of the Church of England holding permanent seats in the House of Lords, and the Queen being the Defender of the Faith, one could argue that UK is a Christian country, though other faiths have representation too and the future monarch has said he'd defend Faiths and not just "the faith". Personally, I look at road linings and see scripture. It does indeed say "Thou shalt not", a law that is very religiously obeyed.

UK is learning religious tolerance but not everyone has. Boris Johnson, who is vying to become the next Prime Minister is being called religious intolerant and a racist for calling women wearing the burqa “letter boxes” and “bank robbers”. Corbyn is under pressure to further sanction Chris Williamson MP for Derby North for antisemitism. And both leading parties are being accused of Islamaphobia and Jewishphobia. You've also got Catholic/Protestant, albeit dying off conflicts, in Scotland and Ireland, which is being eradicated through education. And if you asked Jews and Muslims in UK they would tell you they are persecuted, though, not as much as when the entire Jewish community of York was massacred “without any scruple of Christian conscientiousness”.

Ignorance. That's what makes some nations persecute minorities, be they religious minority, sexual minority, race, etc, and education is its solution, but some religions have an aversion to knowledge and education. The Abrahamic religions psychologically impose this ignorance by making people believe that they would die if they learn and the teacher is a deceptive serpent, when the truth is, knowing is what actually extends life. But you try teaching that to people who have been programmed to believe that Methuselah lived an impossible 900+ years!

Therein is the hope. People just need light shone on their ignorance, but the light shiners need to fully understand what they are up against and know how to shine the light. It's a funny odd world though that light shiners tend not to appreciate the light shiners who went before them as a template they can learn from. Thankfully, God uses all to confound fools.

I strongly disagree. In theory the UK may seem like a religious country but it is not practised in public or in private.

The Queen has no power in the UK. In theory she COULD have some power but in practice she has no power. The truth is, she doesn't do much. I am aware of the 26 now seats of bishops in the House of Lords. There are almost 800 seats in the House of Lords, 26 bishops dont have much influence. The house of Lords dont have much influence anyways. Laws are made by the House of Commons and the House of Lords theoretically checks it to confirm it's all in accordance with British values and practice.

Nothing is being eradicated by education in terms of the religous conflict between the Catholics and Protestants. It's not a religious conflict as it is a political conflict between two countries that happen to have a difference in religion. The conflict isn't dying believe me. Im not too sure about Scotland but the one between Northern Ireland and Ireland is alive and well and if they dont find an amicable way to deal with brexit itll get alot worse.

I agree with your stance on ignorance. I also think it's the addition of years of conflict and war that has turned the ignorant even when enlightened to intolerant. I think we all just have to be more tolerant of eachother. Not everyone has to agree or live the same way. Just be respectful and let everyone do their thing.

JeromeBlack:


Those laws criminalizing atheism and apostasy were created by Islamic scholars and jurists in those Islamic countries. Who are we to believe? Which Islamic school of thought or interpretation is correct?

Yes, while I agree that there is no punishment for apostasy in the Quran, many use the hadith to arrive at the punishment.

All honest muslims should fight for a change within Islam towards atheists and apostasy. No one should be executed for leaving religion

I agree no one should be executed for leaving he religion. I honestly dont know anyone who has.
Hey! Why don't you advocate for it ?

JeromeBlack:



European nations were Christian in the earlier centuries. Yes, they have been secularized and are no more Christian, obviously.

However, the UK still has a lot of Christians. Yet, the UK Christians hardly discriminate against atheists.

The point I was making is that Europe is far more tolerant than the Islamic countries when it comes to atheism.

How then do you preach or do dawah to an atheist when he tells you that he doesn't want to die in an Islamic country?

Which UK has a lot of Christians ? You mean the Christians that only go to church to marry and on Christmas day lol. There are parts of the UK that have more mosques than churches. British people arent very religious to be completely honest. They're a rubbish example.

The UK is far more tolerant because the UK is not a religious country. Insulting the queen used to be a crime in the UK. There are many European countries that will prosecute you for insulting their head of state. And Germany ( I think UK too actually) will still prosecute if you insult or deny the holocaust. I'm just trying to say every country has what's important to them, religion isn't one in Europe.

I dont understand what you mean by the last part.

JeromeBlack:



As an atheist, I would be less active if my rights were respected.
It is your muslims and Christians that force us atheists to be activists. When muslims call us satanism, pigs, perverts and deny us basic human rights, what are we to do?

Ignorant people usually see atheists as arrogant. Atheists are no where as arrogant as religious people.

Many muslims here know nothing about science, yet they feel knowledgeable enough to say that evolution is false. Is that not arrogance.


Many muslims who have never practiced another religion or atheism will just come and claim that their religion is the best; the perfect way of life. Is that not arrogance?


As an atheist, I have to read a lot about religion so that I can survive. If you are an atheist in a religious country, you must blend in or be cast out as a satanist or a pervert.


You also claim that very few people have been killed for apostasy or atheism. And also the that the atheists were being rude. False!

Just declaring atheism on social media can get you arrested or killed. Take Alexannder Aan for instance was imprisoned just for making arguments why he doesn't believe in God on an atheist Facebook page. This happened in Indonesia.

Another in Saudi Arabia was arrested and sentenced to death for disagreeing with the prophet on Facebook.

150 people were beheaded last year in Saudi. A lot of people who get arrested for atheism do not make the news. And Saudi are not always open with their numbers.

Also, by arguing and debating here on nairaland, a lot of Christians and muslims get to learn about our plight as atheists.

Okay. What rights are being disrespected ?
What basic human rights?

Ehm no. That's not true. That's a bit of a silly conclusion. Lol they're not mutually exclusive. Just because a Muslim/Christian is arrogant doesn't mean athiests arent. Actually I thought it was just me but it's common knowledge that active athiests can be very arrogant. I'm sure if you do a quick Google search you'll find some forums that ask the same question.

Lol many people here dont know alot of things including you and I. Someone once told me the people that spend alot of time on nairaland are the lowest of lows in Nigeria . But I've met plenty intellectually sound people here and some not to much. It would be quite silly for a non nigerian to open the ... romance section here for example and conclude that all Nigerians are morons.

Hey! Everyone believes their way of life is the best lol if they didnt they wouldn't follow it. I'm sure you feel your way of life is better than many religious ones too.

Really? You must blend? Lol honestly having been to many religious countries, I've never had to blend to anything. Obviously we could have different experiences, please enlighten me.

Neither of them were killed. The first one committed fraud and also insulted the prophet. The authorities didnt get involved until an angry mob of civilians surrounded him causing outrage. See ehn, you're in a muslim country and you're insulting the prophet. It's like me coming to your house and insulting your mum because I didnt agree with what she said/did. The first guy had been asking questions for a long time and it wasn't until he insulted the prophet that people got mad. I'm not an advocate for the persecution but I don't understand why one would do such a silly thing.

The second guy did the same.

Actually Saudi as an advocate of capital punishment and it doenst hide it. If they declared 1million no one will do nothing. Nonetheless the 150 which I also read is for ALL grievous crimes, including rape, kidnap and murder. Which some states in the US also practice and China (who doesnt declare a number ever lol)

I only ever see you in the muslim section though... Did a muslim girl break your heart ?

tintingz:


You can't tell me 10 people where only the people that were executed for being atheists, 10 people in the last centuries?!

I'm a pro free-speech, people should be able to criticize openly without being threatened. With free-speech we can see flaws in things, we can see how ridiculous some things are, we can see the reaction of the people and develop/advanced.

Why shouldn't I criticize a religion when it affects my daily life? Religions especially the Abrahamic religion think criticizing their religion is wrong but you see them disturbing the public with nonsensical things and they feel right about it. You see some Christians destroying shrines, you see some Muslims blocking road in the name of their religion, you see them arrogantly speaking against other people's beliefs, ways and they want people not to criticize this nuisance?

Religions cannot eat their cake and want to have it too.

There's no how you will talk against God and it won't sound offensive to the believer, religions are public matters just like politics, it affects people's daily lives, I should have right to speak against any practice I don't feel comfortable with or barbaric whether I'm in that religious country or not, why should one be killed for it?

Something happened in Australia where a woman speak against Muhammad and the ECHR prosecuted her because she hurt the feelings of the Muslims and it must be protected, this is a paradox by what ECHR stands for, I understand they are trying to maintain the peace in the country but the woman claim isn't far from truth. So basically if a Muslim said Atheism is foolishness and atheists will burn in hell forever, am I not offended as well, will that be protected?

People shouldn't be prosecuted or killed for free-speech, free-speech is actually freedom, it's the freedom that brought us to today's civilization, if i speak against you(not defaming) and you feel hurt, just walk away and move on, that's what free society is.

Hey! Hi! We have access to the same google giving us both the same source of information. Abi you didnt see where I said feel free to dispute. I googled it and that's what I saw.

I'm pro free speech too. But with free speech comes the consequences of that free speech. If I use my free speech to say something my boss doesnt like I could get fired. If I use my free speech to say racist, homophobic comments there are dire consequences. That's just life. Theres a difference between discussing something freely and insulting it.
Theres good free speech and bad free speech. Both are free, one comes with dire consequences.
Just like how many white people use their free speech to "criticize" about how much black people cause crime and are rapists and are in jail and as a consequence they lose their jobs or scholarships or university admissions.
Actually in the US there are actually lots of laws against athiests, just because they're not implemented doesnt mean they dont exist and one couldn't just bring them up anytime.

Where I live both muslims and Christians are ALWAYS shouting about their religion on the streets. Honestly honestly honestly I have never heard anyone criticise anyone. Honestly speaking. And if they did I'm sure both parties would face the consequences of those words.

Actually there are lots of ways you can talk about God without being offensive. If you were talking to your mum and you had a difference of beliefs. The way you would explain your newly found disbelief to your mum is how you would discuss it respectfully with others. Again I'm not an advocate of killing people based on religious purposes but when Watson lost his Nobel prize for chatting rubbish about black people I was happy about it and I keep that same energy for anyone who insults another person.

I'm guessing you mean Austria, where the Austrain police fined her against blasphemy. Which is against Austrain laws... Upon reading the case. She was fined because she mad malicious intent to interrupt religious peace. She took it up with the European union and they found the same. But athiests arent under any religious law or dont believe in hell. Theres no belief that I'm offending.

Nope! Free speech doesn't work like that at all. The reality is our words have alot of power. You can just see that in Trump's case. Because of Trumps words, the rate of unreported crimes in illegal communities have increased massively. That includes rape and domestic violence. It's a detriment to society and should be punished.

sorextee:
Okay, now that we are here, and I see no one is exchanging e-blows here. I have a question to ask.

I stumbled on one Islamic book, about death and journey to the after life. There, it stated that when a good person dies, the angels will peacefully carry the persons soul to heaven.

But when a wicked person dies, the is it angels abi demons (one of dem cant remember which again) will FORCEFULLY rip his soul out of his body. Lets focus on the keyword there FORCEFULLY. why that? I suspect some reasons, but let me hear from you muslims first..
Thank you.

Lol maybe because they're wicked and so itll be painful?

I don't believe the religion advocates for the killing of apostates and atheists. I think that's what happens when we take hadith that may or may not be true and we put them over Quran which is definitely 100% true.

PALESTINE is a muslim country where Jews were implanted. There shouldn't be any Jews anywhere there. Practicing or non practicing. I'm disgusted that youd even use this as an example.

Lol. The UK is not a Christian country. The UK is a neutral country partially ruled by the church of England. I think the last survey I read put the UK as one of the least religious countries in the world. And when I say religious, I mean religion would have an influence on the people. We all know homosexuality is not allowed in christianity and abortion is not allowed in christianity. I think the most religious period in the UK is just Christmas and Easter time really. Even Rome isn't religious at all. Lol in Rome its obvious Christianity is a form of art and a tool to make money lol.
If you want a muslim country like that maybe Dubai, Bosnia or Malaysia?

When Christianity was really influence in Europe before the reformation, they didnt even kill you. Youd be so frustrated youd kill yourself. We all know about the Inquisition. I'm sure you remember the the famous Galileo who was condemned by the church for simply disagreeing with them. I'm not trying to say this is right. I'm just trying to show you that this was the situation when christianity was in control. Honestly and truly, Religion doesn't have much power in Europe anymore.

Okay. I have a genuine question. What's there to talk about in being athiest ? Honestly I have alot of athiest friends. And most of them don't care to talk about God. Ever. I do have a couple that I discuss God with simply for educational purposes. For the most part, I understand they dont believe in God so I am respectful in that and vice versa.
To be completely honest with you, some athiests arent like that. You meet alot of athiests who are arrogant in their knowledge. They think it's silly to believe in God and they exude it. I genuinely dont understand why you'd have a complex about something you dont believe in. I've done a tiny bit of research about the people that have been punished (rarely executed; the number I've seen so far is around 10, feel free to dispute) in those liable countries and they honestly just rude. You can believe theres no God and talk about it without being disrespectful. How are you going to be in a STRICT Muslim country and talk trash about their religion ? It's just rude.. I'm not trying to justify it, wrong is wrong is wrong.

Anyways if we are going to compare countries with a real religious influence, Brazil would be a very very religious Christian country. Athiests face discrimination in brazil all the time. Maybe not as pronounced as the middle east but they're still discriminated against. Hey! In our very own Nigeria, atheists are discriminated against and not just by muslims. By Christians too. Lesbehonest here.

I'm not trying to say it is right. I absolutely hate all form of religious and non religious discrimination. I was just trying to expand on your comparison.

tintingz:
Promiscuity exist everywhere, it's part of human nature.

The polygamous marriage thing is also a promiscuity in disguise, a form of legal and open promiscuity for men.

Of course there are prostitutes in Arab countries, African girls have account how they do prostitutes and sex slaves for these men there, it's not a news.

How could you say such a thing? Promiscuity cannot exist in a place where they dont have sex education. Obviously. Women cannot be have children outside wedlock, they wouldn't know how. Without sex education, these things are impossible.

tintingz:
So what makes you think I've not experience things out there? If I get an experience out there so what next? Will you believe any of my experiences?

I asked you some questions, you are telling me to go out for experiences as if I'm always in my room.

The articles and informations online are not some people experiences?

Lol I don't know why you bother.

Trust me everyone knows Arab muslim men pay top dollar for NASTY NASTY things. Thats why you see these babes flying to Dubai and Saudi all the time. I'm sure you've heard what some IG girls have come out to say about Arab men. Obviously since theres no sex education in schools to corrupt their divine muslim minds, I wonder where the Arab muslim men learn to DEFECATE in ladies MOUTHS. I have a friend teaching in a private school in Qatar and he tells me male prostitutes get paid so much more than female ones .

I mean Obviously sex education in the west leads to absolutely disgusting promiscuity. Like no muslim in Saudi would be having extramarital affairs ESPECIALLY not their deputy prime minister. How would he even know how to buy a condom since he never got any form of sex education.

AlBaqir:


# In most cases, man's bad decisions do not only affect him but affect others in a negative way. Take a look at the man that detonated nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He did it on his freewill. He ended lives of generations and rendered the earth toxicated for years etc. You meant such a person and his accomplices should be left unpunished?

Surah Fussilat, Verse 46:

Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against it; and your Lord is not in the least unjust to the servants."

Life is a gift and blessing. It is a responsibility to protect it. Hurting and killing it is a form of injustice and ungratefulness to the bestower of life.

Such person should be punished for harming people. Not for disobeying God...

I was recently having a discussion with a friend of mine about returning stolen, looted and taken artefacts from various countries especially Britain back to Nigeria.

These artefacts are historically significant pieces that are being utilized to gather information about our past so we can understand our evolution further.

Do Nigerians actually want these artefacts back?
Do they have any significant meaning to the people today?

Similarly, what are your thoughts on reparations for the loss of lives and land during colonial times? As a nation, is it worth pursuing?

AlBaqir:


# Then, you obviously been spoonfed dogmatically on wrong submission about freewill and Destiny.

# Man is given "freewill - ikhtiyar" and at the same time, there is "qadar (measure) and qada (predestination)".

# Predestination is of two types: those man has no power to alter, this kind, man will not be question on it since it is fixed.

The other, man has power to change it: in fact, it is he himself who is writing it based on his actions that are influenced by "freewill" given to him.

# Yet, God is so merciful that man is not left to use his "freewill" power without guidance. Intellect is given to him, Prophets are sent to him and divine books are left to guide him not to make wrong decision. Yet, if he choose wrongly, the door of mercy of the Lord is always open for restart.

# Man will not be punished for not following God's wishes, rather he will be rewarded or punished based on his handiwork.

The above submissions is the summary of several verses of the Qur'an put together.

Sorry!

On the note of free will. I've always heard how lucky I was to be born Muslim growing up. That "it's not for a soul to believe except by the permission of Allah" . This baffles me because if then Allah doesn't give permission for someone to believe and they are punished... How is that free will ? Allah didn't give you permission to believe. You dont believe and then you're punished for not believing...

AlBaqir:



First, freewill given to man is not absolute. Otherwise, he will destroy himself.

Consider God's wishes and various form of guidances as Doctor who knew your medical informations. Many a times, your freewill wants to choose A, B, C, D but your Doctor instruct you not to because of their consequences to your health. Upon this instruction, you still have choice to listen and obey or not to. In the long run, you will have to bear the consequences.

God is our maker. He knows the best for us; hence, His instructions (wishes) is meant for good for us. There are philosophical arguments and reasons for God's instructions. Yet, we still have the freewill to obey or not. Qur'an says:

"7. And by Nafs (soul), and Him Who perfected it in proportion;

8. Then He inspired it what is wrong for it and what is right for it;

9. Indeed he succeeds who purifies it

10. And indeed he fails who corrupts it" [sura ash-Shams: 7 - 10]

Second, intellect is a non-corporeal entity believe according to Islam to be part of soul (nafs) which is also non-corporeal (mujarad). It is an enlightened entity which brings arguments and establishes right and wrong (as verse 8 above says). Yet, the power of freewill is so strong that it can override intellectual submissions.

Qur'an further says:

2. Verily, We have created man from Nutfah drops of mixed semen, in order to try him, so We made him hearer, seer.

3. Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful." [sura al-Insan: 2 - 3]


Third, then like I said, there is measure (qadr) and predestination (qada). Man for example has been predestined to have a particular unique features and characteristics (quiditty - maa'iyat in Islamic philosophical term) for example, two eyes, two hands, ability to stand upright, inability to fly like bird etc. This makes him distinct from other being. Man have no control over this. It is fixed. You try to change it, then you destroy yourself.

As per "paradise or hell" (for those who believe in the other world after death), man's handiwork based on his freewill to follow the instructions of his maker will decide that just like good health or bad health is associated with following or not following Doctor's instructions.

You made mention of an example in zakat. There is one beautiful hadith from Imam Ali/Imam Sadiq (peace be upon them both) which says, "the sustenance of the poor has already been aportioned in the wealth given to the rich".

Islam believe God is the bestower of wealth. He owns and designed this universe. He put wealth in various places for man. If you are given the privilege to acquire these wealth, do not be selfish. Give to the needy and poor.

Statistics showed that only 20% of world population control 80% of world's wealth meant directly or indirectly to all inhabitant of earth. Yet, there is suffering, people are dying of hunger, diseases, etc as a result of those who hoard wealth.

In the wisdom of God, zakat and other various form of monetary or wealth collection is introduced. We all admire how beautiful the western world is. They pay taxes and failure to do so earn punishment. Hence, there is punishment for those who refused to pay zakaat from what Allah grants them.

Hm. Thank you for your response.

I don't know what you mean by free will given to man is not absolute otherwise he will destroy himself.

The doctor scenario doesn't really work because it's my ability to choose what I want that's in question not if I can face the consequences. If I know all the options between A - D and I go against the doctors recommendations and I die then that was my choice. And I was given complete free will to make that choice. The issue here is, In the case of religion I would be punished for going against the doctors recommendation as well as dying. I've used my free will to make my choice so why am I being punished for it ?
Except the scenario in real life is follow my way or be punished.

I am in submission to God. I understand He is our creator and His way is the best way. I'm not disputing that. But it's clearly not a free will system if I'm punished for not following His way. Its not about the natural consequences of choices its about being punished for CHOOSING. e.g Allah says not to have premarital sex. Free will gives me the option to follow that or not. Its up to me right ? If I engage in marital sex why do I get punished ? When I've been given the free will to either obey or disobey. I chose to disobey.

Yes. We pay taxes and we are punished if we dont. Theres no disguise of free will. It's very clear. Theres no option. No choice. If theres an issue I can just move to a country where they dont pay taxes and live there.

I completely understand the concept of zakat and the importance of paying it. I promise you I'm not evil lol. I'm just saying why should one be punished for using their free will ? It's like someone saying to me there are two boxes. Box A is finest things in life and Box B is just terrible horrible things. The consequence of Box B is the horrible terrible things. If I choose box B I should face my horrible terrible things. Should be now punished for choosing box B when I was told initially I had the free will to choose either ?

Ultramane:


There are two types of Islam. There is the official and formal Islam that came to us through our ancestors - the classical Tafsir, Hadith and Fiqh. This Islam encapsulate everything I've mentioned. I can provide hadith evidence if you want.

The second type of Islam is the informal, customized or personalized Islam. The Islam that we conjure by sifting and often cherry picking through tafsir, hadith and fiqh. You might not believe that something is part of Islam, but that is your own Islam. For what you do not believe may be found in tafsir, hadith or fiqh - the formal Islam

Hmm. I believe theres one type of Islam and several types of muslims.

Since we dont live in the age of the Prophet, the Islam we have today can only be personal. In my own opinion. I think that's why intention is very emphasised in our faith. Just like how hadith, tasfir and fiqh have been cherry picked and sifted. This we know for sure. The only source of Islam that hasnt been cherry picked or sifted is the Quran. (I'm not trying to say the sifting and cherry picking is wrong. I'm just saying that it happened.)

All Islam of today is our own Islam. Something that could mean something to me due to my knowledge and experiences could mean something different to another scholar due to their knowledge and experience. Scholars disagree. Everyone disagrees because at the end of the day, it's all personal.

This is my opinion anyways feel free to enlighten me. .

AlBaqir:


# Then, you obviously been spoonfed dogmatically on wrong submission about freewill and Destiny.

# Man is given "freewill - ikhtiyar" and at the same time, there is "qadar (measure) and qada (predestination)".

# Predestination is of two types: those man has no power to alter, this kind, man will not be question on it since it is fixed.

The other, man has power to change it: in fact, it is he himself who is writing it based on his actions that are influenced by "freewill" given to him.

# Yet, God is so merciful that man is not left to use his "freewill" power without guidance. Intellect is given to him, Prophets are sent to him and divine books are left to guide him not to make wrong decision. Yet, if he choose wrongly, the door of mercy of the Lord is always open for restart.

# Man will not be punished for not following God's wishes, rather he will be rewarded or punished based on his handiwork.

The above submissions is the summary of several verses of the Qur'an put together.

Free will:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion

This may be completely due to my ignorance so please dont feel like I'm insulting you or I'm making solid conclusion. I'm honestly curious and open minded to finding out more.

How can I have free will and predestination ? That sounds like a complete contraction to me. How does one know the difference between fixed predestination and the one that's not fixed? Please if you dont mind using verses to back this up.

What kind of intellect ? That's not free will. How is it choosing wrongly ? If one had free will they'd be allowed to choose as they please. Forcing one to choose a certain "guidance" in order to avoid punishment isn't free will. What if I didnt agree with those guidance or I just didnt want to follow them. I have free will. Which is the ability to do things according to my own discretion.

What ? From what I understood, if you dont follow Gods wishes you'd be punished. For example it says if you don't give zakat you'll be burnt and beaten. Free will isn't follow my rules or get punished. That would be my understanding of free will anyways.

My biggest struggle in Islam was the idea of "Free will". I just didnt understand how we have free will if we are to be punished for not following God's wishes. It's a complete paradox to me.

usermane:
Peace

It's more about things that didn't make sense than things that were hard. Things like;

1. Prohibition of drawing and painting animals or humans.

Figure and portrait drawing are some of the most popular form of art. I had to give up both of them.

2. Prohibition of music.

I didn't quit music for good. I recall promising to quit several times, deleting all my tracks, but only to re-download them months later.

3. Lunar Islamic calendar.

Why are we using a lunar calendar? We've ditched this calendar in every other area of our lives because it is just too out of sync with seasonal rhythm. I don't know how many Muslims mark their birthday or how many Muslim countries mark their national day every 354 days.

One of the most obvious flaw in the Islamic lunar calendar is how Ramadan sometimes fall in the period of midnight sun in the earth poles, so that fasting in such areas is not possible according to the Qurán specification, unless the Muslims at the poles relocate elsewhere. An option which isn't really practical for a religion that is meant for all place and time.

4. Muhammad's marriage to a 6 years old and consummation of the marriage after 3 years.

I get that this was normal during the time. But Muhammad as a man of God should've known better. Which 6 years old is ready for the romance and sex associated with marriage, especially with a man of over 50?

Yet, even with this Muslims shamelessly parrot, "Muhammad is the best example for all mankind." Which obviously cement child marriage in Islam, a practice we all hate to love.

5. Prohibition against dating or courtship:

It never made sense to me that Islam forbid dating or courtship before marriage, but permits men to purchase unmarried slave women to serve as lovers or concubines.

6. Hudud; Amputating thieves, stoning adulterers, throwing homosexuals off rooftops or cliffs, killing apostates.

Obviously, if you've been reading my works for the past months or years, you can see I never really came to terms with these areas of Islam. I've in fact recognized them for what they are - Man made. And have stopped struggling to come to terms with them.

Hmm interesting.

Tbh I never believed in the prohibition of music or paintings. I just assumed one fanatic made those things up and everyone followed.

Honestly I never believed any of the things here actually. My biggest issue would also be the 6 year old thing too. I dont think its true to be honest.

Empiree:
what's definition of highlighted?. If someone doesn't accept your gayish is a terror!st?. Exactly gay man. Keep your distance. Rubbish

Lol gay man that's so funny. If you had any bit of reasoning you'd know I'm a lady. Anyways you're a terrorist.

Empiree:
perhaps, you now grasped my point when we argued homosexual practices. I said it is something to keep in their privacy but we will not be intolerant towards them in public or discriminate against them openly. But we will have their practice. That's not bigotry. But to verbally and physically suck them is homophobic and hate crime.




You are a living witness now. Tell your fellow CHRISTIAN and atheist bigots who claimed Christians are not allowed in Saudi

Please let's stay away from eachother. I actually think you're a terrorist.