₦airaland Forum

frosbel:
Scripture is a collection of ALL truths which God has revealed through his Prophets , predominantly and mostly during the time of the Torah.

What about the truth revealed through the Apostles?


I have other questions on this your definition, lets start with this one^

frosbel:
Simple : By saving

Are you kidding me, please say you are joking.

^^^ hahaha what have you been inducing yourself with my brother..

What do you know about scriptures aside the many mumbo jumbo you are fed with on wikileaks and similar sources. How old is this idea of yours if I may ask? Who is to say you won't be singing another song 20 years down the line?

frosbel:
Obviously you know this article was directed to Christians first and fore mostly in accordance with ;

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." - Galatians 5:1

But there are atheists and agnostics who are what they are today because of dogmatic people like you. At one point in time they were slaves to religion and decided to take the path of freedom from the confusion that abounds therein.

Though I disagree with them on the existence of God or Christ, their current status is evidence that false teachers are doing immense damage to the cause of Christ.

Misplaced priorities if you ask me, you don't even understand your belief, yet you delude yourself that you are aged and ripe enough to uproot the tares from the wheat within the faith. I can understand reformists like martin luther who understood the truth of scripture and they shook the anomalies within the church with their knowledge. You are more like an ignorant revolutionist who stands for nothing and will constantly fall for anything you read on the internet.

frosbel:
This is where you err, Neither the OT or NT saves, only God saves.

Think about it.

How does God save?

frosbel:
You keep failing in your attempt to project your feelings onto me.

I am perfectly fine , just trying to educate you , that's all, what you call the word of GOD is not entirely the word of God.

Ok bro.. what is scripture?

What books pass as scripture?

frosbel:
No, you took the easy way out by asking another question. My question was so direct it could never be missed by an honest scholar.

To your next accusation on what is more or less scared or even considered to be scripture, I have one question for you ;

Do you consider the NT to be 100% accurate and inspired without even one error ?

Thanks.

Do you notice I have been the one answering your questions all along, please attempt mine as well.

Now, can you tell us what you understand by scripture? and one more- What books pass as scripture for you?

frosbel:
Don't be daft, I am only stating a fact which is even agreed by current Christian bible scholars.

What agenda are we talking about here ?

Are you getting provoked?

'Christian' scholars from hell, may be.

You have an agenda of discrediting the Word of God, isn't it so?

frosbel:
Again you are quoting Paul's letters wildly without taking a step back to think about what you are saying.

You made a very erroneous statement thus ;
"This means every scripture that had been written before the time of the Apostles are not for salvation"

The bolded is a BARE FACED FALSEHOOD. Are you seriously telling us that no one in the OT ( So called ) was saved before Jesus ??

2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior— from violent people you save me.

Psalm 35:9 Then my soul will rejoice in the Lord and delight in his salvation.

Psalm 69:29 But as for me, afflicted and in pain— may your salvation, God, protect me.

When we say salvation, is it restricted to God's judgement?

Can't I be saved from other adverse things like physical death, impoverishment etc.?

Was there a concept of hell or a place of doom we needed to be saved from in the Old Testament?

Please show me any direct message of salvation in the Old Testament.

frosbel:
If I tell you that MOST of the books of the NT were written by authors other than people the letters and epistles were named after , would you believe this ?

And like JesusisLord85 said, most of the NT is simply a reference to the original scriptures, i.e the OT.

From that statement, are you trying to say the Old Testament is original and New is fake or less original?

frosbel:
-Revelation was not written by Apostle John - fact
-Jude was not written by Jude the brother of Jesus - fact
-2 Peter was not written by Peter - fact
-30% of the letters attributed to Paul were not written by Paul - fact
-NONE of the Gospels were written by the Apostles - fact

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_New_Testament ( I can provide you with more and more evidence, but your problem is you do not go beyond what you hold as sola scriptura ( lol ) and therefore not able to understand these facts.

This has always been your long hidden agenda on this forum, isn't it?

frosbel:
I asked you what Scripture Paul was referring to and you came back to ask for the definition of scripture, boy , that's not a direct way to debate with honest answers.

Anyway JesusisLord85 has come to your rescue !

My friend it is important I ask you these questions so we are clear that our definition of words align with the original bible meaning. Your question stemmed from the fact that the scripture says 'All scripture is inspired by God'. In your attempt to divide scripture and make some less sacred than the other you asked for the exact scripture Paul was referring to.

I came back to tell you all scripture means all scripture.


Now, can you tell us what you understand by scripture? and one more- What books pass as scripture for you?

frosbel:
The Leader is Christ !

lol.. Christ is the leader of this protest! leading atheist and satanist who are against the validity of the bible...ok

How do we plan and strategise for the success of our campaign?

JesusisLord85:
Did Paul teach from OT? I think you try an benefit from fact others do not know the many conversations we have had with you. Which is why I said it's best not to have the usual circular debate. But here, an old thread brother MostHigh opened to make this plain:

https://www.nairaland.com/1377933/apostle-paul-judaizer

Who are the hebrews? Dumb question.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Erm, the children of Israel. It seems (mild sacrasm) this epistle is written to them.

Yahshua spoke to those living in Judah - the Jews and those that dwelt therein.

Paul simply went beyond the walls to teach the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And for the benefit of those unaccustomed with this Edomite in disguise, here is a thread to understand who Paul went to speak with. Read it, digest it, and then you will wonder why this man asks questions we have dealt with in the past. He only seeks to deceive:

https://www.nairaland.com/1885089/gentiles-irrefutable-proof-modern-day-christianity

To my brothers, fellow Israelites, not everyone shall enter the Kingdom. Yahshua said that already. Choose whom you will serve today. Will it be the MostHigh. Or will it be the teachings of the wicked.

Ok.. I won't go the path of internal divisions within the Jewish nation with you. All I seek to establish here is the fact that

1) Paul, Jesus and the Apostles were not teachers of the Old Testament though they used it for reference to unveil the glory of God in Christ.

2) Timothy was not saved by his knowledge of the Old Testament (like Frosbel will have us believe) though it helped him understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

3) The entire bible is inspired by God (Old and New) and every part of it is scripture- documented, separated and reserved by God for our learning.

Where is our leader?

JesusisLord85:
lmao who are they he says..christians he says..
So we are back to the two gospel myth.

Was Jesus taught in the old testament?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Did the Psalms mention Jesus?

Was Jesus not hid in the Psalms?

Jesus was revealing a mystery to his audience... Jesus was veiled in the Psalms, He was unveiling himself to his listeners.

The unveiling of Christ was what Paul was commissioned to do with his teachings. More reason why he quotes the Old Testament to give a true and clear picture of what God had kept hidden in the past.

JesusisLord85:
Was the good news spoken to the men of old?

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Hmm so it seems they 'they' (Israel) is no different from the 'us' (the so-called Christians you speak of).

Pele

Who are the Hebrews?

Who are 'us' and who are 'them' in that statement?

What was the good news preached to 'them' and 'us'?

JesusisLord85:
hahaha, nobody is denying Paul taught the word of the Most High. What we are saying is he taught the Old testament. .

Where exactly did you see him teach the Old Testament? I hope you don't mean some sporadic references he made to verify his message.

Why were the religious Jews against him if he taught what they already know?

Paul made it clear that his message was all about Jesus and nothing else. Was Jesus taught in the Old Testament?

JesusisLord85:
that mean his writing should be made sacred,

His teachings are indeed sacred just as scripture affirms.

JesusisLord85:
when he is simply teaching from the scriptures. Does "Timothy, abeg you bring my jacket when you come" sound like a sacred writing to you? Do we lose anything if stuff like that is cut out?

That is where you fail to rightly divide one thing from the other....

Paul had his doctrinal writings and letters around FAITH, LOVE AND HOPE. Within these letters you will also find out that they were dealing with events as it concerned their immediate circumstances and culture of the time.

He also has what is popularly known as pastoral letters which also include historical events like what we see in the book of Acts and in letters written to Timothy, Titus, Philemon. You will come acros statements like 'say hello to ...' and 'get me my cloak' etc.

JesusisLord85:
His teachings are useful. Just like you believe your pastors word is useful. They are not to be used as a benchmark.

Wrong...

My pastor's teachings like Timothy's teachings are primarily drawn from Paul's teachings of Christ. The Old Testament gave us a shadow of what is to be but Paul revealed the entire mystery and wisdom of God which was hid from the Old Testament prophets to the church.

Col 1
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 [size=25pt]Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:[/size]

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
That belongs to the law and the prophets. For how else would we know if this man were true, or a liar? Just because he claims he is true? Of course not

Paul also made Timothy aware and by extension, my pastor that we must all stick to what he had taught about Christ.
2 Tim 3
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14[b] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them[/b];

JesusisLord85:
Luke 16:

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That is the sacred scripture.

Who are the 'they' in verse 29? Christians?

Remember Jesus was very much alive here, this event was before his passion and before his good news of salvation Rom 1:16.

JesusisLord85:
Anyway, I won't get into the usual debate with you. You know the truth. Just stubbornly hanging onto the demonic doctrines of our enemies.

A word is sufficient for the wise.

frosbel:
Now, this was the SIMPLE answer I had been waiting for over a 24 hour period. shdemidemi knows the answer but pride will not let him confess the truth, instead he tries to tie this verse together with the NT as a whole and thereby mislead young believers on doctrinal issues.

Are you also saying Paul's letters are not scripture? please wait! ignore that question for now and answer this one instead- what is scripture?

a) The Old Testament alone

b) All canonical prophetic writings

JesusisLord85:
Scripture is considered as sacred writings.

In the days of your father, Paul, the only scripture that prevailed was the law and the prophets aka the Old Testament.

Yahshua referred to it, Paul referred to it, and they all taught from it.

Paul's letters were just that, letters. I gave you an example before, but to edify others, let me give an example:

2 Tim 4: 9-14
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

This sounds like a bbm conversation between Paul and Timothy. Just a letter.

Nobody gave Paul power to write scriptures. I believe that is called "adding to the word". He wrote letters brother.

White men of rome, edomites, they decided it was 'scripture' in their minds. What does that have to do with us?

Time for true Israel to wake up (that's us brother). Put these false doctrines of our enemies to bed. It is time to stand firm, gird thyself like a man

Son of man, can these bones live? The time is at hand

Isn't this just absurd and ridiculous!

Even Peter in his epistle made it clear that the teachings of Paul are scriptures..

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Where did Paul get his teachings? Could it be from his natural senses(frosbel style ) or from another man?

[size=20pt]Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.[/size]

Paul's messages were not like regular bbm messages and they certainly were not just ordinary letters like you put it, they were inspired word of the risen Christ to the church.

Paul's letters made the message of Jesus Christ clearer to the church than any other letter.

His letters taught us what to do to be saved, the true meaning of baptism, the rudiments of God's election, the end of the church, the due service of every member of the body of Christ, how we must coordinate gatherings and how to select leaders amongst us and so much more.

Without the letters of Paul, no gentile would have been saved. He is the minister sent by God, appointed by the Holy Spirit to the Church.

[size=24pt]Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead[/size]

JesusisLord85:
Nobody gave Paul power to write scriptures. I believe that is called "adding to the word". He wrote letters brother.

If I may ask, what do you understand by the word 'Apostle'?

Was Paul one?

frosbel:
I am surprised shdemidemi that you as a teacher of the Law cannot answer in an honest and direct manner , what scripture Paul was referring to when he made the following comment ;

"and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." - 2 Timothy 3:15


Tell the house WHICH SCRIPTURE he was referring to, surely this is as straightforward as it gets ( clue underlined ).

You cannot and should not use questions and snide comments to try and meander out of this one , it's either you know it or not , if not , which appears to be the case , JUST SAY IT !

How did the phone call go, any luck ??

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I have asked you to tell us what 'scripture' is but for reasons best known to you, you evade the question. Now lets analyse this verse together... Lets use a simpler version to do this

15 You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.

Is the Old Testament scripture? Very much so

Are the words of the Apostles scripture? 100% so

Paul said the knowledge and understanding of the old testament had made it easier for him to accept the good news of Jesus Christ which brings salvation.Isn't this similar to what the Bereans did when they verified the authenticity of Paul's message through proper study of the Old Testament books. They had to check and verify because what he was saying is away from what they had always known. Paul succeeded in converting them because they saw for themselves how God had always had Christ and the gospel of Christ in mind as far back as the book of Genesis.

Romans 15:44 [size=24pt]For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,[/size] that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

This means every scripture that had been written before the time of the Apostles are not for salvation but for our learning. God had used so many stories, parables in the old to teach us what is to come in the new. More reason why Jesus says the religious Jews were blind to see all God was saying all through the old.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Even until this day people like @Jesusislord still pitch their nest on the Old Testament.


PAUL NEVER TOLD TIMOTHY HE GOT SAVED BY THE OLD TESTAMENT. Rather, He said the old testament prepared the mind of Timothy to accept the New, which leads every man to salvation.

frosbel:
aw, no answers then ?

You DO NOT KNOW[]what scriptures made [size=20pt]Timothy wise unto salvation[/size][/b] from his youth, right ? Well it definitely was not the new testament which had not been written at the time.....

Let me give you the option of making a phone call, I am waiting oooo.....

You really don't have anything substantial to say or do you? You seem to be resorting to frivolities, are you running out on power?


Hmm.. Wise unto salvation... Hmmm Frosbel.

What is scripture?

frosbel:
Bitter ? You keep trying to project your attributes onto me, it won't work.

I asked a simple question, what scriptures were Timothy and Peter referring to as inspired ?

Waiting Pal.

Lol.. Is this the same fiesty Frosbel? let's be having you bro.

Answer to your question- All scripture.


Now, what is A scripture?

frosbel:
Evidence that you aint got a clue, lol.

You answer my question with another question, does that make sense

I am waiting ooo for my answers.

Are you always bitter?

What was your question plus I thought you said you wanted to school me, go ahead bro.

frosbel:
^^^

Junk !!!

Show me ONE scripture in the OT where anyone believed in Abraham's bosom with 2 compartments or even Adam's bosom if you wish.

Don't start another pointless rant, just show me, after all scripture should validate scripture or are you not taking the metaphor in a parable to force a meaning which is alien to the truth ?

Let's deal with this in a systematic way.

Lol. you are still here!

CANTICLES:
Let the scripture explain itself in its usage of everlasting fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah suffer the purnishment of " evelastin fire" Jude 7 ..... IS FIRE STILL BURNING IN THOSE CITIES ?? NO ! They were destroyed forever !! .

Their experience shows that judicial purnishment of Everlasting fire refers to " everlastin destruction" 2 the 1:9

OR dont u read that many yrs after the destruction, Jesus said : ' Sodom didnt exist when he was on earth' Matt 11:23 ??

Like I will tell Frosbel, you must check meanings of these words and the context at which they were used.

Eternal can mean different things, so we need know the exact context that was used before running away with our conclusions.

Eternal.. Aionios in greek... Describes duration, either undefined but not endless. Titus 1:2, rom 16:25/26.

Aionios can also mean for a season 2 cor 4:18

Aionios was also used of the sin that can never be forgiven ... It means final verdict and not temporary. Mark 3:9, Jude 7


This word is different from aidios which means 'everlasting'. It means it is permanent and unchangeable as used in Jude 6.

Jude 1:6King James Version (KJV)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



So, Jude 7 isn't referring to an everlasting fire but a final judgement by God, for which there is no appeal.

frosbel:
So which scripture was being referred to here ? Don't dodge, answer or accept you do not know.

What do you understand by the word 'scripture'?

frosbel:
And please I am still waiting for the answer to my question, show me 1 verse in the OT that supports the concept of Abraham's bosom.

Do you understand some things were hidden and they stayed hidden all through the Old Testament?

The concept of heaven and hell and Abraham's bosom was briefly announced by John the Baptist and explained by christ than anyone else.

Deut 29:29
[size=32pt]The secret things belong to the LORD our God[/size], but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

Have it in mind that it is within God's prerogative to keep things away from us.

Now explain what you understand by ,Abraham's bosom'. I have been waiting for a bit.

frosbel:
.So if the Talmud is not for Christians why did you quote it

Where did I quote it?

frosbel:
Shocking, so you are now going to the Talmud just like the Muslims go to the Hadiths when something does not corroborate their Quran, lol.

Do you agree that the Talmud is not Spirit inspired ?

Finally , when Paul made the following statement, can you tell me which scriptures he was referring to ?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

Talmud isn't for christians my friend, it is for the judaism folks and their rabbis use it till date. Did you miss the part I said it was used once in scripture? Don't be quick to argue or be about your next point, take time to thing things through before typing.

Don't try and break scripture, if it says one it means one in its entirety. 2 Peter: "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (1:20-21).

frosbel:
Mate, just say you don't know the answers and I will educate you, stop dilly dallying.

Be my guest... Don't be shy to tell us what you think.

frosbel:
Lol, trying to play games with me ?

I await your rebuttal to my last exegesis before we move on to qualify the meaning of Abraham's bosom ( clue : a metaphor ).

No games at all, please answer the questions as best as you possibly can.

frosbel:
The bible certainly does not hold this erroneous point of view. The early church knew nothing of it, the apostles did not preach it and this should really raise the red flag, but alas for the religious dogmatic scholars they only see things from the strict narrow view of orthodoxy which is a rather made up mishmash of myth, fable and half-truths.

You can deceive people some times, but you cannot deceive people all the time.

The bible certainly hold these views and our Lord Jesus Christ spoke more of hell than He did of heaven. He spoke about hell than anybody else in the entire scripture.

Is it that you don't believe he said these things?