true2god:
You are subjecting (or comparing) divine revelation to human interference which is a wrong comparison. If you read the sirah rasool allah by ibn Ishaq page 550 (this story was also narrated by Abu Dawood hadith 38: 4346), one of the scribes who wrote the koran, by name Abdullah ibn Sarr Ibn Abi Sarh, had the same issue and almost lost his life for that. In Islam, under no circumstances is human interference permissible in the course of quranic revelation. Or are you saying the blind man was asking for clarification from the prophet on the course of the revelation and yet could not influence the outcome (which he certainly did in this case)?

On the bolded, I am not sure you are an Islamic scholar either. Your argument seems one-sided and sentimental.

No, there is a difference between asking questions and revelation came down to answer and a fictitious claim about being the one writing your own words to be revelation! The blind man didn't claim to have received revelation, nor did he influence the outcome, he only asked a question and answers were provided through revelation. What is the purpose of having a Prophet amongst you if you cannot ask questions and get response via revelation?! Perhaps when you understand this, you would not keep trying to force your Christian propagandist views about the Qur'an and what you think is interference in the cause of revelation.

How do you want me to address your ignorance in claiming that a hadith is surely fabricated?! Are you now an Islamic scholar of hadith?!

true2god:
On the bolded, if the companions were permitted to ask questions when revelations were being given, that meant that the quran was subject to human interference hence cannot be from God, or that the quran is from both God and man (since man can influence what should be revealed, in the case of the blind man).

God can of course pre-determine circumstances before giving his revelation without waiting for human input before taking decisions. I don't buy your argument bro. As a non-Muslim putting on the Islamic shoe here, that hadith is surely a fabricated one.

If you ask me a question and I provide answers, does that mean that the answers are from you?!

If I am to provide a guide for you (in real time) as you navigate your path in a jungle for instance, is it logical that you would ask me questions and I should provide answers?! Does these answers come from both of us?! Who is the guide and who is being guided?! Does your questions interfere in the fact that I am the one providing the guidance?! Does your interference or influence takes away the fact that I already know the answers and I am just attending to your needs as it comes?!

The Qur'an was revealed for 23 years addressing different issues some of which includes providing guidance to issues early Muslims faced. The Qur'an is meant for mankind, the practicality and the reality we face. It wasn't revealed at once for the early Muslims to figure out as they lived their lives, rather, they had the rare opportunity to experience the practicality of divine revelation, so that we can learn, apply accordingly and not make silly excuses that the guidance is impracticable!

As already explained, the question the blind man asked was for clarification, strengthening the fact that you are indeed allowed to ask questions in Islam, as well as the practicability of revealed knowledge and wisdom.

I am sorry but you do not have the requisite knowledge to "put your mouth" in this issue, let alone give a verdict on the authenticity of any hadith!

AlBaqir:


# I will only respond to two sensible points highlighted above. You can keep other stories to yourself

1. Fighting "Sunnah" of the Prophet? You mean the fabrications and lies concocted in Sahih Bukhari?

It is only when people like you cannot handle real issues that you go pathetic and fume such senseless talk. Note that Sunnah of the Prophet had been established ever before ANY BOOK OF HADITH or sahih Bukhari was compiled (more than a century before his alleged author.).

Books of hadith or ahadith attributed to the Prophet, in them are not Sunnah of the Prophet o. Sunnah of the Prophet are living traditions transmitted practically from one generation to the other. And any hadith that contradict Qur'an, other more authentic hadith and aql (guided intellect) can never be from the Prophet not to mention of being part of his Sunnah.

We both know what I mean, this is not the first time we are engaging on issues like this, but one thing is certainly clear, your deceit cum ignorance!

AlBaqir:

2. As per the ayah of nasikh wa mansukh, both abrogated and abrogating verses MUST be part of the Qur'an.

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman bin `Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240) "This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."


USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 53Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4530
 https://sunnah.com/urn/42080

This is the consensus of all ulama - be it Shia or Sunni - both abrogated and abrogating verses MUST be part of the Qur'an.
So, help us out and bring the initial verse that do not mentioned handicapped? We can only see what is in the Qur'an which mention handicaps. Lobatan.

Always shifting the goal post when exposed, na your way! I didn't quote the verses of the Qur'an to talk about some fictitious consensus, the verse of the Qur'an is clear, Allah (SWT) Says: “Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

What does "or cause to be forgotten" means Mr. intellect?! If abrogated verses must be in the Qur'an, what about the verse(s) caused to be forgotten?! My question about the verse was, did it also mean that Allah (SWT) forgets (audhubillah min dhalik!), since Allah (SWT) had to reveal another verse to nullify a previously revealed verse?!

Now back to your claim about the hadith in question, I first quoted a verse that permits companions to ask questions during revelation so as to make things clear, you ignored that... Again the narration explicitly stated the revelation was revealed to INCLUDE further clarification (so as to placate the blind man's worries), which normally was inherent in the first revelation. If I tell a group of students to run, and I know that one of them is handicapped, you don't need to be told that the handicapped is exempted, but for clarification, especially seeing the protest by the handicapped student, I would have to tell the student that he is definitely exempted! But in your quest to find fault where there is none, you claim that the narration meant that Allah (SWT) forgot (audhubillah min dhalik!)

This is your deceit and ignorance, it always manifest when you attack the sunnah!

AlBaqir:
4. DID ALLAH FORGOT THERE WERE HANDICAPPED?

Imam Bukhari documents:

Narrated Al-Bara:

When the Verse:--"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home)," (4.95) was revealed, the Prophet said, "Call so-and-so." That person came to him with an ink-pot and a wooden board or a shoulder scapula bone. The Prophet (s) said (to him), "Write: ' Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." Ibn Um Maktum who was sitting behind the Prophet (s) then said, "O Allah's Messenger (s)! I am a blind man." So there was revealed in the place of that Verse, the Verse:--" Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury, or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." (4.95)


USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 118
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4594
https://sunnah.com/urn/42730

We sought Allah's refuge from such nonsense.

You keep doing the same thing every time, your mission is to attack the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) but unfortunately for you, your deceit cum ignorance can easily be seen even for a layman! I was expecting by now, the narrations you would have presented would have been in the hundreds, but alas! Just 14?! 14 narrations which if we start analyzing from proper Islamic and academic approach, would be found to be sound, in fact some of these hadiths had already been properly explained on this section. To point one of your deceit, or to better put, ignorance, is the above narration of a blind sahabah asking about his plight during revelation...Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'an:

“O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah has forgiven that, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing”

[al-Maa’idah 5:101]

It is well known that the revelation of the Qur'an through 23 years dealt with real issues affecting the Muslims, people came to the Prophet (SAW) asked questions, and revelation comes to address them, I guess you think the Qur'an was revealed to address aliens issues right or you were never taught part of the wisdom of 23 years for revelation?! Let me remind you another verse which you often quote when it suits you:

Allah (SWT) Says:

“Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.”

[al-Baqarah 2:106-107]

I guess this also means Allah (SWT), in your own words, forgets?! I just hope you really understand sincerely the implications of your deeds on here, whatever you think you want to gain here wouldn't help you in any way on the day you account for them!

Salam.

aadoiza:

You get time.

Don't mind me jare, sometimes responding is leisure to me...

aadoiza:

Apt as ever.
Abeg imagine wetin that one wey quote you a few posts up write. Shamefully asserting that he doesn't need to make new discoveries but only knows how to verify other people's works. Haah!!!! And he's supposed to be a man of logic but his logic doesn't tell him that from all observations made he's a charlatan and an embarrassment to the field of science. What would even happen if all scientists had such a lazy mindset? Well, I presume,
that's more unfathomable logic from our well-informed, enlightened, independent-thinking atheists. Yeah, right.

When someone start bragging about being something or someone on a faceless forum without commensurate evidences or proof especially from the construct of such person's posts, then you should know that something is definitely fishy! Anyone can claim anything on here, when you continuously see lapses and gaffes in the line of thinking and reasoning, you can then easily differentiate who is who.

tintingz:
God is the creator of everything, humans never asked for any of this, he knows the future and knows what he wants, he created evil and has the power to stop it from onset since he hate evil(for the fact that evil exist God want evil to exist making him malevolent). But then he did nothing despite knowing fully well beforehand humans will err and evil will exist. So God should be blame for anything concerning creation. He created the heavy stone, why cant he lift it?

If a president knows beforehand terrorists will attack and he has all the power to stop them but did nothing and watch, what do we call such leader?


Yes.


Since God is imaginary.

Lmao...

It seems you don't understand reductio ad absurdum argument.

I don't believe in God, I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of a God being perfect, all-knowing, all-good and all-powerful.

Tintingz, you have only been able to mention 4 names/attributes/characteristic of God, and then jump to a conclusion! You have neglected all other names/attributes/characteristics of God, and you want to claim to be logical?! I have made this point previously, you have no say as to your creation, that of the universe and how it operates! If humans never asked for any of this, then why would you now want to dictate how God should be or how the World should operate?! This is where you should know your limits and be humble! This is where you should know you are arguing blindly! There is what is known as divine wisdom, there are reasons for how and why the world is the way it is! All these God had given us a guide to understand! With regards to your president analogy, it fails, because the information is incomplete! Why would the President not do anything?! Is there a reason?!

You should know, or let me remind you that God is also the all Wise, the Just, the Merciful, Severe in Punishment, the Oft-Forgiving etc. and most importantly, God is above and beyond his creation and there is none like unto Him! So when next you want to use your reductio ad absurdum, first make sure you recollect all what God used to describe himself in the Qur'an, and if that may be to much for you, then just take a look at how insignificant you are compared to earth, the Sun, the galaxy, the universe, then remind yourself that the one we I am talking about, created all these and even more that you do not even have an idea! Perhaps you may realize that the only one ridiculous here is definitely you!

aadoiza:

They are absolutely blinded to the truth. I used to think they were smart until I started engaging a few of them in discussions. I was able to decode their thoughts process within a handful of posts and was gutted afterwards. For them, it is all about guzzling and regurgitating what they know nothing of, and chirping about science and logic when they can't tell pseudo-science from science.
99% of them are fakers. They aren't real atheists but God-haters that's why everyone can see the absurdities in their proselytising. And also they'd rather preach anti-theism instead of their atheism charade.

Allow them bask in the seemingly endless afterglow of their charade until reality knocks common sense into them.

It is quite easy to deduce their MO, most of them have deep-rooted issues, the reason they cannot help themselves but rant and blurt out hateful and insulting comments laced with mockery...they deliberately loose their common sense to express their hatred and lack of tact! With regards to science, the best way to describe them is "follow follow" the absolute faith they have in pure assumptions, extrapolations and speculations in the name of science is second to none!

I have said it before, they have nothing to offer, coming here to ask silly questions keep exposing them the more!

tintingz:
You're simply wallowing in your delusion.

Your God who is said to be perfect, all knowing, the creator of every damn thing should take responsible for his confused unreasonable actions not humans who are imperfect and are prone to err.

He should lift the heavy stone he created.

But guess what your God is imaginary, we imperfect humans are just trying our best to things in order.

Me: God gave you freewill, hence you are responsible for your actions. Of course humans are not perfect (God made that clear), hence repentance, forgiveness and mercy exists, and my God is the oft-forgiving, the most Merciful!

tintingz: No, God is to be blamed, because God is perfect, all Knowing, the Creator of every damn thing!

tintingz: Well, your God is imaginary, God doesn't exist!

tintingz: I am responsible for my actions, I am not perfect, I am trying my best...

Me: tintingz, don't worry, at least you know you are responsible, and definitely can't blame God for the consequences... I just wonder why you are arguing about this fact?! You should make up your mind though, it is either you want to blame the "imaginary" God, or you want to blame yourself for whatever bad choices you make!

Akin1212:


Lol, you're still lost in the world of your ignorance. What did your statement of me studying biochemistry had to do with you not being able to see that your god cannot be omniscient because there are some things it doesn't know. All happening in your imaginations. And the issue of your God's ego and pride, despite not being able to lead by example after telling his followers to be humble is alarming at its peak. It is not my business that the myth is valid to you, and me studying biochemistry and also disagreeing with your bogus scientific journal based on hypothesis and not experimental procedures does have nothing to do with it either. Grow up and tender your points like a man.

I know I am responsible for my actions, I don't need you to establish that, however I can correct your mythical mentality that a presupposed entity that cannot be proved to exist gave me the ability to make my choices. Leave the consequences of my actions for me to deal with, I am not a sissy like you that runs to your imaginary friend for help when you encounter problems. Just prove that your mythical supreme being exist, and we won't be doing this at all.

My work is done here!

aadoiza:

Someone said it's speculative science. They don't actually know science but only believe it and still we no go hear word.

If this line in your post does not reset their brains I doubt anything ever will.

These ones here are never interested in the truth, they are closed minded and never interested in proper reasoning. Once they see you believe in God, they automatically arrogate intelligence and knowledge to themselves...I only respond to their posts to expose their folly, their inconsistencies and the fact that they are actually on a very ridiculous proselytizing mission i.e always coming to the Islamic section to bring up silly excuses for denying God.

Akin1212:


I have studied biochemistry for few years and groomed in the scientific methods. So if someone else applied the scientific methods to any work they did and provide evidence, I can read their works and be sure they did a good job. I don't need to discover anything for scientific theories to be valid. I thought you knew this but as usual, your ignorance wins again

And it is very honest to follow scientific works which are not based on personal experience or personal delusions than to follow a personal, deranged person who claims he can hear or see spirits. Or have you also heard from God? You need to think before shooting yourself in the foot.

God gave me the freewill to be able to choose not to worship him? Lmao, do you think before you type at all? If God wants me to worship him, why give me freewill to be able to choose not to worship him? Seems to me like a very confused God.If God willed it so, why get angry or punish me that his will came to pass? Confusion is the order of the day. And if it makes you feel like you're intelligent, a fish must also be intelligent then.

As usual, always prevaricating and bringing up unrelated issue(s), it so much shows your inadequacies. By the way, you brought the issue of ego and that is what my quoted post was addressing, and taking your gaffe into consideration with regards to a scientific journal which was further broken down by a science magazine, your supposed study of biochemistry and grasp of science à la the scientific method is suspect!

All I need to establish here is that you are indeed responsible for your own choices/decisions/actions, whatever rants you may imagine and spew online doesn't change this fact, so when the consequences do eventually come, don't look for who to blame, because that is just very silly!

Akin1212:


The matter at hand is investigating the omnipotent and omniscient nature of God. Bringing in analogy of a prof who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient begs the question, what are you doing dude? How would you even bring in such analogy when the prof cannot be be all knowing nor all powerful? You went off point.

The specifics of the aspect you were explaining was not addressing the functions of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

You need to go back to my initial post to understand the specifics, not making up your own assumptions! I didn't make unfounded claims about the Prof, but used an instance whereby the Prof who did what he ought to, and knows beforehand that indeed the student will fail! At that point also, the Prof has the power to change the situation for the student, and I asked a simple question, how would you have wanted the Prof. to stop his student from failing!

You haven't been able to tell me that the Prof doesn't have that knowledge at that point in time, or not having the power, you just want to dismiss it based on your own assumptions which are in no way reflected in my post! You should know that I am fully aware of the Prof's limitations compared to God, hence my careful presentation stating the specificities and not in the general terms of the comparison.

Akin1212:

Even if the prof bumped on me writing nonsense, he would be shocked and feel sorry for me. He does not have the power to stop me from writing nonsense. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would be able to do that. That's where your analogy fails to apply.

No, that is what you want to think! You want God to stop you from failing when God had already given you what you needed to pass?! Lest you confuse yourself, God is indeed Merciful, but also severe in Punishment! These are the information about God already established, you wanting to hold God responsible for your actions, is plain dishonesty! I have pointed out the mercy of God with the continuous open window for your repentance until death, but it seems that is still not good enough for you! Again, it is still your choice!

Akin1212:

A God also would have created me and given me the power to make the choices. He knew I was going to make the choices at some point. It had all been written down. But a prof didn't know I was going to make the choices to fail, he only bumped on me writing nonsense. Please throw away this analogy. Let's face the issue squarely.

But the Prof had given you all what you needed to write the correct answers in the exam, the Prof. from experience knows some students are irresponsible, and some would still fail, that you chose to be the irresponsible student isn't anyones fault but yours! Until you make a better argument, instead of looking for what I didn't state in my analogy, yep my analogy is spot on!

Akin1212:

God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit at a particular time spells everything out. It means he knew how everything would turn out, so why blame Adam and Eve for it? Now learn how to apply analogy.

Let's say you (God) created an automobile (man) that drives itself (freewill) and you know it will break down because you put something in it that will cause the breakdown if it passes a bump (eat a particular fruit). However, you went ahead to build the bump(the fruit) and placed it close to the automobile. The automobile breaks down as you had pre-known it would, will you curse and blame the automobile? Despite that you have the power to not put what caused the breakdown initially or not create the bump that would break it, but you opted against that. Will you blame the automobile for breaking down?

The question is, was the automobile fitted with information in the programming of its self-driving functionality that would enable it navigate a bump easily i.e, choose to avoid a bump?! Why would I create a self-driving car that cannot navigate through bumps and other road impediments?! Are you not capable of obeying instructions and act accordingly?!

Akin1212:

If legend is true, then God is to blame, becaue he had the power to make this world what he wants it to be like but he opted for this chaos. As an omniscient being he saw everything even before he started. This couldn't have been the only option, or is it?

Well, if you had studied the "legend" properly, you would have known that God dictates how things should be based on God's own plan which is supreme. There is wisdom and purpose, and until you can create your own universe and the rules that governs it, you can only be in perpetual denials! It doesn't change anything!

Akin1212:

You as a typical Muslim would know about destiny. It's like the second or third big thing taught in Islam. That the rich has been destined to be rich and the poor has been destined to be poor. Is it true or not?
These choices you talk about, can they change these destinies? If I'm to take you seriously then you have to spell it out that God doesn't get it right always on destinies because our actions and choices determines our fate. Where there is fate and destiny, that had been written by God, there is no freewill. Where there is freewill given by God, there's no destiny and fate. Think about it with an open mind.

Yes the rich has been destined to be rich, and the poor also, but what you do not understand is that, first until there is no other option for you (and that is, in most cases, death), then you still have the opportunity to change whatever you do not want or like about your life! In Islam, you earn what you labour for! You are responsible for your actions while putting your trust in God completely! God had stated that he wouldn't change the condition of anyone, except he/she changes his/her own mind and perspective about life! This tells me that I can't be here ranting about how God didn't make me rich when I can start showing gratitude for what I have and put in the work and activities required to change my affairs, of curse including prayers!

Akin1212:

A God that knew about the deaths before they happened and could stop them from happening and yet did nothing is malevolent. I have a say on how the world functions and I am gladly telling you that it functions without the input of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God. That being does not exist!

Okay, whatever helps you sleep better at night, just tell me what your say is in stopping natural disasters from happening, I guess it is denying God right?!

Akin1212:

Yeah, God created the whole universe just to be worshipped. So much ego there.

If God, the all powerful created me to worship him, then I wouldn't be doing otherwise. That's another flaw lol.
God, however, knew I was not going to worship him before he created me, didn't he? He knew that despite the guidance he provided. The bulk of us will not take it. Then he went ahead to create hell fire for the ones who will not follow the guidance, the ones he already knew before they were born. I am categorically telling you bro, the aim of your God is to destroy, he derives joy in it.

Oh sorry, there's no God to even begin with.

Lol, God has all the right to brag and be proud! Have you tried to imagine the vastness and complexity of the universe?! What about man and the amazing features embedded in him? You that have only studied bch for few years did not let us hear word, you never discovered anything o, you just dey read other people work ni o...

You chose not to worship God, because God had given you the freedom of will. God gave you the will to choose either to worship him or to deny him, it is not surprising to God that you chose the latter, because there are only two possibilities here...God had willed it so!

Since you believe God doesn't exist, and no one is forcing you to believe, then know that you are indeed responsible for your actions, and that is what is most important, cos at the end of the day, you have yourself to blame for any eventualities!

tintingz:
Sino,

You're confusing your explanation to determinism.

Destiny on the other hand can be a cognitive bias thing, anyone can make a claim this event will happen without no evidence of connection or causality, it's like a post hoc fallacy.

I used the definition you posted accordingly, but regardless, when it comes to what Islam teaches about destiny or divine decree, it absolutely doesn't conflict with the freewill given to man. There are some things we cannot escape in this world, no matter how we try, here your freewill is expressed through your response or reactions to this, while some things are as a direct consequences of our activities, thus, we could have easily avoided them if they were bad by making right choices initially, and even if we had made wrong choices, we still have the opportunity to make corrections by acknowledging our mistakes and moving on to making better choices.

All in all, Islam does not teach that man cannot make his own choices and decisions, rather Islam teaches that man is responsible for whatever he labours for and ultimately his end.

tintingz:
You explaination is faulty.

Destiny is future events which will necessarily happen(fate) and according to the second definition it's controlled by hidden power which I assume to be God.

The moment one is born his/her destiny exist with it, every actions, choices, events have been destined already even before the baby is born, it is like a program, you can't do anything outside this destiny/program. The time you will eat, sleep, bath, make decisions etc has been destined, some higher imaginary being in the sky 100% know this and has written it down.

Now can freewill work here?

Freewill, you act without constraint of necessity and fate, your decisions are your decisions, no one knows your future, no hidden power control it. You can change your choice any time any day. Things just happen by experience or so.

A student that doesn't study has high chances of failing, was it destined for him that at a particular period he's going to be unserious with his studies and fail or he's simply making his choices without no constraint of future fate or hidden power.

The moment someone can 100% certainly know or tell all your choices and actions beforehand the moment your freewill is hijacked, such person can write every action you will make long before you do them, you can't escape it, you feel controlled or bound to it.

It is either destiny is an illusion or freewill is an illusion, putting both together is conflicting.

The question is, do you know your destiny? If it is hidden, but you sure know you are free to make your own choices, how does that contradict or conflict with your destiny which you do not know?!

I have asked you a couple of times, do you feel you are being forced to make your choices?! Are your choices made consciously?! Someone having knowledge of all your possible actions and choices, doesn't take away your ability to choose! That someone is not choosing for you, you are making choices for yourself on a daily basis!

Except you know the future, your destiny would be dependent on your own actions and choices.

Akin1212:


Yes, it will be illogical if the argument tends toward the availability electricity of as a source of energy for the processor and no other source. An analogy must have an analogue in all respect. That's why it's an analogy ffs.

But then the brain has it's own source of energy and so does the computer processor. So it depends on what you're defending and the application.

It is obvious that the professor is not a creator of the student or what he knows, neither does he have power to change anything or know everything about the student. It betrays the focus of this particular argument and it doesn't apply.

I believe that advice is for you. Please learn how to apply analogy.

I was very specific about the aspects of the Prof. and student analogy, but since it would expose your line of questioning as being redundant, you then go on a tangent bringing up irrelevant information.

You wrote above that my analogy with regards to the brain and computer depends on what I am defending and the application, I'll say, my analogy depends on what I am explaining and the specifics of the aspects I am using! It is not important that what I am using as an analogy is quite different in terms of characteristics and even more from what I want to explain, but rather what is important is that there can be a resemblance between them...

Akin1212:

The prof only knows that IF I write nonsense I will fail, and if I dont write nonsense I will pass. He doesn't know whether I will definitely write nonsense or not before the exam. That's what we are talking about here. God either knew definitely that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree anyway, or he didnt know they would eat. Any one it is, it always faults the concept of A God.

If he knew they were going to eat it no matter what, that would make him omniscient, "all knowing" and wicked, because he knew what would happen will cause problems but he allowed it. And hence there's no freewill, because they only acted according to his plans.

But if he didnt know they were going to decide to eat from the tree, then he is not omniscient, because he didn't know they would decide to eat from the tree.

The Prof saw you writing nonsense is what I am talking about, and definitely knows that you will fail! It is your choice to write nonsense, and you failing is the consequences of your own action!

God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit doesn't precludes the fact that it was a decision and an act they did on their own after being advised to contrary. It doesn't take away anything from God, cos he gave them the ability to make choices in the first place! They could have easily avoided the fruit, but they didn't, and no where is it written that God made them eat the fruit! By the way, they accepted responsibility for their actions/disobedience and made amendments. But you are looking for who to blame, and I just hope this is not your reality in the real world!

I have already made my point clear about the limitations of the possible outcomes of an event as well as an action humans can make at any given time! Having these knowledge doesn't mean that you don't have a choice, but it seems to you guys that is impossible, but the reality is that it is very possible! No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do na!

Akin1212:

No it doesn't, the only problem is when you people define God, you don't leave it with any blemish. Give me a break please. An omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God would not even let ebola outbreak kill hundreds in Congo, he would not let famine kill children in Yemen.

That's why the simple philosophy of epicurus is valid until today.
Is God willing to stop evil but not able, Why call him omnipotent?
Is he able but not willing, Why is he omnibenevolent?
Is he both able and willing, Then why is there evil?
Is he neither able or willing, Then why call him God?
If a God exists, then we wouldn't be here discussing this.

This is flawed reasoning, it focuses on the negatives and amplify it as if that is the whole story, but there is more to these occurences than just the death and the chaos! Until you have a say on how the world functions, I believe this issue is way beyond your pay grade!

Akin1212:


If God the all knowing knows my end is destruction, but still went ahead to create me, then he is malevolent and he derives joy in seeing me being destroyed making him not all loving. And he can't do anything about it which makes him powerless, so he is not all powerful in the end. Thanks!

But God didn't create you to destroy you, he created you to worship him. But God knows that due to the freedom given to you to make your own decisions, you can deny him, and choose a wrong path, still, God sent guidance, but you have rejected them all, you are proud of your choices, you even make mockery of God, in all honesty, if you continue like this till your death, do you think you deserve a reward for your own actions from this God?

tintingz:
Please explain.

Very well, from your definitions, destiny has to do with the future, or your fate, it is unknown to you, hidden, while your freewill is your ability to make your own choices based on your own discretions. Your conscious efforts in your decisions or choices shapes your future, a student consciously neglecting his studies is definitely creating a destiny of failure! There are no hanky-panky in this. You can't blame destiny which is unknown to you for not taking your studies seriously!

God being the all knowing, knows the future, all outcomes of your choices and decisions, for the fact that God had given you that ability to make conscious choices, then you alone is responsible for them! Hence, you either acknowledge your responsibilities or you can be in continous denial...

tintingz:
Me sef no know ooo.

# Destiny - the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

the hidden power believed to control future events; fate.


# Freewill - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

My brother how these two definitions work together still baffles me.

Let me help you, your freewill determines your destiny! It is quite simple! If you want further explanations, you may politely ask, and I shall oblige accordingly.

Akin1212:


Lol. You still dont get it, do you?

The argument is to ascertain the omniscient "all knowing" nature of your imaginary friend, God.

Your analogy of the professor does not apply, except if God is as limited as the professor.

A professor knows that students will may pass or fail an exam, but he does not know which one. While a God would already know which one would fail an exam even before the student was born.

A professor is not all knowing, a God is all knowing.

Even if a professor now sees a student writing nonsense, he still does not have the power to stop the student from writing nonsense, because he is not omnipotent, "all powerful." A God can stop a student or anyone from failing in life because he is omnipotent.

On that premise alone, your analogy is illogical and faulty. Its very simple Mr sino. Just be honest with yourself. The argument is based on the omnipotence and omniscient nature of God, of which only the concept of God can attain that level. Nobody else can, not even a professor. No analogy can save you from this, just argue the matter and dont bring strawman arguments, be honest.

I see the problem here, if I make an analogy of the brain with a computer processor, according to you, it must be illogical, cos the brain is not limited by availability of electricity, while the processor is! Please learn the application of analogy and stop all these your gaffes! It is grotesque!

The prof even though not all knowing, or all powerful, knows that you writing nonsense is failure, and while seeing the nonsense, actually has the power (as the course convener and examiner) to stop you and even give you the right answers, I guess that is what you want?!

Must all powerful God mean that God must do whatever you want whenever you want it?! What sort of skewed logic is that?! Are you supposed to dictate to God on how God should be and carry out divine activities?!

God, the all knowing, knows your end, and this end is based on your own choices! God gave you the opportunity to choose your own end! Except you want to tell me you aren't conscious of your own choices and decisions, then you may have a point.

Akin1212:


How do you intend to convince illogical theists? There is no way.

They will go out of their intelligence most times to defend their imaginary almighty friend. Can't you see how ridiculous they have become trying to make sense out of nonsense? People that faults science and believe a medieval book? Stop wasting your time dear friend.

The funniest one is sino, who is fond of bringing illogical analogies into arguments .
Can you imagine? Does the professor know beforehand that the student will fail? Lol. Isn't the professor curious about who's going to pass or who's going to fail?

This thing is very straightforward, did God know that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit before creating them or was he eager to know what they would do? Whatever the answer to that question is will always fault the concept of a God.

I salute your doggedness though. But this is an advice, these ones here are mediocrities when it comes to reasoning. Their logical faculties were tampered with deeply from childhood. Except, and only except they sit down and take themselves to it, they will not bow to your positions, because they are filled with theistic ego.

The Prof knows beforehand that students who write exams would either pass or fail! But here he sees a student in the examination hall writing nonsense! At that point in time, the Prof has a beforehand knowledge that the student will fail! So does this fault the concept of a Prof in the University system?!

You my friend have the capacity to reason properly and also reason stupidly (except you do have a congenial stupidity disorder ), should it be the fault of God(or whatever brought you to existence) if you start reasoning stupidly?!

Let me help you before you misconstrue my post, you know not listening in class and not reading your lecture notes is indeed stupid, but you chose to do so and started writing nonsense in the exam, instead of taking responsibility for your failure, you started ranting about your hatred for the Prof! So who is to be blamed for your failure?!

Adam and Eve disobeyed God, fortunately for them, they knew they were in the wrong for disobeying God, and sought forgiveness and God forgave them. Out of the mercy and love of God is the fact that you being imperfect, can misbehave, but you can also make amends and seek forgiveness, you are given this opportunity everyday till your last breath...But it is all illogical to you (even though it is what reasonable people do when they fail, they acknowledge their faults and make amends), you dig your heels in and stand by your atheistic convictions...And it is okay, after all, it is your choice and decision, not mine!

aadoiza:

Thank you, for this.

You are welcome bro

tintingz:
Lol, you also mean the professor will look at everyone exam sheet page by page in the exam hall? Where does that happen?

Go back and read what i posted properly.

tintingz:

Oga, that professor does not know the future, he's just studying the student which made him more imperfect, because if he does know the future he won't bother checking any student exam sheet, he would score the student F before the exam sef, now that's not freewill.

Does the Prof Know that his student would fail because he saw the student writing nonsense during examination?! Is the Prof writing the exam for the student?! Did the Prof force the student to write nonsense?! Does the student have the capacity to learn and write the correct thing?!

tintingz:

An all knowing entity doesn't need to study you before knowing your results, he doesn't need to interact, he knows long before you even think of the action. Kindly stop using that weak analogy.

The all knowing entity gave you the freedom to choose! The reason you are human with intellect and not a goat! You have the capacity to make informed decisions and choices, it is not by accident and you are not forced, you are responsible for your actions and would surely account for them!

tintingz:

Ok, assuming the professor interacts with the students and can determine who will pass and fail, he can simply score them before the exam, wether the students did well or not, the scores are already written, it has been destined. Now that's not freewill. Infact exam is useless in this case.

But the Prof being a just man gave each student the same opportunity to prove themselves so that there would be evidence to show the student that he failed on his own! Again, the Prof wouldn't write the exams for the students, and he surely wouldn't fail the student if he writes the correct answers! Remember, the Prof had already done what is expected of him and even more! The outcome of the examination is dependent on the student's performance and not on what the Prof knows!

tintingz:

Humans are not perfect in the first place and God knows that, why then is he punishing when he already knew humans will err?

I am intelligent, loving, caring and I know my baby will crawl to that naked wire, what is the right thing to do?

Of course we aren't perfect, and that is why the window of repentance and forgiveness is always open till death beckons.

The baby needs to be protected by you, cos the baby isn't equipped to make decisions yet! You on the other hand, knows better, but still went on to make a bad decision! Is God to be blamed for this?! Even at that, God still wants you to make the right decision and continues to give you respite, but do you care?!

tintingz:

If God know I will be a Christian then he knows, if he knows I will be a Rastafarian then he knows, the ultimate thing is he know the end of it beforehand.

Yeah, God Knows, but it isn't God's decision or choice for you, you are always the one that makes the choices! By the way, the end of it all is made clear to all, it is either good or bad!

tintingz:

I don't believe in any imaginary master in the sky watching us like 3D.

God know I will eat by 8Pm, then It has been destined I will eat by 8pm, I've no choice over it, if my choice contradicts God's knowledge then he's not all knowing.

Lol, is it possible for you not to eat by 8pm?! Is God or anyone that is forcing you to eat by 8pm?! What are the other things you could possibly do at 8pm?! Can it be something that is unheard of in the whole universe?! And at the end of the day, isn't it your choice to do whatever you want at 8pm?! God Knows everything, but it is still you choice!

tintingz:

You are not outside the universe or are you, can you reason outside this universe or experience outside this universe?

If God has written down all my choices, there is no freewill. Don't you see how contradicting you sound?

Of course we are all bound by the realities of our existence in this world, thus, you can't possibly make choices that are outside of what is possible in this universe! The Knowledge of all belongs to God! So God gave you the freedom to make your own choices which are bound in this world/ universe, and my friend, there are consequences...If you do not like it, perhaps take the next available shuttle outside the universe!

tintingz:

Nature doesn't have any choice, nature works according to their natural order, God in other hands has choices to make, he has the power to correct his mistakes(if he's loving) but no he did the opposite.

This is ridiculous! Did God inform you that there are mistakes or you are assuming these occurrences are/were mistakes?! If there is a natural order, where is this order coming from?! Is the order with a purpose? If yes what is the purpose, and if no, why is it an order?!

tintingz:

If there is a place that is good and perfect then that makes this world meaningless, if God actually want his creation there, we shouldn't be here doing some silly test.

If God knew he's going to kill those poor innocent children in Sodom why then created them? It's only a sadist maniac that behave that way.

Naah, this world is worthless, not meaningless! The meaning of this world is what I have pointed out to you earlier which is about being responsible and having a purpose! But unfortunately for you, you cannot escape this "silly test" cos you are bound to this world and all the laws/orders that governs it including actions and the consequences of such actions! You are free to whine and rant, but it doesn't change anything! By the way, God actually wants you to be in paradise, but you are the one refusing it, you have chosen the life of this world as the only one you want with all the imperfections and "evils"...It is your choice, and I can't force you otherwise!

I know the glass is always half empty in your world view. God created the children and killed them to put them all in paradise regardless of the crimes of their parents or community! Paradise is a better place for them than living in this imperfect and evil world. You not believing in paradise doesn't change anything, death is a reality, and everyone will surely die at one point in time!

tintingz:
LMAO!

A professor does not know the future, he himself is not perfect talkless of the student. He does not know who will fail and who will pass except he's professor Xavier in X-men.

A student can cheat and get away with it.

A student can perform well and still fail.

A student failing does not mean it's the end.

These things are not perfect!

Exams are organized because humans are not perfect in the first place, if a professor can know who will pass or fail, there is no need for exam because the professor already knows each student destiny, there is no freewill in this case.

Stop using this weak argument.

Did you skip reading that the Prof looked at what the student was writing in the exam hall?!

I have not made any extraordinary claim for my Prof, but used a simple fact of knowing the outcome of an event/action. I am always surprised at how you people can't understand simple things! Does the Prof not know that the student would fail?! And FYI, a Prof who knows what he is doing can easily tell you who would pass and who would fail his course, even while interacting with his students in class!

tintingz:

Your God will purnish finite entity like humans for eternity, a cruel purnishmemt. Your God who's able to know the future and stop evil from onset allowed evil to exist and want to punish people, if he's all good and loving he shouldn't allow such to happen but he behave like a sadist. That's the most meaningless belief on earth.

Are you able to resist evil?! How come?! Do you think God didn't know you can resist evil?! Is it a conscious choice by you or you think you are being forced or destined?!

tintingz:

If God knows beforehand I will be an atheist and will burn in hell, it's already in my destiny and can simply be written down. No freewill here. Since he knew, for a good loving God, he should have do something to convince me he exist but he sat and watch like a malevolent maniac.

God also know before hand that you can be a devout Muslim, a Christian, a Rastafarian etc. These are choices available to you and to everyone, only you chose the one you wanted and that is atheism! You want God to convince you with your own standards?! Since you don't believe in God's standards, then you shouldn't whine about the consequences! You have made your move, all you need do is wait....

tintingz:

Providing guidance is meaningless, he already knows those that will pass and fail, it is only an imperfect entity will give rules.

lol, Do you think you have failed?! Have you seen your future?! Do you want to pass or fail?! It is always your choice bro, you can't blame anyone for your own actions and decisions!

tintingz:

I am simply doing what the universe has bound me to, we can't experience any other thing outside this universe.

If a God can know my future then I don't have freewill because he can simply write all my life down and I will simply follow every step.

Lol, yes, good and evil actually make this world meaningful and purposeful but a world without evil is meaningless and purposeless, which is a world like the fairyland paradise.

Oh it is the universe that is dictating your actions?!

Nope God has written for you all the available choices you can make, sent down guidance to direct you, and gave you the freedom to choose from the available options! God knows your future if you choose the right, and God also knows your future if you choose the wrong! Ultimately, there are two consequences, good or bad, it is up to you!

And here was I thinking you were advocating for a evil-free world, but alas!

tintingz:

Lol, you're still defending this crap.

The children were innocent your God knew that and he purposely killed them not that nature killed them, now that he killed them they are living in a meaningless fairy world.

Oh you do not want the children to live in a world that is evil free i.e paradise?! Do you think death isn't part of living in this world?! When natural disasters happen and children are killed, is nature purposefully killing these innocent children?! If you don't want to believe the children had gone to a better place than this worthless earth, at least acknowledge the fact that it was a natural disaster, and such does not spare anyone, even children!

tintingz:
What a failed logic!

A professor is NOT all knowing he's a human just like the students the reason he's not even perfect, he doesn't know the future, that analogy does not fit in with your God who is said to be all-knowing and perfect.

For the fact that a God can tell your future long before you're born nullify freewill, you are simply acting in what he already knows like a programm.

Let's go back before God created everything, God knew that humans will err, he hates sin and evil why create evil and even humans, did humans asked him to create them? Why did he allow evil to exist when he hate it so much?, he has all the power to stop it, he's the creator, he's all good, there shouldn't be any room for evil in the first place!

Now that he allowed evil to exist, he's threatening humans with what he is responsible of, Is he malevolent or impotent? A threat is even a threat to freewill.

Can God make a stone so heavy God can't lift it?"

Freewill when it comes to an all knowing God is an illusion.

Your God purposely killed innocent children and infants for no reason, is he just malevolent or what?

I think Satan is not even the devil.

1. You see, when you aren't able to answer a simple question, you go on rambling and ranting! This is why you people cannot be reasoned with! The Prof. knows his student writing nonsense in the exam hall would fail, the student who chose to be irresponsible with his studies and writing nonsense, knows he would fail, but instead of the student to take responsibility for his bad decisions, he starts blaming the Prof! "The Prof saw my script while I was writing nonsense o, and he still failed me...." "God knew I would be an atheist o, and would still burn me in hell".

The real questions are, are humans capable of making the right and wrong decisions?! Did God provide guidance so humans would not to make the wrong decisions?! Are there consequences for our decisions?! Did God inform us of the consequences?!

God did not force your decisions on you! If there is no freewill, you wouldn't be here exhibiting your freedom of will! God (evolution or whatever you want to hold on to) gave you the ability to make these decisions, and from your own understanding thus far, are there consequences for your decisions?! If yes, then you absolutely cannot fault God for your own decisions or actions!

You seek the world where there would be no evil, but apparently, this world isn't that! There is absolutely no amount of wishful thinking that can change that, nor do you have any other world to go to! This world having good and evil gives credence to the importance of making the right decisions, and taking responsibility for your own actions! Your ranting about God wouldn't change anything! Yeah, you have denied God, eh ehn?! What is new?!

2. We all die at some point in time, death doesn't look at age or your level of innocence, regardless, children generally are all admitted into paradise, where there happens to be no death or evil! It is always a win for children that die! But since you do not believe in paradise, I ask, were the children going to live forever?! Do natural disasters separate those to be killed by age?! Are innocent people not dying everyday?! Abeg look for another argument!

tintingz:
The Quran said Allah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the sins and evil of the people, one of the main reason is the practice of homosexuality.

Did Allah tried when he sent Lut to to warn them? He's ominipotent and knows things beforehand, why can't he stop these things he hate so much from onset?

What about Children and infants, were they also killed?

1. A Professor did teach his students for 12 weeks in a semester, organized tutorials for these students, did revisions and also made study materials available (for free) which had the exam questions...On the examination day, he was supervising his students, and saw that some where writing nonsense, of course he knows these students would fail! So how would you propose the Professor stop these students from failing?!

You my friend have exercised your freewill by denying your creator, you are proud of it, you pride yourself as being intelligent, reasonable and rational! No one is forcing you to change your mind, of course you are free to make your own decisions. If you are given two choices, and then given adequate information to guide you, do you also need to be forced to make the right choice?! After your claim to be an intelligent being?!

2. Do children and infant live forever?! Does death always skip children and infants during natural disasters?!

Rashduct4luv:


For your above claim to be valid, you need to answer the following questions:

what's your field of Specialistion?

At what degree go you operate? (1st, 2nd,...)

How many papers have you submitted?

In what Journal were your best research(es) published?

And was it accepted nationally and internationally?

If you pass the above test then you may certainly be scholastic enough to thrash "a Professor's years of research" otherwise you're just a jape!

The dude doesn't even understand the content of the journal, talk more of being able to critic or refute it! As I have opined earlier, these guys parading themselves here as intellectual atheist here, are just parochial and full of pride! The truth or even seeking it, is alien to them!

Akin1212:


I seriously love to see you fail at every attempt to make this analogy valid.

I am done with showing you that your apology of an analogy is wrong.

For educational purposes. Air does not contain oxygen, air is only a term for many gases present in a place at a time. It is different from quantities and compounds such as water, salt etc.
Air does not have a quantity, it is not a compound. I have realized this need to be hammered into your head. The mixture of gases in the atmosphere that we call air are not bound together chemically. You really need to be taught chemistry.

When we breathe in air, we breathe oxygen. To avoid this kind of misinterpretation was why sometimes in biology and life sciences instead of saying we breathe in air and breathe our air, they'll rather say we breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbondioxide. For clarity purposes.

While I'm done with respiration,

We needed to be told that oxygen is one of the mixture of gases in the atmosphere, we needed to be taught and it was stated before we were taught respiration. It was stated clearly.

But since the Qur'an has decided to confuse the lots of you by not giving explicit definition and explanations, it is subject to misinterpretation's from self acclaimed intelligent beings like you who attempt to explain it to suit their narrative.

While I like schooling you on certain things, I am so done with this back and forth.

These are simple comprehension issues and your own comprehension seems to be the best, right?

Goodluck with deceiving gullible people with it.

But don't forget that the Qur'an is a trash book that is insufficient at all levels in explaining the existence of man.

You want to discuss a very important issue like the existence of man , you just don't say man was created from Earth and end it there. You have to go further to explain the process and the constituents used. A biochemistry text book would have done that. But behold, the Qur'an is the best book the world has ever seen.

Be advised, get a good grasp of the term 'analogy'. So you might present a good logic next time and not this apology.

When your source for defining respiration sated that oxygen used for man's respiration is from air, they must have been illogical right?!

Does the air we breath contain oxygen or doesn't Mr. Biochemist?!

And where did I claim the oxygen in air is combined to other gases?! Are you sure you know the meaning of mixture at all?! Are you sure you did compound and mixture in your secondary school chemistry?!

Atmosphere ko, biosphere ni....

"Humans, and many other species, need air to live. They breathe in the combination of elements and compounds and exhale a similar set with different proportions. Exhaled air consists of 78 percent nitrogen, 16 percent oxygen, 4 percent carbon dioxide and potentially thousands of other compounds." Source

Oga Ade wants to us to say we breath in atmosphere oh, sorry, oxygen lol, our distinguished Biochemist!

Akin1212:


You obviously think all hypothesis lead to theories, no they don't.

Most hypothesis such as this useless one die at this point, when the lies are detected.

I cannot continue the research because the hypothesis is not true and unreasonable. They claimed that clay hydrogels were responsible for holding the cell membrane together. Lol.

Like I said, the cell membrane has been extensively studied and it does not contain clay hydrogels. The cell membrane is a fluid of phospholipids. We understand how they work. That hypothesis is a lie. I can't waste money on a lie project. Do you ever wonder why the research was discontinued?

Trust me, I have found the truth but it's not in the Qur'an. I know how much you wish the Qur'an is a truth book, but it is not.

This how you know a lousy scientist (in this case one claiming to be a biochemist), show me where the researchers claimed that clay hydrogels were responsible for holding the cell membrane together or that cell membrane was made from clay hydrogels?!

One of the important point of the researh is the following:

"In simulated ancient seawater, clay forms a hydrogel – a mass of microscopic spaces capable of soaking up liquids like a sponge.

Over billions of years, chemicals confined in those spaces could have carried out the complex reactions that formed proteins, DNA and eventually all the machinery that makes a living cell work.

Clay hydrogels could have confined and protected those chemical processes until the membrane that surrounds living cells developed."

The researchers where combining geology and biochemistry (molecular biology) to propose an hypotheses, carrying out some simulated analysis, that could possibly answer some of the knotty questions in abiogenesis.

For better understanding of what the research was all about you may read the abstract below:

"In most contemporary life forms, the confinement of cell membranes provides localized concentration and protection for biomolecules, leading to efficient biochemical reactions. Similarly, confinement may have also played an important role for prebiotic compartmentalization in early life evolution when the cell membrane had not yet formed. It remains an open question how biochemical reactions developed without the confinement of cell membranes. Here we mimic the confinement function of cells by creating a hydrogel made from geological clay minerals, which provides an efficient confinement environment for biomolecules. We also show that nucleic acids were concentrated in the clay hydrogel and were protected against nuclease, and that transcription and translation reactions were consistently enhanced. Taken together, our results support the importance of localized concentration and protection of biomolecules in early life evolution, and also implicate a clay hydrogel environment for biochemical reactions during early life evolution."

To think you claim you can school anyone on abiogenesis, makes your above post disastrous to your supposed knowledge of anything science!

But again, what do I know?!

Akin1212:


There is no general term for respiration, that's a wrong definition from the dictionary. Respiration is what it is.

Lmao. So can man respire in the absence of air and the presence of only oxygen? I believe you will answer this.

I have answered many times that man uses oxygen from the atmosphere. Air is a mixture of gases, just a mixture. If one or two of the constituents disappear today and it remains oxygen and carbondioxide alone, it will cease to be air and respiration will continue.

Do you need me to break all these explanations down for you? Lol.

If oxygen only is available and air is not, we will still respire and live normally. This is not secondary school science. Learn.

Oxygen is the needed source of electron for respiration and science has claimed that.

But the claim of the Qur'an is that earth not part of earth was used for creation of man. In light of this, your analogy is a wreck.

I agree that you tried bringing an analogy, but you're only close. The analogy is wrong.

Air contains oxygen used for respiration, it was stated.
Oxygen is what we use for respiration, it was stated.

Earth was used to create man. It was stated
Part of the constituents of earth was used to create man. No it wasn't stated.

Is this not simple enough that the analogy can't work? Mr intelligent and ahead of the likes of us, I am terribly disappointed!

Oga biochemist:

respiration 1 the process of gaseous exchange between an organism and its environment. In plants, microorganisms, and many small animals, AIR or water makes direct contact with the organism's cells or tissue fluids, and the processes of diffusion supply the organism with dioxygen and remove carbon dioxide. In larger animals the efficiency of gaseous exchange is improved by specialized respiratory organs, such as lungs and gills, which are ventilated by breathing mechanisms. These organs possess respiratory surfaces, across which gases are exchanged with the blood or other transport medium. This then carries dioxygen to the body tissues, and removes carbon dioxide.

2 or oxidative metabolism the various energy-yielding reactions of cells or organisms that require oxygen as the final electron acceptor. See respiratory chain. —respiratory adj.

Source: Oxford dictionary of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (2000). New York, NY: Oxford University Press. (emphasis are mine)


Lol, I think you have gotten the point of my analogy, but just want to argue to save face!

Akin1212:


Lol, you keep trying hard to defend this apology, it is a poor example. I wonder who's not thinking between me and you.



Your analogy is based on what is being used and leaves out what is being quoted by the the Qur'an and science. I seriously think you deserve a Nobel Prize for this analogy for it's nebulousness.

I maintain that science has never claimed that air is used for respiration.
But the Qur'an has always claimed that Earth was used to make man.



Yes, earth is used to make man according to the Qur'an, but air is not used for respiration. At least science does not claim that.

This is my position and it is what makes your silly analogy faulty.

You have really tried to sway that into helping and promoting your narrative. Well done.



Thanks for not telling me to believe creation, it's very unbelievable so I'm not yielding. Why would we even need to believe truths and facts? You only believe something that is not a fact. I salute you for believing in creation. You're really intelligent sir


Just point to where the Qur'an said we use some of the constituents of earth to create man, just as your analogy points to one of the constituents of air being used for respiration. Only then will the analogy stand. Simple enough



I know that part of intelligence is to believe things without facts, part of being intelligent is to assume or believe that a being which is a spirit exists and created man from Earth. Lol.

I also know that part of being intelligent is to provide a poor analogy and try to escape scrutiny and criticism of such analogy. I don't know the peculiar thoughts you have synthesized in this argument, I see how you think about thinking by repeating that as air is used for respiration, so was earth used for the creation of man is a valid representation of logic.

You sir, are one hell of an intelligent human being.

You are ahead of the likes of us, that's true only when your ignorance is considered.



Let me just laugh off your ignorance, you just proved that air is not what we use for respiration here. This approves my faulting of your analogy that you cannot place air in the same category with earth in an analogy when this argument is concerned.

But since you're a thinker of thinking, you know it all. Lmao.



Let me quickly nullify your explanation which supports your narrative again.
The Qur'an said, man was created from Earth. Specifically and nothing more. No further explanation like we took part of earth to create man.

But science was explicit too and said, man need oxygen for respiration. But the only place man get the oxygen from is from the lungs and the lungs hat the oxygen from the atmosphere. The purpose of air to man is not specifically to produce oxygen, air has many purposes.



You are terribly mistaken and ignorant of chemistry and biochemistry. Man gets oxygen from the atmosphere. Do you understand that?

Oxygen exists as molecules even in air, oxygen is not bound to anything. Maybe because they call it air and a mixture actually confuses you which I am surprised because you said you are ahead of the likes of us. Tell me now , do you think we need to separate oxygen from all other gases before we respire, you know like breaking some chemical bonds?

Air is not even a necessity for respiration. It has been demonstrated many times. Divers, swimmers etc.

Air is not a molecule or a compound, air does not have a quantity, it's just like mixing things together and the constituents are existing independently.



Yes, absolutely. I will and can school you on abiogenesis if you don't mind.



Lol, what an irony. You speaking of pride is really an irony. Mr better than the likes of us, how dare you?

Whatever you have studied is your problem, if you had studied biochemistry even for a year, you wouldnt have made most of the statements you've made here.



On this I concur. The Qur'an can never be Lehninger or any biochemistry textbook. They are not in the same category when it comes to truths and facts. The facts in lehninger are testable and verifiable. Well, how can we verify the claims in the Qur'an? By you explaining what you think? I guess not.

This is the most pathetic attempt for an argument, I never claimed air is used for respiration, and my analogy is based on the fact that what we are made up of, can be found in earth! Just as what what is used for respiration can be found in air! How this is nebulous for someone claiming to be a biochemist is scandalous!

But I will entertain your folly a little further, please answer the following question

How does man get the oxygen for respiration?! Is it by oxygen tanks?! Do we all carry oxygen tanks about?!

Does air not contain oxygen?! And does air not contain other gases?!

When we breath, what do we take in?! Only oxygen?!

Now after answering the questions, tell me where in my analogy that I claimed air is used for respiration?

Now read carefully: Man respire using oxygen "from" air! Is this statement wrong?!

From your own source we read:
“Aerobic respiration

Glucose and oxygen react together in cells to produce carbon dioxide and water and releases energy. The reaction is called aerobic respiration because oxygen from the AIR is needed for it to work.”

The Qur'an states, Adam (AS) was created "from" earth

You do not need to be told that oxygen is PART of air, likewise, you need not be asking silly questions or make silly statements that the Qur'an should have stated part of earth and not from earth...

These are simple comprehension issues, you do not need to have studies the whole of principles of biochemistry before you can understand!

To all other vituperations above, they do not worth any form of response!

Akin1212:


Oxygen can be collected and attached to the inlets. Oxygen is what we need whether there is air or not.
You cannot deny that. Air is not needed, I believe you understand the meaning of NEED.

Merriam Webster is not a scientific or biological dictionary or textbook. We are talking about a scientific process and respiration is not breathing. The picture below should help you.

Lol, you trying to be smart by half, but I do understand your plight, by the way, I never claimed Merriam Webster is a scientific or biological dictionary, while I was clear on the use of general terms in my definition of respiration, but you know, since you are a biochemist, English seems to be very difficult for you to understand, the pathways seems to be inhibiting the level of your comprehension!

The laughable thing about you is that all these stories had already been captured in my simple analogy; I am only asking you for the source of oxygen for man’s respiration, and not what is needed and what is not! Do we breathe in air?! Is air the source of the oxygen for respiration?! Are there other gases in air?! Why it is that only oxygen is needed while we take in all the available gases?!

By the way, like the source of Adam (AS), the earth was used “WHOLLY”, so also man uses air “WHOLLY”….But what is NEEDED for creation, is what can be found in present day man, just as only oxygen is NEEDED for respiration!

Oya argue, mr biochemist!

PS: This is from the site you posted the above definition:

“Aerobic respiration

Glucose and oxygen react together in cells to produce carbon dioxide and water and releases energy. The reaction is called aerobic respiration because oxygen from the AIR is needed for it to work.”

Akin1212:


Are you finding simple things so hard to comprehend?

I think you need to read and understand and then sit to comprehend what was written.

I did not agree that air and earth are in the same column as regards your analogy in this argument. Your analogy is totally and completely wrong. I am faulting you placing air and earth in the same column based on what was stated in the Qur'an and science.
You may need glasses and an extra brain to read what I write. Your struggle make this analogy work is hilarious. You cannot change facts.

We dont need air to respirate, humans use air but we don't need it. We need oxygen. How is that hard to fathom? Lwkmd

I apologize for misrepresenting your post, it was a honest mistake; I thought you were already thinking right, but alas!

I am certain I explicitly pointed out the correlation between earth and air, and what my arguments were. That you want to fault my analogy based on your own interpretation of 'facts' is absolutely ridiculous...

First and foremost, I never said we use air for respiration, when I proposed my analogy; I was specific about the use of oxygen and for what purpose!

Secondly, my analogy is based on the source of what is being used, hence, earth and air should be in the same category, for both comprises of mixtures of different materials! Science acknowledges this facts!

Thirdly, Earth is used, so also air is used, and what is needed is embedded in these two sources!

Akin1212:

Respiration is a process that has testifiable evidence. Creation of a man from Earth is a myth. It's ignorance putting these two things side by side. I am just amused you see yourself as an intelligent animal/human and still can't realize these little things.

There is no KNOWLEDGE on the creation of Adam, there are however myths and lies written on that
There is no book that has ever described the process of the creation of Adam.

Lol, what else can you say except denials, but I am not here to tell you to believe in creation, I know you guys better than that, but you are here arguing about process of creation you know nothing about, but want to pontificate?!

You should first get a good grasp of what analogy is and how it is applied accordingly, that you do not believe in creation or it is a myth is absolutely insignificant to the discussion at hand. My analogy brings to fore what is known to you, to explain the possible similarities to what you clearly are ignorant of!

Intelligence is not only about regurgitating things already explained by others but the ability to synthesize peculiar thoughts from what is known to understand the complex and the unknown…I deal with “thinking about thinking”, I am way ahead of the likes of you!

Akin1212:

Not only oxygen is used in respiration. Sulfur and Nitrogen too can be used in respiration. But humans only use Oxygen and respiration is not only seen in humans. However respiration is the same process and gives the same product in all life forms. So, respiration is respiration.

That is why your analogy is silly.

Of course, respiration is respiration, even though there are different types, the fact that different organism can respire anaerobically; gives credence to my position and analogy. It is part of complexity of life, humans use oxygen out of the myriad of other possibilities available in air, likewise, plants for example, make use of carbon dioxide rather than oxygen...But again, we are talking about humans here!

Akin1212:

I am not arguing that what can be used is based on abundance, I am saying the Qur'an said that earth was used. Wholly.

You saying a part was used and the others were not is trying to justify your narrative. It's not written as such in the Qur'an.

Lol, does the earth not contain what we are made up of? Does air not contain oxygen for respiration? Does human respiration need other gases in air? Why do we have to breathe in the air wholly?

By the way, I never said a part of earth was used; perhaps you should take your own advice as you've posted above!

Akin1212:

Don't even make where humans get oxygen for respiration an argument. The logic has failed already. Since humans can respire in the absence of air, it's done. Can man be created in the absence of earth? No I guess. Because there is no such process as creation of man from Earth.

It is your logic that is failing you, the reason you can’t answer a simple question oga biochemist! Where do humans get oxygen for respiration from?!

Akin1212:

The only place we are getting to is where you'll realize that man was not created from Earth. And I would be willing to school you on the process of abiogenesis.

When we die, we don't return to earth. It's time you grow up from that nonsense.

This is hilarious, school me on abiogenesis?! What is even your area of specialty in the field of biochemistry?!

Akin1212:

Life is too complex, I agree. And that was why the Qur'an and the Bible failed woefully at their attempt to explain what life was made of and how life came to be. Such simple books cannot explain life.

I have studied biochemistry, which is the study of life at the molecular level. You have not, there's no biochemistry in the Qur'an , just some wrong guesses from an illiterate.

You are correct bro, you know nothing when life is concerned.

And here it, that pride which is only expressed as a result of small, tiny knowledge you think you have...You have studied biochemistry to what level if I may ask? You don't know me, nor do you know my background, but can write that I haven't studied biochemistry?! As the saying goes, “na empty korodom dey make noise pass...”

The Qur'an is not Harpers or Lehniger, you may read my response to tr.ue2god in my previous post...

Me I no sabi anything o. But you wey sabi, what do you even know about life?! Can you bring the dead back to life?!