tintingz:
What caused the big bang is another theory.

Of course, it is another theory or theories which are not backed by any empircal evidence, thus they are speculations, nay, fairy tales!

tintingz:

That the expansion of the universe which is the big bang happened can be observe by observing the expansion of the universe itself leading to a density point (gravitational singularity).

What?! This is a mockery of the theory, you cannot claim the big bang that happened about 14 billion years ago is what is being observed today! How is the present observable expansion lead to gravitational singularity?

tintingz:

The problem you have in your fairy book is how can Adam be observe that he existed? What archaeological, anthropology, paleontology, geology evidence support the existence of Adam?

Sorry, we are not talking about Adam here, but anyways, whether you believe in evolution or creation, we had first fully formed human ancestors, else we wouldn't be here...

tintingz:

Between Big Bang/Evolution and 6 days creation in the Quran which is close to fact to you?

To me, after reflecting on different verses of the Qur'an stating that the concept of time is different, especially when you consider that even on earth, different countries experience time differently, not to mention other planets in and outside of our galaxy, then 6 days may not translate to 6 days on our planet earth!

tintingz:

If the law of "something come from nothing" is false like the Quran said, is the same law/question not apply to Allah? If Allah came from Nothing, does that make the Quran statement false? Logic is logic, Allah can't eat is cake and have it too.

Actually, philosophically and scientifically speaking, something cannot come from nothing, which is a major problem for you people that deny a creator of the universe, and hide under ignorance!

Allah (SWT) asked you questions, did you come from nothing? Did you create yourself or were you the creator of the universe? All these questions are yet to be answered by science you so much believe in. Allah then said you are clearly uncertain, because you keep jumping from one theory to another, or keep tweaking a theory to accommodate new findings but even at that, you are still clueless!

Allah (SWT ) is not created, so saying Allah came from nothing is redundant, Allah is eternal, has no begining and has no end, and there is nothing comparable to Him! That is what is stated in the Qur'an!

tintingz:
Sino, this is what I posted in my previous post.

Scientists imagine what they observe not santa or fairies!

The universe can be observed, this made scientists to imagine what could cause the universe resulting to different theories, anybody can imagine anything outside the universe be it unicorns flying around.

We know NOTHING what's outside the universe for now.
https://www.nairaland.com/4290485/non-muslims-ask-created-allaah/2#64350513

I can remember I answered you, but you feel like continuing the straw-man argument to be relevant.

And I clearly stated that if it was observable, then it wouldn't be imagined, and no need for extrapolations and speculations! Why are you contradicting yourself?! Science cannot observe what caused the universe (because it is unknown to science), so these "theories" which cannot be observed are at par with santa or fairies! Simple!

“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” (Quran 52:35-36)

tintingz:
SMH.

The big bang can be observe through measurements, big bang is not an explosion state like bomb explosion but expansion, that's the problem you're having, you're depicting big bang as an explosion state. Big Bang was not observed when universe started expanding, no living humans exist then, but it's observed that it happened and how it happened.

The big bang is when the universe started expanding.

* Hubble law

Hubble's law is the name for the observation in physical cosmology that:

1. Objects observed in deep space - extragalactic space, 10 megaparsecs (Mpc) or more - are found to have a red shift, interpreted as a relative velocity away from Earth;

2. This Doppler shift-measured velocity, of various galaxies receding from the Earth, is approximately proportional to their distance from the Earth for galaxies up to a few hundred megaparsecs away.

Hubble's law is considered the first observational basis for the expansion of the universe and today serves as one of the pieces of evidence most often cited in support of the Big Bang model. The motion of astronomical objects due solely to this expansion is known as the Hubble flow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble%27s_law

* Big Bang

The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution. The model describes how the universe expanded from a very high-density and high-temperature state, and offers a comprehensive explanation for a broad range of phenomena, including the abundance of light elements, the cosmic microwave background (CMB), large scale structure and Hubble's law.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

The emboldened is how the Big Bang was observed.

The big bang is still the model/theory used by all scientists to explain the expansion of the universe, if there is any other one kindly state it.

First, you do not understand what you are reading and quoting at all! I never said the big bang was an explosion like a bomb! Seriously, repeating that is just showing your lack of knowledge.

From your two quotes, what was observed and measured was the resultant effects of the big bang! If science tells you that this big bang occurred 14 billion years ago, does that not mean it started at a point? "The universe started expanding from a high-density, high-temperature state" was this state observed or observable?! You said it yourself, "the big bang was when the expansion started", and no scientist can observe this, it is therefore pure speculation and imagination! Extrapolation of what is observed (not the big bang) backward! Even from the wiki link, it is stated that "The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation" So what are you saying?! You didn't understand my question?!

Now to further show how you had been arguing blindly throughout this thread, can you tell us what started this big bang? I mean, what caused this expansion? Can cosmologist and quantum physicists explain this?! And according to you, since we do not know what caused the big bang other than mere speculations, well then, it is sure a fairy tale, a big fallacy right?!

tintingz:
Is it observable or not?

I asked questions you didn't answer, you mentioned a law instead, and now you are asking me the same question I asked you? Seriously?!

State Hubble's law and use it to answer my questions...

Did science say the big bang was observed or observable? According to Hubble's law, was the big bang measured?! If yes, how?

tintingz:
Hubble's law

Lol! I thought as much, continue in your ignorance!

tintingz:
You analogy are flawed, just accept it.

Theory in science
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

You said big bang can't be observed, why then it's a theory in science?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Do you know why? Because it can be measured.

Just go and rest my brother.

Did science say big bang was observed or observable? What was measured? The big bang? How?!

^^^
I have had enough of your "reasoning"! You do not understand what and how analogies are being used and applied, you know nothing about the "theories" you believe which keeps changing, you do not even understand what is observable about the universe and what is empirical evidence in science.

Enjoy your ignorance, after all, your favorite line is "science does not know yet..."

tintingz:
You dont even understand your analogy.

Man and computer are already limited and bound to this universe because they contain matter and energy and also depends on time and space.

Now use this for God who is claim to be outside the universe.

You do not understand what an analogy is and how to apply them in explaining concepts and ideas, that is one of your problem, you are a one way traffic, very parochial in the use of your brain!

Man invented the computer, using materials already available to him, including his brain, but still, man is quite distinct from the computer, and it is absolutely ridiculous to compare man and the computer, using the processes and methods of the computer! Does the computer have consciousness? Is the computer a biological entity?! Mr. reason, what you put up there is talking about Z when I am talking about A. If you do not have the capacities to respond to my queries accordingly, don't bring up unrelated issues not relevant to the questions!

tintingz:

There are many theories about the universe, we dont know yet if the universe has a beginning, infinite or has outside, keep your finite causality fallacy to yourself, its not a fact.

No, let me correct you here, there are many speculations about the origin of the universe, a recent speculation is that the universe had no begining, putting previous speculations such as big bang, singularity, dark matter etc. into disarray!

“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” (Quran 52:35-36)

You will always not know yet! Ignorance is bliss isn't it?!

tintingz:

Please how is gravity observe and measured, can you see gravity?

Gravity was observed and was empirically tested! Again, if it is observable, then it wouldn't be imagined! Your so called theories are based on imaginations, there is no observable or empirical evidence, just mere speculations and interesting imaginations of the human mind!

tintingz:

The universe can be calculated and measured, this is how theories were developed, this what we call observation in physics and cosmology.

Lol, "we"?! You are now a physicist and a cosmologist?! Wow! tell me what I don't know Why not tell me how dark matter was observed or the big bang?! Did you guys go back in time?! Oh sorry, there is a new theory on the block, the universe had no beginning! Based on what empirical evidence?! This is Ridiculousness!

tintingz:

We know nothing about what is outside the universe yet is different from there is nothing outside, anything can be outside the universe be it flying unicorns or a giant teapot.

Whatever you want to believe is none of my business, ignorance is bliss isn't it?!

tintingz:

A vacuum contains energy, it is linked to the universe, what then is outside?

Ok for argument sake, quantum vacuum is something with the lowest energy, how is it link to Allah or any God?

You were the one that claimed quantum vacuum is nothing, well science (physics) has proved that it can't be nothing, it is indeed something. So when next you want to claim that something is nothing, you should think twice. Allah (SWT) is the creator of the quantum vacuum, that is the link!

tintingz:

You dont get.

A powerful all knowing God should know the future, know what humans will need without us doing the solution.

# Divine Law : A powerful perfect all knowing God should know what will become of humans in the future before creation e.g This God should know the women feminine body will cause trouble to man, he should create humans in more perfect form instead of commanding the women folks to wear hijab for his mistakes, something like they are apologizing for being feminine.

Do humans like it when they spend money to take a flight or the risk in it, why cant an all knowing God give humans wings to fly?

Why does a perfect all knowing God killed homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah when he knows the future?

# Evolution: A perfect God should have created humans perfectly instead of modifying itself (evolution).

And at bolded it shows humans doesn't need a God for answers, that God is impotent.

So these are your problems that makes you deny your creator?! You want to fly right? Why not blame evolution that gave you the intelligence to build a plane rather than make you a bird?! Why not blame the evolution that made you have morals?! Why not blame evolution that made you know that a female and a male needs to copulate to reproduce and not same sex?! Who was directing these evolutionary trend?! You should be mad at evolution and not God, you don't believe in God, but you believe in evolution. Why would evolution make these "mistakes"?! Was it trying out what it thought was best for humans or was it just a gamble?! Why was there even evolution in the first place?! What was the purpose of evolution?! Why did evolution make you intelligent instead of being dumb like a goat?!

tintingz:

So your God love it when innocent children die in the hands of natural disasters, even his pious worshipers that want to live long are killed by natural disasters, so why the hell does a God create natural disasters? Is he malevolent?

They had to die because God has better plans for them, that is why there is paradise silly! To the religious people, this world is not the final abode, we are just passing through and we would be tested, so whatever happens, is part of the difficulties/test that we encounter on this journey. We know our purpose, we know where we are coming from and where we are going to, we know we did not just happen by randomness or came from nothingness!

tintingz:

They are not same but they are bound to same thing, that makes man not all powerful, unlimited, perfect.

I never claimed that man is unlimited, just wanted you to know that there are distinctions between the creator and the creation! They are not bound to the same thing, a computer requires electricity to function while man does not require such. Of course they are all bound to the laws of the physical world/universe because they both exist within this world and the universe! Allah/God is not within this universe, so Allah/God cannot be bound by the laws of this universe, He created these laws!

tintingz:

Lol, Why does Allah that you claim to be outside the universe more concern about a tiny dust earth and not only that, he took his time to be active in some deserted place in the ancient middle east to reveal some fairy books out of necessity because people are going astray. Is this God not controlled by time?

We are the only "intelligent" being on this planet and as far as science knows, this universe! Coincidence?! The Originator of all has the prerogative to communicate with us the way he wants, asking why makes you sound stupid, you don't even have a say with regards to when you were born or what will happen to you tomorrow, yet want to question why the messages were concentrated in ancient middle east?! God is the creator of time, he chooses when and where to reveal his messages.

tintingz:

Google is your friend

No, google is not my friend, we are not in good terms!

tintingz:

No fault in it, he reference his statement to a book by Lawrence Krauss a physicist, Dawkins said he is not a physicist.

Of course Dawkins is not a physicist, and evidently, giving characteristics to nothing makes you sound and look ridiculous!

tintingz:

Were you not the one that gave this author and book analogy using the argument "something must cause something?" dont start red herring.

See your logic at bolded, you want to eat your cake and have it too. You are not disputing the questioning yet it is not relevant because you cant answer it, you are afraid this will destroy your God, you have already trap your God, dont worry.

I had answered the question severally, God was not caused, God exist outside the universe, you can only observe the universe and the laws within it. You had also stated that science does not know what is outside the universe, so why are you adamant on knowing the cause before you believe?! Even scientist have made claims that laws of physics may not have been applicable at some point in the "beginning" of the universe...It is sheer stupidity to claim there is no creator of the observable intelligence within this universe because we do not know what caused the creator...

tintingz:

Lol, i know who the inventor of iphone is and where he lived, his parents, family because i want to know about who invented this devise and even if i dont want to know about who this inventor is that does not negate the question of where he came from, we can simply see the answers on google, we already know he has a parent, he came from something, he learned computing. This is just the logic!

Everything in this universe contain matter and energy be it humans or the computer, if a God created this universe he must have matter and energy to do so. And the same laws applies that we don't know if there's any erntity like God/s, unicorns, fairies, aliens/UFOs(Extraterrestrial) outside the universe and same law that said something must cause something applies to them.

But without google or knowing these people, you cannot deny that the Iphone was invented! Man is more than 1 billion times complex than the Iphone, so you say it had no designer?! Is that scientifically possible?! How?!

Same laws cannot apply to what is outside of the universe until you can prove it! Even here on earth, same laws does not apply the same way when you go out of earth, so why making statements you cannot prove?! I do not say God is nothing, I said God is distinct from his creation,just as the computer and Iphone is distinct from the humans that invented them! God is the source of everything, matter and energy! When you think/imagine how vast and overwhelming this universe is, then you can't help but know that the creator would definitely be greater!

Nice! Whenever I see a library, I would long to have one in my house, but again, all this "free" PDF downloads don spoil me finish! I need to start buying hard-copy books again this year!

tintingz:
Man reason with "time", intervene when "necessary", plan when to intervene etc, these are all bound/limited/eslave to these our time and space. Infact time is now superior than him because he can't do without it.

And this explains how man is limited to the computer?! By stating that time is superior?! Do you even read your response before posting?!

tintingz:

Can you prove there is something outside the universe?

That I have done, the fact that there is no reasonable explanation for the emergence of the universe and life other than finite causality!

tintingz:

Scientists imagine what they observe not santa or fairies!

The universe can be observed, this made scientists to imagine what could cause the universe resulting to different theories, anybody can imagine anything outside the universe be it unicorns flying around.

We know NOTHING what's outside the universe for now.

You are contradicting yourself, if they can observe it, then they don't need to imagine it! Where does the theories come from if not from imaginations?! Do you think big bang and dark matter are observable?! I guess these are scientists fairy tale right?!

We know nothing about what is outside the universe doesn't equate to there is nothing outside the universe scientifically speaking!

tintingz:

What energy does quantum vacuum contain and how does it link to Allah?

I never linked quantum vacuum or any energy to Allah, you said there is nothing outside the universe, and I presented an analogy to correct your folly, using quantum vacuum. Again, that scientist can't tell you what is outside the universe does not mean there is nothing, scientist in the past would have said they knew nothing about what is in a quantum vacuum decades ago, but now know that it isn't NOTHING!

tintingz:

A perfect all-knowing creator shouldn't modify his creation that he claim to be perfect, a perfect creator should know what his creation need e.g I wish humans could fly instead of using years to invent planes and spend money just to fly one.

Lol, you that didn't even know when you were born now wants to make demands (wishes)?! You had brought this silly argument before, which modifications are you talking about sef?! DID THE QUR'AN SAY ALLAH ASKED YOU TO GO FOR AN UPGRADE?! DID MAN NOT USE HIS BRAIN, EYES TO OBSERVE FLIGHT ANIMALS TO INVENT A PLANE?! IS THAT MODIFICATION OF A HUMAN TO YOU?!

tintingz:

Natural disasters is not needed, a perfect creator should know this.

Because you want to stay in this world forever right?! To you, this is the best you can get, but unfortunately for you, you age, you loose the capacity to enjoy anything once you reach old age, and then you die! Science cannot change that, your atheism doesn't it make it go away either! Whine all you want, you are still insignificant in the scheme of things!

tintingz:

If a computer is bound to time and the inventor is bound to time, please who is superior here? Time yes?

The question is, is man and the computer he invented the same even if they share similar characteristics?!

tintingz:

An almighty God shouldn't be controlled by time.

This is laughable, what does time do to God?! How is God being controlled by time?!

tintingz:

How many theories are yet to be fact about the universe?

Go and read about cyclic universe model.

You are the expert na, educate me please!

tintingz:

Do you still believe Allah is the only mysterious entity?

Go on YouTube or I help you with it.

I was only borrowing Richard Dawkins' statement, do you find fault in it?! I'll rather you post what you learnt from the youtube video, or is that too much to ask?!

tintingz:

The author origin requires where it comes from, how it came to be, it need to be questioned following the premise argument of something must cause something. Stop being irrational here, it's sickening!

A book can only come from a physical being of this our natural world or have you seen any book written by an invisible entity? Then I wonder why Allah didn't do that for the Quran.

Do you know what is sickening, having to read your half-baked arguments, coupled with inane and illogical analogies...

I am not disputing questioning where the author comes from, and whether it is a physical being or not, because they are irrelevant, you don't need answers to these questions before you know without doubt that a book has an author! The question still remains, would you deny the author because you do not know his/her origin?! Similarly, you do not need to be questioning the origin of the inventor of your phone before you know that it was invented, in this universe, what we know for sure is that something can never come from nothing! So the existence of the universe and life points to a creator. All the laws of physics, your DNA, the regulations of the weather, and so on, points to the fact that they came to be from something which is greater than the universe. Since you have stated above that science doesn't know what is outside the universe, I wonder why you are asking for the origin of what I say is outside of the universe?! Do you think same laws applies outside the universe?! Does the computer function like the biological systems of humans that created (invented) it?!

tintingz:
Did you read my post well? you forgot the "yet" i added there?

here what i posted.

What exist outside the universe cannot interven in this universe and if it does it/he/she has limit himself/herself to this universe, we don't know what's outside the universe yet and we can't imagine what's outside the universe, meaning it's NOTHING to us!

"Yet" there means now, in the future science may give answers to everything or not, but right now we dont know for sure what is outside the universe, it is nothing to our imagination.

How will man intervening in the operations of the computer limit him to that computer?! THINK!

Your "yet" does not give you the affirmation that what is outside the universe is nothing! That you do not know or not sure what is outside the universe does not mean there is nothing, how many times have we thought there was nothing, and found something?! We can actually imagine anything we want, and that is what brings about scientific discoveries! It was by imagination that Kekule brought about the structure of the benzene ring, which was not known as at the time he postulated it!

tintingz:

Quantum vacuum contains lowest energy, does Allah has lowest energy? does Allah function like the particles? Like i said you're trying to turn Allah into another thing. Using deist argument will ridicule your Allah.

I am about to understand more about quantum vacuum, starting from Lawrence Krauss book(A Universe from nothing).

What are you talking about?! This is just straw man! Go back and read my post properly.

tintingz:

Is this computer perfect?

What has perfection got to do with separating a creator and his creation?!

tintingz:

If an inventor sit, talk, get angry, feel emotional, loving, partial, reason, plan e.t.c and the computer posses these characteristics, it shows the inventor is limited and bound to this, there is an external source for this. Even the bible confesses God made man in his own image. This is why it is called a personal God(anthropomorphic).

In your elevated reasoning, because a computer has some characteristics as humans, then humans are bound and limited to a computer?! In other words, humans are the same as computers?! Again does this make sense?!

I had already told you that God is distinct from the creation, even if we share some characteristics! Just like humans are distinct from their creation (inventions)

tintingz:

SMH, There is no first cause or what came first in cyclic model.

And the cyclic model is fact?! Why not explain how the cyclic model brought about life?!

tintingz:

The universe is also something mysterious, Leprechaun, Olorun, Odin, FSM, Brahma, Santa, Unicorn, Fairies, invisible giant teapot are all something mysterious.

Infact since Allah is part of 'something' mysterious then there is a higher mysterious cause, something must cause something right?

Lol! I know this is where wanted to go, but that had already been trashed, scroll back up and read!

tintingz:

Have you watched the full video?

Nope! You can fill me in...

tintingz:

How many times will i answer this?

An author of a book is a physical being which i have recognized, now what cause this author is what you are yet to tell me. Please stop dodging this question.

Okay, i think we are making progress, but you are the one dodging the questions, and I would repeat, does the author's origin (what caused the author) be a yardstick to determine (believe) that there is an author?! I am not asking you if the author must be a physical being or not! If I told you that a book does not have an author because I do not know what caused the author in the first instance, would that be reasonable?!

tintingz:
This is pleading.

What exist outside the universe cannot interven in this universe and if it does it/he/she has limit himself/herself to this universe, we don't know what's outside the universe yet and we can't imagine what's outside the universe, meaning it's NOTHING to us!

It is silly of you to say since we do not know what is outside the universe, then it is nothing, when in the same breath, you claim science is progressive and would give answers to everything! To help you understand your folly, quantum vacuum which is said to be "nothing" is said to contain unseen particles which does influence the physical realm, a recent study has claimed to be able to observe the fluctuations of this "nothingness" albeit needs corroboration. You sure are very confused, and I dare say, if this level of reasoning was what led you to atheism, then you have a bigger problem to resolve, instead of trying to disprove God's existence!

tintingz:

But your God created matter and energy right, where did that come from? Your God knows the future, reason, plan etc are all these not bound and eslave to time? Time only exist in this universe so your God is eslave to this universe. Your perfect God even has the TIME to give divine laws for what he created.

If the creator is not part of everything, then...

* He's Nothing

* Everything doesn't have a creator or a cause e.g Fairies, Olorun, Odin, Brahma, Unicorn, FSM, Allah etc.

Do you know that the invention of man called computer operates in binary?! It uses electric impulses to represent 1 and 0 which man was able to create solely for the computer, is man therefore enslaved to 1 and 0s?! Can we say man must also operate as a computer even though the computer does carry out similar logical task and exhibits some human characteristics?! does this make sense to you?! Bro, use your brain na, these things are basic, you don't need to claim one logic or higher reasoning, they are very simple to comprehend and that is why the concept of God is universal!

tintingz:

A-Z is just an example of it, I can use any other form.

The cyclic model is part of physics and cosmological theory.

You have not answered my questions!

tintingz:

Actually I've watched the full video, Dawkins was not the joke.

Is Allah something or nothing?

Allah (SWT) is something "mysterious"

Are you sure you got the joke in the first instance?!

tintingz:

I responded then that I've no problem with existing of an author(as long as it's proven) the problem you're yet to accept or tell me is, what cause/move this author to exist and write?

Please answer and let move on.

What other prove do you want when you have seen the book?! Is the book not enough to conclude that there is an author?!

Answer this and we will definitely move on!

tintingz:
You and your fellows are the ones that want to eat your cake and have it too.

Simple logic is a problem!

You claiming "Everything must have a cause" is an infinite regression itself, a cycle model. If Z is the end then what could force to cause the beginning(A) if not Z? Or does 'A' comes from nothing?

So why are you trying to single out or smuggle out Allah? Is he the only imaginary entity? Is he not part of everything? You once use the analogy of an author and a book and I asked who caused the author, you said that is not relevant, you see your logic and your eating cake having it too?

The OP said ad Infinitum is irrational and impossible yet Allah is infinite, please who is eating his cake and having it too?

You lots should do better, maybe Albaqir should chip in, I think this is the right thread.

Mr. Logic and reasoning, examples were presented for you to understand the absurdity of infinite regress, but you are not willing to pay adequate attention so you may learn.

Anyways, what we have learnt from different academic studies as well as commonsense, about the existence of the universe including life is that everything must have a cause. Everything that is existing in this universe and the universe. What exist outside the universe and not dependent on the universe cannot be placed and analysed with the parameters that operates within the universe, it is very illogical and irrational to do this. So when we say everything must have a cause, the creator is not part of everything! God says : "God is independent of (all) creation." ( Q3:97)

I had told you to keep this your inane cyclic stuff to yourself, I wonder where you got it from. If Z brought about A? Which came first? Z or A? How do you use this to explain the universe and how life came into existence?

By the way, I thought you already know that nothing is indeed something or do you need a reminder from Richard Dawkins?

I know you did not get my Author and book theory, and I did ask you, would you deny that a book has an author because you do not know the author's origin? Answer this and we would know whether you are one with reason or not.

tbaba1234:


This guy knows very little which makes his case even worse. I mean, there are a few atheists that can even make decent arguments but look at how he tied a simple rational argument of finite causality to 'God of the gaps'..

He does not even know what 'God of the gaps' means.

I have often wondered if it would take an individual to study loads of scientific jargon before such can be an atheist...I know he doesn't have a science background, but this atheism is really giving him a lot of work to do and for what benefits?! I am at a loss!

I had to advise him at a point in time to understand the concepts of what he wants to use as an argument before bringing it up....

tintingz:
You have some problem in your post.

I use to think you're one of the few rational people in this section but you disappoint me day by day.

# First of all, you already gave an assumption and fallacious statement that we can't know everything, you are making use of "god of the gaps" as your evidence of god, now the question is, what will happen when science finally have answers to everything around us(closing all gaps) and see them as natural phenomenon, what then will happen to your God(Allah)?

# Humans have limit in knowledge and we evolve in our knowledge capacity, now answer this for Allah, why did Allah the all-powerful and all-knowing need modifying his creations after creating them(divine laws) or left his creations to modify themselves(evolution)?

# Between Science and Allah who is "just" to the title "all-knowing"?

Bro, Science and scientists would have answers to everything when?!

The natural phenomena that had been explained give more credence to the fact that there is a super intelligent designer (God), or what do you think of a DNA with over 3 billion base pairs containing information that makes you only you?! Even the quantum vacuum has energy, the question is where did this energy come from putting the first law of thermodynamics into consideration?!

I can go on and on, but if your approach is still what it is, you are not going to see the truth...

By the way, my evidence for there being a God is not about gaps, but the fact that we exist, and it is impossible that we came to existence by chance!

tbaba1234:
The absurdity of an infinite regress

...........

This is the irrationality of atheism.

Not only absurdity and irrationality, but also wanton irresponsibility! Atheists want to eat their cakes and have it, what would an infinite regress amount to, when it is certain that there is a end, especially for life! These are facts, and one needs not understand scientific jargon to appreciate the truth that this universe and all that exist within it were created, and there can be only one creator!

Of course, the question who created God can only be inspired from a mind devoid of divine light, as well as a mind that fails to reflect and apply proper reasoning.

First of all, the question doesn’t give any insight to help any believer perform his religious obligations to the creator, and equally does not help the non-believer in disproving the existence of this God.

The latter whom the OP addresses would always bring irrelevancies to establish his non-believe, forgetting he in most cases hold on to ideas and speculations of men that have yet to be substantiated e.g. origin of the universe à la quantum vacuum fluctuations, dark matter etc.…While they succumb to stating lack of knowing or knowledge after they might have ostensibly claim with gusto how there is no God for “lack of evidence” but gleefully read loads and loads of scientific speculations and assumptions about the universe and the origin of life (and believing them to be the “gospel” truth), as it is well known, they keep singing different tunes with each "groundbreaking" discoveries.

Allah (SWT) describes these people when He says: Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” (Q 52:35-36)

At the end of the day, “we do not know” “something mysterious” etc. and the funniest being “scientist are still working on unraveling…” are the final statements of these non-believers. They are uncertain, and one wonders how long it would take these scientists to answer all of the questions about this life and the universe, as the saying goes, time would tell, unfortunately, we don't have such luxury of enough time….

Be that as it may, as pointed out earlier with regards the lack of appropriate reasoning which beclouds the mind of non-believers leading them to ask irrelevant questions such as who created God, one would only need to first understand the creator and the characteristics of this creator. As humans who created (invented) the computer, and having the superior intelligence that what is created cannot have same origin and characteristics as the creator, thus it would be foolhardy for anyone to think that the creation of a computer is the same as that of the creator of the computer. That is, at best, using this reasoning, we can only conclude that the creator of the universe and life would be nothing like the creation (including origin if there is such possibility, which isn’t, I must emphasize…)

Looking at how extensive the universe is, coupled with the complexities that cannot even be elucidated still, wouldn’t it be "commonsensical" to realize that the creator of all this would be far greater than what He had created?! So how would we the creation seek to know the origin of the creator when we are still overwhelmed by the magnificence of the creation including ourselves the questioner?!

Well, the creator knew the creation and gave what would suffice, by that, I mean what is necessary for the intelligent mind to comprehend and release man from his self-inflicted doubts about who the creator is…

Allah (SWT) says:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
(Q112:1-4)

Allah (God) is one, and has no equivalent (there is nothing like him), he doesn’t reproduce, and was never born (i.e no origin)…That the universe and life as we know it came from a source (God) that has always been and will always be is the only reasonable explanation for everything, else, everything would have no meaning at all or would never even exist to begin with!

AgentOfAllah:

Quantum vacuum is not nothing, nor does it have zero energy. You're missing a word between zero and energy; point. Zero point energy is not zero energy, it is just the lowest possible energy state of a system. In the case of vacuum, it is the smallest energy by which virtual particles pop in and out of existence.


Vacuum is by no means nothing. In fact, it may very well be everything! Conceptually speaking, everything that exists is just a unique flavour of energertic expressions (waves, basically) smeared out in all of space and time. Think about this for a second! There is a non-zero probability that an extension of you, your wave function, is occupying that thing in space which we refer to as vacuum. This is aside from the other particles that pop in and out of existence at will. So what then is the definition of nothing?

Many thanks for your explanation, so in essence, you are saying a quantum vaccum is something buzzing with particles having energy, hence it is a folly to claim that a quantum vaccum is nothing?

AgentOfAllah:
For some reason I didn't get notified of your mentions Tintingz. But yes, your argument about nothing is pretty much accurate. I know of no possible to conceive of "nothing", so I think it is pure folly to even talk about the characteristics of nothing, and what can come of it.

Can you please enlighten me on how a quantum vacuum is nothing because it has zero energy?! And please also elucidate,as a physicist (I am assuming you are one), is it possible to say a vacuum is nothing?!

Demmzy15:
Mods shouldn't have pushed this guy's thread to frontpage

I agree with you, and I also would have thought that he is to be perpetually banned! He grossly misrepresents Islam and Muslims, he is ignorant and doesn't know...

To the topic, the fatwa posted by the op doesn't equate to the understanding presented by the poster, Arabic is a language chosen by Allah (SWT) doesn't restrict the meaning and interpretation of Islam to Arabic! How would we even understand Allah's names and attributes if we do not translate it to our own native language?! Allah (SWT) he the all Knowing and All Hearing, there is not language which is strange to Him, and Allah (SWT) sent messengers to different tribes speaking their native language! Below is an excerpt from a paper titled "One God, Many Names".

"Around 1906, a European anthropologist studied the Shilluk, one of these Nilotic tribes, and once asked a six-year old boy from the tribe who had created him. Without hesitation, the little boy answered, “Dywok (God) created me.” The anthropologist pressed further, asking what Dywok was like and where he came from. With childlike self-assurance, the boy quickly replied that he did not know, but his father surely would. To his astonishment, neither his father nor immediate kin had an answer, but the child kept inquiring until he finally brought the question before his tribal elders. They replied:

"Dywok, we only know that he exists. We know he made the sky that you see above, the stars, all the animals, and even people—both black and white—but who Dywok actually is, no one in Shilluk can say. For no one has seen him. What we know is this: Dywok is there and made everything. Even if you cannot see him, yet he is there…like the breeze that blows. Even if no one can see the breeze, yet it blows. No one has doubts about that."

The micro-religions are filled with telling names of God. “Creator” and “Maker” are virtually universa[/b]l. Native Americans had many names for God. The Cheyenne called him [b]“Creator of the universe” and “Lord of the entire heaven and earth.” The Californian Maidu called him “Ruler of the world.” The Fox called him “the Guide” and “the Good Spirit.” The Lenape called him “Our Creator,” “You to whom we pray,” “Pure Spirit,” and “You to whom we belong.” Some South African Bushmen and the pygmies of Gabon called him “the Lord of all things.” The Siberian Samoyeds knew him as “the Creator of life.” The Ainu of Japan called him “the Divine Maker of the worlds,” “the Divine Lord of heaven,” “the Inspirer,” and “the Protector.” The Wirdyuri of Australia called him “the Eternal,” and several Aboriginal tribes designated him as “the Great Builder” and “the Great Maker,” although certain Aborigines and African Bushmen held the Creator’s name to be inviolable (taboo) and imparted it only to adult male initiates, while concealing it from women, children, and outsiders.

Ancient civilizations also bear witness to a primordial knowledge of the One. Although the pharaonic Egyptians were highly polytheistic, their language contained abundant names and attributions for the Supreme Being distinct from the personified gods of their pantheon. Ancient Egyptian was replete with seemingly endless synonyms for God (Neter, Sha‘, Khabkhab, ¤ep^ep, Shesa, Sedga, Saj, Nethraj, Nekhbaj, Khetraj, Itnuw, and so forth). There were names for “the Creator” (Kewen, Kun, Ne^ef), “Creation’s God” (Nebirut), and “the Giver of forms” (Nebi). They invoked “the High God” (Neter ‘A), “the Lord” (Nebu), “the Divinity from preexistence” (Nun, ¤a^u), “the Divinely Merciful” (¤etefi), “the Divine Destroyer” (¤etem), “the God of truth and balance” (Sema Ma‘at), “the God of humankind” (Itmu), and “the Lord of all” (Neberdher).....
.......................................

God, the Most Beautiful Word in English

The English word “God” is a unique linguistic and theological treasure. It is pre-historic, extending into the Neolithic period and deriving from the proto-Indo- European root gheu (∂), meaning “to invoke” or “to supplicate.” “God” is a past participial construction, meaning “the one who is invoked” or “the one who is called upon.” Like Sanskrit, Persian, Urdu, and most of the European languages, English belongs to the Indo-European family. Our word “God”—proto- Indo-European Ghuto—corresponds linguistically to the Sanskrit past participle hūta (“invoked” or “called upon”), which appears in the Indic Vedas in the divine epithet puruhūta (“much invoked”). Etymologically, “God”—“the one who is invoked in prayer”—is remarkably close in meaning to the Biblical Elo¯ hîm and Alāhā and the Qur’anic Allah, which, as we have seen, convey the sense of “the one who is worshipped.” “God” is also virtually identical in connotation to the Native American Lenape word for the Supreme Being “You to whom we pray.” Supplication and worship are closely interrelated. The Prophet said in a well-known Tradition: “Supplication is the essence of worship.”

The English word “God” in its present form is ancient and pre-Christian, having no hidden or implicit link with Trinitarian theology. Its earliest documented historical use is in the poem Beowulf, the oldest poem in the English language and the earliest European vernacular epic. Beowulf relates pre-Christian events from the early sixth century, a generation or so before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad. Western scholars often find Beowulf paradoxical, because it lacks distinctive Christian references but speaks constantly of God’s grandeur, taking every occasion to praise God and give him thanks. “God” in its present form is the most common word for the Creator in the epic, but the poem also contains scores of other magnificent divine names, which are so deeply embedded in its fabric that they cannot have been interpolated later by medieval monks. Although Beowulf refers to the creation, Adam, Noah, the Flood, the resurrection, judgment, heaven and hell, it contains no references to Mosaic or post-Mosaic Biblical events or to Christ, the crucifixion, Trinitarian dogma, saints, relics, or similar elements that one would expect to find, if there had been any subsequent medieval editing. The poem declares God’s oneness explicitly and extols his wise and merciful governance of the world and its people; it rejects and ridicules paganism as the work of the devil, and the epic’s hero, Beowulf—a brave and mighty but truly humble man of God—engages in constant combat with the diabolical forces of evil and destruction. Not just in its many words for God but in general, the religious vocabulary of Beowulf expresses with exactitude the crux of the spiritual and theological vision which Muslims find so precisely expressed in the Arabic language. Beowulf is a testimony to the English language’s unique richness and should inspire us, as English-speaking Muslims, with a deeper respect for our language and its inherent power to express not only our concept of the divine but the entire repertoire of primordial prophetic teaching."

Source: Dr. Umar Faruq Abd-Allah, One God Many Names, (Nawawi Foundation Paper, 2004)

tbaba1234:


Pseudo-intelligent arguments.. You are wasting your time with this guy. You will know when he is ready to sincerely engage. Right now, he is trying to validate his misguidance.

You no see me see wahala so...But honestly I think he is "troubled" the reason he jumps on religious threads trying too hard to justify his decision...Why would anyone be bothered about another being deceived when he claims to be sure nothing would happen at the end of the day?!

tintingz:
Are you now siding deism and it concept of God to suit your argument? Please go and read about deistic God before you turn Allah to another thing!

You have not provide evidence there is one God.

What is my concept of God?! Do deist believe in the concept of God as being the creator of everything?

tintingz:

This argument is more like a support to deist god and has no link to your personal God.

Lol, this your differentiation and classification is indeed interesting, yep my personal God, I guess this God belongs to only me right?!

tintingz:

Like i said, Quatum vacuum is nothing but not totally nothing, it is something mysterious that is unknown to us for now like the bold statement in your post.

I am not a physicist either like i said previously, The use of Nothing in physicist is not actually mean the nothing we commonly know, a vacuum is not empty as they contain energy but when a vacuum is in lowest energy(zero energy) then it is said to be "nothing", the article you provided never said quatum vacuum is something.

Your first statement was what made people laugh at Dawkins, please just stop, you don't know what you are talking about!

tintingz:

Does your spiritual world contain zero energy or can your spiritual world be studied like scientist are doing? Dont worry when scientists fully undertand how quatum physics work(a natural phenomenon), you will tell us how it is related to your spiritual world.

I am not worried at all. But I am certain that you would come to full understanding, when death comes, what and how the spiritual world works!

tintingz:

Your God is limited to a fairy book, Quantum vacuum is still a progressive study.

If this makes you feel good about your beliefs, no problem!

tintingz:

Oga, if you keep the premise argument that something must cause something, then i will keep asking what causes the creator?

For you to claim to preach reason, you seem not to get a hang of what that word means. The creator cannot be created, for that would defeat the concept of a creator in the first instance, and please, I am talking about the creator of the whole universe and all what is in it, and for your information, the creator is distinct from his creation, the premise that something must cause something, only applies to the creation, not the creator! He is higher above and beyond his creation, and that is why he is called God!

tintingz:

What if Islam got it wrong?

It isn't your problem to solve! I have said God would judge accordingly

tintingz:

Sorry, not all Gods have the wicked heart of throwing people into hell, if there is afterlife i will enter state of Buddhism and reincarnate, easy peezy lemon squeezy!

I wasn't giving you a Buddhist concept of an afterlife, but an Islamic concept of an afterlife which is much in tune with what is obtainable in this world, that is, there are consequences for your actions, you would reap whatever you sow, and that is the law of nature...If our man made laws have rewards and punishments, how on earth do you think afterlife would be nothing more than reincarnation? into what exactly?! And for your information again, Budha was also a creation, he had a father and mother, he is not the creator of the universe, heck, he never claimed he got inspiration from the creator about the afterlife, Buddhist do not even believe in God!

Demmzy15:
The Sango and Zeus he's always screaming about all had fathers, they were born.

Not only were they born, they ate food, had intimate relations with women... If Zeus is the supreme deity, then what are his father and mother?! lesser gods?!

I had expected a reasonable approach in trying to disprove God, but the above is just plain ridiculous!

tintingz:

Yes I've, I modified my previous post.

Here's is it,

I've watched the video, it seems theists don't get what Dawkins was saying about nothing and something, secondly Dawkins is not a physicist but he knows what he's saying and understand his position on nothing = something. The video is just a cut and join from different debates I wonder how this give the full context of what he's saying.

Quantum Vacuum is said to be nothing in physics since it contain zero energy but it's not totally nothing, nothing is about "something" mysterious, that's what Dawkins said, I wonder how it got to do with any god and if it's a god which of the God? This argument is even for deist god.

I'm agnostic when it comes to the begining of the universe, if nothing is something mysterious like Dawkins said then it is unknown and there no way it's linked to personal Gods or any God, it's not a must we assume it a god or gods, it can be anything unknown!

Forget about deist, all religious people are deist (generally speaking)! What we are talking about is whether nothing is something of which Dawkins was shown to be contradicting himself! I have told you that there is only one God, and this God is the originator of the universe!

With regards to quantum vaccum, I am not a physicist, but you should please always try to understand a concept before you bring it up in a discussion. The vaccum is not said to be nothing because it is has zero energy, but rather, it doesn't have any physical matter/particle, it is only represented by zero state energy level to indicate having the lowest possible energy... Anyways,

First of all, let's think of a vacuum in a classical way - as space entirely devoid of matter, with the lowest possible energy. There are no particles there, and nothing to interfere with pure physics.

But a byproduct of one of the most fundamental principles in quantum mechanics, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, states that there's a limit to how much we can know about quantum particles, and as a result, a vacuum isn't empty, it's actually buzzing with its own strange energy, and filled with particle-antiparticle pairs that appear and disappear randomly.

These are more like 'virtual' particles than physical matter, so ordinarily you can't detect them. But although they're invisible, like most things in the quantum world, they subtly influence the real world.

These quantum fluctuations produce randomly fluctuating electric fields that can affect electrons, which is how scientists first indirectly demonstrated their presence back in the 1940s.
Source

Since science is saying "although they are invisible, like most things in the quantom world, they subtly influence the real world" you would believe! But when I say the spiritual world is invisible to man, but does have influence in the real world, you would claim that is a fairy tale.

God cannot be seen, and has no origin, but that we are here and we can see and investigate the astonishing things around us, including this quantum vaccum, only points to the fact that we were created by something higher, which is God.

tintingz:

Why are you denying the "higher cause" of the creator?

If there was a higher cause of the creator, then it means that the creator is also a creation which would give rise to multiple creators which is impossible for us to have this universe and earth existing as we know it! Then it therefore means that the creator of everything cannot be created! As I opined earlier, since we cannot even comprehend the essence of the creator, then it is foolhardy to seek the cause of the creator, to brake it down for you, it is like a nursery school pupil trying to understand quantum mechanics!

tintingz:

You also accept Olorun has children, you also accept Olorun sent Obatala to create the earth with sand, corn and chicken?

Lol, oranges and apples bro, go back and understand my post!

tintingz:

But since you're a Muslim you're definitely going to Christian hell.

Unfortunately for you, Islam had already explained where the Christians and Jews got it wrong, Islam teaches that Moses and Jesus were sent from God, so with regards to the Abrahamic faith, we are all going back to the same God, and God will Judge us accordingly....

tintingz:

No regrets right? You definitely have no regrets being decieved all your life, like some fairy land flowing with milk and honey?

Why would I have regrets?! remember when I am dead, nothing happens, or is there an afterlife in atheism?!

But if there is a possibility of an afterlife, and God which you so much hate and have made some very unpalatable remarks about, would Judge you, then I assure you that not only would you regret, you would have to face the consequences...(And please this is not a threat, it just stating the opposite and plausible occurrence after death)

For me, it is a win-win!

tintingz:
Zeus is still the supreme God in Greek pantheon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus

Whether he has parents or no parents he's still the king of gods in Greek religion.

Sango is part of manifestation of Eledumare, all Orisas are manifestation of Eledumare!

Is Zeus or Sango said to be the creator of the universe, the supreme being?!

tintingz:

So if Allah doesn't have limit why does he hate pork, women hair, Homosexuals, a god that sit on throne like humans?

Allah (SWT) is the creator of everything, including the homosexuals, the pork and the woman hair! All what he created are subject to his will, they can in no way limit his existence or diminish his authority!

tintingz:

Was Allah worship by Arabian pagans or not?

Arab pagans recognized Allah as the supreme God that created all, but they worshiped other gods as a means to Allah, the reason they are called polytheist! Again worshiping the creation, instead of the creator!

tintingz:

And where did I said the manual is for the inventor?

This is what you said:

"The reason Devices comes with manual is because the device is not perfect and the designer himself is not perfect which requires a manual to know how it works and maintain it.

# A perfect device from a perfect designer should be able to invent a device without no manual or guidelines."

Please assist me in understanding, so manuals would be unnecessary if the device is perfect even if I haven't use such a device before right?!

tintingz:

Sorry, if you a perfect designer NEED to correct what you created, what does that make you, limited? Yes?

If Allah knows everything both the past and future why those he have have to correct his mistakes? An omnipotent God want to correct what he created he had to make the women apologize for what he made them be, please tell me how this God is unlimited!

You know I tried to make sense of your analogy in my response, but you keep going on a tangent...The way God created us is the best way in which he wanted, no MISTAKES, he had already created the ability for man to cover up his unclothedness. your analogy would have been apt if man never had the ability to USE clothing to cover up their unclothedness in the first place! So think well before bringing up your analogies next time.

tintingz:

I thought God creation are perfect.

So if God created everything the way he wants, so God created everything without reasoning or what? Why should we care about a God that do things without reasoning? And if he reasoned when he created everything, where those he got his reasons from?

Did God create humans because he feel like doing so or he created humans because it's the right thing to do?

Let's see your response.

Only God is perfect, and the way he wants us to be created is perfect, and his reasons are perfect! If you take decisions the way you want, does it mean you do not have a reason for your decision?! The "want" in itself is a reason! What do you think are the bases behind every human invention/creation?! Do you think the inventors of the computer/nuclear bomb/automobile etc. were thinking about the right thing to do or it was to serve the purpose they were created for?!

tintingz:

Like I said laws are relative, so I don't know which law you're talking about. Is the law that command men to beat thier disobedient wives, killing apostates, killing homosexuals, beating and stoning adulterers? Does this law applicable to everyone?

There are laws governing nature which everyone and everything obeys, whether you like it or not, you claim it is just nature taking its course, but I say Allah (SWT) is this law giver that dictates how nature takes its course, so whether you accept the shari'ah or not is inconsequential, because you cannot escape the other law which is universal!

tintingz:

And bro, humans can determine what is right and wrong without an acient fairy book telling them.

I understand Gods, which is they are conflicting.

Yes indeed, and how did humans get this amazing skill set to determine what is right and wrong?! Is it inherent or acquired?!

To accept one God isn't conflicting, to worship one God is not conflicting, you are the one conflicting with yourself!

tintingz:

Oga, I don't have problem with something must cause something only if you agree God is caused by something but if you exclude God then that's problematic in logical sense.

I don't have problem recognizing the existence of the author, the problematic there is something must cause the author, Something must cause something right?

You see you can't eat your cake and have it too.

Science is yet to unravel "nothing" that gave rise to the origin of the universe, I guess you shouldn't believe the attendant parts of the universe like earth is a subset of the universe right, that is if we are to go by your "elevated" reasoning right?!

I am telling you that you do not have to know the origin of God before you believe in him, that a piece of information is missing about an author does not mean that the author does not exist!

tintingz:

So why those a perfect merciful God want earthquake for Humans?

It is part of his perfect plan!

tintingz:

So who create the creator? If you keep saying something must cause something, then what cause the creator?!

But I can help you reason!

Tell me what cause the author and stop the empty talk and crap logic.

So which book are you talking about, whatever the case maybe a book must have author that's physical, can be located.

You cannot even help yourself reason! Over 3 billion base pairs, A-T, G-C these are the letter representation of nucleotide on your DNA, which codes for how you look, talk, digest food, how you reproduce, how you see, ear, walk, express your personality, etc. yet you believe there is no author for this, it was by "mistake" that all these over 3 billion base pairs came together to form you, and there is absolutely no reason or intelligence behind these designs...Do you know what 3 billion letters would look like when you write that in a book?!

The creator was not created! We are incapable of comprehending the essence of the creator, all you can do is apply reason to the vastness and greatness of the universe, and even with the advancement in science and technology, you still are very very far behind in understanding so many things about even this earth, so how on earth do you think the creator would even have a cause?! Is it even thinkable?!

I am talking about the author of the DNA which is a book with over 3 billion letters containing all the information about you or any other living organism!

tintingz:
Zeus is the supreme deity in the Greek religion, Sango might be limited but he derive his power from Eledumare! It doesn't affect the premise that these Gods are source of thunder and immortal, I will like to know how Allah is different from human-like, is it the God that sit on a throne with hands and legs or a God that shows anger and reason like that of humans, please tell me how Allah is different from other Gods?

What Greek mythology are you reading from?! Zeus had a father who obviously was also a god, in fact, there were myriads of gods in Greek mythology, and Sango was born of a woman, and got married etc. God being a supreme being, need not to be entangled in such limitations and imperfections, and wouldn't exist within his creation, cos God should be greater than his creation in all ramifications...

To get a perfect description of God, read the following:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (Q112:1-4)

There is no room for ambiguity, loop holes or limitations, all the attributes you have mentioned are mere similarities we share, but distinct from the reality which isn't comprehensible just like it is quite impossible, even with the advancement in AI, that a "machine" created by man, can understand how humans communicate....

tintingz:

And for your info, Allah was originally a supreme deity a local god of the pantheon worship by the Quraysh tribe until Muhammad made Allah the main God.

Lol, you just keep getting me amused, it seems your atheism is retrogressive, these are lines from overly "enthusiastic" Christian evangelists, please do not forget to also mention that Allah is the moon god...

tintingz:

Interesting! You stated a designer that's limited.

The reason Devices comes with manual is because the device is not perfect and the designer himself is not perfect which requires a manual to know how it works and maintain it.

# A perfect device from a perfect designer should be able to invent a device without no manual or guidelines.

# For a perfect designer to invent and give manual for his device shows he reasoned, now the question is where did he reason from?

^^^The above statement shows a limited designer who depends on something.

You invented a mobile phone that has no silent option, it's always ring out then suddenly along the years you decide to give laws that mobile phones shouldn't ring out that phones speakers should be blocked with something to prevent it from ringing out. Now use this for Muslim women on Niqab, Hijab.

For a designer to reason this way shows he's limited!

It is a user that needs the manual and not the inventor! Your analogy would only make sense that there is a NEED for the phone to be silent as time went by, therefore, because there was a NEED for women to be properly dressed and identified as Muslims, hence the law for the hijab was revealed. It doesn't remove anything from me as an inventor, that is why we have R& departments in successful companies!

tintingz:

Because natural phenomenon has process doesn't means it's perfect, natural disasters are perfect to you? Humans inventing things to travel is perfect to you? Why can the perfect designer give Humans wings to fly?

I didn't say the above, God is perfect, God created everything the way he wants, with obvious imperfections and limitations to make you appreciate the diversities as well as acknowledge the fact that you are insignificant in the scheme of things and would be in a state of seeking perfection which should normally lead you back to God!

tintingz:

If your God is potent and perfect, he shouldn't allow humans to create laws, he shouldn't himself join human trend in creating laws. Lol

A potent God should know what's best for Humans not modifications after creation.

Bro, God is the law giver, he isn't competing with anyone, his laws are commensurate with the NEEDS of man at any point in time... For someone who was a Muslim, I sincerely doubt you truly understood God then, and this is quite unfortunate.

tintingz:

If it's IMPOSSIBLE for everything to have come from NOTHING, then God must come from SOMETHING.
You can't argue that everything must come from something and exclude God. what kind of logic is that?

A > B > C > Z..... > A, the cycle continues, for A to exist back, Z must cause it.

What would knowing the origin of the author do to prove that a book was surely written by an author?! This is the question you need to ask yourself, isn't the book enough that it was indeed written by an author?! Do you ask to know the origin of an author before you believe the book was written by one?! Keep your cyclic logic to yourself, it doesn't help your illogical denial!

tintingz:

Death is part of nature, it doesn't need anyone controlling it, it's irrational to think some higher entity is controlling live and death when reality we're not seeing any intervention.

Yes it is part of nature, and nature has principles guiding it, so it is for the whether, for earthquakes, for so many things in nature, these principles or guidelines came from something, and that is God, not from nothing!

tintingz:

I don't believe in personal gods, trust me if there are evidence to proof the existence of Allah I will accept Allah, I'm open for truth with fact and evidence.

Someone believe unicorn exist and as well can't proof it existence, is it my fault to reject unicorn?

You wouldn't accept the truth even if it slaps you in the face, you are not seeking for the truth, and I am not talking about a unicorn! The fact that the universe and all what it contains exists, is enough evidence that there is a creator.

tintingz:

Like I said, empty talk empty talk.

Proof Allah Is the creator and other Gods including flying spaghetti monster are fake and false.

The last time I checked, an arab man in the desert cave wrote about Allah in a book, it's like writting fictional stories in my room and come out saying it's the true.

I have done that repeatedly, but since you are adamant on your views, I can't help you!

tintingz:

What about non Abrahamic religion?

Another blasphemy, flying spaghetti monster is the true God! Allah is false god.

Anyways, Maybe you should tell how the character of Allah and Olorun are the same and I want to know which God represent the true God?

God is one, different culture and languages represent God differently, but one thing in common is the believe in a creator of everything!

tintingz:

What crap logic is this.

The author is relevant to be known, where those this author came from? Abi when you buy a novel, you don't see about the author and the picture at the back of the book?

So you wouldn't believe that there is an author for a book in your possession because you don't know where the author came from?! Are you sure you know what crap logic is?!

BTW, I didn't say the book is a novel did I?!

tintingz:

So how those this link to Allah being the true God? Anybody even the deist can claim this in debate.

*I'm yet to watch the video.

Have you read about quantum vacuum?

Watch the video!

tintingz:

I'm not denying the author of a book because the author picture can be seen and he can be located, the author is not anonymous but what you're denying is show me where this author came from? Tell me where or who caused the author then we can talk about the natural phenomenon that has NO link-evidence to any imaginary entities.

The question is, Since you cannot deny the existence of an author because you do not know who or where the author is from, then why are you denying the existence of a creator because you do not see or know his origin?!

tintingz:

Yes Arab Christians call Yahweh Allah because that's thier language, the argument here is the origin and nature of these Gods.

Yahweh a cannanite deity, Allah an Arabian pagan deity.

and Eledumare, the yoruba pagan deity... But all are still referring to the supreme being right?! The creator of the universe right?!

tintingz:

I'm not trying to win any f**king argument, I'm simply preaching reason!

Preach on brother! You shall win many souls for the flying spaghetti monster! And please remind me, what are you saving us from again?! That we are going to die and nothing would happen right?! I'll tell you it doesn't take anything away from me if I die and nothing happens, I would definitely have no regrets!

tintingz:
I was expecting a rational response but you disappointed me Mr sino.

# Man created God, deities and religion due to ignorance, they don't understand what's arround them, so they created a god to fill those gaps (god of the gaps), now that science is revealing and explaining many phenomenon around us, god is diminishing. E.g People thought Zeus, Sango, Thor were the source of thunder and lighting especially when they are angry, now science has been able to tell how thunder works.

Secondly, religion was created for political reason to control the people with fear of wrath of gods, punishment etc. The reason each religion laws are traditional and cultural base.

It is only common sense to admit that there is a creator of everything, zeus or sango are not said to be the creator of everything,and according to the reports available, they had limitations and really weren't different from mortal men, except for some "powers". The advancement in knowledge which you have pointed to, actually give credence to the fact that this one true God cannot be like the creation, thus, those worshiping Zeus, Sango et. al., were/are indeed mistaken (again, worshiping the creation).

If you created a very sophisticated device, wouldn't you give users a manual to help them navigate and use effectively and optimally?! Everything that exist has a rule/principle guiding it, just like the thunder you mentioned, it doesn't occur without it following its principle. Because you have a choice, you are given the ability to reason and make your own choices doesn't make you above these principles. Look through any natural phenomenon, it has guidelines, methods, processes that are systematic, much like it is programmed. Of course, we humans are also part of these programme, hence our actions and inaction have effects on these natural phenomena...

What I am driving at is that, this world, without laws would result into chaos, even with laws, humans still cause a lot of chaos! And that is why institutions, governments, communities, clubs, societies employ the use of the law. Are you as an atheist above the law?! If you can succumb to laws of the land, why are you finding divine laws difficult to accept?! And punishment is part of the law, there are consequences for everything you do, the depletion of the ozone layer and global warming are consequences of our actions and inactions! That is what punishment and reward is all about!

tintingz:

# How do you know we were created? Is it because a book said so or what justification ground? If we were created then why are we created and why are we punished, why is life unfair to humanity?

Not only because a book said so, but because it is a fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for this universe (including me and you) to have come from nothing! And our purpose is to acknowledge that creator. Once we do this, then it wouldn't be difficult to understand and accept the things that happen on this earth, because at the end of the day, what can you do to stop some (if not all) of these things?! Aging and eventually death should be the most unfair thing to happen to man, but what can man do to stop this?! NOTHING! Life is fair to some and not so for others, these differences also indicates that something beyond us is in control.

tintingz:

All religion has dogmas, Islam is a copied religion and culture, how each religion worship thier Gods is the truth and way to them, how they practice is the truth to them, you can't say because your book said other religion are fake/false means they are false because that's exactly what they said/saying about your religion (religion superiority), and like I understand about some religion, they don't worship creation instead they channel thier worship through these gods/heros.

Of course, you are also on the right path with your atheism, isn't it the reason you cannot stay away in trying too hard to deny God and keep ranting about it?!

Everyone has the right to believe whatever he wants, even if it is the flying spaghetti monster. Like I said, once you believe that there is a creator, then your purpose is to worship that creator, once that is established, then this creator would definitely want you to worship him directly and not direct your attention to something or someone else in the name of channeling or a means to reach God, because this God alone is supreme, and nothing is like unto him. And yes there are fake religions and fake Gods, and one of the easiest way to know this is when you are worshiping something or someone created (e.g, the flying spaghetti monster ).

tintingz:

Because the Abrahamic religion has more followers or whatever you mean by being successive in that context doesn't make your religion the right one.

I believe my post was quite clear, these religion were successive, it has nothing to do with the number of followers, it has to do with the theme of these religions and how they were introduced in history...

tintingz:

This is blasphemy, Flying Spaghetti monster is the only one true God!

You didn't mention which God isn't? Is it Allah? Don't tell me that's the true God! A God that was recreated by a man in the desert cave?


So which God is the one true God?

God is the same, people may have different names to call him by, but flying spaghetti monster isn't one of them

tintingz:

Why not tell me who created the author or where those the author came from? Shebi something must cause something?

Since you agree that the book in your hands is an evidence that there is an author, where the author comes from isn't relevant, since this knowledge cannot disprove that the author exists!

tintingz:

So color, shape, characteristics is your evidence of your God, why not tell me why your God didn't give humans wings or how natural disasters is perfect for a designer?

Lol, I wonder how your strong evidence is rationalize with my above statement.

If you only know what it takes for you to see, the pathway that leads to vision, you would understand that this happening by randomness is completely impossible! Your DNA that codes you is so specialized and unique that claiming it was by nothing would make you look silly. Watch the video below where Richard Dawkins contradicts himself trying to explain the origin of the universe...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v34QjYPuiEA

Apparently, it is either nothing is something (mysterious) or nothing is nothing and can never bring forth something...

This brings me back to the author & book theory, if you cannot deny the existence of an author of a book which is in your possession, then why should you deny that there is an author of the DNA which has about 3 billion base pairs (these are macromolecules which contains the total information about you), and within this DNA, is a repair mechanism that reduces the error rate during replication from one in ten million bases to one in a billion i.e almost impossible for an error to occur!

tintingz:

This is empty talk.

So Allah is not man-made creation?
Yahweh is the true universal God according to the Christians and Jews books, how you are confidence that Allah is the true God according to the Quran is what I'm yet to get from you.

Proof to me Allah is the one true God, and the funniest thing is , if you take the Quran and Muslims away, I wonder how Allah will exist.

I thought you were once a Muslim, the above shouldn't have come from you. Arab Christians call God Allah! Even the Arab pagans called God Allah. I would repeat again, God is the same (but may be called different names due to language and culture), and there is none like this one true God!

You may correct me if I am mistaken, reading through your posts, it seems you are trying to win converts to atheism or you just want to feel fly and show off that you are now an atheist or you are basically looking for an avenue to justify your atheism?!

tintingz:
# There are thousands of creator deities and as well religions, why he choose this particular deity and religion is what I'm asking, why does he thinks the deity/God is one creator that created all?

You should know that man from time immemorial has been seeking to understand his origin, thus, the fact that we must have come from a more powerful, supernatural being. The thousands and thousands of deities and religions were as a result of this quest. Be that as it may, all these religions and deities cannot be said to be genuine, so any reasonable individual would have to probe further, so as to get to the truth! Indeed, one may be restricted or limited to research all the religions in the world, but one truth that cannot be denied by any religious person is the fact that we were created, and the creator wants us to connect with him....

This is were you start differentiating connecting with a creation and connecting with the creator. This is also were your common sense would be put to use, that is, if a creator sends a messenger to show us the way to him, then it goes against common sense to start worshiping this messenger. This individual in question had been worshiping the creation, eventually, he was gradually introduced to the concept of worshiping the creator, coupled with the fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam can be said to be successive respectively. Again, these religions have one God as the creator, except for some Christians who believe in the trinity, but still alludes to one true God!

tintingz:

# Denying Flying Spaghetti monster makes one look foolish at the end of the day!
* Denying God is not the problem, denying "other Gods" is his problem, denying what has no strong evidence to backup his existence is not my problem!

lol, the flying spaghetti monster is a creation of man, God isn't! In fact believing in the former makes you look foolish everyday!

Anyways, as I had already pointed out, the one true God can only be one, and this God must be distinct from what this God created. This man acknowledged this fundamental truth, and hence accept to submit totally to this one true God and not this God's creation!

Well, you being here is a strong evidence for God, 'cos if you believe that it is impossible for a book to just appear without an author or an editor or a printer etc., then why would you believe to be possible, you with all your traits, characteristics, color, shape, and design was by accident?!

tintingz:

# Is it that Allah appear to him in Egypt or in London mosque that he abadon his former God or he just assume this must be the right one, whatever it's what makes this God and religion the right one?

He didn't abandon his former God, he always believed in God, but was worshiping the creation instead of God, and that he realized and accepted the worship of the one true God!

tintingz:
There is no universal right and wrong, it's relative and subjective.

Fact(evidence) is the tool to backup your claims.

I will like to know what makes his decision the right path?

He acknowledged the fact that there is a creator who can only be one, and the fact that Islam as a religion can only be from that one creator!

He also realized that he would only be fooling himself if he denies this truth, because let's face it, denying God only makes you look foolish at the end of the day.

Fundamentalist:


So when you discovered that you can't escape you decided to make it cultural, abi.

Double standard

Bro, it is either you present a better understanding of the verse or you just ignore. Where is the double standard?! Are greetings not cultural too?! Or is it only Muslims that are to greet each other ni?! "e ka ro" is replied to with "e ka ro" and to reply with something better (according to the verse) may include, "se dada lo ji" or "oju mo re" these are Yoruba greetings...Prostration, kissing of the feet, hugging, handshakes etc. are cultural practices or forms of greetings peculiar to different cultures. You tend to apply these forms of greetings according to your culture, and if you find yourself in another culture you learn these forms of greetings and apply accordingly.

Fundamentalist:



You should answer my question please , how should you reply such greeting ?

Making reference to the Yoruba form of greeting in terms of respect for elders would only be reciprocated with what is culturally acceptable, that is, they are to respond accordingly, of course, the prostration isn't the greeting per se, for if I prostrate and didn't say a word, it may be misconstrued. Greetings are verbally communicated, and this is what the verse in question is addressing.

Fundamentalist:


So if you bow or postrate to an elderly person like your dad or mum or uncle as a form of greeting how should they respond according to your understanding of this verse

21st century Muslim abi liberal Muslim

I am sure you read the narration presented to explain what the verse meant?! Why not give a better understanding of the verse?!

And, I am a Muslim!