Rashduct4luv:


Source

I had read this few days back, but avoided mentioning anything about it, even the theory of life being birthed from clay is more than 5 decades old, proposed by a scientist that I can't remember his name, but i know the people I am dealing with here, dem get strong head! It is never about the truth for them, but to stroke their atheistic egos!

Akin1212:


LMAO, I can imagine what the lack of basic science knowledge can do to a man. Oxygen is not always only in air, For example, we have oxygem in water. Human respiration only needs oxygen and not air. In the absence of air and rhe presence of oxygen, human respiration and cellular respiration will take place 100%.

Secondly, in general term respiration is not defined as breathing, only the illiterate's define it as such.

Take science classes. And by the way, I am a biochemist.

Lol, and man uses the oxygen in water for respiration abi?!

And Merriam-Webster are full of illiterates to have defined it so?!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respiration

Biochemist?! And what is the source of the oxygen for man on earth?! Oxygen tanks?! I'll rather be in the arts than learn from a biochemist like you!

Akin1212:


I guess you will never understand how this does not correlate even though I took time to explain.

Let me try again,
Of course, oxygen is part of air, no one says it's not.
And also there are also other constituents of earth, carbon etc.

But where your logic fail is what is and what is not.

Science specifically points out that Oxygen is used for respiration, it didn't say air.

But the quran says that man is made of earth, not its part or some of its elements.

The logic fails because you're putting air and earth on the same column and oxygen and other parts of earth on the same column as regarding this argument and your analogy.

If science had said we respire with air, your logic would have been correct. Take logic classes too brother. Don't bring illogical analogies to this table.

My logic is beyond your grasp, while you have agreed that air and earth would be in the same column, creation (which I believe you deny) and respiration are processes and would be in the same column, of course you lack the knowledge of creation (of Adam), hence, you wouldn't know what was used and how it was used, but since you know that oxygen, out of all other gases, is used in respiration, should inform you that specificity or significance with regards to what can be used in biological processes, isn't based on abundance....FYI, nitrogen happens to be the most abundant gas in air....

Imagine, "oxygen and part of earth in the same column" very laughable!

Akin1212:

I didn't miss the point, I actually understood your illogical analogy, but it doesn't apply because we are concerned about the info from the Quran. Hence we have to be concerned about what science states explicity too. And you were wrong. You cannot connect breathing air to respiration because we can achieve respiration without air. All we need is oxygen.

You dont have to believe anything on my mental capacity, you only need to make good use of yours, and you're still failing to do just that woefully.

Your argument that other parts of earth must have been used to create Adam is categorically omitting the use of silicon, isn't it? Since you agree that life is not based on silicon, it's another way of saying the other parts of earth found in man was used and silicon was not. And that argument was not stated in your Quran, you are only making that inference to strengthen the narrative of the Quran.
It's not too hard to fathom bro. Just THINK,that's all you need to do.

At bold, where do humans get oxygen for respiration naturally?!

Lol, I think we are getting somewhere, while you are making inferences from my arguments (which are wrong by the way), and that is okay, I on the other hand cannot do so from the Qur'an?! Earth is earth, it comprises of different components! The fact still remains, can we find what we are made up of in the earth?! and the answer is YES! So we are made from earth! And when we die, we return to the earth!

I am thinking bro, life is way too complex to make assumptions of what ought to have been or what should be, and that much can be understood by studying life processes, even evolution, but what do I know sef...

tintingz:
What do you mean oxygen is life itself?

Stressing the importance of oxygen to life, especially, human life! You can call it a figure of speech, or an axiomatic statement.

tintingz:

And is Silicon part of Adam composition?

This is the third time I'm asking.

I do not know, the reason I kept asking you for Adam's biological samples for analysis.

Akin1212:
To make it simple for you and show how illogical your analogy is. Read below. @sino

Science specifically stated that oxygen is used for respiration, not air.
Quran specifically stated that earth, mud and clay was used for creating man, not part of it.

But man is not earth nor mud nor clay, while oxygen is used for respiration as claimed by science.

The analogy would have been logically correct if we use air for respiration.

Man cannot be created in the absence of earth, mud, clay, and water following the quran. And that's exactly what you stand for.

Respiration takes place in the absence of air. Or you don't know?

Oga logic, is oxygen not part of air?! Earth is not made up of silicon alone, so what are you on about?!In general term, respiration is defined as breathing! I do not know your background, but when it comes to respiration, especially cellular respiration, i can write epistles, nay, i have written epistles!

Without air, human respiration cannot occur, oya argue!

Akin1212:

So this is a logical argument to the use of earth and use of part of earth in your opinion? It's nice that you are trying to make your narrative valid, but sorry it is what it is. Breathing is different from Respiration. you really need science lessons. We don't use air for respiration, we use oxygen. It was stated clearly in the Quran that earth was used to create your imaginary Adam, not part of earth.

Science does not mislead like your Quran. In science, it is stated clearly and explicitly that we use oxygen for respiration, science didn't say we use air for respiration. Don't come here and drop illogical arguments, think before you type.

Of course, breathing in air (containing potpourri of gases) leads to the process of respiration where only oxygen is used! That all of what air contains enters into our lungs doesn't mean humans must make use of it! That is the logic!

How you missed the point to putting words in my mouth is amazing, I never made mention of what science says or what not, but thank you for the unsolicited science lessons....

Akin1212:

Lol, keep arguing with the keyboard is an intelligent argument from someone like you who hasn't lost his ability to think. Lmao

Here is how you twisted the facts. Again, explicitly the Quran said earth, mud, clay and water was used to create man. It didn't say silicon was omitted and the rest was used. Now, you are the one who is telling us that silicon was omitted because we have been able to prove that there is no silicon based life. If we said there is a silicon based life, your narrative would be different. I hope your intelligence would be useful in understanding now. Have a nice day.

Na wa o, I never said silicon was omitted, this is you misconstruing my arguments, and yet, you want me to believe you have the mental capacity to think?!

If you need me to explain my position, say so politely. Regardless, my argument is that since we can find all what we (and not Adam (AS), except you do have a sample from him) are made up of in the earth, then, saying Adam (AS) was created from earth is correct, regardless of the abundance of silicon in the earth!

You are all here arguing about silicon when oxygen happens to be more abundant, and can be said to be life itself! But what do I know sef....Have a lovely day!

tintingz:
Adam component according to the Quran.

Earth = 90% silicate

Clay = Silicate

Mud = Silicate

Dust = Silicate

Water = Oxygen

From materials mentioned above, we have 4 silicon materials and 1 oxygen material, does complex molecules like humans have silicon? NO!

Does Adam has silica? YES!

Is there any Silicon base life? Hell NO!

Scientis tintingz!!! this mind-boggling revelation deserves a Nobel prize, you do not even know that the "4 silicon materials" contains oxygen, and the oxygen is even more than the silicon!

Yeah, Adam is Silicon!

Akin1212:
These people are hilarious, the quran didn't say Adam was created with parts of earth or parts of mud or parts of clay or parts of water. It said he was created with earth, clay, mud and water.

This logically means earth and all it contained was used. Trying to say the other parts were used because life is not silicon based is trying to twist things to suit your own narrative. If the quran was a book of truth, there's no need in hiding the truths until it is discovered. A book that does such is never a book of truth. Never!

Oga logic, we breath in air, means we make use of all the gases in air for respiration?! When plants take nutrients from the earth, it is making use of all that is in the earth right?! LOGIC no go kee you!

It amazes me how people lose their ability to think simply because they do not want to accept the truth! By the way, I haven't twisted anything to suit any narrative, the fact still remains that what we are composed of can be found in what was used in creating Adam (AS), you may keep arguing with your keyboard!

tintingz:
What else is clay, dusts, mud if not silicate, maybe Adam was a metal or glass or aluminum, Allah do things in mysterious ways.

You keep making this fallacious claim, but I know your problem, you are fixated on the abundance of the inorganic mineral containing silicon i.e silicate, but there are other inorganic, organic minerals too! There are indeed non-silicate minerals in the earth! If you die and are buried without a coffin, you become dust and part of earth! Even with the abundance of silicate where your remains are, if I want a rich source of nutrients for my vegetable farm, I would take the earth from where you are buried, and it would nourish my vegetables, not the silicates, but part of your decomposed body! The fact is that life was on earth before Adam (AS) was created, even with the abundance of silicate, who says what was used couldn't have been the organic materials within the earth?! I told you that what we are composed of can be found in earth, and rightfully so, oxygen being the most abundant element in earth is also the most abundant in the human body! Must everything be spelled out to you befor you understand?!

I am not even arguing the creation of Adam being mysterious or miraculous, which actually is so, but I am faulting your illogical approach to wanting to disprove this by citing the abundance of a particular element, even though you have no explicit and empirical evidence to state for certain that Adam (AS) was indeed composed of silicon, nor do you have any idea of how this creation happened, nor do you have an understanding of the composition of the said earth that was used, or even the biochemical reactions that occurred during this process...You sure do not know what you are talking about!

tintingz:

And why can't Allah mention nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, I thought he's all knowing? At least Muhammad would have known science better in his days.

Yeah, because the Qur'an is a chemistry textbook, and the Prophet (SAW) was a scientist?! Qur'an need not mention all the elements of the periodic table, those who read the Qur'an over 1400 years ago and those of us who read it now understand the concept, the idea, the rational, the wisdom and the guidance, but those in whose heart is a disease (pride and arrogance) and who lack the mental capacity to reflect, think, contemplate, would deny the truth and ask silly questions....

true2god:
Them why are Muslims always trying to authenticate Islam using science? Haven't you heard 'scientific miracles of the quran'?

If modern science are contradicting your religion, then stop using science to valid your religion or else people will always take the prophet as a clown.

With regards to this topic, where and how did the Qur'an contradict science?! Muslims do not need science to validate Islam, and you guys are just too parochial with your taught processes, and I don't blame you though, when you don't believe or you hate something, you always look for faults!

History has taught us how religious men explored science, and there are still religious people in the field of science. Islam teaches Muslims to seek knowledge, explore the world and beyond, observe, reflect and contemplate. Islam did not limit us to the Qur'an, but points us to the right direction and guide us to the understanding that no matter what we have acquired in terms of knowledge of this world and by extension the universe, we are still limited; what is given to the whole of mankind is just minuscule, and this should naturally humble us to surrender to God!

And yes there are scientific miracles in the Qur'an, what makes the Qur'an unique and special is not the science, for it is not a book of science, but a book of faith, wisdom and understanding, only those who think, reflect, contemplate would understand i.e those who are wise and intelligent! You are free to disagree with me, no qualms!

tintingz:
Without silica there can't be formation of earth.

My goodness.

Crust is the layer of earth, which is silicon, it's widely composed after oxygen on earth, Silicon can be found in dust, sand, clay etc which your God used to create a human. Lol.

After Oxygen is Silicon. I presented that in my previous post.

What you still don't get is that, Silicon is not part of human component, yes oxygen is part of us, no single Silicon is in complex molecules like human not even 1%.

Still humans are not compose of silicon which your God used to create Adam.

There are theories regarding all this, don't bother going strawman.

Allah would have mentioned hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide etc as what he used to create Adam but he didn't, he mentioned silicate material.

It's either Allah doesn't know what he was doing and saying or you're just defending his ridiculousness or it was just a primitive man idea.

You are expecting to see carbon, nitrogen, carbon dioxide written in the Qur'an abi, don't worry, since you have seen silicon written look deeply, you would see the rest...Mehn, your IQ must be in the negative with this your queer reasoning, what next would you argue about?! Why the periodic table isn't in the Qur'an?! Pathetic!

tintingz:
Sigh.

Can the earth components be without silica?

I just posted above that 90% of earth's crust is composed of silica, you are there making some ridiculous claims, talking about nitrogen no one is arguing about.

You can't mention earth, dusts, clay, sand, mud component and not mention silica, you can't separate them because silica play major role.

The Quran clearly said Adam was created from earth, dust, mud, clay which are widely silicon components they are the highly used to create Adam even if it's 1% of silica it's still biological false, you are there given some nonsensical weak excuses.

THERE IS NO SILICON BASE LIFE!

Can you show us how organic materials in the earth depends on silica or how other inorganic minerals depends on silica?! Was silica not part of earth during the origin of life?! Do you have evidences for your answers or you just like to talk/write?!

@ the bold, I see you didn't get the gist, let me try another. Since the earth crust is over 90% silica, why are plants not using this silicon but rather use other elements in the earth for nutrients?! With your logic, all our food which we plant in the earth ought to be silicon based?! Is this not the pattern of your argument with regards to Adam (AS)?!

By the way, in terms of abundance of elements by weight, oxygen is more than silicon! funny enough, we are more of water, which happens to also contain oxygen!

"By mass, human cells consist of 65–90% water (H2O), and a significant portion of the remainder is composed of carbon-containing organic molecules. Oxygen therefore contributes a majority of a human body's mass, followed by carbon."

Source

You have stylishly neglected the fact that water is also mentioned in the Qur'an, as well as the abundance of oxygen in the earth to harp on silicon, as if silicon is the only thing that can be found on earth!

Another point which you have failed to consider is the breath of "life", what this means and what it is composed of is beyond your grasp, but yen yen yen, silicon this, silicon that....

Again, you do not have the knowledge of what you want to disprove, you just like arguing sha...If I ask you about the origin of life on earth now or how was the organic molecules formed and what inorganic materials were used, and whether these materials can be found on earth, you go start to dey sound like a broken record...

What is false is your arguments, silicon being abundant in earth doesn't mean that it is the only thing used or make you know the significant role it played during creation and thus must be present in the offspring of Adam and since you cannot produce your lab result from Adam (AS) to justify your claims that silicon was part of his biochemistry, then you are just clutching at straws here!

tintingz:
What do we expect from an apologist lol.

Ofcos there are other elements that compose these materials, one of the elements that dominated these materials is silicon, it is the major component of these materials. Is it dust, rock, earth, sand, clay etc they are compose of silica. This not about other elements, this is about silicon playing a major role in this.

Now this where the problem is, I asked earlier can Carbon mix with Silicon form a complex molecules? To answer that, No its not possible, it is biological impossible for complex molecules like humans made up of silicon, we're carbon base living being, there is no single trace of silicon material in us.

It is false when the Quran mentioned materials like clay, dusts, mud as part of human components.

The reason I said Allah used silicon most as the creation of Adam is because silicated materials outweigh other matrial which is water.

It is most widely distributed in dusts, sands, planetoids, and planets as various forms of silicon dioxide (silica) or silicates.

More than 90% of the Earth's crust is composed of silicate minerals, making silicon the second most abundant element in the Earth's crust (about 28% by mass) after oxygen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon

You have no point here, since there are other elements found in the earth, and these other elements can be found in man, then man is indeed made from earth!

You make assumptions, and claims you cannot provide evidence for, how would you know the roles which element played during creation of Adam (AS)? I gave example of the abundance of Nitrogen and yet we are not using that for respiration, what does that tell you? From the link you provided, there are other BIOLOGICAL LIVING THINGS, MAKING USE OF SILICON! You should always learn to know your limits, you can't be arguing on issues you know little or nothing about, hence my initial question, do you have a sample from Adam we can take to the lab?

I know you wouldn't want to accept your folly, but until you can prove that the earth used in making Adam (AS) was entirely made up of silicon, and there where no other components which I had already directed you to, or bring a sample of Adam, or quote the verse where it stated that silicon was mostly used, then I would want to think, perhaps, you actually do not know what you are talking about here!

tintingz:
The materials the Quran presented are Earth, dust, clay, mud and water, apart from water others are derive from silicon or contain silicon.

There's no other material Allah mentioned that was used to create Adam. Imagine the weigh of those mentioned materials.

They are all derived from silica, Earth itself is made up of rock containing rich of Silicon.

This is intersting, are you saying there are no other elements that make up the earth except for silicon? I don't know where you are getting your information from, but I guess since you are hellbent on arguing your silicon 'theory', then no other element exist in the earth! I guess those other elements found in earth are just there for decorations...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth's_crust

You may wish to take a look at the above and more importantly, look at the rock forming elements...

You are yet to present the verse that says silicon is the most used, and you are not able to disprove the Qur'an with regards to the creation of Adam (AS)!

Your silicon 'theory' vis a vis your questioning, is akin to saying that since our atmosphere is made up of mostly Nitrogen, we ought to be breathing in Nitrogen and not oxygen...

As I had said earlier, our present composition can easily be found in what Allah(SWT) says we were created from originally(used in creating Adam), there is no contradiction or any confusion! Try harder next time!

tintingz:
Do you want us to start going back and forth?

What are these materials mentioned made up of?

State it and let move on and stop taking us back.

Oh no, we aren't going back and forth, just produce the verse of the Qur'an that states "silicon is the most used material" in the creation of Adam (AS), then we know where you stand...

By extension, perhaps you should enlighten us on what the aforementioned materials are made up of, it wouldn't cost you anything!

tintingz:
So what's the most used material as mentioned in the Quran?

I am still waiting for the verse you are yet to produce!

So in your readings thus far, earth/dust/mud/clay, which can be collectively called soil, is made up of silicon?!

tintingz:
Earth, Dust, Mud, Clay... what materials are they?

Silicon! They are all made up of Silicon!

tintingz:
Ok

Are humans not Adam's descendants as claim in the Quran?

The Quran is clear on what was used in creating Adam, Silicon is the most used material.

I have listed what the Qur'an mentioned with regards to the creation of Adam (AS), what is significant is the fact that he was created from earth i.e his composition can be found here on earth. We know for certain what we, descendants of Adam (AS), are made up of, and these materials are found in earth/dust(soil)/water/mud/clay....

The Qur'an did not mention silicon, you are the one with the silicon 'theory', you want to force your prejudiced interpretation on the Qur'an, which is silly by the way, and to compound the whole thing, you wrote:"silicon is the most used material" seriously?! Please provide the verse that stated silicon was the most used material from the Qur'an...

tintingz:
Is there any study that mix of Carbon and Silicon form complex molecules?

I don't know

Is Adam a Carbon base life or Silicon base?

Do you have a sample from Adam we can take to a lab?

The Qur’an emphatically states that humans (including Adam (AS) ) were created from earth, thereafter; Allah (SWT) gave information with regards to what was used in stages for the creation of Adam (AS). From the Qur’an, we have mention of the following:

1. Earth
2. Dust
3. Water
4. Mud
5. Clay

The above-named materials are composed of different elements, organic and inorganic materials. While we do not have samples from Adam (AS) to analyze and see what he was made up of, our present composition informs us that all what we are made up of can be found in the above listed, then it is foolhardy for one to just pick one element, or one material and start asking why we are not made up of that material, when there happens to be no information on what proportion of what was used or even how it was used or even the composition of these aforementioned materials during creation.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

When the perfection, complete power, all-encompassing knowledge, ever-executed will and utmost wisdom of the Lord decreed that His creation should be of materials of different kinds, and that they should vary in their forms and attributes and natures, His wisdom decreed that He should take a handful of dust from the earth, then mix it with water. So it became like black stinking mud. Then the wind was sent upon it and it dried out, until it became clay like pottery. Then it was given shape and limbs and faculties, and each part of it was given a shape suited to its purpose.

Then he mentioned how people are created by means of intercourse and the emission of semen.

Al-Tabaayun fi Aqsaam al-Qur’aan, p. 204

And Allah (SWT) knows best!

It is another Hijrah!

If you haven't downloaded the free e-book, go Here

Hijra has taught me
In the cell of opened door
Travel for freedom

My acts seem to lie
When a friend sleeps on my bed
Sneaking out at night

The journey is far
Foes behind, my head they seek
Three nights in a cave

AlBaqir:



For the first time in donkey years, sino want us to rationalize the so-called hadith. Unfortunately, according to your manhaj, it must be treated LITERALLY.


# Al-Uthaymin (d. 1421 A.H) states:

"It is obligatory to leave the text of the Quran and the tradition upon their LITERAL MEANINGS without changing them at all, because God revealed the Quran in a clear, Arabic language and the Prophet spoke Arabic...The LITERAL MEANING of the verse is that God has two LITERAL HANDS. Therefore this must be affirmed for him."

Source: Muhammad ibn Salih al-Uthaymin, Majmu Fatawa wa Rasali, ed. by Fahd ibn Nasir  ibn Ibrahim al-Sulayman,  29 vols (Riyadh: Dar al-Watan, 1413 - 1431 AH), V (1414AH), 11-12



# Besides, there is no "fill in the gap" in the noble verse we've pointed out. The verse is crystal clear.  Allah who created man and Jinn knew their population; and He knew and created the size of hell that will fill their numbers. And He states clearly that "He will fill the hell with Satan and his troops from among men and jinn".

Therefore, it is preposterous to accept a pseudo information from a liar that hell will be crying "I am not yet filled up; I am still not satisfied; I need more" and that Allah's foot will fill the space.


# And you talk about we not getting anthropomorphic ideas out of our head. That's really funny.

Absolutely you are not accusing us of believing in that nonsense about God. You are simply "begging us" not to interpret the hadith or your tafasir towards that line.

Unfortunately, you cannot eat your cake and have it. Your Salafi ulama said it is OBLIGATORY for you to believe in the LITERAL MEANING of the text of the Quran and hadith (in opposition to other Ahlu Sunnah Ulama that believe in metaphoric meanings).

Meaning that:

* Salafi God has LITERAL two hands

* Salafi God has LITERAL leg(s)/foot

* Salafi God has LITERAL eyes, face and chin

* Salafi God is LITERALLY in the heavens and rose LITERALLY on the throne or chair

OR

Salafi God is LITERALLY above the heavens; and the ABOVE is not by the meaning of "status" but by the meaning of "height"; therefore, 7 heavens and earth are BELOW Him. Unfortunately, an hadith says in respect to Q.57:3 that: "nothing is above Him and nothing is Below Him" https://www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/48/112

Yet, Salafi God is still ABOVE all things, as in height.

* Salafi God even LITERALLY descend to the lowest heavens to hear the prayers of His servants. A situation where He is IN-Between the heavens and the earth; that is, something is above Him and something below Him.

* And Salafi God created man LITERALLY in His own image. And that false book called Bible also states the same thing.


In short, LITERALISM of God points to no other meaning except ANTHROPOMORPHISM.

Rationalizing a narration for better understanding is not the same as giving different interpretation/translations for Allah's names and attributes, mind you, I always employ proper rational in explaining my understanding of any concept in the religion.

Write epistles from morning till night, it doesn't change the fact that my stand with regards to Allah's names and attributes is the same as those of the Prophets, the companions including the ahl-l-bayt (blessings of Allah be upon them all) which is affirmation without anthropomorphism. I had asked you to bring your evidence(s) for those you follow, wherein it is stated that you must interpret/translate these attributes CLEARLY STATED IN THE QUR'AN AND AUTHENTIC TRADITIONS (INCLUDING SHI'AH NARRATIONS) to mean different thing entirely, but up till now, you haven't!

Why not address my questions instead of this long story you are writing?! Did the narration suggests that Allah's leg/foot will be burnt in hell?! When Allah (SWT) used 2 hands in the Qur'an with regards to the creation of Adam (as), was it a mistake?! If you translate/interpret 2 hands to mean another thing, what is your evidence for such translation/interpretation? was it the Prophet (SAW)?! Was it Ali (ra)?! Did the Prophet (SAW) not teach the Qur'an the proper way to his companions, including the ahl-l-bayt?! Why is it so difficult for you to bring evidences for this translation/interpretation of yours from these aforementioned individuals?!

Back to the issue, I ask again how does the narration contradict the verse of the Qur'an?! Did the narration state that Allah (SWT) did not know the number of those who will fill hell? Does the verse say hell already knew the quantity of those that will fill it?! If the narration states that Allah (SWT) put His leg/foot in hell, and hell says enough, enough, in your weird understanding, it therefore means Allah's leg/foot is going to burn like the sinners in hell?! Are there no angels in hell?! Are they also in hell to fill hell and are being burnt in it?!

submit:
# Why would a sensible Muslim follow the hadith of a character (Abu Hurairah) who was highly suspected, accused and caught of lying? Is that verse of Quran not enough when Allah says He will most certainly fill hell with Satan and those that follow him?

Why would a sensible Muslim hold opinion from a single source about another Muslim who happens to be dead and cannot defend himself and believe that such opinion is true?!

The hadith in question does not contradict the verse in any way, it is additional information with regards to the events of judgement day.

# Whether Allah has a literal leg or metaphoric leg, whether His alleged leg is like human or not, why would He put his leg/foot into hell to fill it?

Your understanding that Allah puts His leg/foot to fill hell is the problem, first, you haven't been able to stop yourself from anthropomorphic tendencies with regards to Allah's attributes, secondly, do you think the statement in the hadith means Allah's leg/foot would be burnt in hell?!

This question is like asking why Allah (SWT) says he created Adam (As) with both of His hands in the Qur'an (Q38:75). Your answer to the above question would help in answering your question appropriately.

lanrexlan:
Eid Mubarak in arrears bro That's common with most so called atheists. Insulting and making mockery of religions and religious people, jumping from one religious thread to another. It's pathetic.

They think they are more intelligent than people who profess faith cos they don't believe in the supernatural. They are most logical people on earth!

Exactly, intellectual humility. When someone thinks he already knows, there is no point trying to explain anything.

Brother mine, it isn't difficult to see through people who have nothing to offer, their only argument is mockery and insults, they are like someone who only has a hammer as a tool, everything you bring would only be seen as a nail. There is no other way to describe their parochial reasoning and close-mindedness, it is indeed pathetic!

lanrexlan:

Lol We too will get hajia one day o . Write better than you ke?! You are still my boss, I learnt the rudiments of poetry from you faah.

Should we take a challenge for motivation and inspiration?!

"Robbing my small protuberance belly, pulling my wisdom beard, and with a grin", Lanre, that is how our brothers "encouraged" us with regards to hajia, I'm just fulfilling my responsibility as a good akhee!

It's no joke brother, you write well, by the way, me sef na learner o.

Make I try write something sha....I go post when it is ready in sha Allah.

tintingz:


There's already a professional consensus regards homosexuality which says it's not a mental disorder nor a disease, it's natural and part of sexual orientation variation.

The site NCBI post various jornals as thier articles, they collate researches.

This is from the same NCBI site that posted an article that tries to provide evidence for homosexuality being genetic and biological.

there are two lines of evidence that homosexuality is influenced by polymorphic genes: (i) twin studies indicate that there are both genetic and environmental factors that contribute to the expression of the homosexual phenotype (Pillard & Bailey 1998; Bailey et al. 1999; Dawood et al. 2000), and (ii) male homosexuality appears to be inherited more frequently from the matriline (Pillard et al. 1981, 1982; Pattatucci 1998; Camperio-Ciani et al. 2004), suggesting the existence of polymorphic, heritable maternal effects and/or polymorphic X-linked genes influencing male homosexuality.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1679896/

We don't certainly know the causes of homosexuality, there other natural phenomena we don't know thier causes and functions, researches shows homosexuality is natural.

The consensus was based on researches that are not substantive! Use your brain and just don't do follow follow! Go and read the full article I posted and bring a proper rebuttal and not this appeal to authority fallacy!

tintingz:

What does the Quran said about curing homosexuals, what's the treatment?

The gas, smoke, radiation, the noise population from your worship place, natural disasters etc are not risk to health life? Why are you hypocritical? HIV or diseases does not originate from homosexuals. Cheesus!

The Qur'an states that homosexuality is a sin, man is not made to have sex with another man, so also a woman and a woman. The ruling is to abstain from such activities...If you can't help yourself, due to mental/psychological disorders, you would be treated accordingly, but if you do this act because that is what you want to be doing, you would be sentenced accordingly!

tintingz:

WHO deal with professional consensus in scientific research, there are evidences, theories regards homosexuals being natural, I believe them than your ancient mythical book that lack scientific approach.

I wonder why your God can't foreknow homosexuality will exist but instead of curing them or prevent it from existing, he wants them killed, what kind of homophobic anthropomorphic immoral God is that?

You should help yourself and look at the evidences they are using, I have helped you since you couldn't provide them, so please read and bring appropriate rebuttals, not this "WHO says..."

FYI, I didn't quote the Qur'an for you, I quoted a journal!

tintingz:

Projection and non sequitur, who's arguing about Superman day and night, is that the premise of the argument?, do I look like someone who have faith in an imaginary master in the sky every single seconds?

The evidence of Superman existence is from the comic books just like the evidence of Allah is from the Quran. Superman exist, infact he saved the Earth for many years.

You have no faith in superman, but you want me to believe that superman exist?! How is that possible?! I have said that I am not interested in proving God to you. But I am amazed that you who do not believe in God would rather spend your time to argue about this non-existing God. You want to tell me my God doesn't exist?! Based on what evidence?! When I asked you for answers, you didn't have any, but you keep arguing! SMH!

tintingz:

The Quran is no different from other fairytale books, they are like Arabia bed time stories. Flying donkey, splitting moon, birds dropping stones, splitting sea, stick turn to snake, global flood and many other mythologies.

Okay.

tintingz:

Lol, I defined psychological projection to you yet you don't understand it.

You said I don't have sense or standard morality, while you project this Fallacy, you fail to accept the former in your ideology, meaning other religions sees you as someone who has no sense of morality, e.g majority christians sees your standard/sense of morality as meaningless, infact they believe the Quran is not moral.


Again reversing it, do Jews, christians, Hindus etc care about your good deeds?

Because Morality is subjective does not mean people can't be objective or have subjective veiw that you're good them.

> I can be good to someone and from his subjective view I'm good to him, he cares about my good deeds.

You made a fallacious statement, did I made mention of me that God should care about my good deeds? I was talking about "disbelievers", that was the premise of the argument but instead you started making ad hominem, projections and no sequitur fallacies!

Consequences of being bad? Bad people can get positive consequences, good people can get negative consequences, there is nothing accurate and fair here even in your afterlife your God will still purnish good disbelievers!

Nope you don't understand the purpose of this world, you only understand the purposeless of imaginary wonderland paradise.

Your beloved Prophet cursed the unbelievers because the world is unfair, dude even your prophet rant, your God rants.

From my previous posts, I made mention I've hope in humanity, I've hope in the cosmos, I've hope in the food I eat, I've hope in every living species, I've hope in the future, I've hope in my family but then you started pulling strawman and non sequitur.

Well, other religions believe your hope is hopless, your afterlife will be doom, I didn't say it, that's the religious delusion.

All what you have written does not in any way suggest my projections, rather you have just exposed more of your own projections and insecurities! I wonder when you became the spokesman for other faiths...You should read more on psychological projection, understand it well, come back and address my posts which you claimed are projections.

tintingz:

Lol, Yahweh the cannanite deity is your God, the father of a Nazarene Jewish carpenter?

You didn't see the contradictions do you? Allah and Yahweh?

The Quran made false claims about Yahweh and the Jews.

I have already addressed this, still, it is none of your concern!

tintingz:
WHO declared homosexuality is normal and natural with professional consensus. You still asking for evidence? Lol.

Here's from Wikipedia,

The field of psychology has extensively studied homosexuality as a human sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the DSM-I in 1952, but almost immediately that classification came under scrutiny in research funded by the National Institute of Mental Health. That research and subsequent studies consistently failed to produce any empirical or scientific basis for regarding homosexuality as anything other than a natural and normal sexual orientation that is a healthy and positive expression of human sexuality. As a result of this scientific research, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the DSM-II in 1973.

The longstanding consensus of scientific research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality.[3] There is now a large body of scientific evidence that indicates that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible with normal mental health and social adjustment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology

If you insist on evidence go and meet the professional scientific consensus that declared it normal and natural.

"The American Psychiatric Association and the APA provide the aforementioned studies as the scientific evidence that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexual orientation. The APA noted that homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social and vocational capabilities. Further, the APA urges all mental health professionals to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations (Glassgold et al. 2009, 23–24). The Amici Curiae Brief reiterates the same claim, and it supports the claim by citing the aforementioned literature which looked at “adjustment” and social functioning (Brief of Amici Curiae 2003, 11). [b]As has been shown, though, adjustment and social functioning are irrelevant to determining whether the sexual deviations are mental disorders. As a result, the scientific studies that only looked at measures of adjustment and social functioning draw erroneous conclusions and result in “false negatives” as Spitzer, Wakefield, Bieber, and others have noted. Unfortunately, fatally flawed reasoning has served as the basis for “rigorous” and “scientific evidence” supporting the claim that homosexuality is not a mental disorder but is rather a normal variant of human sexual orientation. One cannot conclude (with Alfred Kinsey) that a human behavior is normal simply because it is more common than previously assumed—otherwise all human behaviors, including serial killing, would have to be considered normal. One cannot conclude (with C.S. Ford and Frank A. Beach) that there is “nothing unnatural” about a behavior simply because it is observed in both humans and animals— otherwise cannibalism would have to be considered to be natural. Most importantly, One cannot conclude (with Evelyn Hooker, John C. Gonsiorek, the APA, the American Psychiatric Association, and others) that a mental condition is not disordered because it does not result in “maladjustment,” distress, or impairment in social functioning—otherwise, many mental disorders would have to be labeled erroneously as normal. The conclusions arrived at in the cited literature are not supported by the premises proposed to be scientific fact; the faulty works cannot be considered credible sources.[/b] It is always best to give others “the benefit of the doubt.” Maybe the APA and the American Psychiatric Association accidentally made catastrophic logical mistakes in the literature they cite as evidence supporting the claim that homosexuality (and other sexual deviances) is not a mental disorder; that scenario is quite possible. Still, one should not be naïve and ignore the potential for powerful organizations to perform advocacy science. There are major inconsistencies in logic as well as arbitrary applications of certain principles by those upheld as “authoritative” in identifying and diagnosing mental disorders. The present summary and analysis in this paper of the literature put forth as “rigorous” and “significant” empirical evidence uncovers major deficiencies—irrelevant, outdated, and absurd literature—and calls into question the credibility of the APA and the American Psychiatric Association’s discussion and identification of sexual disorders. Indeed, suspect anecdotes and antiquated data have been used in the debates surrounding homosexuality, but the evidence shows that even the authoritative sources on mental disorders are guilty of those charges.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771012/

tintingz:

Lol, are homosexuals the only risk to public health? Why are you cherry picking and being bias?

Are homosexuals the majority or minority?

So assuming they are risk to public health, will killing them solve the problem?

All risk to a healthy life and society are frowned against in Islam! A cancerous cell starts as a "minority" but after a while, it becomes a "majority" killing healthy cells and eventually killing the person.

Again, death sentence as established in the law of an Islamic State isn't meant to be a form of killing spree, but rather to deter people from committing such crimes that MAY lead to a death sentence!

tintingz:

If you have evidence to prove them wrong, why not visit the World health organization and demonstrate your evidence in front of professional world health scientists.

Abeg call me if you're going.

You believe to be true without evidence, because WHO (or professionals) says so?! Please quickly go to wiki to lookup your fallacy!

tintingz:

You believe Allah exist right, his evidence of existence is the Quran right? Ok, Superman exist, his evidence of his existence is the comic.

Take it or leave it, Superman exist base evidence from my belief.

Science deal with providing evidence, facts, theories to support belief, assumption, predictions.

And you failed to read the other part of my post that address your folly? That you claim superman exist based on evidence from a book is more reasonable than arguing "day and night" about non-existence of superman, which you believe is imaginary!

tintingz:

This is argument from ignorance.

I never claim I know better, you're pulling strawman.

Did Allah personally appear to you and tell you "oh I exist my pious slave"? Or you travel to the space, discover the universe has an outside then found Allah there?

But since your fairy book claim to have answers, why is there evil?

Since you do not know better, what possible guidance can you give anyone here?! I'm sure you still have access to the Qur'an, you may wish to open and read!

tintingz:

My standard of morality is my empathy, your morality is from your ancient fairy book, they are subjective, whatever the case is your God is not the absolute moral!

So I ask is Morality objective or subjective?

Everyones has empathy, even animals, some people tends not to use it meaning they lack the use of it, they make use of some ancient mythical book for thier morality.

I can also provide research that shows irreligious people are more compassionate than religious folks.

The person who assume I'm hopless.

It seems you do not know what psychological projection means...

Did I say you do not have any sense/standard of morality, because I didn't?! If your standard of morality is empathy, does it mean I do not have empathy?! If the standard definition of empathy correlates with what my "ancient fairy book" states viz. "You do not have faith until you love for your brother, what you love for yourself" then how does that translates to lack of empathy or even sense of morality on my part?! What informed you that I was projecting?!

tintingz:

So with this your pseudo-logic, do christians, Jews care you're good? Or do they believe you're going to thier version of paradise?

You don't even know me, how come you conclude no one cares, applaud, commend, appreciate my good deeds?

Dude you're projecting and pulling strawman.

Lol, I am projecting because I asked you who cares that you are good?! You shouldn't forget the reason for my question was your worry about being a good person and then going to hell! And also your claim that your morality is subjective, so tell me who cares that you are good, and why are you good, and what are the consequences for you not being good?!

tintingz:

The premise is why are there negative things when your God claim to be absolute perfectly all-good?

Why the paradox?

Your strawman is alarming.

You know what, tell me the purpose, meaningful, hope in being in paradise forever?

Do christians see your hope as true of false?

Nope, you can't ask me such questions, you have to prove that I am hopeless, the reason I am projecting hopelessness on you! Remember this is about my psychological projections! You do not see me ranting about how unfair life is, or complaining about death and earthquakes! You do not see me blame God and religion for all the atrocities happening in this world, why? because I understand the purpose of this worldly life and I am always hopeful for what is to come,for verily after difficulty comes ease!

tintingz:

Lol, do you believe Yahweh has a son?

Or better still do you believe in this Yahweh below?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

I told you I believe in the Bible and the Qur'an, both are from God! With regards to the differences (in the attributes and even religion), God had stated in the final revelation, that the differences would be addressed accordingly. Again, it shouldn't be one of your worries!

lanrexlan:
Dear sino, salaam alaykum warahmatulah wabarokatuh dear brother. I will sincerely urge you to refrain from discussions like this. Talking with a person with a closed mindset is like giving a blind man a reading glass. It is of no use.

Dear brother, don't waste your time moving around circles with someone that is not sincere with his quest and just want to argue and argue. Like tbaba1234 once said, he is just trying to validate his disbelief and won't be objective no matter how many proofs and logic you use. It is one thing when questioning is borne out of reading and seeking the truth and it is another thing when it is borne of following whims and desires.

Wa alaykum salam bro, eid mubarak.

Many thanks for your advice, honestly, I do know it is a waste of time trying to prove almost anything to tintingz, this is not the first time I am having a discussion with him, but sometimes, I just still have hope, Allah (SWT) is the one who changes the heart of man. I have tried to probe his present disposition and seek what really gives him the confidence in his disbelief. Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to make a reasonable case for himself, other than criticize, make mockery and insult religion and religious people. One thing I have come to appreciate about learning and knowledge is that, and this is borne by my constant interactions with professors from different fields, is intellectual humility.

lanrexlan:

Akhee, if you think you have free time you wanna use, please kindly spend it with your hajia . If you can't (almost impossible ) , please write poems cos I have missed your poems. If your muse isn't flowing, please play games. That's more worthy than discussion with a close minded person that is just reading about fallacies and its types and barely comprehend what he reads.

My 2kobo

Lol, no free time o, but your suggestions are on point, especially, the hajia part and I do not know what is drying my writing ink, I have been suspecting you , you now write better than I do , I need motivation and inspiration! By the way, I have been finding it difficult to play games these days o, I think I have game apathy!

AlBaqir:



Sino, there are lots of challenges on this thread we've put before you and you continue dribbling around them sweeping them under the carpet. Brother, am not ready for cycle arguments.


# Again, which one do you subscribe? Literalism or metaphoric meaning? State your position and stop chasing shadows in our case.

Bros, my stand is that which your Imam had explained, which I have also corroborated with other narrations all from the Imams!

I asked a simple question, provide evidence from the Imams that you should do this interpretation of Allah's attributes metaphorically as you do, and I'm yet to see such! You keep bringing unnecessary arguments! The narrations I have brought so far has same information as those found in the sunni narrations, and i am yet to see the Imams deny these attributes or explain them any differently as the sunnis, the reason I am particular for you to bring evidences from the Imams.

Again, if you do not have proofs from the Imams, then you are not following the Imams! No matter the epistle you want to write, if you cannot provide the evidences that I seek, then you should check yourself and your claim to be a follower of the ahl-l-bayt!

Well, I have read through your responses, in order not to be going in circles, I have only selected your posts that needs my response...

tintingz:


Homosexuality was seen as mental illness in the past because the research were not properly done, I quoted that out in a link in my previous post.

Science have shown Homosexuality is normal and natural and doesn't have negative psychological effect.

Please provide the scientific evidence that shows that homosexuality is normal...

tintingz:

All these are irrelevant, research changes and evolve, the person that made the claim Paul Cameron has been condemned, disown by the association of sociology committee for poor and weak methodology which he published, he's not a sociologist, what then is your argument?

I'm sure you didn't read properly, go back to my quote and read the reference there! This isn't about Paul Cameron, but facts with regards to increase in HIV/AIDS amongst homosexuals, if that is not a risk to public health, I wonder what is...

tintingz:

The quote below is from an authorized world body.

Twenty two years ago, on May 17, the World Health Assembly removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders when it approved a new version of the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10).

"Since homosexuality is not a disorder or a disease, it does not require a cure. There is no medical indication for changing sexual orientation," said PAHO Director Dr. Mirta Roses Periago.

The PAHO statement notes that there is a professional consensus that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality and cannot be regarded as a pathological condition.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120523040848/http://new.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6803&Itemid=1926

Some diseases maybe linked mostly with homosexuals but research have change.

That a world organization says something doesn't make them right, I have asked you to provide the empirical evidence to support this claim, it is not about quoting stories, you need to bring the evidences!

tintingz:


Lol, what you posted is the opposite of your premise.

The underline made it clearer.

What you posted is like how Science predict and assume things then do findings about it.

You said evidence is base from your beliefs, this is not quite right! Evidence proves a belief or support a belief.

What's belief?

> Belief : an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

> Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.

Belief is just a state of mind or opinion that something is true with or without evidence, if you base evidence from beliefs then anything can be true even without empirical evidence or when your evidence is not even an evidence or proof. E.g Superman exist because there are lots of comics, books about Superman, that's my evidence from my beliefs.

So how will someone with such belief be open minded?

First of all, I informed you that I provide evidence based on my beliefs, while defining (or explaining) belief above, you added that beliefs can be with or without evidence, so i ask you, if my belief (which is Islam), does have evidences (obviously, I did mention the Qur'an), then tell me why I cannot make such statement that my evidence is based on my beliefs?!

Secondly, you overlooked my first quote, that would have guided you in your response. Isn't it self defeating to use superman and COMIC books as an example?! Regardless, if I do belief that superman exist, and my evidences are the comic books or any book that states so, then what is expected of you, if truly you are open-minded is to study these evidences to ascertain the veracity!

Thirdly, the purpose of being open-minded is to get to the truth! You do not make mockery of other peoples' beliefs, using stereotypes and prejudiced opinions and wouldn't even try to understand the reasons put forward and then claim you are open-minded! You've already made up your mind about my beliefs!

Lastly, I'll quote again: "Let not men think there is no truth but in the sciences that they study or the books that they read. To prejudge other men’s notions before we have looked into them is not to show their darkness but to put out our own eyes." (Locke, 1966, p. 38)

tintingz:

Can you provide evidence Allah exist being the creator and not Brahma?

Show me that Allah is the one outside the universe.

I told you before, my responses are not meant for you to accept my beliefs! You have said my belief is absurd, ridiculous etc. You sure know better than I do so, what I want from you is the evidences for what caused the universe? what caused life? what is the purpose of life? what is after death? why are we here with intelligence?! Are we just to live and die?! Why?! Why is there good and bad?! Why does these negative things happen in this world?! Why is the world not fair to us?!

tintingz:

Some of your projections against me are,

1. I don't have sense of morality
2. No one cares about my good deeds
3. I'm hopeless

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

Tu quoque or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

This is really interesting....

1. "I don't have sense of morality"

I'm sure I said you do not have any standard of morality, and this was due to your responses...You claimed that morality in reality is subjective, and what is ideal should be objective morality...

Let me now turn the tables, this is what you wrote about me:

Lmao, I'm good and I know I'm good because I make use of my empathy which is natural innate in me, that's sincerity.

But you are only good because a book told you so and dictate to you how to be good lol , you're good because you fear wrath of Allah, you fear going to hell forever, your goodness is base on fear not natural/empathy.

The bold suggests that I do not have sense of morality except a book tells me, and this actually contradicts your assertions that empathy is innate! I sure asked, does the fact that I follow a standard of morality set by Islam, automatically means I do not have empathy?! By the way, research shows that religious people show empathy more than irreligious folks!

So who is projecting?!

2. "No one cares about my good deed"

Should this even be part of this list?!

Anyway, I only asked a question based on your responses, you claim to be good, and I asked why, who cares that you are good?! Remember, you claimed morality is subjective, you do not believe in an afterlife of a reward or punishment, hence your good deeds are only for your worldly self! If you do not donate your hard-earned money for charity, would the orphans and less privileged in the society sue you?! If you do donate, what do you gain from that?!

So what am I denying and what am I projecting?!

3. "I'm hopeless"

Why do you keep talking about the negative things happening in this world?! Does these negative things happening make sense to you? Do you have hope in seeing your loved ones after death?! What does death mean to you?! What are you living for?! Why are you here, living and not dead?

And thank you for the definitions, I'll keep them handy...But I'll advise that you read your own responses on here, and see where you have fallen into those fallacies, I've given you one already!

tintingz:

You should be bothered about Yahweh throwing you inside hell forever!

You see, Yahweh is God, and God revealed the Bible and the Qur'an! I believe in both books! Both talk about worshiping God alone! As I said, you shouldn't be bothered about such issues.

tintingz:
Lol, I'm only pointing out the absurdity in believing in your God, no one knows what caused the universe, even religions are conflicting as what caused the universe.

You haven't provided evidence how Allah is the cause of the universe and not Brahma.

It's better to be Agnostic to that position than believing in some ancient mythologies.

Okay, you are right! Your better answer is that you do not have an answer! And I absolutely agree!

tintingz:

Omg!

Empathy is natural, it's nature, it evolve just like our intellects, how the society understand humans and it values in the past is different to our era. Slavery was seen as normal practice in the past even during your Prophets time, but humans keep evolving in intellects and the practice of slavery was later abolished, it's a criminal offenses to engage in slave trade in this era.

The UN and other consensus organizations are example of how we evolve in moral codes, there's nothing like UN in the past, so many wars were fought.

So the slave masters lacked empathy back then or their empathy was not fully developed?! While the slaves where indifferent, they accepted that being slaves is good and normal too?! Did the slave trade end due to sudden realization by the slave masters that they now have empathy?!

And after the establishment of the UN, the world is now at peace?! America, a member of the UN, invaded Iraq based on lies, killed millions of innocent and children, and the UN did what exactly?! I ask again, what would be the consequences for not towing the line of this consensus objective morality?! What happens if I can get away with murder or any other crime?! Can this consensus stop the evil that men do?! Since life is all about survival of the fittest, why should anyone care about what they do to survive?!

Bro, what you have just written here only give credence to the fact that those who control the society dictates what morality should be and not empathy!

tintingz:

Ghost of cseazer!

Empathy is innate, society set laws and it changes from time to time, it's not stagnant like the laws in your holy book. Someone who murder lack empathy, it's a murder case.

Imagine you Time travel back to the stone age, observe how they behave and merge it with your intellects, that explain evolution.

So you are saying in essence, that regardless of your innate personal empathy, which dictates your morality, the society can overrule it?! SO IF A SOCIETY SAYS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS EVIL, WHY SHOULD YOU FAULT THEM?! Again, is it possible to act without empathy?! One would have thought that, the way you place emphasis on empathy, one can never go against it, it is all the same in everyone and it can never be influenced!

You have only been able to show that you follow what the society dictates as moral regardless of what you think/feel should be moral, and you should know that this moral dictates are majorly influenced by those who control the apparatus of the society! This would explain the slave trade and other social construct of the past!

tintingz:

Your pseudo-logic is alarming.

A teacher has empathy, a student has empathy, if the student fail, this means the student score is poor, this is a regulations set by the school which is known and agree by all students, why should the student feel the teacher is wicked when he knows he performed poorly? If the student is so sure he/she did well, there are provions set down to review examination scripts.

Now let's reverse it, the student put himself in the teacher's position, marking script and grading it, would it be justifiable to pass does who performed poorly, what standard is he portraying, it's even risky as he can loose his job. If a student reason this way then he's using his empathy.

Read carefully, there is a law in the land, legislated to help promote the family system, protect life and sustain humanity, the law has been able to establish the fact that what you do is not normal. You know fully well of this law, yet flaunt it. Why should you now feel the law is wicked?! If you are so sure what you are doing is normal, it shouldn't be difficult to prove! Is the male sexual organ meant for the anus?! What sort of evolution or progress would make you believe that you should use your head to walk?!

Now let's reverse it, you are to legislate laws to protect the family system, protect life and sustain humanity, would it be justifiable to allow those who pose danger to the afore-mentioned exhibit their abnormal activities in the society you want to protect?! Wouldn't it be reasonable to make such abnormal activity unattractive in the said society?!

tintingz:

Where is it stated in the Quran to treat homosexuals as mental/psychological issue? The report of homosexuals killed in muslim countries, how did that happen?

FYI, the cause of homosexuality is not certainly known, it also has biological factors.

Scientists do not know what determines an individual's sexual orientation, but they theorize that it is caused by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences, and do not view it as a choice. They favor biologically-based theories, which point to genetic factors, the early uterine environment, both, or the inclusion of genetic and social factors. Hypotheses for the impact of the post-natal social environment on sexual orientation, however, are weak, especially for males.
While some people believe that homosexual activity is unnatural, scientific research has shown that homosexuality is a normal and natural variation in human sexuality and is not in and of itself a source of negative psychological effects.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

There are many natural phenomena that's not suppose to be part of our natural world, chaotic phenomena is still part of nature, there's nothing we can do about it.

Islam establishes that one who is mentally disturbed is not responsible for their acts, hence no punishment is established on them, until they gain sanity. Mental health like any other health issues are treated by the professionals accordingly. Also, before anyone is killed by an Islamic State, incontrovertible evidence must be established!

As I had pointed out, not until few decades ago, it is widely accepted that homosexuality is indeed a psychological/mental illness, but due to the society's "evolution" it is now being accepted, and pushed by those who control the society! They have employed all the apparatus to influence you, the reason you are bringing the above inconclusive theories! You sure know that it is wrong to put things where they do not belong, you do not have any excuses or advantages for this behaviour other than satisfying selfish desires! But since the society says it is normal (without conclusive science), you accept it. Even if it is proved to be genetic, is down syndrome not also genetic or any other genetic diseases?! What if scientist can prove psychopaths lack empathy due to genetics, or environmental factors, do we accept them as normal too?! And would it justify their actions?! And by the way, if someone lacks empathy, whose fault is it?!

tintingz:

Lol, Paul Cameron made this report in the 80s which was criticized and debunked by Scientists, infact he's known to have errors and lies in his reports.

> http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron.html

> An APA spokesperson told The Boston Globe in 2005, "We are concerned about Dr. Cameron because we do believe that his methodology is weak."

> 1986 the American Sociological Association passed a resolution stating, “The American Sociological Association officially and publicly states that Paul Cameron is not a sociologist, and condemns his consistent misrepresentation of sociological research.”This was based on a report from the ASA's Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cameron

Next time know the background status and latest report of the person you use for your argument.

The article I presented is still on a reputable peer reviewed journal, that one of the author was criticized doesn't affect the paper, else it would have been withdrawn! Also, there are other researches that corroborates the conclusion from that paper! When you understand what it means for your paper to be published on such platform, then you would come with a better response than the above!

From 2002-2011, the annual number of HIV diagnoses decreased in persons with infection attributed to injection drug use or to heterosexual contact (Table 1). Diagnoses attributed to male-to-male sexual contact remained stable overall, increasing among males aged 13-24, 45-54, and 55 years or older, and decreasing among males aged 35-44 years (Table 2). The largest change (132.5%; EAPC = 10.5) was observed among males aged 13-24 years.

Johnson AS, Hall HI, Hu X, Lansky A, Holtgrave DR, Mermin J. Trends in Diagnoses of HIV Infection in the United States, 2002-2011. JAMA. 2014;312(4):432–434. doi:10.1001/jama.2014.8534

An extensive study in the Netherlands undermines the assumption that homophobia is the cause of increased psychiatric illness among gays and lesbians. The Dutch have been considerably more accepting of same-sex relationships than other Western countries — as evidenced by the fact that they have recognized a legal right to same-sex marriage since December of 2000. Consequently, a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with homosexual behavior in the Netherlands cannot be attributed to social rejection and homophobia alone.

[b]The Dutch study, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, did indeed find a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with same-sex behavior. Compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interview, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence. In fact, those with a history of homosexual contact had higher rates of nearly all psychiatric pathologies measured in the study.5 The researchers found “that homosexuality is not only associated with mental health problems during adolescence and early adulthood, as has been suggested, but also in later life.”6 Researchers actually fear that methodological features of “the study might underestimate the differences between homosexual and heterosexual people.”[/b]

The Dutch researchers concluded, “this study offers evidence that homosexuality is associated with a higher prevalence of psychiatric disorders. The outcomes are in line with findings from earlier studies in which less rigorous designs have been employed.” The researchers offered no opinion as to whether homosexual behavior causes psychiatric disorders, or whether it is the result of psychiatric disorders.

Source

You may seek the criticism of all the authors of the above researches, be my guest!

tintingz:

Lol, killing homosexuals is protecting lifes, what an irony!

Someone that said his evidence is base on his beliefs is open-minded, right?

I'm simply presenting the absurdity of Religions and believing in a fairy master in the sky, if you find it as mockery that's your cup of tea.

You have also projected my position with so many fallacious statement, I can post them if you want.

But then Hell exist to burn people eternally for thier choices your God caused... Contradictions upon contradictions.

Why do you think stringent punishment are made for some crimes?! If you are a reasonable fellow, would you commit a crime when you know the consequences?! And if you do commit the crime, would you do such in the open?! Would the society not be safer?! Your answers explains the protection of life & lives!

What is evidence, and what is belief?

What is the purpose of being open-minded?!

"Let not men think there is no truth but in the sciences that they study or the books that they read. To prejudge other men’s notions before we
have looked into them is not to show their darkness but to put out our own eyes." (Locke, 1966, p. 38)

"Believing at the outset that a particular view is correct (or mistaken) is not inconsistent with a genuine desire for knowledge, provided that we regard the belief we hold as revisable in the light of emerging evidence, endeavor to ensure that the belief in question does not distort our inquiries, and remain prepared to adjust our initial opinion in accordance with the findings." (Hare, W. (2011), Helping open-mindedness flourish. Journal of Thought p.12)

Thus far, you are yet to provide evidences with enough merit for me to revise my beliefs, you yourself claimed to be agnostic about the fundamental questions posed earlier, you make mockery of my beliefs because you are unwilling to seek the truth about my evidences! Making mockery doesn't have any intellectual benefit, it only portrays you as being ignorant and closed-minded!

Projections?! please post them let us see!

You shouldn't be bothered about hell, let those who profess faith bother about such! But one thing you can never deny is that you are definitely responsible for your own decisions and actions!

AlBaqir:


# You can see the tawil of your scholars and salafs but you hate ours doing their's.


In short, according to your manhaj in line with the opinion of your salaf and ulama above, you will see God in Qiyamat but not in an "encompassing" manner; meaning you can only see "part" of Allah and not His whole. No wonder your hadith say:

1. You will see God like you see the full moon. of course you can only see part of the moon and not the whole moon

2. Abu Huraira alleging you will recognize Allah by a sign on His leg.


The height of error of this assumption is that you have defined Allah to be a compound (murakab) consisting of various parts. Obviously anything with this description has size and dimension and will occupy a space. No wonder you believe He resides in the 7th heaven and absent in others except He moves from one heaven to the other at a particular period of time.

Kindly tell me how that is not tashbih and tajsim

You are well known for being imaginative and fiction happens to be your hubby! In your quest to being knowledgeable, you have equally fault Allah (SWT) using those attributes for Himself! The QUr'an was revealed in Arabic, the Prophet (SAW) was an Arab, are you meaning to say that Allah (SWT) using hand while you are interpreting it as power ought to have been appropriate?!

Kafi by Kulayni. vol 1, p 209:

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn Said from Fudala ibn Ayyub from abu a1-Maghra from Muhammad ibn Salim from Aban ibn Taghlib from abu Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following: “The Messenger of Allah has said, Whoever would want to live like my living, die like I will die and enter the garden of Eden that my Lord has planted with His own hands, he must love (acknowledge the Divine authority of) Ali (a.s.) ibn abu Talib. He must love (acknowledge the Divine authority of his successor) those who love him, be the enemy of his enemies and submit in obedience to his successors after him because they are of my family and my flesh and blood. Allah has given them my understanding and knowledge. I appeal to Allah and complain to Him about the case of my peoples dealings, their denying the virtue and excellence of the Imams from my family. I complain to Allah for their disregard of my relation with them. By Allah, they will murder my son (al-Husayn (a.s.). May Allah deprive them of my intercession.

Again show me where the Imam said it is not hands but power?! Is there no Arabic word for power?! Do humans not have power too?! Now I will refer you back to the narration about affirming without tashbih. Does affirming correlate with doing tawil?! Please provide evidences from the Imams and stop all these merry-go-round!

AlBaqir:


@bold, but your manhaj has the audacity to do tawil of the ayah: "Allah is with them wherever they are" saying it is His knowledge and not His Essence because His Essence resides in Heaven

Or this ayah: "And He is Allah in the heavens and in the Earth". Yet your manhaj has the ball to say "No, only His Essence resides in Heaven and not on earth".

And you hate us doing tawil of a clear ayah (Q.75: 22~23). You can see the depth of hypocrisy and double standard


OUR INTERPRETATION

Surah Al-Qiyam, Verse 22 - 23:
وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَّاضِرَةٌ
(Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

إِلَىٰ رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ
Looking to their Lord."


* Abu Huraira (alongside few other sahabah) narrated that Prophet allegedly says:

فَإِنَّكُمْ سَتَرَوْنَ رَبَّكُمْ كَمَا تَرَوْنَ الْقَمَرَ لَيْلَةَ الْبَدْرِ لاَ تُضَامُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَتِهِ
So verily, you (believers) shall see your Lord as you see the moon on the night of a full moon, you shall not crowd one another to see Him."

Sahih Tirmidhi; English reference : Vol. 4, Book 12, Hadith 2554; Arabic reference : Book 38, Hadith 2752; https://sunnah.com/urn/678600


With this verse influenced by the hadith, Salafi ideology maintained that the believers on the day of judgment shall be able to see Allah.

We say such ideology is not only wrong but also blasphemous. The interpretation of these verses is that those with brighten faces will be "looking to their Lord" joyfully anticipating the reward of their righteous deeds.


# The next two verses prove our interpretations.

 Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 24 - 25:

وَوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَاسِرَةٌ
And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

تَظُنُّ أَن يُفْعَلَ بِهَا فَاقِرَةٌ

Expecting that there will be done to them [something] backbreaking."

Therefore, it is about expectations (looking forward to see rewards) not "seeing or looking at God".

I have already given you an appropriate response to your confusion, while you still feign ignorance of what we stand for as regards the interpretation of the verses you bring forth, I simply request that you provide evidences from your Imams! And up till now, you haven't! I will help you do the needful!

Shia shaykh al-Barqi narrated in his “al-Mahasin” (p 60), and shaykh Azizullah al-Utardi quoted from him in “Musnad ar-Rida” (1/95):

From Abul Hasan al-Rida (alaihi salam): Who wants to look at Allah without obstacle and Allah looks at him without obstacle, let him to befriend with family of Muhammad and be (far) away from their enemies, and follow Imam of believers from amongst them, (and if he would do that) in the doomsday[b] Allah would look at him without obstacle and he would look at Allah without obstacle.[/b]

Below you would see some quotes from one of the most authentic shia books “Sahifa sajadiya al-kamila”. That’s a book of prays that attributed to imam Ali ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib[4th Shia Imam) (may Allah be pleased with all of them).

In the chapter “The Whispered Prayer of the Lovers ” we can read

My God, place us with him whom Thou hast chosen for Thy nearness and Thy friendship, purified through Thy affection and Thy love, given yearning for the meeting with Thee, made pleased with Thy decree, granted gazing upon Thy face, shown the favour of Thy good pleasure, given refuge from separation from Thee and Thy loathing, settled in a sure sitting place in Thy neighbourhood, singled out for true knowledge of Thee, made worthy for worship of Thee, whose heart Thou hast captivated with Thy will, whom Thou hast picked for contemplating Thee, whose look Thou hast made empty for Thee, whose breast Thou hast freed for Thy love, whom Thou hast made desirous of what is with Thee, inspired with Thy remembrance, allotted thanksgiving to Thee, occupied with obeying Thee, turned into one of Thy righteous creatures, chosen for whispered prayer to Thee, and from whom Thou hast cut off all things which cut him off from Thee!

Shia book, Sahifa Sajjadiya, In chapter “The Whispered Prayer of those asking for Mediation” you can read

My God, I have no mediation with Thee but the tender acts of Thy clemency, nor any way to come to Thee but the gentle favours of Thy mercy and the intercession of Thy Prophet, the prophet of mercy, who rescued the community from confusion. Make these two my tie to attaining Thy forgiveness and let them take me to triumph through Thy good pleasure! My hope has dismounted in the sacred precinct of Thy generosity, my craving has alighted in the courtyard of Thy munificence. So actualize my expectation from Thee, seal my works with good, and place me among Thy selected friends, those whom Thou hast set down in the midst of Thy Garden, and settled in the abode of Thy honour, whose eyes Thou hast gladdened by gazing upon Thee on the day of meeting Thee, and whom Thou hast made heirs to the sure stations in Thy neighbourhood!

Sahi book Sahifa Sajjadiya, in chapter “The Whispered Prayer of the Abstainers” you can read

My God, induce us to renounce it and keep us safe from it by Thy giving success and Thy preservation from sin. Strip from us the robes of opposing Thee, attend to our affairs through Thy good sufficiency, amplify our increase from the boundless plenty of Thy mercy, be liberal in our gifts from the overflow of Thy grants, plant in our hearts the trees of Thy love, complete for us the lights of Thy knowledge, give us to taste the sweetness of Thy pardon and the pleasure of Thy forgiveness, gladden our eyes on the day of meeting Thee with the vision of Thee, dislodge the love of this world from our spirits, just as Thou hast done for the righteous, Thy selected friends, and for the pious, those whom Thou hast singled out! O Most Merciful of the merciful, O Most Generous of the most generous!

So are you telling me that the Imams failed to explain these eyes seeing their Lord?! Why not bring evidences from the Imams that intepreted the ayah as you have done?! You should know that I would rather accept what the Imam says than what you say! From what I have presented so far, there is actually no difference between what the Imams believe and what Ahlu Sunnah believe!