tintingz:
I know it's real, how do you know it isn't real?

Although I have answered you multiple times, but let's turn this around...

Okay, I acknowledge as you claim that you are seeing an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit, I can't argue with what you claim to experience and believe to be true! Can you now with your philosophical argumentations prove to me that what you see is real and not imagined?! I mean with your skepticism, prove what you claim here exist and real?! Do you doubt what you claim to see is real?!

Was your Prophet psychotic?

No, he wasn't.

If there's a first cause, what's it?

Lol, this is a silly question to ask a Muslim In an Islamic section!

whitelotus:


I just wen through that thread and It was an eyesore. Tintingz made a good point about the perfect creator, and you muslims went to attack him rather than addressing the points.
You especially went on a witch-hunt against his scepticism, as if scepticism is a bad thing.

Congratulations!

tintingz:


How did you know an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit doesn't exist in space?

This is a good example of your plight... You are asking me about what you know isn't real, because you just imagined it, now you want to argue about it?!

Can we say your Prophet was psychotic when he sees angels and rode on flying donkey and even believe a bowl of meal pray for forgiveness?

Are you claiming to be seeing an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit?!

- And correction at bolded, a first cause may exist(it can be anything, it can be an invisible winged alien rabbit), doesn't equate to god talkless of Allah. Allah is in the same category with the winged rabbit.

Yeah, this brings me to another fundamental knowledge you don't need philosophical argumentations for. If I told you that a carpenter with no medical help and training, performed an open heart surgery, would you believe?! How can you then claim that the first cause for all that exist can be anything, and going further to even say an invisible winged alien rabbit is looney and ludicrous!

You do not know, you are not sure, you are in doubts, and you are questioning everything... This is the perpetual uncertainty you are afflicted with and you my friend are on the fringes...

@tintingz

I suggest you go through this thread again to refresh your memory and quit this false information you are parading here! While at it, read up on radical skepticism and educate yourself on Islamic approach to understanding knowledge in terms of critical thinking and deep reflections of the universe which revolutionised the scientific world!

You think the advancement in the world is based on this your daily criticism of Islam and Muslims?! I laugh in mandarin

tintingz:


Epistemology, Ontology Philosophy Is not your thing obviously and not most Muslims thing.

Well there's an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit in space, don't doubt nor question it, it's there.

You know what you imagined up here does not exist, you don't need philosophical argumentations to know for certain that what you just imagined doesn't exist! Well except, you are really psychotic you may start employing all the tools of your radical skepticism to doubt...

When it comes to the existence of God, the creator of the universe, you have admitted in some of our exchanges that you do not know, and I say in that your response, there is that possibility of a creator of the universe! So God and your imaginary friend are not on the same level when it comes to what exist and what doesn't.

One of the certainty deep down in all individual for example, is the fact that it is impossible for something to exist in our world without being caused, so you will always look dumb if you for example claim that the iPhone had no inventor, you know, just came to existence by itself! You do not need philosophical argumentations to know that is nonsense, so how come you believe that your existence was not caused or the earth or the universe?!

Rashduct4luv:


Jazaak Allahu khayran bro.

Wa antum fa jazakumullahu khayran.

Rashduct4luv:


I think we all should leave you alone to wallow in your frustrations!

It's like you're sick and tired of some Muslims so you think you can transfer that aggression online to other Muslims.

Lost course!

Answer him once he'll always look for another loophole to comment on! He is never satisfied with any answer!

@bold, I had one time interrogated his purpose on here with his numerous posts (which are mostly questions), and he answered that he would like us to be skeptics... Aside from some of his inane responses and turning logic on its head, he is fully into the rabbit hole of radical skepticism! For every rational explanation you provide, he is skeptical and would bring up more doubts, and the process would continue, except you leave him at his state of perpetual skepticism. Once the fundamental knowledge about our reality are in doubt and such doubts have metamorphosed into a 'belief system', then there is no amount of philosophical/rational arguments that would satisfy such an individual.

As Muslims, we can only present the true and
fundamental knowledge of God, our purpose and reality based on the Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet (SAW) to these individuals, it is left to them to be sincere with themselves or continue in their state of perpetual uncertainty.

My disposition to atheist who won't stop arguing and always seek physical evidence for God, or something of sorts, at the end of the day is the verse of the Qur'an below :

"Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting."" (Qur'an 6:158)

Xmuslim:


You may look at it from another perspective sir.

You preach to non Muslim because you are trying to save them from eternal hell. Likewise, we are preaching to you, because we are trying to save you from lies and dogma of religion.

We are all doing jihad but in different ways

Lol, save us from lies and dogma of religion cos we would regret such at what point?! Abeg educate us, is it when we die?!

When you were a Muslim, you called to believe in Allah and worship, now you call to the believe in nothing. Well, believe in nothing apparently doesn't have anything, and thus you have nothing to promote your unbelief with, you are stuck with bashing faith and those who believe. At the end of the day, your unbelief leads to nothing, pure emptiness! No value, totally nothing! The fact is, if you really have found something special (beneficial), you all would have moved on, you would rather be engaged in discussing this special thing, but you guys can't!

Wouldn't it be strange if a supposed wealthy individual keeps talking about poverty and when asked to give alternatives/solutions, he keeps bashing poverty (poverty na bastard) rather than talking about wealth creation?! If you are wise, you would know such a supposed wealthy person is a fraud! "Awon eyan hushpuppy!"


"It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss." (Qur'an 35:39)

" Say, "Shall we invoke instead of Allah that which neither benefits us nor harms us and be turned back on our heels after Allah has guided us? [We would then be] like one whom the devils enticed [to wander] upon the earth confused, [while] he has companions inviting him to guidance, [calling], 'Come to us.' " Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance; and we have been commanded to submit to the Lord of the worlds." (Qur'an 6:71)

O ga o, after you guys have left Islam and disbelieved in God, you all still find a way to blame Islam and God that according to you doesn't exist, for all your disbeliefs?! Incredible!

You all will quote and quote to suit your confirmation bias...

When Muslims quote other verses that shows Allah's Mercy, and how eager to accept repentance of those who sincerely do, regardless of their atrocities, you would ignore, because you guys aren't ready for any useful discussion, but rather prove your disbeliefs!

You guys aren't being ingenious with all these your lamentations and rants about religion and God, same old stuff, it's so boring!

Xmuslim:
you are entitled to your opinion.

Allah use our 24hrs to calculate fasting and many other thing, but when hadith fails, he doesn't use our 24hrs

So which time is he using when descending to lower earth in the last part of the night. Muhammad even said Allah leaves by fajr. So which time is he using . I'm sure you would observe nawafil and prayer during those time thinking Allah is listening to you at the lowest heaven. Common, this is too simple sir.

Now the flat earth argument I brought. The hadith would not have any problem if the earth is flat, because Allah would come and go by fajr as indicated in the hadith. But now that the earth is spherical, Allah will have to go to another country's lowest heaven once he finish with Nigeria, and this will repeat itself till eternity. Thus, Allah would be living in the lowest heaven forever. From Nigeria to Canada to USA to Jamaica to Italy and so on.

If you still don't get it, I'm sorry I can't explain more than this.

I would gladly accept defeat if I were you. But the difference between us is that you have accepted that every sahih hadith are from Muhammad and Muhammad can never make mistakes because he receives guidance from Allah. So I understand why you are fighting so hard to defend the undefendable error in the hadith. I wish you good luck sir

If I sound insultive forgive me pls. I don't mean it

As I said earlier, you guys are parochial in your assumptions about God and how God should be or do.

I brought a verse to show you that time as we know it is different on earth to what can be applied to God. Not only that, God is the creator of time! For a fact, time on earth is different from that in other planets in our solar system... But you are fixated on what you want to prove and hence you would always ignore these facts... Be open-minded, it doesn't mean you should accept Islam or God!

I have not asked you to believe anything, of course you are entitled to your opinion, as it is what it is, just your opinion. But when it comes to facts about my religion, I'll present them and keep presenting them whenever I feel like it in response to you.

Again, your conclusion on flat earth from the hadith is flawed based on the fact that you are simply equating how humans perceive time and travel with that of the divine! (false equivalence) It is that simple! Your submission on how God would have to be going from one country to another simply means you do not have a proper understanding /information about God, and that is no surprise here, else why would you be an atheist.

Isn't it farfetched and ironic that just from a single hadith you conclude that the Prophet Muhammad (Saw) thought the earth was flat when Muslims from the 11th century and even beyond had concluded that the earth was round based on the Qur'an and mathematics and used this knowledge to calculate the Qibla for the 5 daily prayers?!

Well, this shows that Muslims aren't parochial in their thought processes and do not make assumptions about people's thoughts based on a single information that isn't explicit!

Well, it is what it is, as they say, 'Nemo dat quod non habet'

Xmuslim:


Bro, the matter is too simple for any sincere person to see the flaw in the hadith. Nothing like befit his majesty here.

The obvious truth is this - Muhammad claim Allah descend to the lowest heaven and stay there till day break. What further explanation do you need to see that Muhammad thought the earth was flat.

If anything could be interpreted to mean anything, then the whole thing is meaningless.

We can as well agree with the Christian that Allah begot son the it befit his majesty. We can also agree that Allah requires intermidiary gods (such as sango, ogun etc) before he could connect with human and of course in the way it befit it majesty.

Because the Prophet (SAW) said Allah descends to the lower heaven every last part of the night till day break, then automatically, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) thought that the earth is flat?! Wow, see reasoning! You even claim it is the obvious truth!

The facts of the matter here is that you ignored the salient point that time and space are concepts that do not apply to God the same way they apply to humans on earth! So any form of conclusion you bring is flawed! This much has been established from the Qur’an! Allah (SWT) Says:

"And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count." (Qur'an 22:47)

This verse alone renders all your submissions null! What is most obvious is that day and night is only peculiar to us humans, here on earth, and thus any reference to this in the hadith (the Qur'an also establishes this fact) in question was and is specific to us humans (Muslims) and how best to use our time and not Allah (SWT). The descent is said to be in heaven, well, except you have further information on the time zones in the heavens....

You would see that my arguments are not based on interpreting anything to mean anything, that is not what Islam teaches, I made reference and brought evidence from the Qur’an! So interpreting anything to mean anything is alien to Islam.

Sigh!

How do you guys always come up with this redundant questions based on parochial assumptions on what God should be and do?!

You always claim to be a former Muslim at any given opportunity even when unnecessary to state, but the very basic things Islam teaches about God is always neglected/forgotten just to prove whatever preconceived misconceptions you hold on to. God is the creator of the heavens and earth, the universe, time and space, in fact, God mentions in the Qur'an how distinct our perception of time is from that of the divine, but here we are, asking to know how God can descend to all part of the world at different time zones... Really?

Hello! We do not call upon a deity that is confined to the dictates of His creation, else why would such a deity be worthy of being God?!

What we believe is God descends the way that befits His divine majesty and grandeur. God does whatever He Wills and that is why He is the creator, and no creation of His can confine Him and that includes time and space!

Xmuslim:


Well, I would like us to conclude here to avoid back and forth. We can agree to our disagreement anyway. But my concerns are:

1. One may think he's sure of something today, but may have a reason to doubt it tomorrow. One may embrace Islam today base on the available evidence, but the evidence may become void tommorow. In this way, we should not hold him back. But unfortunately, Islam doesn't give such room.

I was once very convinced about Islam and I even encouraged friends and family to practice sunni form of Islam to avoid eternal hell. However, as I grow older, new knowledge and exposure to the loop holes in the Qur'an and hadith lead me out of the religion.


2. Regarding the children, Islam want us to beat a 10yrs old child if he refuse to offer solat. I don't see this as a good thing. I think it's enforcement of the religion to the child. If such child grow up with that indoctrination and one day realised the false in the religion, the law in the Islamic country does not permit him to renounce the faith (which was forced on his throat while young).

I don't want to write much, but I see no freedom in forcing religion on the kids that are innocent

To agree to disagree? Of course, I can't force you to change the way you choose and want to see things, mine is to just convey the facts about my religion, Islam!

The following Qur'an verses addresses this:

"He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian." (Qur'an 4:80)

"And they say, "[We pledge] obedience." But when they leave you, a group of them spend the night determining to do other than what you say. But Allah records what they plan by night. So leave them alone and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." (Qur'an 4:81)


" We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat."(Qur'an 50:45)

" And whether We show you part of what We promise them or take you in death, upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account." (Qur'an 13:40)

" Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for [the benefit of] his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager over them." (Qur'an 39:41)

Whenever I see someone who claims to have been a Muslim and now has lost his faith, the below narration comes to my mind...

It is reported on the authority of Anas that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him ) said:

"There are three qualities for which anyone who is characterised by them will relish the sweetness of faith: he to whom Allah and His Messenger are dearer than all else; he who loves a man for Allah's sake alone; and he who has as great an abhorrence of returning to unbelief after Allah has rescued him from it as he has of being cast into Hell." (Muslim)

Come to think of it, personally, I haven't come across a non believer who revert to Islam after research and studying, then later leave the religion and afterwards, starts denigrating or condemning the religion...

Anyway, as enshrined in Islam, "to you your 'religion' and to me my religion." (Qur'an 109:6)

Many thanks.

Xmuslim:


Although I know your view does not necessarily represent the law of apostacy in Saudi, Pakistan, Malaysia etc where one will be killed for just leaving the religion.
However, judging from one of your analogy about Jews and non-Muslim that wish to embrace Islam. You Saud they should study the deen and be very sure before they embrace it. Let me ask you these sir

1. If a non-Muslim come to you that he wish to be a Muslim. Will you tell him that he should go and study Islam very well before accepting it, because once he join, he cannot leave. He will be killed if he attempt to leave.

2. Did you allow your children to study Islam very well, before imposing it on them? . If you don't have children now, will you force your children to pray at 10yrs (by beating them if they refuse?.

I have quoted Saudi Jurists as well as traditional scholars of Islam...

1. The reasoning for a law with historical precedence has been established, except the non-Muslim has ulterior motives to join Islam, accepting a religion as a way of life should be based on strong convictions that it is the truth...Be that as it may, I have already established that Islam isn't forced on anyone, and as a former Muslim that you claim, you should know of the stories of the Prophets (Peace be upon them all). Even in the Qur'an Allah would command the Prophet (SAW) to only convey the message and not force them to accept the religion. Prophet Muhammed's (SAW) uncle was a kafir, and even though the Prophet (SAW) wanted him to accept Islam passionately, he didn't force him not even at his death bed! Prophet Nuh's son was a kafir, he didn't force him, he even prayed that he be saved...Prophet Lut's wife was also of the disbelievers, he didn't force her to accept the religion...You are not forced to become a Muslim or remain one.

2. Children upbringing is one of the crucial responsibility of a parent, and teaching them Islam is obligatory as this is the basis of distinguishing right from wrong in a Muslim family...There are rules and guidelines and as I have already pointed out to you above, Islam isn't forced on anyone, even children...Until a child reaches puberty, the child isn't responsible for his/her actions, as such the responsibility falls on the parent to guide them, and discipline them when necessary, they need to learn that there are consequences for their actions... Beating as a form of discipline in Islam has rules and regulation, first of all, it should be the last resort, and you do not hit the face, sensitive/private parts, leave a mark not to talk of bodily harm...From all indications, it is meant to be symbolic, to show displeasure...Of course people get angry and do the opposite, and this is sinful, but our best example is from the Prophet (SAW) and he was reported to never have beaten any child...

tintingz:


This is the nonsense response of yours, you posted it in between my post.



Atleast you agree with the intolerance among Muslims.

Ha! Taiwo ti binu old age must have caused the mix-up

Oh you still want to be 'breaking bread' with those you denigrate their way of life and make a mockery of their revered figures on a daily basis?! That's a bit rich coming from you my friend...

IMAliyu:

Maybe simple wasn't the right word 'lazy' may had been more fitting.

I'm aware of most of this history.

The fact is majority of Muslims, just like any other people are good people that don't really want to harm anyone.
And a minority are usually the bad people and they will use any means they can to justify their actions and sometimes because of their conviction that they are the side of good can sometimes influence others.

A question is how do you differentiate the righteous scholars from the un-righteous ones?

The question is indeed a very important one, as the Prophet SAW was reported to have said, what he fears most for this ummah are the wicked scholars...

One most important factor is the fact that we have the best examples in the Prophet SAW, and thus, à scholar who follows the sunnah with a sound creed would most likely be righteous...

Al – Hasan Al-Basri-Allah have mercy on him- said:

“When a man sought knowledge, it would not be long before it could be seen in his humbleness, his sight, upon his tongue and his hands, in his prayer, in his speech and in his disinterest (zuhd) in worldly allurements. And a man would acquire a portion of knowledge and put it into practice, and it would be better for him than the world and all it contains-if he owned it he would give it in exchange for the hereafter.”
Ibn Al-Mubarak, Al-Zuhd wa Al-Raqa'iq Vol. 1 p. 156.




“The closer you come to the DEEN that much more you are supposed to become courteous, kind, generous, understanding and forgiving of others. That's what you are supposed to be.” Nouman Ali Khan

A red flag is when a group or a scholar is notorious for pronouncing others kaafir at every slightest opportunity.

Xmuslim:
@sino, apostasy does not threaten the government in any way. Even the Islamic government knows this. Take Saudi as a case study, even Muslim however knowledgeable cannot be the king of the country if he's not from the Royal family. Thus, a Muslim will be a threat if he think he's entitled to rule the country, but an apostate will not be a threat if he does not have such ambition.

I think the main reason why Muhammad gave the killing verdict is this: there were people that left the religion during the time of the Muhammad and he realised they were able to convince others out of Islam. Thus, he was threatened because it was a game of number during his time. The more the Muslim, the more the chance of victory. This is another reason why I think Islam isn't divine.


You will understand my analogy if you study the way the apostate is treated before his faith is decided in Islamic state.

1. He will be killed without the chance of repentance if he has spread negative words about Islam. For example if he point out fallacies in the Qur'an

2. He will be allowed to live if he hasn't spread negative words nor committed blasphemy provided he renounce his disbelief. Note that he will be monitored from that moment on.

No sane human will think that someone you made to renounce his disbelief at the point of gun did it directly from his heart.

Note: I understand that Saudi is not a perfect Islamic country, but they are the most Islamic country in the world at the moment.

Ibn al-Qayyim says:

“Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat not when facing kufr (disbelief). For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, or the elderly, nor the blind nor those worshippers who do not fight, rather we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allaah in dealing with the people of the earth, he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him or came under his authority via paying the jizya. This is what he used to instruct his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadeeth of Buraydah”. [“Ahkam Ahl al-Dhimmah”, 1/17].

Ibn Taymiyah says:
“The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr (disbelief) is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever”. ["As-Sarim Al-Maslool", 104].


Al-Sarakhsi Al-Hanafi writes in “Al-Mabsoot”:
“The original ruling (al-asl) is that the lives of Adam’s progeny are protected, and it will become permissible when they partake in battle. And when the war has ended by a truce, then the original ruling of protection applies gain”. ["Al-Mabsoot", 12/165].

Hafiz Ibn Taymiyah writes:
“Its narrated from Abu Hanifah that disbelief (kufr) is not a reason to kill someone and a person is fought for his muharabah (war against the muslims), so the person who is not a fighter should not be killed”. ["As-Sarim Al-Maslool", 247].

The above clearly explains my point from the beginning, that an apostate might be sentenced to death if his actions/activities are related to treason in an Islamic state!

Also with regards to your claim about the Prophet (SAW) and why the law on apostate was introduced and that you are compelled to renounce disbelief at gun point, please read:

Before the loss of data on Nairaland, I had posted documented proceeding of the conference of Riyad on Muslim doctrine and human rights in Islam, a conference which was held in 1972 between Saudi delegates and European commission of jurists.

In that report, it categorically stated that:

"Religious freedom to everyone and prohibition of any exercise of force in this respect, in response to God’s Sayings in the Glorious Qur’an: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” (Q2, 256) and “Wilt thou then compel mankind against their will to believe!” (Q10, 99). This sayings show how the use of pressure on man’s freedom is denounced."

Again, in the same report, apostasy was also mentioned, and explained...

Regarding the prohibition of a Muslim to change his religion and which is considered by a man alien to Islam to be also a restriction violating Article (18) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which gave every person the right to change his religion and on which the kingdom also gave its reservations at the time of the drafting of the charter, [b]we say that according to the reasoning of Islam, this is not a restriction on the freedom of every person to change his religion, but is the outcome of a historical incident. It was established to curb a Jewish conspiracy which was plotted in the early days of Islam when all the Arabs of the city of al Madinah Al Munawwara united themselves after an armed conflict between them caused by the Jewish refugees. The Jews then craftily thought to let some of them join Islam then renounce it in order to make the Arabs suspect their religion and be misled. A law originated from that incident preventing a Muslim from changing his religion and threatening to penalize him so that nobody could join Islam excepting after making rational and scientific study of its doctrines ending with his permanent acceptance of the Muslim creed. That was meant to cut off the way for evil men and their like of superficial people, under the threat of punishment, from joining Islam, for the sake of extirpating malicious elements who have been persisting in spreading evil on Earth.[/b]

It is clear from the reasoning of Islam respecting this point also that it does not spring from the logic of restriction of freedom but rather from logic of the curbing of the intrigues of the plotters who are addicted to the spread of evil in the world. Thus, this matter is purely an Islamic interpretation-Ijtihad-which is one of the requirements of freedom of opinion. It should not be opposed by a counter-interpretation, for everyone has his own interpretation of things, and we have our own interpretation which is supported by historical facts, and our concern on not letting anyone join Islam excepting those who believe in it in a positive and decisive manner. This shows the extent of sacredness attached to the faith which Islam does not allow to be superficial and subject to the misleading of evil persons.

If anyone was paying attention, I had stated that the shariah court MIGHT sentence an apostate to death if such criminality as treason can be deduced from his actions and activities...

tintingz:


I can boldly tell you an atheist that come out in southwest is in danger.

Anyways you just proved my point, if we're in Shari'a state I would have been killed, this is a threat meaning I'm only alive because we're not in an Islamic state! Ok, if we're in Shari'a state, you, AbdelKabir and others would want me killed right? Bala was imprisoned, your muslim brother wants me imprisoned too and forgotten?
This is a threat and any rational person will see it's.

Imagine having a debate and someone told you you show a lot of disbelieve that if we're in a Sharia state you would have been killed. That's an indirect threat, such person in his mind wants his opponent killed.


Majority Muslims are ready to kill non-believers, the only thing holding them in some countries is the lack of Sharia law to carry out their murder.

Keep twisting and turning...the worst anyone would do to you here is to shun you, family would disown you, but kill you?! lol, you have to bring evidence of such by Muslims in the SW!

IMAliyu:

I wouldn't like the government snooping in my private life and personal beliefs as long as it doesn't cause any trouble to others.
They might as well create a 'thought police' branch of the government while they are at it./s

There is a principle in Islam that state judgment is based on the apparent. Let me give you information from Islamic history:

"Abdur Rahman ibn Awf reported: He would patrol the city at night with Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and on one occasion they were walking when the lamp of a household caught their attention. They approached it until they heard loud voices inside the door. Umar grabbed the hand of Abdur Rahman and he said, “Do you know whose house this is?” He said no. Umar said, “This is the house of Rabi’ah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf, and they are inside drinking wine right now! What do you think?” Abdur Rahman said, “Indeed, I think we have done what Allah has prohibited for us. Allah Almighty said, ‘Do not spy,’ (49:12) and we have spied on them.” Umar turned away and he left them alone."

Source: al-Mustadrak 8198

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Dhahabi

Above gotten from Here

We have a rich history of how the Islamic state is run, from the Prophet (SAW) down to his companions, all we need to do is research more from sincere scholars and sources....

IMAliyu:

Fundamentalist thinking is just following aspects of the theology to their logical extremes.

It's far more intellectually easier to be a fundamentalist than to be an average Muslim.
Because fundamentalism like BH is just following a literalist (the simplest) approach to the religion rather than having someone trying to explain and interpret it for you in various different contexts.

The mindset is
Why do you oppose Western education = because it contradicts the Quran.
Why do you kill disbelievers and apostates = because the Quran verses and Hadith told us to
Why do you oppose modern life = because the messenger and his companions didn't live like that.
Why do you kill blasphemers = because the hadiths said so.
Why do you take slaves = because Islam allows it, if not why are there rules on how to treat a slave

As opposed to the longer argument a regular Muslim has to poss.
Why do you not kill disbelievers = because the Quran verses and Hadith are to be understood in historical context when the Muslims and Meccans were at war with each other.
Why are you ok with Western education = because life is changing and job requirements and we want our children to be successful and have high paying jobs.
Why not slaves = because slaves have been a part of human history for a while that is why Islam has rules for how to treat them, but slavery is no longer a thing so we don't follow it.
Why do you have non-Muslim friends = because the word used in the Quran translates to protector and it means do not have non believers as your protectors and not friends.
etc.

The point is you have to make a longer argument for why you don't support some extremist behaviors
Than an extremist's simpler explanation for his actions.

Is it what Islam teaches?
Unfortunately there are no gate keepers to the understanding of Islam since it is derived from the Quran and Hadith, and even BH and jungle justice people derive their understanding and justification from the same books.
The issue lays from the fact that enough people can derive such understandings from just reading the books themselves. This is the reason the Muslim world is not going to rid itself from extremists any time soon.

The emphasis should be on educating the Muslim community on what Islam teaches and expose the fallacy of the extremist! FYI, just a Qur'anic verse and a hadith can easily expose the lies of the extremist. Extremism isn't that simple and has few followership compared to the majority of the Muslims. If extremism was that easy to be derived from the Qur'an and hadith, then the majority of the Muslims anywhere they are in the world would be on a killing spree...but is that the case? Righteous scholars from time had been gate keepers of the religion after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), and they have always been available to teach, but how many are willing and ready to learn?! Seeking knowledge is obligatory in Islam, and that is why you have to learn the religion, not only by reading the texts, but having a teacher, a righteous teacher!

IMAliyu:
On the subject of killing apostates.

I have a relative that was raised Christian, but converted to Islam at around 16 years of age after spending a holiday in Katsina with her Muslim friends.
She converted back to Christianity a few years ago, while she was working as a teacher in Niger state, she did not declare her conversation, but stopped wearing the hijab. Her colleges noticed and started sending death threats to her, she had to leave the state in fear of her life.

My conclusion.
Si.no's post makes it seem like there are procedures that happen and there needs to be a court order before anyone can end the life of some who leaves the religion.
Or that they need to publicly declare their apostasy before someone decides there life is forfeit.

That is misleading, any individual Muslim that takes offense from it and feels entitled enough that they are on the side of good and are carrying out Allah and the prophet's command will decide that they can end a person's life because they left Islam and think nothing of it, because they are just doing exactly what they are thought and what they think is right.
I would extend this to even the cases of blasphemy. Same way Muslim students were rioting and willing to end a Christian student's life because he forwarded a blasphemous message to a whatsapp group in my school about 2 years ago.

And this is not the case of jungle justice meted out on thieves, witches, kidnappers etc. that pervades our society when there is a legitimate government and appropriate government institutions to handle such cases?!

There is what Islam teaches and there is what some Muslims do, after all, Boko haram too are claiming to be doing the right thing by killing innocent people including women and children but is it what Islam teaches?!

LordReed:


You haven't answered why it should be the business of government to police the religion of its citizens. It is tantamount to government policing the choice of colours, why would the government concern itself with it?

Besides you speak as though the government is not made up of muslim individuals. The government is not some inanimate object, it is humans making decisions and they made a decision to condemn people to death for refusing Islam.

I had answered this, the constitution of the Islamic state is the shariah (Qur'an and Sunnah). Is it wrong to defend and protect a country's constitution?! The modern day government in some parts of the world is meddling into sexual orientation, gender dichotomy, and even limiting the number of children of citizens so why should religion be left out?! The government should be concerned with everything that affects the human condition, and religion plays an important role!

Huh? Choosing not to believing in Allah undermines the government? In what way?

Nope, I used the words, action, activities, treason to show that to undermine a government goes beyond not accepting the government as legitimate...

tintingz:


I've very well being threatened with death or imprisonment.

AbdelKabir(he has deactivated his account) once said I would have been judged by the Sharia for apostasy, which we know the punishment.
https://www.nairaland.com/3633247/cousin-marriage-islam/2#53844499

I'm sure you were in that thread, it was my transition period.

This your Muslim brother in the link said "he hope Bala is forgotten and may I join him soon".
https://www.nairaland.com/5923291/absurdity-hypocrisy-muslims-beliefs#90644041

Majority Muslims can't take apostasy without threaten you directly or indirectly.

Cc. LordReed

The quote from Abdelkabir says you would be judged by the shariah in an Islamic state. That is no death threat from an individual Muslim! Of course if you live in an Islamic state, you will be judged by the shariah! You do not live in a country with laws and then break the laws of the land and then cry that they are being judged with the law of the land.

The second quote too isn't a death threat, Bala to the best of my knowledge was arrested and not killed...

You only cited two cases which does not hold water, yet you are claiming that majority of Muslims can't take apostasy without threatening you... Sigh! Do you know how many Muslims have changed their religion especially in the SW and yet are alive and kicking?!

LordReed:


But you made it sound like Muslims generally allow one leave the religion without repercussion. You stated it as if there'd be a amenable discussion of the apostate's reasons. And if he was unwilling to revert he'd be free to go on.

I have made appropriate clarification with regards to the fact that only the state has the authority, and you still are given the opportunity to discuss your peculiar contentions... There is a difference between the Islamic state and the Muslims... Muslims would generally leave you to your disbelief after reasoning with you and hope and pray that Allah's Mercies reaches you before it is too late (and this is established in the shariah), while the Islamic state might see your actions and activities as treason that warrants a capital punishment...

Why should it be part of a government's duty to police which religion it's citizens espouse? Is religion not an individual decision?

In Islam, the religion is a way of life, it is what makes and maintains the society, as I said, it's beyond personal conviction. Of course like any other system of government, it ensures its preservation, sovereignty and integrity.

Is that not because he doesn't live in a shariah bound state? If he was in a shariah bound state then his fate would be death like you stated.

Well, depending on his actions and activities in an Islamic state. And I would think any reasonable person would be circumspect and not throw caution to the wind, by intentionally seeking to undermine a legitimate government!

LordReed:


So why do some muslims institute death penalty for apostasy?

Capital punishments are carried out by an Islamic State and not by individual Muslims. There is a process before a death penalty is pronounced, and most importantly, when it is established that a person has committed a crime against the Islamic State and the shariah punishment for such a crime is death.

The Islamic State's constitution is Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), so any action or activity that undermines this constitution can be termed has treason, and the shariah Court would determine this. In an Islamic state, religion is beyond a personal conviction, it is a government, a state. Even at this level, there is always the opportunity to argue your case, you would meet with scholars who would come and have a discussion with you regarding genuine questions about your apostasy, and the duration for this differ according to different schools of thought...Other faiths are accommodated and protected by the shariah.

Tintingz had renounced Islam and I haven't seen anyone here, to the best of my knowledge, threaten him with death! Even in an Islamic state, if you keep your apostasy to yourself, no one would harm you, and you can always leave such places...We as Muslims are given the permission by the shariah to migrate to a more favourable place to practice our religion if and when where we are is not!

tintingz:


Again...

If I and everyone wasn't born the Idea of honouring, respect, worship etc, nothing won't matter!

Allah created humans for his own selfish reason just for humans to worship him or you burn in hell, that's some narcissistic behavior. He's an independent omnipotent being, what does he gain in worshipping him?

I'm not denying the existence of God, your God doesn't exist to even deny it existence, anyways keep worshiping your imaginary narcissistic God. I wonder why he didn't approve of 50 prayers daily to you people.

You can't wish away your existence nor the fact that you were brought into this world via your parents, the fact that there are actions and consequences and the fact that you are in perpetual doubt with regards to the fundamental questions about our existence and the existence of the universe.

The fact here is that God matters to you. How many years is it that you have denied God but still here asking questions about this God?! Does God need your worship? Do you think you are indispensable?! How long are you going to live for that you think God needs your worship?! If God throws you in Hell to burn for eternity, how does this suggest He needs you or your worship?!

You can say anything you like about God, you know what defeats all your above claims?! That God is the most Merciful and would forgive you once you sincerely repent and believe! Some had said worse and done worse than you, yet God's Mercies reached them, they repented and returned to the fold of Islam, and that is why we as Muslims are always hopeful until death comes... It is not too late for you.

tintingz:


Using an existing being suffering as your analogy. Lol. Flawed.

And besides a poor man won't worship his helper all his life and his helper won't ask to be worshiped or be punished. Or should one be thanking his parents for bringing him to this world?

If you're not created by this self-sufficient God, would anything matter?

Definition of analogy:

1a: a comparison of two otherwise unlike things based on resemblance of a particular aspect

b: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY

... Merriam Webster

Definition of worship (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb

1: to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power
2: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

worship noun
Definition of worship (Entry 2 of 2)
1: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power
also : an act of expressing such reverence
2: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
3: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
worship of the dollar
.... Merriam Webster

Well Islam teaches us to honor and have deep respect for our parents, and part of honouring and respecting ones benefactor is to show gratitude! Is this surprising that you have no grasp of all these?! Well again it's a free world, you can choose to dishonour and disrespect your parents and your benefactors...

Because we exist, that is why everything matters, that is why there are consequences and why you are here denying the existence of God!

tintingz:
Allah is said to be infinitely perfectly self-sufficient, what's the purpose of him creating humans in a tiny dust earth in the milky galaxy only for him to say "worship me"?

That's not even the only questionable part, the most questionable part is prayers was to be 50 times daily!!! Like 50 prayers a day!! Isn't that suffering and likely affects the growth of the economy?

Muhammad begged Allah to reduce it to 5.

Can someone PLEASE(before they say I'm rude) tell me what Allah the self-sufficient God wanted/wants to do with 50 prayers then 5 prayers?

A destitute, has no job, no education or qualifications, no skill whatsoever, lives under the bridge. He got picked up by a wealthy individual, he gives food, clothing, shelter and even education and later a job. Well, according to you, the destitute never asked for all these, and so needs not be grateful! Why should he be?! Would the destitute lack of gratitude make the wealthy become poor or diminish his personality in public?! What does this say about the destitute?!

You didn't asked to be created, and thus, you should know your place in the scheme of things...i.e, insignificant! You have chosen not to worship God, and this hasn't changed the world from how it functions or changed the fact that you are still not in charge of what happens to you in the next 5 minutes, 1 hour, 1 year, 10 years and the hereafter!

God has informed us in the Qur'an the purpose He created us for, and that is to worship Him. He Has all the prerogative to demand from His creation whatsoever He wants and how He wants it. You don't agree?! Yeah, no problem, it's your choice, and it is His prerogative to also make you face the consequences of your actions.

Your escape is to deny the existence of God, but it is just what it is, living in denial!

usermane:
2. The Seven Heavens



The first Muslims thought the heavens to be solid matter. As Ibn Abbas points, the seven heavens are layers of domes stacked together like 7 floors of a tower. This understanding of seven heavens would fit the prevalent understanding of the cosmos in the 7th century.

Brother mane, after we have congratulated you that "o da bo o" you have left the Ummah, you come show again?! I know you are at liberty to post anywhere, I had thought you wouldn't have anything to do with us again, but I see you are looking for validation or you are proselytizing your new found (lack of) faith?!

Anyways, let me just say that seven heavens, the meaning and understanding can rightly be understood from the Qur'an! But I know you just like taking one verse, and find a way to suite your opinion regardless of what other verses might suggest. Please also note that the Qur'an had made mention of creations which cannot be SEEN by our naked eyes! Today a lot has been said about multiverse, dark matter, black hole etc. by scientists, but can we see them?!

If the verse states that "Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another", if you can't see the remaining six, at least you can see the one you look up to, does it look like something that anyone could have done except for the Creator?!

Bro mane, have you forgotten this verse of the Qur'an?

"O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ]." (Qur'an 55:33)

Hello! Jinn are also creations of Allah (SWT) and they are amongst us, and we can't see them! Again, Allah (SWT) has given permission to explore the heavens, knowing fully well that man would definitely venture into space, and we are "SEEING" things that are mind blowing! Giving credence to the truth that Allah (SWT) is indeed the creator, because there isn't any better explanation for all these!

Finally, Allah (SWT) states in the Qur'an:

"It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that Allah is over all things competent and that Allah has encompassed all things in knowledge." (Qur'an 65:12)

The 7th century Muslims understood that there are creations of Allah (SWT) that cannot be seen by the naked eyes except by permission of Allah, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and if they explained it the way they understood it, using analogy of a tower with dome layers doesn't mean they were wrong and that we can't use our own analogy from modern science to explain this!

All in all, if you want to see the seven heavens, you should look at the one you can see! Do you have better explanations for how it came to be?!

Rashduct4luv:


Just as Lanrexlan said Now you are shifting goal post. What kind of logic is this?

The theme of the discussion was about plagiarism not proving God?

Muhammad never claimed he wrote the Qur'an. And if you can think well you would know that the Qur'an and Bible are used in court not the Santa Book you are bringing up.

OK, who are the authors of the Bible that he should have given credit too? Can you tell us with 100% assurance who wrote the Bible?

Is the Bible copyrighted?

Which translation of the Bible is copyrighted? The Douay version? KJV? RSV? or the other 10s of translation? or the Arabic version? The Greek, Latin Version?

How could an unlettered man plagiarise major characters in the Torah, Injeel, Zaboor, etc(works of thousands of years) and then fine tune the narration to another dimension all in 23 years!

I will have to stop here as it is evident you will never see reason.

@bold, I think tintingz wants to go to court, he has been mentioning the court, I just hope he can get capable legal luminaries to go argue his case sha...