budaatum:

That last paragraph encapsules my reason for being in the religious section. Ex-muslims and Christians mischaracterize the contents of the Quran and Bible then yell strawman when one disagree with their misunderstanding, but enlightened one's like you would eventually appear.

Tingz accuses me of insulting Muslims without realising its his own ignorance I am actually insulting for claiming to promote sceptism without realising he is not sceptical about his own supposed absolute knowledge, or, ignorance, to be precise, which makes him the zombie, though he'd not see he is. I can bet money on the fact that he'd completely miss the verses you quote above promoting sceptism, and claim Islam promotes zombeism. He does not see that the Quran is made the Word of God only if properly understood, otherwise it is the word of satan.

They can only be educated, I guess, though their actual learning is entirely up to them.

As for you, Allah continues to grow you in knowledge and wisdom, I see. For, I was going to repost mine you quoted hoping Tingz would get my point. But you've gone and done it for me with additions I knew not to include.

In fact one would encounter in the Qur'an prayers for granting of wisdom, increase in knowledge and also eloquence so people may have understanding of what is being said. I hope we all get this blessings...

I would say your posts are quite radical, and for me, I have learnt a new perspective with regards to scepticism, faith, and how to acknowledge certainty in faith. You don't just believe, you know...This actually brings me to the levels of faith as described by the Prophet (SAW) and the highest being that "you worship God as if you can see God..." And this is a level Muslims continuously strive for...

I agree they need to be educated, and this happens to be the reason some of us engage him and others.

tintingz:
All this are irrelevant, you're just going in circles and beating round the bush.

Are you a skeptic? Yes or No?

Yes and No...

Would you believe my No or would you doubt my Yes?!

Should there be a point when doubt becomes certainty?!

Allah (SWT) Says:

"The bedouins say: "We believe." Say: "You believe not but you only say, 'We have surrendered (in Islam),' for Faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger (SAW), He will not decrease anything in reward for your deeds. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 49:14)

Most conscious Muslims who came from Muslim background had one time or another had to embark on a journey of rediscovering Islam, they all have one thing in common, they had doubts....

Allah (SWT) Says:

"Only those are the believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allah. Those! They are the truthful." (Qur'an 49:15)

Doubts can only be eradicated by certainty, and you would only get this by being sincere with yourself, learning, seeking knowledge and understanding.

budaatum:

I feel they watch the worst practitioners of the religion, which is where the ex-Muslims here get their doctrine from and claim that's the religion, without understanding the zombified version they were given and rightly rebel against is not what many understand from reading the Quran. They have been programmed to see what they see, and even when they rebel, they still only see what they are told. I'll call them the zombies and watch tintingz completely miss the point that refuting that fact is his scotsman fallacy with him sticking absolutely to his preconceived notion with an inability to apply skeptism to his already made up mind.

The zombeism they claim is due to Islam is universally distributed in Nigeria, they'd find if they looked carefully. Almost all Nigerians bow down and worship their own religious book or preacher or imam or big man in their neighbourhood, all of which they dare not question, but rather than use skeptism to help them dig out a reason for this zombeism, tingz et al have made up their mind to blame it on the cure without really knowing that's what they do, and that, despite that same book being the beginning of their own eyes opening slightly.

Zombeism they speak of is the result of little information. The first and only book most people read is a holy book, which they are told came down from heaven and therefore must worship despite very limited understanding. I'm discussing with one in the Christian section who thinks he's smart despite his ignorant zombeism shinning through in almost every word he writes. You'd see on that thread how and what I am claiming opened Adam and Eve's eyes and freed them from zombeism. Unfortunately, tintingz is unknowingly claiming such people's misunderstanding is the books fault instead of the individuals ignorance and lack of understanding, and nothing one says will make either of them, despite being on opposite ends, skeptical to their strongly held preconceived beliefs.

Those who will make zombies of our people will make sure those people have as little access to as few sources of information as possible. It's why there's not enough books, no libraries, no electricity, ill-treated teachers and bad schools, and instead a multitude of religious institutions willing to zombify people and get those people to tithe for the privilege. We see the result as the inability of many Nigerians to think and reason for themselves and create employment for the millions of ill-educated unemployable youths graduating annually from our third world universities.

Skeptism, the questioning of knowledge, will make people understand why it is written that, humans must not read only one book or they will become malnourished.

The solution is to increase sceptism by providing people with the access to more information and the opportunity to reason with one another as we do on Nairaland. Even when we do not agree with one another, only the zombies will resist considering and questioning what they've heard or read which is why I do this.

Now you have unraveled the deceptions of some of the "neo atheists" and their modus operandi. I dear say, it is basically lip service to all these philosophical jargons. Eventually, they have become what they claim to want to eradicate. This is not surprising, after all we are all humans with our flaws...

Indeed, Islam had made seeking knowledge compulsory on both males and females in one of the reported sayings of the Prophet (SAW), and it is quite instructive that the first verse revealed was about seeking knowledge, Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'an: "Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists)". One of the things frowned at in Islam is blind followership, every scholar of Islam is to be held based on the standards of the Qur'an and Sunnah, hence, it is pertinent to seek the knowledge of these two, else you might be easily misled. Of course, studying the Qur'an and Sunnah isn't about just learning how to read them, as some of these ex Muslims have claimed, but understanding! Allah SWT Says: "(This is) a Book (the Quran) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder (reflect) over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember." (Qur'an 38:29) Also Allah SWT Says,"...Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding." (Qur'an 39:9).

"O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

The verse above captures the ignorance of tintingz and the likes who hold on to the claims of terrorists and surprisingly, suspend their skepticism to become zombies! And no matter how you try to make them see the fallacy of their views, just like fanatics, they stick to their preconceived opinions. It is always a pathetic view...

I agree with the need to make people read more, have access to books...but when poverty ochestrated by the powers that be, bites hard, people loose the patience to seek understanding, they becomes tools in the hands of their benefactors...

Indeed, we can't really agree on everything, but we can learn from each other and that to me is the hallmark of intellectual discuss.

tintingz:
What's your point here?

Didn't I said the effect of a robbery is an evidence itself? Why should anyone go to a robbery scene when it's obvious there's a robbery going on in that area? I even said the police and media people will do their job to cover the scene and give reports in details and evidence.

You keep strawmaning I don't like strawman arguments.

This still doesn't make sense. So where was I when the robbery was going on?

The sound of gunshots is different from bangers. Do I look like a kid?

If people are fleeing because of a loud sound then it's something dangerous, people don't flee by hearing sounds of bangers.

Evidence = verifiable

No, tell us the logic behind faith? I would like to know the logic behind faith.

As you can see from the philosophical skepticism one of the category denied the knowledge of absolutism; we can't know everything and the other said the a subject shouldn't be judged or concluded without no sufficient evidence. They're both valid! Humans are limited and we can't know everything at least for now(if it's possible) but in the process of skepticism we gain knowledge and evidence to some subject matters.

When it's comes to matter of unseen where there's no evidence, you don't conclude or give judgement (the second type of skepticism), you has a Muslim have concluded on things that has no evidence unless if you can provide evidence to your beliefs but then how did you arrive at the conclusion there Allah, he's first cause, Muhammad rode on a flying creature etc? How did you conclude this?

It's my belief, why do you need evidence? Or do you now subscribe to philosophical skepticism?

You didn't give any reasonable response here, you just go in circles with your beliefs. A delusory response.

Tell us how you concluded Muhammad rode on a flying donkey to the sky?

If you don't have evidence then it's no different from the flying rabbit in the cosmic because they're both belief system.

How did you know Allah exist? What makes you believe Allah exist out of other Gods in other religions?



You're just strawmaning here.

Any logical open minded person that goes through my threads will see that my threads are about the absurdity of the Muslim beliefs. Whether you find them insulting is non of my business, Muslims have done worse, i have been insulted and threaten many times, so why do you need special treatment from me?

I respect few Muslims here who are ready to discuss intellectually and not always attack the person.

You made a simple thing become something you are finding difficult to comprehend...I wouldn't go further explaining this simple scenario to you again.

But I would address an aspect, you said "effect of robbery is an evidence of a robbery". I do agree with this, but the question is did you verify the robbery yourself before you conclude that there was a robbery going on? Did you not rely on the available evidences of the effects of the robbery to come to this conclusion?

Now when it comes to the existence of God, the evidence is the universe and all that it contains including you and me. All these are effects of a cause which is undeniable. Why this cause is God and not your flying rabbit, is the available evidences of our intellect, we are intelligent beings, what would cause such intelligence would be far more intelligent than us, would be beyond descriptions of his creation and would communicate with us in a way, and thus revelations... This revelation must be meaningful, a guide to understanding purpose of all that exist and not just some accidental mumbo jumbo.

This meaningful and purposeful existence lies in the heart of every one of us, we always seek meaning and purpose, and when such is lost, we are disturbed...

The funny thing about you is that you were once a Muslim, and all these claims of absurdity were what you laboured to correct and explain the true position of Islam. There is nothing intellectual about claims that are false like what you have claimed on this thread about Islam being zombiesm.

budaatum:

Well, imagine the skeptic trying to cross a road. They look right and left, see no car coming, then look right and left again and no car's coming, so they look left and right again and no car coming, so they look.......

Yep, I agree. Madness. Which why it is written that "[url=https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11%3A34-36&version=NIV]if ones senses are dim, the whole body woud be full of madness[/url]". The moral being, one must make sure ones senses can be trusted and that one knows how to use them properly so skeptism does not make one go mad.

Very apt Buda. The proper use of our senses when in doubt should not lead towards madness, but unfortunately, we can't shy away from people who misuse these senses and in so doing become mad literally or exhibit some forms of madness. I call it self- inflicted madness. Thus, there is classifications of skepticism or philosophical skepticism and I usually make reference to the kind of skepticism which is futile in my submissions...And also mentioned that there are indeed fundamental knowledge that should not be in doubt when we really use our senses properly , and God being one of such.

My first post on this thread points to the teachings of Islam with regards to critical thinking and deep reflections on issues of God and creation. The Qur'an presents a rational argument for God by asking fundamental questions which continuous philosophical skepticism can't provide answers for with certainty. A good example of this is the verse that follows :

"Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.

Or have they the depositories [containing the provision] of your Lord? Or are they the controllers [of them]?" (Qur'an 52:35-37)

So I find it utterly ridiculous that tintingz and his likes keep claiming that Islam is zombeism... And when they demand philosophical proofs for what is an a priori knowledge (like cause and effect) or demand empirical evidence for what is beyond the observable and reproducible in the physical world, I can't help but see the manifestations of radical skepticism and sometimes madness.

budaatum:

The skeptic would say you should be skeptic and not say "we cannot know the truth about everything" even if our current knowledge is limited, especially since one is talking about 'some things' and not 'everything'.

Besides, a justified belief is no more a belief but what one now knows, which is why one would hardly hear anyone say, "I believe that particular woman is my mother", or "I believe rain is falling on my head", and if anyone ever did say such things, those who hear it would say the person does not know who their mother is or whether it is raining on their head or not.

To believe a thing is to be not quite certain, and a sceptical approach should be a requirement until one knows and is certain. Until then, one ought to suspend belief and disbelieve.

C.f. Re: Why Faith Is Delusional

I get your point and and agree to a certain degree. The issue here now is to what level should one entertain this skepticism as there is the tendency that this can lead towards madness...But definitely, certainty is indeed the fruit of proper knowledge and understanding.

tintingz:
What's your point here?

You asked a question that's not about the topic. I've said it countless times this topic is about philosophical skepticism on religion matter, you're talking about parents and robbery. Maybe if I'd ignored your post, you won't be strawmaning further.

"Philosophical skepticism (UK spelling: scepticism; from Greek σκέψις skepsis, "inquiry" is a family of philosophical views that question the possibility of knowledge or certainty.[1][2] Philosophical skeptics are often classified into two general categories: Those who deny of possibility of all knowledge, and those who advocate for the suspension of judgement due to the inadequacy of evidence.[3] This is modeled after the differences between the Academic skeptics and the Pyrrhonian skeptics in ancient Greek philosophy."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism


You may read further in the link provided... And please do take note of the classification and types of skepticism.

So for further clarifications, the robbery scenario was introduced to show that it would be quite futile to engage in your philosophical skepticism when evidences available are enough to make rational decisions or conclusions. If you would insist on being a skeptic at that point in time, you are inadvertently advocating for radical skepticism.

Your question is confusing.

Was the robbery happening in my residence that my parents called? And was I in the residents that I saw people running? Cus why would my parents called me to stay back when I'm in the residents?

I can't seem to get what you're picturing.

It is quite simple, your neighbourhood could be the next house or the first house on your street. You don't need to overthink this.

So what's making people flee?

When I see "people fleeing" In your analogy I was assuming a scene with heavy gun shots or something loud.

You didn't give good picture of what you're saying.

Again, you need not assume... But even at that, if I had included you had heard gunshots, would that have been enough evidence for you to conclude that it is true? Could you not be skeptical and assume it could have been bangers or something of sort and the people running were just being hysterical and not being skeptical enough to ascertain the source of the sounds they are hearing like you would?

The real question here is, what sort of evidences would be enough for a philosophical skeptic like yourself?! Or would the fear for your dear life make you abandon all your philosophical argumentations and flee like a 'zombie'?!

What's logical reasoning behind faith?

If I'm not mistaken, Muslims on this section have in many ways presented this while addressing so many of your questions... You may go back and read some of them.

Can you define philosophy?

And where did I even said we can know the truth of all matters? Is there any mention of absolutism in this argument?

Stop strawmaning mister.

I have given a definition above pertinent to this discussion, make use of it, if you will.

If we cannot know the truth about everything, why then does it make you continue to argue when I tell you that our knowledge is limited when it comes to matters of the unseen?! Why does it then bothers you that we believe in the unseen based on the meaningful available evidences of what we can see which justifies our beliefs?

Don't use "We", tell me how you know for a "fact" it is my figment of imagination that a flying green rabbit exist in the cosmic?

And was Muhammad imagining when he claim he rode on a flying creature to the sky?

Okay, first, you are an atheist, you do not believe such creatures exist. But if you claim you do, then you need to present the evidences that proved to you that this exist based on your philosophical skepticism. Now I know you cannot, and furthermore, it would be futile arguing this with you!

Now when it comes to Islam and the belief in the unseen, it doesn't start with a random person claiming to see something out of the physical realm without meaning and you being special and worthy to have been chosen to see the supernatural. Even in our reality, you have to be special to experience certain privileges... As already established, we do not require only physical evidences to arrive at a rational and informed conclusion to believe a matter and conclude that it is true. Of course, when the Prophet SAW narrated his supernatural journey to Jerusalem and up into the heavens by a supernatural creature in a night, during his era, some people were doubtful, not particularly about the creature, but about the travel to Jerusalem based on their experiences of travel back then and said with confidence that no man can travel to Jerusalem from Mecca, a journey of months, in a single night. But the facts here remains that God isn't restricted to what can be created and how events can happen at any point in time. And, man, who was created by God, has now invented planes that can travel from Mecca to Jerusalem in few hours and rockets that can go up into space and other planets...I have seen what man can do, I believe God created man, the universe and all that exist, why would I now doubt what God can do and how God chose to do it?!

I know your next move is to deny the existence of God and still claim it was an imagination or a lie, but that is irrelevant to me cos you claim to be a philosophical skeptic and what you claim is also subject to this your skepticism and the reason you are still here day and night doubting and being uncertain...

So what's it?

What you are doing here is attacking Islam and Muslims day and night, making mockery of our beliefs, insulting us by equating us to Zombies and thinking you are superior because you are now an atheist. But unfortunately, thus far, you have not brought any meaningful thing to show for your enlightenment that you might want to claim other than more doubts and uncertainties.

tintingz:


I don't really get your argument.

Perhaps you read again from the beginning, it is clearly stated.

My questions alone is the skepticism here, the fact that you asked questions shows you're being skeptical and wanted to confirm if it isn't fake news or false alarm. If people are running from a robbery it's very easy to confirm as you're obviously close to the scene, the effect of a robbery is an evidence of something going on. So I don't see your argument here.

Finally, of course @bold, I have been pointing out to you the certainty of cause and effect, and the fact that it doesn't require philosophical skepticism to arrive at such conclusions...

If my parents called that there is a robbery, I've to asked where they get that information from, it's a logical thing to do, fake news are spread everywhere and one shouldn't be zombie believing in any information even from your parents! No one is perfect and fake news without confirmation have put many people in trouble.

The robbery is happening in your neighbourhood where you and your parents reside! This isn't about fake news or a stranger spreading information on social media!

If you hear heavy gun shots, why would anyone wants to witness the scene? You run for safety (the first rule). It's left for the police and media people to do their job, they're there to cover the scene and give you report in details with "evidence".

I'm sure I didn't mention anything about you hearing gun shots.

Ofcos one can't be skeptical everytime, we're not literally a programmed robots, humans aren't perfect, we do irrational things unintentionally and intentionally but when it's persistence, it's problematic. My arguments here is about philosophical skepticism. How you believed Muhammad rode on a flying donkey and there isn't a flying green rabbit in the cosmic is something delusory. What logical argument do you want to show for it? Why are you betraying your skepticism and shooting yourself in the foot?

You are the one who believes that there is no logical reasoning behind faith, and so it must be zombiesm. You think that you can arrive at the truth of all matters by only philosophical argumentations. Apparently, this is false as there are matters that are fundamental knowledge, just like the cause and effect as portrayed above in the robbery scenario. Also even in the definition of skepticism and philosophical skepticism to be precise, there is the uncertainty clause of not arriving at true knowledge, this is even corroborated by authorities in skepticism. And this has always been my argument.

For starters with regards to your questions, which I had answered before, we both know for certain that your flying rabbit in the cosmic is indeed a figment of your imagination, else you wouldn't be here asking me to prove that it doesn't exist!

I maintain that skepticism brought advanced and reliable knowledge.

And I am telling you that what you are doing here isn't what brought about these advances and reliable knowledge in the world today.

tintingz:
Ofcos i will question them.

How did they know or where did they heard it from? In a respectful way.

Then I can also confirm from different source.

Respectfully or not, their answers and those you would be confirming from are based on their experiences or hearsay , moreover you are seeing people running, and you are limited at that moment to believe these people like a zombie. The logical thing to do would be to heed the advice of your parents to stay back, else, you would only be foolish to continue your journey home because you are a skeptic.

The fact here is that holding on to skepticism as the means of reaching the truth in all things is impossible. Even at the point of believing your parents (if you would after your interrogations), it is based on rational thinking innate in every man. It would be pointless arguing and doubting your rational decision to do the right thing in the above scenario cos you have at your disposal evidences which are nothing more than personal experiences, hearsay and you witnessing the effects of the robbery but not the robbery itself. At the end of the day, no one is really a zombie! But trust me, some people can be foolish though, like one who would go ahead with the journey in the above-mentioned scenario claiming skepticism.

tintingz:


You actually asked this question in this 21st century where I can easily confirm?

Skepticism has to do with an act of doubting, questioning.

Would you, at that point in time, doubt and question your parents or believe them like a zombie? I have actually presented a 21st century scenario, a phone call from your parents.

@tintingz

If you had gone out, and then on your way home, you saw people running, and then you got a call from your parent telling you that you should stay back because there is a robbery going on in your neighbourhood, would you believe your parents like a zombie and take to your heels and find a sanctuary like those already fleeing or would you argue with them based on your skepticism to philosophically prove to you that there is indeed a robbery going on? Or better still, would you rather go confirm what is really happening so as to have physical evidence that there is indeed a robbery going on?

AbdulSleeky:


Catch-22. If Mac didnt ban me unfairly numerous times, I wouldnt have numerous usernames.

So, you are now defending Vedaxcool/Stalwert's abuse of my parents/family? What do you and stalwert know about my family? Do you think that a mature man like myself still lives under my parent's roof? Or that I have a bad relationship with my parents? Why should you support ignorant assertions about my family made by Stalwert? Is this what islam teaches you?


ASSumptions make an ASS out of you.

Why not ask your prophet how he dealt with the fact that his father and grandfather were pagans?


Or yourself? Go back 2-4 generations, and you will find that your ancestors were pagans

So Mac was the "trigger"? Wow, so revealing. Would you say anytime you open a new account, like as you have recently done, must have been from your first expereince with Mac?! Are you reliving those days when Mac was the Mod?! And what have you done so far to help yourself to stop this numerous accounts you keep on creating?! We might need to invite Mr. Maclatunji here for a one on one session....

Vedaxcool only asked you questions and didn't make any assertions. And if you do not have family problems like normal families do, and if also your parents are not theists that pray, then you can simply say so. Instead of all these your theatrics of looking for abuse...

Yeah, my ancestors might have been pagans, and that my friend is not an abuse!

AbdulSleeky:



How do you make statements like that about atheists when you have worse problems among muslims?

Muslims that made atheism illegal in 13 islamic countries?
Muslims in Saudi who are so obsessed with non-muslims that they ban all forms of non-muslim worship?

I bet you are enjoying all these attention for you to go this way...but sorry, better luck next try...

AbdulSleeky:


That you can defend Mac as a moderator betrays your level of ignorance. You don't have to believe me. There are many witnesses to Macs authoritarian regime on the islamic section. Even moderators from the religion section hated him. Manmustwacc even got banned by Mac and Seun got involved.


When you were supporting Stalwert/Vedaxcool you didnt see his abusive comments? Look below at the bold;

Lol, Yeah, I am ignorant of the fact that you kept on trolling with several monickers on this section?! You guys find it difficult to follow rules and regulations, and then you cry blue murder once someone with discipline enforces the law...

Erm, is it the question of you solving intractable family problems or the fact that your parents are believers who would pray to God for everything and if you have been able to come out clean to them of your atheism that is the abuse here?! I am not understanding o...

lanrexlan:


I am telling you, how can a single human being has more than 40 accounts?! I can't fathom how really.

He really needs help. Imagine him opening a thread and narrating while he left Nairaland while hiding under another monicker! He was basically narrating while he left by himself but disguising as a female, sending and replying his mails!

https://www.nairaland.com/1438996/logicboy-tells-why-he-left

But akhee, guess what? He can't leave, 7 years on, he is still on NL trolling cos that's his oxygen for life!

Seriously, this faceless forum of a thing sometimes has its drawbacks... Imagine the lent he had to go to, all to what end?! Attention?! Pathetic!!!

I think they all seem to have the same problem, I mean atheist, they simply can't let go, cos that is what gives their life meaning. They don't believe God exist, yet all they do is talk about God... utter confusion

AbdulSleeky:


See hypocrisy!

So because, I am telling the truth about Mac, I have a grudge against him?

What about Vedaxcool/Stalwert, your brother, who came to attack me and abuse my family from nowhere? Why does my comment on the islam section and mac pain him so?

Your antecedents on this section speak volume of your person. Mac did no wrong against you, you deserved what you got!

Can you show me where he abused your family?!

Your comments only exposed what had already been established about you, deal with it and stop whining!

Stalwert:


Lol so he is not only suffering from multiple personalities but he is a gender confused clown. I wonder what he will use his life for if Nairaland is closed?

Come to think of it, someone who could hold a grudge against Mac for almost a decade for a ban on a faceless forum...Seun should try all that is humanly possible not to let this site down o. Although I would recommend therapy, all those AA meetings etc., just in case...I don't want to insinuate anything, but depression is real!

Stalwert:


This should know his system by now, he will denigrate Islam in morning and beg to be respected on Islamic Values. He will call Muslim bigots and turn around and say they are intelligent, he called Maclatunji a "shady taxi salesman" then turn around and say Mac position is the same as his, I only feel sorry for the people who will deal with this morally bankrupt individual who will lie, cheat, betray and deceive to get what he wants.

Come on now, come off it, he just assured us he has ethics, that should count for something I guess

He is the perfect definition of a troll!

lanrexlan:
What's the correlation?

At least, I DON'T:

-have many monickers to troll religion for 8+ years.
-find my source of happiness on a faceless forum.
-pose as the opposite sex just to seek attention.


Take away Nairaland from your life, what's left?! Emptiness?! The same Islamic section that is dead is the same section you keep opening threads and posing as an ex-Muslim! Even, with the "dead Islamic section", it is still the sole purpose of your happiness and joy!

Attention craving is your food and Oxygen!

I think we might need a professional psychologist in here pretty soon. A lot is going on with these atheists on here. I'm almost certain he keeps a diary or something of some sort to keep up with his numerous monickers... Bro, it is not ordinary eyes again o...

@tintingz,

Your "heart of disbelief" has been adequately established by your responses and duly noted. Thank you.

lanrexlan:


Jazakumullah khairan for this akhee. You just sum up the reasoning of these folks. They're not different, same questions with surface dressing.

May Allah plant our feet firm

Wa antum fa jazakumullahu khayran brother. You know the most interesting thing is that most of the genuine criticism (and not their daily rants about their deep-rooted psychological issues) by these disbelievers have all been properly addressed by traditional scholars of old. These guys just keep recycling and they think they're onto some sort of rare knowledge or understanding, I just can't help but SMH at their folly.

Allahuma Ameen to your dua bro

Thirdly, these disbelievers are the worst of their kind because they are not interested in the truth and would never believe, all they want to do is follow their desires and seek companionship in their disbelief.

“Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.” (Qur'an 2:6)

“Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe –“ (Qur'an 8:55)

“And thus We have placed within every city the greatest of its criminals to conspire therein. But they conspire not except against themselves, and they perceive [it] not.

And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.” (Qur'an 6:123-124)

Fourthly, those who have disbelieved, their disbelief should not bother Muslims, it is a choice they consciously made and are proud of. They brag about their disbelief openly and work to spread such in the society. They know what they are doing and they deny the consequences... They have no harm they can cause to Allah (SWT) and His divine message, they can only try as their forefathers, the idol worshipers and their likes, and we know they all failed woefully at the end of the day!

“And whoever has disbelieved - let not his disbelief grieve you. To Us is their return, and We will inform them of what they did. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts.” (Qur'an 31:23)

“And do not be grieved, [O Muhammad], by those who hasten into disbelief. Indeed, they will never harm Allah at all. Allah intends that He should give them no share in the Hereafter, and for them is a great punishment.

Indeed, those who purchase disbelief [in exchange] for faith - never will they harm Allah at all, and for them is a painful punishment.
And let not those who disbelieve ever think that [because] We extend their time [of enjoyment] it is better for them. We only extend it for them so that they may increase in sin, and for them is a humiliating punishment.” (Qur'an 3:176-178)

Finally, our religion is no joke or a thing of amusement, those who indulge in making mockery of religion are those deluded by this world, and it is all they seek, they are confused and in perpetual uncertainty. We should uphold the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (Saw), and convey the message of Islam by reminding those who would benefit from these reminders. Indeed a day would come when such reminders would be of no use, and each person would have found what he or she had sent forth.

“And leave those who take their religion as amusement and diversion and whom the worldly life has deluded. But remind with the Qur'an, lest a soul be given up to destruction for what it earned; it will have other than Allah no protector and no intercessor. And if it should offer every compensation, it would not be taken from it. Those are the ones who are given to destruction for what they have earned. For them will be a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment because they used to disbelieve.

Say, "Shall we invoke instead of Allah that which neither benefits us nor harms us and be turned back on our heels after Allah has guided us? [We would then be] like one whom the devils enticed [to wander] upon the earth confused, [while] he has companions inviting him to guidance, [calling], 'Come to us.' " Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance; and we have been commanded to submit to the Lord of the worlds. (Qur'an 6:70-71)

“O you who have believed, upon you is [responsibility for] yourselves. Those who have gone astray will not harm you when you have been guided. To Allah is your return all together; then He will inform you of what you used to do.” (Qur'an 5:105)

These are some of the attacks of the disbelievers on Islam I have been able to pen down by Allah's Will, and you would see that their hearts are alike, no matter the era and time. Of course, this is just like a short note basically from my engagements with disbelievers on this section and elsewhere, it is not meant to be exhaustive, as there are more that could have been written, under these listed subheadings or even under new subheadings. The disbelievers would always try to defame Islam through these routes enumerated above, some more sinister among them would prosecute Muslims and ban religion if they do have the political power as seen in some countries, but they can only wish away the religion, Allah (SWT) will continue to protect and perfect the light of Islam, and it would continue to spread all over the world!

Allah (SWT) Says:

"And who does more wrong than the one who invents a lie against Allah, while he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers and disbelievers) folk.

They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Quran, and Prophet Muhammad SAW) with their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it)." (Qur’an 61:7-

"Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power! (He is free) from what they attribute unto Him!

And peace be on the Messengers!

And all the praise and thanks be to Allah, Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)." (Qur’an 37: 180-182)

Finally, so how do we Muslims deal with some of these attacks from disbelievers and hypocrites?

Allah (SWT) Says:

“And those who disbelieve say, "We will never believe in this Qur'an nor in that before it." But if you could see when the wrongdoers are made to stand before their Lord, refuting each other's words... Those who were oppressed will say to those who were arrogant, "If not for you, we would have been believers."

Those who were arrogant will say to those who were oppressed, "Did we avert you from guidance after it had come to you? Rather, you were criminals."

Those who were oppressed will say to those who were arrogant, "Rather, [it was your] conspiracy of night and day when you were ordering us to disbelieve in Allah and attribute to Him equals." But they will [all] confide regret when they see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved. Will they be recompensed except for what they used to do?” (Qur'an 34:31-33)

These verses depicts the activities of some disbelievers and their plight at the end of the day. You would know them by their arrogance and their denying the truth, they would spend their night and day plotting and planning, they would even be helping each other and meet surreptitiously so as to continue their attacks, on this section, they create multiple accounts and lie effortlessly, they prey on the weak and the oppressed, but no one will fall for their antics except those in whose heart is criminality. But they are all losers at the end of the day! The fact is that they have nothing to offer except doubts.

Firstly, Islam teaches and establishes in the Qur'an that, an individual's lack of faith affects no one except the individual!

Allah SWT Says:

"It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss." (Qur'an 35:39)

Secondly, there are hypocrites among Muslims who pander to the disbelievers, they are quick to support them in their attacks, and find it difficult to disagree with them, upholding the dictates of Islam. The disbelievers love them because they know they are in cahoots. When you confront them they claim to be having 'intellectual' conversations or just joking and in so doing make mockery of the religion. When you see them, be wary of them and remind them of Allah (SWT). Allah (SWT) talks about them:

“And whenever a surah is revealed, there are among the hypocrites those who say, "Which of you has this increased faith?" As for those who believed, it has increased them in faith, while they are rejoicing.

But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it has [only] increased them in evil [in addition] to their evil. And they will have died while they are disbelievers." (Qur'an 9:124-125)

“They hypocrites are apprehensive lest a surah be revealed about them, informing them of what is in their hearts. Say, "Mock [as you wish]; indeed, Allah will expose that which you fear."

And if you ask them, they will surely say, "We were only conversing and playing." Say, "Is it Allah and His verses and His Messenger that you were mocking?"

Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals.” (Qur'an 9:64-66)

“[Remember] when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was disease said, "Their religion has deluded those [Muslims]." But whoever relies upon Allah - then indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.” (Qur'an 8:49)

The fundamental (a priori) knowledge of causality (cause and effect) is innate in every individual, when we observe all that exist, from what can be observed in space to our own physical entity and existence, we know that all these are beyond random accident, there must be a cause, this is what makes sense to us. The scientists for example, are able to make informed conclusions that the big bang is a most plausible occurrence by observing the effects in space, they can't possibly prove the big bang happened by doubting it happened and using philosophical argumentations for that would lead them to be uncertain regardless of all the observable effects of this process that they claim and since they cannot reproduce the big bang or observe it directly and physically in real time! So we see that even science relies on causality to propose theories and in some cases hold these theories has facts even if they cannot reproduce, repeat or have physical evidences for their claims. This also happens to be the case for round earth before the 20th century when a picture of earth was taken with a camera. The observable evidences of the effects of the roundness of earth were profound, it was just silly to argue with these observable facts, sillier would it have been using skepticism and doubts...

So why is it difficult for these disbelievers to believe that the evidence for God is just in front of them, yet they leave true and certain knowledge to delve into doubts and uncertainty?! Allah (SWT) Says:

“Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.

Or have they the depositories [containing the provision] of your Lord? Or are they the controllers [of them]?” (Qur'an 52:35-37)

Each verse here is instructive, and they seek to get answers from these disbelievers who deny the truth. Apparently, as shown on this section numerous times, these disbelievers have nothing, and they call to nothing. They only but follow their desires... They hide behind so called 'knowledge', logic and philosophy, all which amounts to nothing but further uncertainties... Allah (SWT) Says:

“And Allah created the heavens and earth in truth and so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged.
Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah? Then will you not be reminded?

And they say, "There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time." And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, their argument is only that they say, "Bring [back] our forefathers, if you should be truthful." (Qur'an 45:21-25)

These disbelievers do not have certainty, they make assumptions based on their doubts, and the only argument when you warn them about what is to come after death, they mock and jest, they ask you if anyone had ever been back from the dead to confirm this. Of course, death is a certainty, and then, what these disbelievers seek to confirm, would be confirmed without the opportunity to come back to this world, or start arguing their philosophical doubts with Allah (SWT)….

4. Prove that Allah (SWT) / God exist

You might think that this is peculiar to modern day disbelievers, but on the contrary, this line of questioning is as old as the time of Prophet Musa and even Prophet Ibrahim (AS). Prophet Musa encounter with the Pharaoh depicts an egocentric megalomaniac, who thought himself god and demanded prove for God Prophet Musa (AS) was talking about. Pharaoh was proud and demanded to see God, similarly, today's disbelievers would demand physical evidences for God. Pharaoh was shown evidences, but his ego and pride made him use philosophical argumentations to rationalize what he had witnessed. Of course, he realized his folly at the point of death, and this same end awaits today's disbelievers who are arrogant and proud.

So one might ask, what sort of evidences would convince a modern day disbeliever?

Allah (SWT) Says:

“Say, "Have you considered: if the Qur'an is from Allah and you disbelieved in it, who would be more astray than one who is in extreme dissension?"

We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?” (Qur'an 41:52-53)

The first part of the above verse addresses the lack of wisdom of the disbelievers. If it comes down to what is at stake for decisions made, if there is God who had sent revelations concluding with the Qur'an, the disbelievers have everything to lose...The reason why Allah Says, they are the losers!

Man has gone to space, and have gone into the minute entity of a human being. They see the complexity, they see patterns, they see laws and order. Where they had previously thought there was nothing, they had found something, they are at a loss how these things came by, and as they keep exploring, they keep finding mind-blowing complexity in the universe and indeed in man himself! Are these not enough signs?! Nah! Just like Pharaoh, the modern day disbelievers want to see God before they believe.

“And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.” (Qur'an 6:124)

These disbelievers would argue how impossible and improbable an IPhone could have no inventor if such was brought to them from nowhere, but they wish that the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the earth and life on earth should have no creator, but a random accident, and they bring up conflicting arguments to defend their claims. At the end of the day, they are following the dictates of the creation instead of the creator.

3. Attack on the Qur'an

I remember when a disbeliever here wanted to attack the Qur'an and he was given the challenge of the Qur'an, well, your guess is as good as mine, he couldn't even write anything on his own, not to even talk of comparing it to the Qur’an! The disbelievers have used different methodology in attacking the Qur'an. They have claimed the Prophet (Saw) copied or he forged it and it isn't divine. Some have claimed it is a book of fairy tales... What is most amusing is the similarity of thought between idolaters of Quraish and these modern disbelievers! Allah (SWT) Says:

“Alif, Lam, Meem.

[This is] the revelation of the Book about which there is no doubt from the Lord of the worlds.

Or do they say, "He invented it"? Rather, it is the truth from your Lord, [O Muhammad], that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you [so] perhaps they will be guided.” (Qur'an 32:1-3)

“Or do they say [about Prophet Muhammad], "He invented it"? Say, "If I have invented it, then upon me is [the consequence of] my crime; but I am innocent of what [crimes] you commit." (Qur'an 11:35)

“Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful."(Qur'an 11:13)

The above verse challenges the disbelievers and those who claim to have esoteric connections with unseen creatures or have the capability and capacity to produce the like of the Qur'an, and that it is not special to go ahead and bring forth a revelation such as the Qur'an and they should call for assistance from what they claim is the source of their revelations and let us see how truthful their claims are.

Allah (SWT) Says:

“Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner -

He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and who has not taken a son and has not had a partner in dominion and has created each thing and determined it with [precise] determination.

But they have taken besides Him gods which create nothing, while they are created, and possess not for themselves any harm or benefit and possess not [power to cause] death or life or resurrection.

And those who disbelieve say, "This [Qur'an] is not except a falsehood he invented, and another people assisted him in it." But they have committed an injustice and a lie.

And they say, "Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."

Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful." (Qur'an 25:1-6)

These verses addresses accordingly those who attack the Qur'an and claimed that it is a forgery or that it is a fairy tale. They deny the existence of God who is the author of the Qur'an, yet, they worship what has been created. The idolaters of Quraish worshiped idols, while today's idolaters worship philosophy, logic, science as well as their desires. When you ask them, of what benefit has all these brought to their individual lives, the clever ones among them would say enlightenment, and the question remains, has this enlightenment bring back the dead? Or solve the fact that we would all die? As it unraveled the universe and the purpose of life on earth?! Has the enlightenment given meaning to life with all the atrocities and natural disasters? They would quickly at this point hold on to science, but when you tell them that science isn’t the exclusivity of disbelievers and can’t possibly give all the answers to our reality, they go on a tirade and rants against God and religion. You would quickly realize their folly, and wonder that rather than them to give their supposed philosophical and logical answers to the questions posed, they keep bringing up more doubts and questions while the really less intelligent ones among them would continue to attack God and religion and at the end of the day, no meaningful information would have been presented. Subhanallah! How accurate Allah (SWT) has described these disbelievers...

2. Attack on the Messenger and in some way Praise and Admit the success of the Messenger.

This is another scheme of the disbelievers, they intend to undermine the religion by attacking the personality of the Prophet (Saw). They go on a campaign of calumny and quote weak or fabricated hadith and in some cases they quote out of context or even lie just to paint the Prophet (SAW) in a bad light. But they are quick to admit how such a successful individual the Prophet (Saw) was, they might even praise him and say he was a genius. But all these aren't new, the disbelievers of Quraish and their likes did same. They claimed that the Prophet SAW was a mad man, even went to the level of claiming that he was a sorcerer! Yet, they admit he was an upright, trustworthy person and never was he evil-minded or immoral. But did all that stop the completion of the divine message?! No, the disbelievers plots all failed!

A beautiful rebuttal by Allah (SWT) towards the disbelievers of yesterday and those of today can be found below when Allah (SWT) Says:

" So remind [O Muhammad], for you are not, by the favor of your Lord, a soothsayer or a madman.

“Or do they say [of you], "A poet for whom we await a misfortune of time?"

Say, "Wait, for indeed I am, with you, among the waiters."

Or do their minds command them to [say] this, or are they a transgressing people?

Or do they say, "He has made it up"? Rather, they do not believe.

Then let them produce a statement like it, if they should be truthful.” (Qur'an 52: 29-34)

These verses are instructive, for a madman cannot produce any coherent message such as it is found in the Qur'an, and a soothsayer can be easily found out, and a poet, can't maintain such brilliance consistently and with time, his fame would fade, thus the challenge to the disbelievers... It is more than 1400 years ago, still, the disbelievers are still digging in the same rabbit hole as their predecessors of old, the Arab idol worshippers!

“Indeed, We have granted you, (O Muhammad), al-Kawthar.

So pray to your Lord and sacrifice (to Him alone).

Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.” (Qur’an 108:1-3)

The heart of Disbelief

This topic has been on my mind for a while, and the present reality has convinced me the necessity of writing about it. What I see as an issue with us Muslims is that we have neglected our responsibility to seek for knowledge, learn our religion and make daw'ah accordingly.

First and foremost, whatever forms disbelief appears, it is still one and same, and no matter the years apart, disbelievers tend to think alike! This got my attention when I realized that the modern day disbelievers and the hypocrites all reason same way as the idolaters of Quraish and the earlier disbelievers before the Prophet (Saw)! Their modus operandi might be different, but their level of thinking is same! The most important thing about this information is that the Qur'an had captured all their fickle scheming and once you see the weakness in their plots, you would realize the folly of their ways and what they call to. So I'll be looking at some of the information about the disbelievers majorly from the Qur’an as revealed over 1400 years ago and you would see that they have nothing to offer.

NB: The Muslim section of Nairaland from time, has always witnessed influx of trolls, they seek nothing but to argue and waste your precious time, they are losers and have nothing good to offer, when you see their posts, ignore, they are called trolls for a reason, and if you can't do that, remember the below verse...

"And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!"; (25:63)

So I begin...

1. Compromise on religion, call for reform

Allah (SWT) Says:

"They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so they (too) would compromise with you." (68:9)

The disbelievers and hypocrites know the only way to make your faith worthless is for you to compromise on your faith. They push this under different guises and the most prominent today is the call for reform. They hide under different labels to push for this, but their aim is only to destroy the religion from within.

Some hide under the pretense of curbing the spate of terrorism and violence witnessed in some part of the Muslim world, but the question is, what sort of reform do they want for Islam when Islam clearly has rules of engagement in times of war and in times of peace? When you learn the rules Islam had established in times of war, which exempts noncombatants, women, children, elderly, priests, houses of worship, trees, even animals if not for food, then you would be forced to ask what reforms?! What reforms do they want when Islam prohibits suicide and hell is the abode of one who does such?! What reforms do they seek when Islam states that in a state of war, when the enemy seek peace, you should also incline towards peace?! What reforms do they want when Islam states that you shouldn't transgress or that you shouldn't allow hatred to deny people justice?! If all these are part of the Shariah, then it becomes imperative to ask, what reforms do they seek for Islam?!

If not the above strategy, they come up with liberalism or secularism. They want Islam as a religion to be confined in the Masjid and the society should be left to people's desires. They want to promote all forms of immorality in the name of individual freedom and human rights. What they fail to understand is that all these ideologies are the result of some people's desires. They claim to be seeking freedom of choice but yet force their way of life on others, once you disagree with them, you are labelled and in the new social media parlance, you are 'cancelled'. They have become like a cult and the people fear to even critically ask questions else the backlash would be terrible! There is no doubt about it, it is either you follow the dictates of the Creator or that of the creation.

tintingz:
Ok, you don't have any logical reasons why the winged rabbit isn't real? If so, how did you arrive that Allah exist and the winged rabbit doesn't exist?

Ok, someone who sees a winged rabbit is psychotic?



So you just believe Allah is the first cause because you're Muslim? Is that your argument?

If all you claim as an atheist that we all know already is that you are seeing an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit and you believe what you are seeing is true, then I can't help your situation with any form of logic or reasoning! It becomes psychotic when you want me to argue about what you claim you see which you know is false to begin with. Please, do not insult your intellect because you want to argue!

The existence of God is not equal to the existence of your imaginary friend! This is against logic, false equivalence! That God exist is fundamental, it is a valid proposition to a meaningful understanding of the purpose of life which is a fundamental question to us. As Muslims, we have the Prophets and we have the Qur'an, a book guiding us to acknowledge and connect with God. You do not want to accept this and you have nothing except for skepticism, so you are coming up with ridiculous questions and reasonings all over the place!

Finally, as I have already established, it makes no sense doubting this fundamental knowledge of the existence of God, for that only leads to continuous doubts and like you have shown, you will keep on asking questions all over the place, doubting and more worrisome, bring up strange and ridiculous imaginations, like an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit, all just to keep digging into the rabbit hole of your self inflicted skepticism.

This is where I leave you...

tintingz:
My question is very simple and no my claims aren't false. How did you know the winged green invisible rabbit isn't real? You can't just say it's false, explain to me how you know?

Lol, this didn't go the way you had presumed, and now you are like a broken record.

I have established what I had intended in my initial post, the rabbit hole you are already in!

Isn't that a symptoms of a psychosis?

No!

Yes I know it's Islam section and I'm asking how you know Allah is the first cause? Any evidence or Allah spoke to you?

If you know where you are and what I believe, then you are still asking a silly question. Don't you parade yourself with confidence on being a former devout Muslim?

tintingz:
It doesn't need proof, it's a belief.

Of course you are not able to subject your claim to your skepticism, making a false claim and then doubting it would make you exemplify the psychotic disposition of a radical skeptic as I had proposed earlier. You know what you claim is false, I don't need to doubt it, I know for certain that it is false. When you doubt the fundamental knowledge, it predisposes you to a continuous circle of doubts... Thus, it is absolutely a waste of time to engage in argumentation on this...That is indeed what I have established already.

But I know you are trying to equate believe in God as same as your supposed believe in your imaginary friend, but that is an epic fail, cos you know your imaginary friend is false and you can't prove otherwise, whereas God's existence is not based on your imagination or that of anyone but rather the the fact that fundamentally, we are predisposed to believe this, just as we are predisposed to believe that there is good and bad (morality), cause and effect, actions and consequences etc. No amount of philosophical argumentations can affirm or negate these fundamental knowledge! That is why you are perpetually uncertain! It is that simple!

But he sees angels, rode on flying donkey and believe a plate of meal can talk.

So?

Ok, I assume your answer is Allah. So how did you know Allah is the first cause?

That is still a silly question to ask a Muslim in an Islamic section!

whitelotus:





Are you trolling or what?

Tintingz, is this the childish behaviour you normally put up with?

I should be asking that question, but since you are playing the sidekick, I wouldn't take you seriously...