₦airaland Forum

Rashduct4luv:
I can only laugh in Nigeria at the bolded. Ustadh Faqeeh!

Call it intolerance. Islamic law is intolerant to homosexuals. Nigerian law too is intolerant to it too. Don't infect us with gayism.

Bro, he is a mufti o!

tintingz:
Things changes, research evolves so what's your point?

I will keep arguing this, there's no phenomena that's unnatural in a natural world, every phenomena are natural whether positive, negative, explained, un-explained, known and unknown.

There's no absolute normality, it's intersubjective.

Yep, those sociopaths and psychopathic serial killers are actually normal, since killing is natural, animals do kill too, and humans have been killing each other since time immemorial, let's just accept them for who they are, they were born like that, we should love them...Oh they cause harm to others?! Isn't that not also natural?! I'm sure you cause harm to animals you eat too, oh sorry, animals don't matter or do they?! But aren't humans animals too?! Yep, what is normal is intersubjective, a whole lot of mad people would agree they are normal isn't it?!

#Jokers!

Saucyxo:
Unfortunately for you babes, it's not a mental disorder. . That's not your business or my business. Not everyone follows the ruling of the Quran. Regardless kids should be taught to be tolerant in school.

Sins are hated and we are all sinners. You sin, I sin. So we should all hate eachother and ignore all the verses that preach love in the Quran.

It is not a mental disorder based on your perception. Islam teaches tolerance, once you understand the limits and don't go beyond.

You can't be doing what is wrong and be proud of it and then want people to love you, it doesn't work like that!

JeromeBlack:
This is what happens when you lack logic and conceptualisation as a result of only accepting Islamic jurisprudence.

Oga, secular morality and jurisprudence in the west relies on four central philosophies

1. Avoding harm to human beings
2. Creating equality between different people
3. Punishment from an authorized body as a deterrent
4. Having laws that applies to everyone equally.


Gays do not cause any harm to anyone. They are human beings and deserve equal rights. This is in line with points 1 and 2. Their equality is protected by laws in point 4. that applies to everyone equally.


Islamic jurisprudence does not care about point 2. It sees certain people as less than others. The prophet is a prime example. The prophet had over 10 wives while the common Muslim man is limited to 4 wives. Then there are women, who in Islam can only marry one husband.

Does this conceptual logic and philosophical perception of secular morality and jurisprudence encourages that you must force all to accept whatever the west brings forth as the absolute truth?!

I know the west to you is 'god' but have you taken your time to think about harm to the fabrics of society and the family system which Islamic Jurisprudence proposes as part of its cardinal goals to protect?!

Saucyxo:
Then babes you can say the same thing about any single human behaviour that has been debunked. So black people obviously are incapable of handling freedom and should be slaves. And even those that haven't been debunked. Having sex for pleasure rather than procreation is a mental illness obviously.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder or illness. We can move on. Otherwise I agree with your post. Everyone knows homosexuality is haram but we shouldn't hate. We should be righteous and treat them righteously.

Oh, you should know that the arguments (much that I have witnessed) always boils down to science and what empirical evidences are available to support the claims!

Anyways, there is always an excuse for mental disorder in Islam, but if it is a conscious act, knowing fully well that it is haram, then there ain't no excuses!

With regards to hatred, sins are hated, and those who are sinful and are proudly so are hated even more, but again, that doesn't mean to be unjust towards such persons....

Saucyxo:
Theres no empirical evidence that anything is normal in terms of human behaviour. Show me evidence of anything being normal other than just societal norms and how things are perceived. All you have to do is read the findings of many psychologists and psychoanalysts including the father of them all Sigmund Freud, who explicitly said it was not an illness or a disease.

And that is the point of the quoted article. What the supposed authorities on mental health hold as 'scientific' evidence to declare homosexuality as normal is nothing more than anecdotal and antiquated perceptions! With such perceptions, perhaps we shall still get to a point where psychopaths and serial killers would be accepted as normal isn't it?!

Saucyxo:
"I stand to be corrected... " that's the paragraph I'm going to reply you on. There were many many many mental disorders back in the days. That's why we have an ever evolving educational system. There was also a mental disorder that "proved" black people were incapable of handling freedom and they should remain slaves. These same medical professionals used to drink heroine to cure sickness and approved putting cocaine in coca cola. They were wrong. They admitted they were wrong. Homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

The anus is not a sex organ but it has a g spot just for pleasure. . Many men, hetro and homo sexuals love stimulating their anal g spot. You should try it .

The last point about what is normal in a relationship in terms of gender roles isn't even worthy of discussion I'm sorry.

You would have helped your case better if you presented the empirical evidences that suggests homosexuality is normal, if you must know, it is these same empirical evidences that I seek that made your examples to be reviewed or outrightly rejected!

First of all, as Muslms, the facts remain that homosexuality is haram! There is no amount of civilization that can change this! That the world is so messed up, and we have societies that promote this behavior is not a yardstick for Islam!

Prior to all the UN, civil rights activism, amnesty international etc., Islam had stated clearly:

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do." (Sahih International Qur'an 5:

Of course, Islam frowns at homosexuality and homosexuals, but wouldn't deny the fact that they are humans and have the right to life, but based on principles of what is acceptable in an Islamic society. Islam frowns at overt expression of sexuality and sexual relations, even amongst lawful couples. So normally, your sexual adventures are to remain private, the problem is when you start making what ought to be private to the public and then forcing others to accept it as normal.

I stand to be corrected, but I haven't read any empirical evidence that suggests that homosexuality is normal, up till the 20th century, it was regarded as a mental disorder! Regardless of what science might uncover, it is pure common sense to know that the anus isn't a sex organ, a man and man or woman and woman is odd and doesn't make sense...The most awkward part is to now see these gays acting the opposite sexes in a relationship! Like it is obvious what is normal is a man and woman!

The below excerpt captures why I believe there is indeed a surreptitious plot to force the narrative that homosexuality is normal...

"The American Psychiatric Association and the APA provide the aforementioned studies as the scientific evidence that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexual orientation. The APA noted that homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social and vocational capabilities. Further, the APA urges all mental health professionals to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations (Glassgold et al. 2009, 23–24). The Amici Curiae Brief reiterates the same claim, and it supports the claim by citing the aforementioned literature which looked at “adjustment” and social functioning (Brief of Amici Curiae 2003, 11). As has been shown, though, adjustment and social functioning are irrelevant to determining whether the sexual deviations are mental disorders. As a result, the scientific studies that only looked at measures of adjustment and social functioning draw erroneous conclusions and result in “false negatives” as Spitzer, Wakefield, Bieber, and others have noted. Unfortunately, fatally flawed reasoning has served as the basis for “rigorous” and “scientific evidence” supporting the claim that homosexuality is not a mental disorder but is rather a normal variant of human sexual orientation. One cannot conclude (with Alfred Kinsey) that a human behavior is normal simply because it is more common than previously assumed—otherwise all human behaviors, including serial killing, would have to be considered normal. One cannot conclude (with C.S. Ford and Frank A. Beach) that there is “nothing unnatural” about a behavior simply because it is observed in both humans and animals— otherwise cannibalism would have to be considered to be natural. Most importantly, One cannot conclude (with Evelyn Hooker, John C. Gonsiorek, the APA, the American Psychiatric Association, and others) that a mental condition is not disordered because it does not result in “maladjustment,” distress, or impairment in social functioning—otherwise, many mental disorders would have to be labeled erroneously as normal. The conclusions arrived at in the cited literature are not supported by the premises proposed to be scientific fact; the faulty works cannot be considered credible sources.It is always best to give others “the benefit of the doubt.” Maybe the APA and the American Psychiatric Association accidentally made catastrophic logical mistakes in the literature they cite as evidence supporting the claim that homosexuality (and other sexual deviances) is not a mental disorder; that scenario is quite possible. Still, one should not be naïve and ignore the potential for powerful organizations to perform advocacy science. There are major inconsistencies in logic as well as arbitrary applications of certain principles by those upheld as “authoritative” in identifying and diagnosing mental disorders. The present summary and analysis in this paper of the literature put forth as “rigorous” and “significant” empirical evidence uncovers major deficiencies—irrelevant, outdated, and absurd literature—and calls into question the credibility of the APA and the American Psychiatric Association’s discussion and identification of sexual disorders. Indeed, suspect anecdotes and antiquated data have been used in the debates surrounding homosexuality, but the evidence shows that even the authoritative sources on mental disorders are guilty of those charges."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771012/

usermane:
I didn't say "all running for a specific term" is limited to sun and moon. I said it is limited to sun, moon, night and day. You can't include earth, or you'll have to include heavens. And if you include the heavens then obviously "running for a specific term" is not referring to orbital motion.

Then what would it be referring to?!

usermane:
Well, I made this assumption apparently because I wanted you to see how a 7th century folk could understand this verse. Just put yourself in the shoes of the 7th century folks. "Resting place for the sun" could remind them of such pre-Islamic myths about the sun. We learn by association.

We all deal with assumptions when reading any document. You also have assumed so far. For instance, you assumed that if resting place is implying the place the sun goes at sunset, then resting place has to be a point that the sun will also rise from, rather than rise from the east or west. I believe this is why you disagree the sahih hadith by Abu Dharr supports my interpretation.

First of all, to give you an idea what companions of the Prophet (SAW) understanding looks like, you need to read how they answer questions posed to them by the Prophet(SAW). They would always revert back to the superiority of Allah's (SWT) knowledge and that of the Prophet (SAW). So when an aspect of knowledge isn't made plain to them, and they didn't ask, they would always subject their understanding to the fact that only Allah (SWT) knows best, after they might have exercised their "ijtihad" They are not arrogant lots who arrogate knowledge to themselves, and hence they seek accurate and authentic evidences to back up any opinion or claim!

I do not deal with assumptions on issues of my beliefs! I don't hold assumptions as facts, and would not base my interpretations on assumptions. You are the one that came up with the assumption of "verifying" the resting place for the Sun!

usermane:
Fair enough. Please, note. This unclassified hadith was accepted by earlier Muslims. There is no such thing as classified or unclassified hadith, hadith is hadith, and whether a hadith is classified or authentic vary from Muslim to Muslim, scholar to scholar, era to era.

Nah, the science of hadith had been traced to the earliest generation of companions after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), so i do not know what you are talking about.

usermane:
OK. If that's what you say, then Houston we still have a problem. If the message is clear to every generation, why do scholars differ on numerous verses? The verse we discuss alone, has two differing understanding among the scholars, why?

I have pointed that out already bro.

usermane:
Also, I don't get how advancement of knowledge buttress the understanding of the message. It basically changes the understanding of the message. On reading the tafsir of earlier scholars on verses pertaining to astronomy, anatomy or embryology, I find that earlier Muslims understood the Qur'an quite differently from modern Muslims.

Let's take the verses in question as an example, so some scholars held the opinion of geocentric model, while others held to the heliocentric model, but are these models the basis of faith in Islam?! The answer is NO! I can summarize what the verses in question states thus:

1. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Heavens, Night and Day are all signs by the Creator of the Universe for us to reflect, think, reason!
2. All are running for a specific time, as it has been decreed
3. The Sun and Moon have separate orbits they move within
4. The earth is being wrapped by night and day...

Due to advancement in knowledge, evidences suggests that the earth is spherical (...hence my 4 above suggests the earth's rotation) and the heliocentric model is more accurate. So tell me where the Qur'an is in error?!

usermane:
Qur'an is a clarification of everything important on; "Spirituality, Laws and Ethics, History, Afterlife and Natural sciences."

Well, aforementioned verses are clear, and what are important to Muslims are also clear! The Qur'an is a book of guidance, to guide the sincere heart to acknowledging the truth!

usermane:
When you say a book is clear, everyone should be able to read it without even moderate differences in understanding. This is not the case with Qur'an, unfortunately. For instance, scholars disagree on essential issues;

Abrogated verses of the Qur'an
Permissibility for Offensive jihad
Fasting & Salat timing in the Arctic and Antarctic circles during the periods of midnight sun.
Permissibility of slavery etc.

I believe you understand this disagreements are not trivial.

Here are other areas the Qur'an is not clear;

What are the 7 heavens?
Who was Dhul Qarnayn and where are the walls he built to hold back Gog and Magog till the Armageddon?
Why does the Qur'an sometimes reads like the speech of other than God?

You can see there are issues with Qur'anic text. You can say the Qur'an is clear because it states it is clear, but it doesn't change reality.

All these have been addressed within my responses to you, there are no issues with the text of the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had made it clear, perhaps I should remind you:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Sahih international Q 3: 7)

When there are deviations in the heart, there happens to be little one can do to help, such persons keep seeking that which would justify their deviations, no matter the explanations provided!

budaatum:
This is my favorite verse in the Quran. I see it as a parallel to [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+21%3A25&version=KJV]John 21:25[/url]
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." Though one must bear in mind Islam's adherence to the command that God is a jealous God.

Thank you Sino.

You are welcome Buda, for what it's worth, God is one and same!

usermane:
Thank you.

OK, It seem I misunderstood you. I guess what you're saying is that this verse(39:5) implies an orbit the earth runs for a specified term.

But I don't see this! The phrase, "all running for a specified term" is referring to the sun, moon, night and day. If you want to refer the phrase to the earth as well, then you'll have to include the heavens - space. This won't make sense. I've not seen any tafsir supporting it either.

Besides, "term appointed" is not necessarily implying "orbit". There are two verses where "orbit" is directly mentioned in reference to celestial bodies; 21:33 and 36:40, the earth is never mentioned in any of them. And in both, day and night is mentioned!

You are welcome.

I believe "all running for a specific term" means what it means, after all, at a point everything created would perish, except the Creator! (Qur'an). Secondly, the Arabic used is plural, if it was just for the Sun and Moon, then the word would be in dual form (You see why I had advised you learn the language of the Qur'an?!)

Also, as I have pointed out earlier, it is not just until it is explicitly stated that you would come to such conclusions, that is why I alluded to using your thinking skills! When you read, "He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient" does it suggests that it is the movement of the Sun and the Moon doing this wrapping around?! Does the Moon bring about night?!

usermane:
It could imply a place of prostration if it is taken to be where the sun basically takes a break from the earth horizon.



But how?

See, the sun's resting place is not necessarily a point, a dead end. It could be a space. For instance, the ancient civilizations like the Sumerians believed this. To them, the sun enters a gate in the west(sunset), and travels through the underworld at night, and emerges through the gates in the east(sunrise).

It is not improbable that the resting place for the sun in the Qur'an could be a reference or allusion to the underworld for the sun in the Sumerian religion.

But there is nothing in the Qur'an or authentic hadiths that indicates this! If there is none, then it remains your assumptions! I don't deal with such!

usermane:
I have another narration. Not a classified hadith, but an hadith nonetheless. In The History of Al Tabari: General Introduction from the Creation to the Flood, vol 1, pg 234/235.. - Al Tabari reports a story relayed from the prophet by Ibn Abbas;

For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 springs in the west of black clay — this is (meant by) God's word: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," 442 meaning by "muddy (hami’ah)” black clay — and 180 springs in the east likewise of black clay, bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boils furiously. He continued. Every day and night, [65] the sun has a new place where it rises and a new place where it sets. The interval between them from beginning to end is longest for the day in summer and shortest in winter. This is (meant by) God's word: "The Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests,"

The resting place of the sun is between the points of sunset and sunrise.

I also do not use unclassified hadiths to form major opinions about my faith! There are important reasons why there is an aspect of Islamic knowledge known as science of hadiths...

usermane:
I gather what you're saying here is that certain verses were revealed before human knowledge advanced enough to fully understand them. And that these verses are to be better understood in future generations as human knowledge expanded. I held this view previously, but gave it away for two reasons.

1. This would mean the early Muslims could not verify some verses of the Qur'an, since human knowledge was not advanced enough to understand these verses in order to verify their accuracy.

2. This would also mean we can never be sure if we fully understand some of these verses. Our understanding today may in fact be wrong and later generation of Muslims with more advanced knowledge will look back and correct our interpretation.

No! I said the message of the Qur'an is clear to every generation, the advancement in knowledge only helps buttress the understanding of this message, and this doesn't suggest that the message was never understood, but to buttress the message as the truth form Allah (SWT)! Those who were in the time of the Prophet (SAW) saw the Prophet and witness the truth of the message of the Prophet (SAW), they do not need the heliocentric model to believe this truth, neither do they need the the anatomic view of the embryo's developmental stages in the womb!

The question you need to ask yourself is, what is the message of the Qur'an?!

usermane:
Yes, but those are not just signs. Those are also intended to teach man a bit of astronomy. Religion is science + spirituality. The Qur'an defines itself a clarification for everything.

Lol, yes indeed, the Qur'an does clarifies everything, and that is the reason why the first verses revealed talks about knowledge and seeking it extensively, for these advancements in all forms of knowledge, stems from the Creator! Aren't all the knowledge gathered thus far about the life, man and the universe?! And is Allah (SWT) not the creator of all these (according to Islam)?!

You should know that those scholars after the time of the Prophet (SAW) who were involved in different aspects of science were doing so based on this understanding of seeking beneficial knowledge...

usermane:
When I first replied you, notice I did not mention anything about scholars or even hadith. I have no doubt that your interpretation of the verse is considerable, but mine is just as considerable, even if not more considerable.

And this in itself is a problem with the Qur'an. There should not be the slightest chance that an erroneous view of reality be deducible from the Qur'an, especially among scholars so close to the days of Muhammad. The Qur'an defines itself as a clear book.

Whatever you wish to consider isn't the problem of the Qur'an, afterall, there are those who even take verses of the Qur'an out of context, erroneously (and sometimes on purpose) to justify their hate, terrorism, corruption, etc...The truth is always clear, and with a little bit of open-minded reasoning and reflection coupled with sincerity (or as Buda puts it, diligence and perseverance), you would always see the truth in the Qur'an, a clear book!

Difference of opinions amongst scholars, if not about the fundamentals of the religion, are entertained as part of their intellectual exercises, so, their mistakes are what they are, mistakes! They are humans and not free from making such as I might have made in my responses to you!

usermane:
Sure, it is not revealed how the sun prostrate, but it is revealed it goes somewhere. Now, that somewhere has to be outside our physical realm. But the sun is always in the physical realm.



The sun is not coming to the Throne from the east. The sun sets in the west. So it comes towards the Throne from the West. Returning to the whence it came from mean returning to the west and rising from the west. As one of the major signs of judgement day according to hadith.



I would have to be outside the physical realm.



Who knows? May be it is assumed there is another path for the sun, leading eastward from underneath the Throne of prostration to the east where it rises on earth horizon?

Your last statement here, makes all the above assumptions null! Except you do have another narration that states the path of the Sun to rise from the east?!

usermane:
But it says nothing about like this. It just states where the sun goes at sunset and is permitted to rise after prostration but one day it won't be allowed to rise from the east, it usual rising place. I thought this is straight forward. Remember the hadith on the greater sign of the resurrection; the sun rising from the west?

I would agree it is indeed straight forward, only issue here is your interpretation...At least, it seems 'resting place' wouldn't mean place of prostration, for that does not imply rest or does it?! Again, the narration talks about the last day, and the sign of the last day, bringing the verse in question into perspective. I also brought another verse which indicates that these celestial bodies do have a decreed term for their travels in their own orbits, but you just want to stick to what you want to argue with.

usermane:
It is not faulty, it is a very probable understanding. Even the scholars of Qur'an considered it.

Scholars views are not cast in stone, and are not binding! This is one of your faulty reasoning, I have read the tafsir of the same verse in tafsir Tabari, and there are different opinions, including the one I am presenting here! I have indicated earlier the importance of applying critical thinking in understanding the Qur'an, and the limitations of available knowledge!

usermane:
Ah, this is only one way of looking at it. And It is not indisputable. It is still highly plausible that this verse(36:38) is alluding to geocentric model of the universe - wherein the solar and lunar orbits are tied to diurnal cycle.

As to 39:5, this is surely speculation on your part. If you lived in the 7th century, reading the Qur'an and this verse won't give you the impression of earth movement. The Qur'an explicitly mentions the solar and lunar orbit, it is hard to understand why it didn't mention the earth orbit likewise, if it imply the earth revolve and rotate.

Also, I wonder why any time the Qur'an speak of lunar and solar orbit, it speak about day and night? The Qur'an seem to imply geocentric universe model more than helical model.

There is a reason the revelation of the Qur'an is unique and it is meant for all times! When Allah (SWT) says:

"Say, "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." (Sahih International Qur'an 18:109)

You should know that for every period in time, the people understood the message which is the same, the other aspects of knowledge that evolves would only help buttress this understanding!

As I have indicated earlier, the Qur'an isn't a book of astronomy or geography, and Allah (SWT) calls these celestial bodies and the night and day as signs for those who reflect!

usermane:
My position on 36:38 is the position of some of the scholars according to ibn Kathir; https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/36.38

I have addressed this above, but the problem with you is that you want to use a single opinion of some scholars to validate your own prejudicial views of the Qur'an, its interpretations and Islam in general!

usermane:
OK. Here is Hadith teaching that this verse is connected to diurnal cycle;
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/10

I always thought we agreed that the best way to grasp a verse with multiple possible meanings is to consider the subject of the neighboring verses.

Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

But the above narration is still not talking about the earth's movement, rather it talks about that of the Sun. Also, it is established in the Qur'an that everything in the heavens and the earth prostrates, but we humans have no clue HOW this is being done, hence, it is a matter beyond the comprehension of man.

Now, the narration talks about how the Sun will not be able to 'prostrate' (I'm I wrong to imagine you understand this to mean sunset?), and it would seek permission to go on its course which would be denied, but will be instructed to return whence it has come and so will rise in the west, one needs to ask, is the Sun not coming from the east?! If the Qur'an/hadith while talking about the movement of the Sun, is referring to the diurnal cycle or talking about the alternation of night and day, shouldn't it have returned to the east?! And how does the Sun sets in the west, only for it to rise in the east?! Where is this 'resting place', and how does this Sun, rise from its resting place from another place entirely?! Of course, at the end of the narration, it clearly states what the verse in question is really referring to, that there is a decreed point in time and space where the Sun's movements will reach and everything will change!

This narration only buttress the fact that your understanding taken from the interpretation of the Qur'an is faulty and parochial, and that the movements of the Sun and the Moon is quite different from the alternations of night and day!

usermane:
How can you speak on how day transitions into night without reference to earth rotation?

What is being 'strip of the day', when the night comes?

Are you the author of the Qur'an?! Is the Qur'an a scientific book that want to teach you in details, geography and astronomy?! Even so, the fact that Allah (SWT) informed us that these celestial bodies do have their own orbits, should easily make you know that earth would definitely also have its own motion and its own orbit!

Let me help you with an appropriate verse:

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (Sahih International Qur'an 39: 5)

I hope it is getting clearer?! Can you see the distinctions?! Night and day a la earth's rotation, and Sun and Moon, running specific term and being useful for earth and its inhabitants?!

usermane:
Then what is the purpose of translation? It is the responsibility of the translators to translate to reflect the Arabic text. Even if I master Arabic, I'll basically be translating Qur'an for myself.

Bro, it is beyond mastering the Arabic language, the translators would always try their best, but they are also limited by their own knowledge and understanding, not to mention the limitation associated in not making the whole thing too voluminous! Hence, the need for righteous Scholars and a sincere mind to learn and understand the Qur'an.

usermane:
Salaam. Here are the problems;

1. We have not verified any 'resting place' for the sun.

Context is important. Note, 'resting place' here most likely has to do with diurnal cycle than end of the world.

What are you verifying?! The important context is the verse quoted in red in my post, that the Sun and the Moon each float in their own orbits! The fact that the night and day are distinct as the verses indicated, doesn't mean the 'resting place' should be connected to the diurnal cycle! For starters, the Qur'an here is talking about the Sun and moon moving in their own orbits!

usermane:
Also problematic is that these verses do not seem to correlate night and day with earth rotation. For instance, verse 37; "We strip it of the day, and lo they are in darkness." This sounds to you like earth surface rotating from sun light to result in night?

2. Also, using the verb "overtake" for 'night' in verse 40 is problematic since the night is not a physical object, but an occurrence.

That is what I was saying up there, it is about the Sun and Moon's movements, and not that of the earth, and thus shouldn't be conflicted with the alternation of night and day!

If you have even just elementary knowledge about the language of the Qur'an, the Arabic language and its nuances as well as its grammatical and literary prowess, you wouldn't be asking your number 2 question or even the first! My advice, please check out the Bayyinah institute/TV on youtube, and perhaps learn a little bit about the language of the Qur'an!

budaatum:
In Christianity, after we had turned deaf ears to burning bushes and angels and shepherds and phophets and asses and before Paul and co, Jesus returned to the Father and sent us the Holy Ghost to help us determine the proper understanding of the Holy Words of God.

I feel certain islam must have something similar, if someone could help me please.

There isn't any 'Holy Ghost' to help understand the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had taken care of that for us, Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'n:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Qur'an 3:7 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

You would see for yourself when you do read the Qur'an, the clarity of the verses, and indeed there are verses that are allegorical and some that deals with the unseen, as Muslims, we believe everything as the true words of God, and what we do not understand from it buttresses the fact that our knowledge is indeed limited, and we can only know what is intended for us to know and understand.

The Prophet (SAW) was sent as a guide to bring us the message and also exemplify the this message. The revelation was best understood by the Prophet (SAW) and his immediate followers/students, who were much eager to learn by way of asking questions...So we do go back to the authentic narrations from the Prophet (SAW) and his companions to arrive at better understanding of the Qur'an. Of course, there are those who have dedicated their lives to the path of acquiring these knowledge of the religion, and thus we have scholars, who we can also seek understanding from.

Also, the Qur'an encourages us to reflect and reason while reading the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) wants us to employ critical thinking when we read the Qur'an, and not to be unmindful, for this would help us discover the wisdom and assist our understanding inherent it the verses, and build our confidence in the truth of the message.

Please take a look at the first verse usemane had quoted, he claims that it is unverified, but is the problem the verse or usermane?! I would only quote the remainder verses and you be the judge...

"And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit." (Qur'an 36:38-40 Picthall)

So as not to be confusing for other readers, let me quote another translation:

"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming." (Qur'an 36:38-40 Sahih International)

tintingz:
Humans don't know the future therefore we can't know outcome of any test, that's why test exist in the first place, if we know the future then testing people will be meaningless!

If I know your future which is your fate, give me reasons why I should test you?

God knowing the future changes everything, he already knows your fate, your fate has been destined already, whatever decisions you make has been destined, you can't escape it, consciousness or freewill does not change your fate/destiny or does it?

The fact is that humans do not know the future, and they are the ones being tested. I'm sure you focus on passing your tests rather than focusing on whether your lecturer had made up his mind on failing you. Please do tell, does focusing on your lecturers decisions help you in any way?! Islam teaches that every soul shall get what he worked for and deserves, does this suggests that God puts people in hell arbitrarily without recourse to the person's activities in this world?! Why are you making things up in your head to justify your disbelieve?!

You should know that if you are already taking a test that you need to pass, you have no other choice than to obey the rules and make sure you do the things right! It is foolishness to start arguing why there is a test or if the test giver already knows the outcome and thus the test is meaningless. you would only be wasting your time, and failure therefore would be certain! This doesn't affect the test giver in anyway, your failure is yours alone!

God gave you a gift of intellect, the ability to reason and make decisions, if you tintingz end up in hell without going through this world and facing the tests, would it have been fair and just to you?! You are not a goat, or a tree, think! By the way, God has given you the equal opportunity to choose paradise or hell, your destiny or fate depends on your choices! Except, of course you can prove that you are not acting by your own accord, you do not even think about what you are doing, you are unconsciously and mindlessly acting and you are being forced to disbelieve and act as a disbeliever! If you can't, then you shouldn't bring this sort of argument about God's knowledge in relation to individual's conscious choices and decisions again!

usermane:
So, I'm crazy for questioning why an all intelligent and most merciful creator would design women with menstruation, which He describes as both hurtful and impure? I'm crazy for asking why women would be designed to feel menstrual cramps every months? OK.

My post is quite clear enough, there is a reason the quote in blue is there. Anyways, so what has your question been able to achieve since you have been thinking and asking about it? Care to share?

usermane:
If all of humanity were content with the available knowledge within their culture and religion, you think our species would've progress this far? You think we'd have discovered vaccines or prophylactics if we were content with affliction and abatement of disease to be perfect design of God?

Lol, my post is clear on this, it is not by asking redundant questions...There is a difference between asking why God made women to menstruate and asking what is the function of menstruation and how to ameliorate the female condition during this period. I need not tell you which would bear fruits for the progress of humanity...

usermane:
Are you really sincere on this? What do you know about cloud seeding or genetic engineering? Are these not proof of that questioning the wisdom behind 'God's design' have sometimes served as man's first step in inventing to improve his quality of life?

Heck! It seems you did not comprehend my post!

usermane:
@underlined, Can you tell this to your sister, wife, daughter or niece every month when they have a heating pad on their abdomen to relieve menstrual cramps; or when their fast is broken by the first flow of menses at 5pm on a Ramadan afternoon?

Can you also tell this to all the menstruating women ostracized to menstruation hut every month, far away from their families?

Alhamdulillah, the females in my family understand the deen, they know the blessings inherent in the pains they go through in this life, and they know the mercy in the dictates of Islamic worship. Brah, they are fine with Islam, Alhamdulillah!

I do not know of menstruation hut, but Islam doesn't teach that!

usermane:
You really never thought of the contradictions between the concept of the world as divine test for man, and the concept of God as an all knowing entity who already knows the result of this test?

You're 150% convinced that God would create people and toss them into a test without consenting them? We're all trapped in this world like those kids in Maze Runner book/movie series?

First question, did your parent seek your consent before you were conceived and given birth into this world?

Contradictions are just of your own making, the tests are for you and not for God...Everyone knows the outcome of any test he/she participates in, it is either you pass or fail. God knowing the outcome doesn't change the fact that you are the one consciously making the decisions, or are you under any form of compulsion to ask these questions and either choose to believe or disbelieve?!

usermane:
Basically, all you have said is this, "God's design is perfect. Believe it, just believe it. I'm telling you, believe it". I'll remember to tell that to the next woman I meet who suffered two miscarriages due to ABO hemolytic disease of fetus.

Nah, I'm not saying you should believe anything, I only challenged you, since you've claimed there are flaws, it isn't perfect, etc. Create your own world and creatures the perfect way and let us see...

It doesn't really make sense if all you can do is just to complain and whine about God, I guess that would be your message to the woman suffering from the above-mentioned disease? Wow, what a solution!

usermane:
No ideology or belief is perfect in the real world. Everything is flawed on some level. I have written on the faults of atheism in the past, please see my debate with atheists in the following thread; https://www.nairaland.com/4955950/atheism-foolishness/3#74852487

But there are questions with theism that all the sages of Islam, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism can only answer with "God knows best". "God knows best" is an euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it." But these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily.

"But I will not philosophize, since philosophy is naught but a suit of garments for the decoration of a dummy figure.

Remember, philosophy is an argument; the world, which is your property, is an accumulation of facts." (The Magic Story, Frederic Van Rensselaer Dey)

Apparently, you have deviated further into whatever you wish to call it now from your Quranist ideology, I knew it was just a matter of time, eventually, everyone shall receive in full, wages of their actions...

The line of questioning is a pattern which is peculiar to disbelief, and there is no amount of philosophizing that can satisfy 'the questioner', except that it breeds more questioning and further doubts which eventually leads to more uncertainties about everything!

Knowledge is never fully grasped by any human living or dead, to try and seek answers to everything, and the way you want it to be and mean is akin to being crazy! Applying wisdom to the available knowledge guides in focusing on the right questions and making the right decisions and progress in living a purposeful life. Of course, when you do believe there is God, who is all Knowing and all Wise, you do not doubt this God's knowledge coupled with the Wisdom behind the creation the way it is...Again God in His divine authority, according to Islam, gave permission for man to think, reflect, explore, investigate, query whatever he can, for at the end of the day, the knowledge you would acquire from all these, cannot help you other than submit to the superiority of the Creator, of course that is if you are sincere to begin with. Hence, when all is said and done, there is no shred of doubt with respect to the fact that indeed Allah (SWT) Knows best!

The facts about the reality of this world is what we can all witness. We were never a part of anything as to how the world or the universe should be to question why this or that, or to even claim there are flaws...

So when you talk about the female menstruation, first, this is the way the creator wants it to be, no mistakes! Do you have a problem with it?! Well then, why not start by creating your own world and your own creatures the way you want them to be, or what else does it mean when you claim someone didn't do a good job?! Because you can do better right?! And thus the challenge, do better and let's see!

The most important thing is that Allah (SWT) created this world as a test, so whatever human beings go through, the challenges are indeed part of the test, and the solutions are all within our capacity in this world, whether we understand the reasons why or the wisdom behind them, Allah (SWT) would not ask us about that, but how we made good use of the free gift of being able to choose wisely our own deeds and actions and the intentions behind them! And part of such actions and intentions may include being involved in the course of alleviating the pains women go through rather than looking for reasons to substantiate your disbelief in God!

Yeah, FYI, there is paradise, which happens to be the reward for the tests and challenges, and what is most amusing is that we all seek this place, where everything is just the way we want, just that some want it to be here on earth (which is practically and spiritually impossible), while some of us know that it is indeed in the hereafter!

Empiree:
This no5 is my line of argument now.





I can't agree with albaqir for saying it is forbidden. Haba! That's why I said his choice of word was too heavy. It means we are wasting time all the centuries for praying taraweeh in congregation in the masjid?


Another point is, Sino acknowledged Sunnah is better here. That's, praying nawafil(taraweeh) at home rather than masjid. I have no problem with this at all. What I have problem with is, people who shout "Quran and Sunnah" up and down, especially masjid where I pray, Imam always comes up with this every jummah condemning bidia. He says "will you give up what is better for what is less than quality". Yet, taraweeh is congregated in his masjid. This is why I said all this back and forth hunts Alhusunnah too.


This imam in question is very strict on what he considers Sunnah and bidia. So I wonder why he doesn't adhere to what is better (taraweeh in the masjid or taraweeh in the house).

Congregational Taraweeh as it is done today in the masjid was by the virtues of ijma (of scholars) as acknowledged by islamqa.


As albaqir successfully argued his way out in this topic, if he uses the same approach on other practice (s) of Shia, it will hunt him too bcuz he strictly adheres to definition of bidia. That's bidiah is bidiah, good or bad leads astray according to him. This is exactly what Salafi imam where I pray says too.


All of us are full of double standards.

The problem is when you still see praying qiyamul layl in congregation at the masjid as being bid'ah...It is not! This much has been established in the narrations presented by the OP.

Any day any time, the acts which the Prophet (SAW) did, are the best and should be followed, since congregational qiyamu layl can be established from him (SAW) and the reason for discontinuing it as he did was for it not to be made obligatory for the ummah, then I see no double standards here...

This cannot be compared to say for example "nafilah oru eni", this is definitely bid'ah, even though good intentions brought this into existence, it is still bid'ah.

aadoiza:
I totally agree with this. Not all practices not done by the Prophet are bidiah, but the Allu sunnah say there are good and bad bidiah. I believe what you mean by introducing a good new practice is what they call good bidiah.


That No 5 point is, in all honesty, the right view. Praying congregational qiyamul layl in the masjid can't be haram. It may be less rewarding, though, not haram.

Good to see your inputs on Nairaland once again, sino. A brilliant man you are

There wouldn't have been an issue with regards to this if not that it has to do with sectarian predispositions.

May Allah continue to guide us and make us better Muslims, ameen.

AlBaqir:
"From midnight, and almost the whole night" is no doubt different from immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai when nobody has slept yet.

The question begging for answer is when does night starts?! Is there a narration that states that one must sleep before observing qiyamu layl?!

AlBaqir:
No One is arguing the tradition limited the Qiyam al-layl to just 3 nights, rather the limitation is in congregation, and that was for the purpose of night of majesty.


I just wonder why is this clear tradition is being smuggled to fit 29 or 30 days congregational tarawih immediately after Ishai or some minutes later?

Do you know more than the Prophet? Imitation of him is to do exactly what he does: that's the path of salaf al-Salih no more no less.

There is no where in the reports that suggests that congregation for qiyamu layl is prohibited except for the three nights, moreover, the reason for discontinuing the congregation by the Prophet (SAW) is well established, which is for it not to be made obligatory on every muslim!

Where the issue of the question which is well known to me i.e "do you know more than the Prophet (SAW)? would arise only if the Prophet (SAW) never observed the qiyamu layl in congregation to start with!

Imitation of the Prophet (SAW) is the best practice, but when it comes to supererogatory prayers there are allowances to do as one is capable of doing, and this is also an established sunnah!

AlBaqir:
Another Salafi scholar, Shaykh Dr. Muhammad b. Sa’id Raslan al-Makki, in his fatwa reiterates these six criteria also.[8]

Let us compare this with what the Ahlu Sunnah and Salafi observe today :

i. Reason: the second Caliph established it (or whatever the reason is but obviously it is  not to seek Laylat al-Qadr, as laylat al-Qadr is only observed during 3 aforementioned nights).

Qiyamu layl was established by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an and it is for worship, it is not suspended in the month of Ramdan. There are other activities one can engage in to seek laylatu-l-qadr such as reciting the Qur'an and dhikr!

AlBaqir:
ii. Type: Tarawih (in line with the ḥadīth of Abdur Rahman bin Abdul Qari) established by the Caliph

As above, the Caliph did not establish anything, it is qiyamu layl, as established by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an!

AlBaqir:
iii. Amount: Between 10 - 20 rak’ahs excluding shaf’ and al-witr.

It is supererogatory, you can even observe 2!

AlBaqir:
iv. Method: Congregational.

Congregational qiyamu layl is established from the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW)

AlBaqir:
v. Period: the whole night of Ramadan (29 or 30 nights), immediately or some minutes after salat al- Ishai.

1. Qiyamu layl does not have limitations as to the number of nights, it is a standing act of worship, it continues all year round!
2. It is called the night prayer, it commences at night, after Isha prayers have been observed. According to the Qur'an and the narrations you have brought, you can even pray more than half of the night!

AlBaqir:
vi. Place: Mosque.

It is established from the sunnah that the Prophet (SAW) prayed qiyamu layl in the mosque!

AlBaqir:
We ask how is this practice replicate the Prophet’s sunnah?

I ask, how does the above responses of mine negate the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW)?!

AlBaqir:
Conclusion
It is crystal clear the Prophet never observed qiyam al-layl or tarawih immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai. Likewise, he never offered it in congregations for 29 or 30 nights of Ramadan. Rather he constantly offered his supererogatory prayer (qiyam al-layl) individually in the middle of the night with the exception of 23rd, 25th and 27th nights which he offered in congregations. This is what is proven in line with the traditions of Ahlu as-Sunnah. Therefore, it is either the Ahlu as-Sunnah follows this practice of the Prophet or continue with the Bid’at (innovation in religion) established by the Caliph Umar ibn al-khattab. Obviously the latter cannot be smuggled into the first.

What is crystal clear is the fact that qiyamu layl is a supererogatory act of worship, it is established in the sunnah, and observing it individually or in congregation in the Masjid is permissible. The standards of Ahlu sunnah which is the Qur'an and Sunnah, does not in any way prohibit the observance in congregation in the Masjid, 10 -20 raka'aat, and after salatu-l-Isha! Again, Umar (ra) did not establish any different prayers from qiyamu layl of the Prophet (SAW), all what he did was to congregate all those observing the qiyamu layl in the Masjid behind a singe reciter!

AlBaqir:
HOW THE PROPHET ACTUALLY OBSERVED THE PURPORTED TARAWIH

Interestingly, contrary the aforementioned hadiths, there are few other Ahlu as-Sunnah’s hadith which suggested that the Prophet did led Qiyam al-layl in congregation on another occasion but with few stringent conditions. 

Ahlu as-Sunnah observe their tarawih for 29 or 30 nights (which starts immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai) in congregations contrary to what the report said on how the Prophet observed it.

Imam Ibn Khuzaymah documents:

Narrated Nu’aym b. Ziyad Abu Talhah al-Anmari:



I heard al-Nu’man b. Bashir saying on the pulpit of Hims: “We prayed qiyam al-layl with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, in the month of Ramadan, on the 23rd night till one-third of the night. Then, we prayed qiyam al-layl with him on the 25th night till midnight. Then, we prayed qiyam al-layl with him on the 27th night till we thought that we would miss al-falah; and we used to call it the suhur (i.e. early morning meal in Ramadan).

Shaykh al-A’zami says: Its chain is hasan.


Ibn Khuzaymah also documents:

 Narrated Jubayr b. Nufayr al-Hadrami, from Abu Dharr:

“We fasted along with the Prophet, peace be upon him, in Ramadan, and he did NOT lead us in qiyam al-layl until the 23rd night of the month. He led us in qiyam al-layl until one-third of the night passed. Then, he did not lead us in qiyam al-layl on the 24th night, and he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 25th night until midnight passed. So, I said, “O Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, if only we could carry on for the rest of this night of ours.” He said: “Whosoever does qiyam al-layl with the Imām until he finishes, the qiyam of a whole night will be written for him.” Then, he did not lead us in prayer until the 27th night of the month. So, he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 27th night and he gathered his family and his wives. He led us in qiyam al-layl until we feared that we would miss al-falah.” I said: “What is al-falah.” He said: “The suhur.”[5]

Shaykh al-A’zami comments: Its chain is sahih.

So, the Prophet only led the Sahabah in qiyam al-layl on the 23rd, 25th and 27th nights of Ramadan. He did NOT lead them on any other night. Imam Ibn Khuzaymah himself mentions this point when he says:


"The Prophet, peace be upon him, limited praying qiyam al-layl with the people to only these three nights because of the presence of Laylat al-Qadr among them."


Moreover, we understand from the second hadith above that the phrase “Whosoever does qiyam al layl with the Imam until he finishes, the qiyam of a whole night will be written for him” – which Salafis often quote to justify tarawih – relates only to those three nights and nothing else.

Thus, what are the characteristics of the night prayers which the Messenger performed with the Sahabah? Here they are:

i. Reason: To attain Laylat al-Qadr.

ii. Type: Tahajjud (in line with the ḥadīth of al-Hajjaj b. ‘Amr al-Ansari, which indicates that the Messenger only prayed tahajjud in the nights and nothing else).

iii. Amount: 8 rak’ahs (according to an authentic Sunni hadith of Umm al-Muminin ‘Aishah; then, al-shaf’ and al-witr, making it 11 rak’at in total)[6].

iv. Method: Congregational.

v. Period: 23rd night of Ramadan till after one-third of the night; 25th night till after midnight; and 27th night till the time of suhur.


 vi. Place: Mosque.


With these facts in mind, please pay close attention to these words of Salafi Shaykh al-‘Uthaymin:

"Therefore, brothers: No act of ‘ibadah is accepted except with the fulfilment of two fundamental conditions: one of them is sincerity to Allah, and the other is imitation of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. We already mentioned the proofs for that. We also say: verily, the imitation (of the Prophet) cannot be achieved except if it complies with the Divine Law in six matters, and they are: the reason, the type, the amount, the method, the period, and the place."[7]

This is actually interesting, at least, in the narrations presented here, the word qiyamu layl was used, hence, there is actually no difference between qiyamu layl and tarawih, which is also called tahajjud! Note if you may, the information about the duration of these nights, one third of the night, from midnight, and almost the whole night!

The narrations you have brought does not in any way limit qiyamu layl to just 3 nights, nor does it prohibit observing qiyamu layl in congregation in other nights! How you managed to get these conclusions is mind boggling, but I'm not surprised!

It is well established that the Prophet (SAW) admonished the companions to seek laylatu-l-qadr amongst the odd nights in the last ten days of Ramadan! This even gives credence to the fact that one can observe qiyamu layl in congregation! It should be noted that the Prophet (SAW) is not like any of us, and unlike us now who are not even sure if we started Ramadan on the proper date talk more of knowing the night of laylatu-l-qadr, it would be foolhardy to pick those days rather than observe it the whole last 10 days!

Praying qiyamu layl is prescribed by Allah (SWT), it is a supererogatory prayer, hence you observe as much as you can, even if it is just 2, and it can be performed in congregation as the Prophet (SAW) was reported to have observed it in congregation!

AlBaqir:
# Introduction
 
Tarawih as per Ahlu as-Sunnah (Sunni)’s belief and practice simply refer to supererogatory prayer (nawafil) prayed at night (immediately or some munutes) after salat al-Ishai during the holy month of Ramadan.
 
The majority’s view in the Sunni world is that it is a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet. Indeed, this claim is what makes it highly controversial.


# Genesis of Tarawih

Naturally, the Prophet used to observe Qiyam al-layl (late night payer) after being made obligatory for him by his Lord (see: Surat al-Isra:79; sura al-Muzammil: 1- 4). While this special prayer was only enjoined and made obligatory upon the Prophet, it is optional for his Ummah (followers, community). This was the reason why the Prophet used to pray it alone in the middle of the night.

During the holy month of Ramadan, the Prophet continued this routine act of praying the obligatory Qiyam al-layl. Alas, an incident occurred whereby certain number of his companions found him praying and stood behind him to pray (without his verbal approval for 3 days).

Prophet later disbanded the congregations urging them to pray the supererogatory prayer individually. In fact, he retorted at a point:

 " You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque in congregations) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you.  SO YOU PEOPLE, OFFER THIS PRAYER AT YOUR HOMES, FOR THE BEST PRAYER OF A PERSON IS THE ONE WHICH HE OFFERS AT HOME, EXCEPT THE COMPULSORY  (CONGREGATIONAL) PRAYERS".

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6113
In-book reference : Book 78, Hadith 140
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 134
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/140

Yep. I can say it has become a routine for you to repeat some issues on a yearly basis with additional twists and more sophistry...Be that as it may, the truth would always be evident, no matter how many lies being spread among the Muslims....

Qiyamu layl is indeed obligatory on the Prophet (SAW), but supererogatory on the Ummah, it is the fact! Again, Allah (SWT) stated the duration for this prayer in the Qur'an thus:

"O you who wraps himself [in clothing],
Arise [to pray] the night, except for a little -
Half of it - or subtract from it a little
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation."

So the question now arises, when does the night starts, and when does it end?! How do one pray the night prayer, half of it, subtract a little or add to half of the night?!

Again, did the Muslims during the time of the Prophet (SAW) not also engage in this qiyamu layl?! For what would have prompted them to come join the Prophet (SAW) when they saw him observing the qiyamu layl during Ramadan?!

The Prophet (SAW) gave a cogent reason for not allowing the companions to join him in this qiyamu layl in Ramadan, telling them to pray it in their houses lest it becomes compulsory on them to pray it in the mosque and in congregation!

This statement of the Prophet (SAW) did not in anyway make congregational qiyamu layl in Ramadan forbidden, nor bid'ah, rather a mercy upon the ummah!

So we can establish from the above,
1. The Prophet (SAW) prayed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
2. The Prophet led a congregation of qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
3. The companions observed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
4. The Prophet (SAW) didn't want qiyamu layl made obligatory on the Ummah so he discontinued the congregation in the mosque
5. Praying qiyamu layl at home is the best and this does not mean praying it in the mosque is forbidden!

AlBaqir:
# CALIPH UMAR'S INVENTION

A decade (or more) after the death of the Prophet, the second Caliph Umar ibn al-khattab  (after salat al-Ishai) invented what is today known and practice as "tarawih".

When the Caliph saw people praying individually inside the mosque, he gathered them under one Imam; hence, tarawih started. Then, he said:

 "What an excellent BID’A (i.e. innovation in religion) THIS IS; BUT the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.”

 Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2010
In-book reference : Book 31, Hadith 3
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 32, Hadith 227
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/31/3


And the reporter further interpret the saying of the Caliph to bury any misinterpretation. The reporter says, “He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night”.


 Observe, the Caliph never called this action of his “Sunnah of the Prophet”, rather he called it what it is “Bid’ah (innovation in religion).  To further emphasis it is Bid’ah, he highlighted that the Sunnah of the Prophet (where you observe the qiyam al-layl  in the middle of the night after waking up from sleep) is far better than what he invented (where under his instructions people observed the prayer in congregations before it’s specified time).

This statement of the Caliph never deter the Ahlu as-Sunnah from all sort of excuses: that he did not meant BID'AH, and that what he did was to revive the "Sunnah" of the Prophet which he (the Prophet) feared might turned obligatory.

Now let us go back to the Qur'an, where Allah (SWT) instructed the Prophet (SAW) to observe qiyamu layl...
"O you who wraps himself [in clothing],
Arise [to pray] the night, except for a little -
Half of it - or subtract from it a little
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation." (Q73:1-4)

It is established that qiyamu layl as the word connotes, is a prayer observed at night. Of course, this would be after Isha prayers. There is no restriction as to when one must observe this prayer with regards to the night except for after observing Isha prayers, thus what is established is the best of time as exemplified by the Prophet (SAW) which is later part of the night!

According to the narration, people were already observing their qiyamu layl when Umar (ra) met them, some individually, and others in small congregation. All Umar (ra) did was to bring them under one reciter, and he (ra), understanding the sunnah, indicated the best time for observing the qiyamu layl, as being in the later part of the night...

It is pertinent to note that:
1. Prayers, both obligatory and supererogatory generally have durations, the prescribed time which include the best time to observe them and also the time which it is forbidden.
2. There is absolutely nothing wrong in observing the prayers at the prescribed time, even if it doesn't fall at the best time.
3. Umar (ra) did not introduce any new form of prayers, it was still the same qiyamu layl that was observed with the Prophet (SAW)
4. Umar's bid'ah was to make them stand behind one Imam, rather than them being in the mosque and observing the qiyamu layl individually or in small groups.
5. Umar (ra) emphasized the best time to observe qiyamu layl according to the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW).

tintingz:
Not knowing what God has written down does not negate the idea ones life has been destined down.

Does my ignorant of what God has written down independent to the written down destiny?

If there's already a book that has my life, my choices, my end written down before I was born then everything I'm doing is not my freewill but what that has been written, I'm simply acting according to what has been programmed on me.

Except you want to deny your consciousness and your conscious and mindful ability to make decisions and choices, then you may claim not to have freewill. A book having all your life information and "destiny" doesn't take away your own conscious abilities, it is a lame excuse to be irresponsible, such reasoning invariably equates you and a goat, rather far worse, for the goat doesn't have such faculties has had been gifted to you! Part of which is the ability to reason and make informed decisions/choices!

But if it helps you feel better about your decision to become an atheist, then by all means, you are acting mindlessly, you actually do not know what you are doing, you do not reason or have any logical arguments for your choices, you have been programmed to choose this path, you are on a "highway to hell!"

tintingz:
There's also an exam because the school does not know who will pass and who will fail, that's why exam is conducted.

I will ask if that's my destiny written down?

What a paradox!

God planned everything and knows everything, now tell me do i have a choice when God before creation have written all my life down in a book?

Lol, do you know what God had written down for you?! Why are you arguing about what you do not know?! And are your decisions/choices forced on you?! how and by who?!

tintingz:
Allah is said to be omniscient and perfect with it that's main focus of the argument, me not knowing my future is part of my imperfection.

If I know you're someone with super-powers and can see the future, I will ask if I will fail or not before the exam.

The excuse God won't be having is did he know and planned everything?

Again, let's go back before Allah created everything, did he know and planned everything?

@bold, I would tell you that it is up to you, you have to take the exam for you to know the answer to your question! That is why there is an exam to begin with! You have been given the ability to pass or fail! It is your choice, choose wisely!

By the way, out of curiosity, what would even be your response if I told you that you would fail?!

Yes God Knows everything and planned everything, but gave you the rare opportunity to make your own choices! Your choices cannot be outside of God's plans, so if you are wise, you would make the right decisions and choices so as to make the best use of the opportunity given to you!

tintingz:
What's the point of exam when you know I will fail?

Something like "I know you will fail, I created you and i know your end before you're born, let me create you and test you fun"

Let's go back before Allah started creation, does he know what will happen at the end of everything?

Are you accepting that you are already a failure?!

I have not shared my knowing that you would fail, whether you would pass or fail you don't know and it is up to you! I only asked you what would be your response if I failed you based on my knowledge that you would fail!

The ability to make your choice is given to you, this is besides the hidden knowledge that is with Allah (SWT), except you want to accept that you know that you are really a failure, your choices as with regards to the tests, will eventually determine your end. The evidences would be shown to you, and at that point you would have no excuses!

tintingz:
You're still not getting the main question here.

Did you know the students will pass or fail long before you even met the student?

You planned the exam and you also know beforehand the outcome of each student's performance not after the exam, not knowing their outcome is the ignorance. That's the argument.

If you wait for the student to write exam before knowing the outcome, then you don't know all therefore not perfect.

If I fail you because I know you would fail, how would you accept that you failed?!

AbdelKabir:
The person – coupled with his grammatical mistakes – has done the exact thing ibn kathir mentioned about the pagans of Makkah: in order to make their words "pleasing to the ear" they add lies upon lies to the speech, talks about immorality, and so on. The Qur'an on the order hand gives accuracy in things and is sensible; yet, it is pleasing to the ears.

Indeed brother, it is quite obvious that it is a charade and can never be accepted by anyone as having any form of benefit or guidance! To make the case of the author more pathetic, he copied a verse verbatim from the Qur'an, this absolutely nullifies the attempt at challenging the Qur'an in anyway!

tintingz:
The master is testing you to know your decisions, understand my premise.

The purpose of test is for the master to your decisions, the person doing the test already have his own decision while the master is testing you to know your decision since he's ignorant of it.

God has already seen the picture of you where you will end up long before you were born, he has planned everything, what exactly is he testing you for?

If God show me the book of how I made my decisions from beginning to end, then I will ask, is this exactly his plan, is he aware of this long before I was born, were all these already written in the book of destiny?

I give you a test, I know the answers and i know the marks to give you if you write the correct answers, and also the marks to give you when you write the wrong answers, my decision about the marks to give you is already available to you even in your question paper! So I, the master is waiting for you my student to write your answers, I am not ignorant of the possible answers you can write, cos I planned the exams and the scores to be given! It would do you a lot of good if you are wise enough to write the right answers, but if you are focused on whether I know the answers myself or why the hell am I giving an exam which you have no other option than write, then your guess is as good as mine with regards to the outcome, you will FAIL! And if you come wailing that you failed, I will show you your answer booklet, where you were asking silly questions instead of giving the right answers, then it would be clear to you that it your fault "iwo lo fi owo ara e se ra e" It is as simple as that!

lanrexlan:
Lol, do you expect him to watch the videos with open mind? See his replies na. I don't really know what he was thinking while typing that. Even writing an ordinary article requires great deal of grasping topic and knowledge, not to talk of a book. Maybe he thought a book is just "copy and paste"

Akhee, Akhee, Akhee. How many times did I call you?! You expected someone who doesn't even understand Nahw and Sarf to understand Ardu!!!!!!! Akhee, are you expecting too much ni?! Imagine calling the rubbish up there "brilliant Arabic poetry" Smh


No waste your time faah

Brother mine, you no see me see wahala like this! In as much as tintingz is a waste of time to ague with, sometimes, showing the deficiencies in his reasoning and arguments helps to put him in his place!

Brother help me laugh small o, see brilliant lines of poetry:

"We shall hang him a hanging,
And choke him, a choking,
As for he who knocks on the door of a harlot, a knocking,"

He actually had to post English translation because he lacks even the simplest knowledge of Arabic grammar, even at that, it is quite obvious the ridiculousness of the nonsense he calls brilliant!



You see when it is said that these atheists here are foolish, it isn't an assumption, but a fact!