₦airaland Forum

DappaD:
Hello there. Sorry I couldn’t attend to you earlier I’ve been busy with a lot of work stuff.

Thank you for coming through. Be assured that I've taken my time to go through your response, exactly like the Bereans did (Acts 17:11). Yes, the scriptures you supplied has been examined.

Now, I'd also share with you my unbiased findings.

DappaD:
B. ^{To get the answer the second part of your question, we have to understand that while Jesus had a prehuman existence, he also had a beginning unlike his God who had always existed. Psalm 90:2, 93:2
But before we find out what his prehuman name was, it is worthy to note that before Jehovah God created the heavens and the earth, he had first created a Son who would later turn out to become his master worker along him during creation(Proverbs 8:22-31)
through him were created the invisible things(spirit sons of God) and the visible things(the earth and mankind) Colossians 1:16}

Okay, so Jesus had a prehuman existence before coming to earth. Also, He is a created Being unlike His Father who has always existed. Let's prove it (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

Firstly, your proof showing that Jesus was created is Proverbs 8:22-31. Upon examination of this scripture, what I find does not even remotely corroborate your claimed. Perhaps it's a mistake by you. Proverbs 8 in its entirety speaks of WISDOM. To understand, one need to start reading from verse 1, whilst verse 12 makes it much more obvious. In essence, the entirety of it is a personification of wisdom, showing how God possessed wisdom and used same to create the universe. So therefore, using Proverbs 8:22-31 as a supposed proof that Jesus was created is nothing but falsehood; a lie. But of course, I want to believe it was not intentional. Maybe it's a case of careless reading. So I urge you to take a look at it again.

Secondly, saying "before Jehovah God created the heavens and the earth" and quoting Colossians 1:16 in same breath, is a contradiction. This is because "Jehovah God" and Jesus, I want to believe, are different, going by your description. It's either they're different Personages or "Jehovah God" is the same One describes in Colossians 1:16 as the creator of the universe.

DappaD:
^{So when Jehovah said “Let us make man in our image” at Genesis 1:26}, he was actually talking to the person who later bore the name “Jesus” on earth. This was after Jehovah employed his firstborn Son during creation after which the other spirit sons of God who were created through Jesus, began to rejoice after the creation of earth and all that was in it. Job 38:7

The original Hebrew word for God in Genesis is Elohim, a collective noun like family, team etc, all of which have more than one member. Verse 1 reads: "In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heaven and the earth". With this understanding, we can better understand Colossians 1:16. But what is Elohim? When translated, it means "Mighty Ones". Verse 26 is then speaking of this Mighty Ones, actually, the God family, creating man in their image.

John 1:1 shares more light:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Here is a description of two Personages: 1. God 2. Word. Together, they're called God. Verse 14 makes it clear that it was the Word, equally called God, that became Jesus. So when wrapped, God is a family made up of two Personages, as against the pagan doctrine of the Trinity.

Furthermore, when you used "Son" and "spirit sons" of God, it should be understood that a Son like Jesus is BEGOTTEN whilst the angels are CREATED. Big difference. The former is directly fathered by God, which resulted in Mary's birth of that Son whilst the latter are created, more like out of nothing. Hebrews 1:14 succinctly captures who the angels are.

DappaD:
^{Evidence that Jesus was created is littered throughout the Scriptures. That was why apostle Paul under inspiration wrote that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”—Colossians 1:15-16
A more resounding evidence was the fact that when Jesus was giving instructions to John in the book of Revelations, he called himself: “The beginning of creation by God” or the beginning of God’s creative power—Revelation 3:14}

So far, you've not been able to prove that Jesus, in His prehuman, was created. Rather, evidence is on the contrary. Instead of creation He is the creator. Of course, you can't honestly use His earthly life to prove that He was created because we know in His prehuman, He existed as God, according to scriptural evidence.

Now, Revelation 3:14 is a mistranslation. Correctly, it should read, "The beginner of all creation". Interestingly, this is in perfect harmony with Colossians 1:15-17, as Jesus the King of creation. Also, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" can't possibly means that He was created. Evidence already shows that He is the creator instead. Perhaps it may interest you to know that just in verse 18, Paul was inspired to write that He is the "firstborn from the dead" and in Romans 8:29 He is the "firstborn among many brethren".

That is how the term "firstborn" should be understood. Indeed, Jesus is the FIRST that has died and came back to life, never to die again. He is also the FIRST born Son of God, with many more sons to be added to the God family at His appearing. The point exactly is that He is the preeminent.

DappaD:
^{The Bible reveals that Jehovah used one of his spirit sons (angel/messenger) to lead the Israelites out of Egypt into the promised Land. Exodus 23:20
That name of that angel became known as Michael, because Daniel 12:1 says that he—that is Michael—had been standing in behalf of the Israelites from ancient times and who will also stand up in the future for God’s people on earth. An interesting thought here is that Michael, the archangel(or chief angel) also has command over myriads and legions of angels. Revelation 12:7}

As a fact, it was Christ. He did not just lead the people out of Egypt, He is the God of the Old Testament (1 Corinthians 10:1-4). Yes, think of all those notable things and miracles; all were done by Christ, as the Word and God. Don't forget, God is Elohim.

Of course, you can't in all honesty called Christ - God, Angel Michael. Again, you can't use Daniel's prophecy to say that Michael is Jesus. Perhaps at this time, it may interest you to know that Michael is not the only archangel or chief angel in the scripture. He is, like Gabriel his counterpart said, "but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me" (Daniel 10:13). The phrase "one of the chief princes" means Michael is one out of many or others. In other word, he is not the only chief prince or archangel; there are "chief princes".

According to scripture, we know of at least three (3) archangels: 1. Michael 2. Gabriel 3. Lucifer (who became satan). Michael is often seen as the defender of God's people, whilst Gabriel is seen as that prince who carries God's special messages, like the visitation to Mary and of course, the prophecy he gave to Daniel, which covers events from Daniel's time till the end of this age. Of course, we know who Satan is now and how he was when he was created. Furthermore, under each of these princes are about one-third of other subordinate angels (Revelation 12:4). The scripture specifically said this of Lucifer, one of the chief.

So as you can see, Michael is not the only chief prince or son (angel), neither is he the same as Jesus. Available evidence makes it impossible. In fact, to say that Michael is Jesus is quite embarrassing. And not only that, it insults the Person of Jesus greatly, that the creator is ranked on the same level with His own creation. C'mon DappaD, it's not done.

Michael is who he is; one of the chief princes. Whilst Jesus, his creator, remains his God and Maker.

DappaD:
^{How does any of this relate to the name of Jesus in his prehuman state? Well, since Jesus is the one whom the book of Isaiah chapter 11 was talking about, then it strikes any ardent Bible reader that the verse 10 refers to Jesus as the one who will stand up as a signal in behalf of God’s people. This means that on a closer look, what we read earlier about Michael has a significant link with what Isaiah 11:10 says about Jesus}.

DappaD no, there's no link here in Isaiah that links Jesus to Michael. As seen already, Michael has always been the defender, called it the army chief. We have seen how he came to fight alongside Gabriel, when the latter was withstood by Lucifer (Satan).

Finally, here's the last undisputed proof of who Jesus was in His prehuman form:

^{For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. Hebrews 7:1-3}.

I know it does not yet specifically spelt Jesus out as Melchizedek. Of course, we'll see to it. But first, I want us to look at who this Melchizedek is, as captured in the bold: 1. He is "King of righteousness" and "King of peace" 2. This Personage has no father, no mother, no genealogy, no beginning of days nor end of life. Now, going by your description of "Jehovah God" as the only One without beginning and end, we can agree that He is the One and same as Melchizedek. Isn't it? But without speculation or assumption, let's find out who Paul, under inspiration, made known as Melchizedek:

^{For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood, verse 13 & 14}.

This is undeniable and can't be refuted. The One of whom Paul is speaking of as Melchizedek is non other than "our Lord" - Christ! Christ, before the Levitical priesthood was instituted or tithes received by Levites, of whom were those required by law to function in the office of the priest, was already functioning in that capacity. Knowing that the Levitical priesthood as established by the order of Aaron was temporary, God first established a priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek, which continues forever. And the same Person who functions then as Melchizedek the priest is the same Person functioning as our High Priest today. That Person is Christ! (You may want to read Hebrews 7 & 8 in its entirety).

---

In conclusion, I believe I've touched on the major points raised by you. I've also left out Jesus earthly life entirely for obvious reasons; understanding His prehuman existence is key to understanding His life on earth. Why did He prayed to God and relied on Him? Why did He glorified the Father? Why this...and why that. All wouldn't arise when Jesus is understood in His prehuman form. Why was He BEGOTTEN for instance? Simple. That was the only way He could be born of a woman, as an eternal Being who has always existed with His Father. It must also be noted that whilst this Mighty Ones were both God, as they say: "Two captain can't be in the same boat", One has to take the lead and the other follows. Philippians 2:5-8 perfectly captures the relationship in the God family. Jesus, though equally God, did not think of it as robbery to leave behind His glorious position as God in order to be born as flesh and blood. And this He did willingly.

DappaD, thank you so much for your time. And just in case you want us to further this discussion, of course write as soon as you can. Many thanks.

Okay, so there's this doctrine of JWs I've been hearing often. Also, it has generated a lot of heated arguments, much more than any other topic among JWs.

Now, I'd like us to discuss it. I mean, I want to hear specifically from a member of JWs here about this topic before I can draw my conclusions. The topic in question is: WHO IS JESUS. And please, I'd like it answered in the following order:

1. Before born of Mary, did Jesus have a preexistence? If yes, who was he before he was born of a woman?

2. Whilst he was on earth, who was he? And...

3. After ascension, what is his current position?

Please, I'd prefer DappaD to come for this discussion for obvious reason:

DappaD:
Amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses, there are some who haven’t attained a certain degree of spiritual maturity... (Ephesians 4:22)

I believe he has that needed maturity for a discussion of this kind. Thank you.

calebbintus:
Not just you, even your family and friends that you should help. May their blood not tell on you coz have shared you the truth. Keep being full of unbelief. If only there was still time, you will have taught your children the same error and they will never know you once heard the truth but you led yourself & them in extension astray. Ronu

And this truth lie is according to the book of Caleb, the Hebrew man of NairaLand.

Do you also pray to God in Hebrew? Obviously, you're also suffering from inferiority complex.

calebbintus:
Like I said. Pray its not too late for you.

The Hebrew man of NairaLand. When will you teach me the meaning of Yeshua in Hebrew? But I don't know Hebrew, does it mean I am condemned?

calebbintus:
Congratulation on fulfilling Prophecy. If its about Knowledge trust me you don't mind. I just need to give you the basic requirement.

Piece of advice; read!

calebbintus:
And let me tell you a truth you don't know. God does is things Once. The Great Commission given to the Apostles(Spreading the Good news to the world) was completed far back in the bible era as confirmed in Colossians 1:5-6. But your fore fathers refused to listen. Only to receive the message of the Anti Christ spread by force & Voilence(Colonisation etc) causing the falling away in 2 Thess 2:3. And its all in prophecy. So the hammer will land, if it has not started already

You don't even know the basics like names, is it prophecy you know?

Such a funny guy.

calebbintus:
The real Joke is you. Worshipping the False God. You were warned about in 2Thess 2:4. The question is not that you are making a mistake. You are Worshipping a Greek diety.

Is "God" an English or Hebrew word? When will you start writing in Hebrew?

Apparently, you have much learning to do.

calebbintus:
Get a Hebrew Bible for the answer to your question

Assuming someone who knows nothing about Hebrew heard Yeshua from you for the first time, asked you what Yeshua means, this will be your response? Like seriously?

calebbintus:
Merely using your head you will know Yeshua and Jesus are English Alphabets. And are two different names. You can check the way Yeshua is written in Hebrew.

Interesting. So you know Yeshua is an English alphabet? How come you didn't write it in Hebrew? Don't you think by writing it in English, the name has been corrupted?

What a joke.

calebbintus:
...rejecting the true Good News of the Apostles of Yeshua only to pass onto the Counterfeit. And you still fail yourself. A pity

What is Yeshua?

calebbintus:
2ndly who told you New Testament was written in Greek? You've soaked in many lies. It was written in Hebrew and translated to Greek. You are long lost my brother. Old testament and New testament are Hebrew texts. Seek true knowledge bro. Not the lies they feed you. GO AND CHECK ALL THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS FOUND, NAG HAMMADI ETC RECOVERED ANCIENT SCROLLS. ALL WERE WRITTEN IN HEBREW AND ARAMAIC. GREEK MY FOOT. Ioesus my foot.

Still chasing shadows. Apparently, you're greatly deluded.

calebbintus:
You can feel free to love him. I love Yeshua the Messiah. Everyone act based on their level of Revelation. You like the multitude are heading to a destination no human will pray to get to.

The problem with the Sacred Names Sect enthusiast like you is that importance is placed on the phonetic sounds of the names above the actual meaning of those names. This is your case here:

calebbintus:
I know what it took to come out of the Jesus...

So you came out of Jesus into Yeshua? Amazing.

Yeshua is a Hebrew word, shortened form of Yehoshua, it can also be called Joshua. When translated to English, it means "to deliver or Savior". Messiah is also another Hebrew word meaning "the Anointed". Now, in the New Testament were Greek was the language of the day, Yeshua is translated to "lesous" and Messiah as "Messias or Christos". When rendered in English, lesous is Jesus and Christos is Christ. Lesous or Jesus means "the Eternal is the Savior" and Christos or Christ means "the Anointed One". In all of these differences in phonetics, whether in Hebrew, Greek or English, the meanings of these names remained the same.

So what exactly is the fuss about? Of what use or value is Yeshua to an Englishman for instance, if he does not understand what it means? Is there anywhere in scripture written that God or whatever you called Him must be specifically called upon using a particular language or phonetics, either in Hebrew, Greek, Afrikaans etc? What about those in Yoruba, Igbo, Efik etc?

Honestly, this is a classic example of chasing shadows instead of substance. If this is your own level of "revelation", then you may as well live like you have non.

Jehovah Witness 1-1 Apostate.

Returned Odd:

1 x = 2.50] x = 3.00] 2 x = 2.50

Who's winning? 1, 2 or draw?

It is big and equally a very good fish. But 20k is overpriced. 5-10k will do.

ikes9:
...So I ask again what is the scriptural backing for the rapture doctrine

There's non. Just pure fabrication; tradition of men.

Model404:
so what about others, what about those who haven't heard about jesus before, those humans of old who died without the salvation....

Understand that both the living and the dead will be given the opportunity to understand the mystery of the kingdom of heaven, and by that understanding receive eternal life if they retain that knowledge.

And for your information, the promise of God has always been ETERNAL LIFE OR DEATH (John 3:16). Life is life and death is death. How is one death when such person is still living, supposedly inside hell fire? Is life & death the same thing? It is common sense.

Paul feared that the saints will be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ (II Corinthians 11:3) and that fear was not misguided. Indeed, wicked people not satisfied with the simplicity of just dying for all eternity came up with nonsense fairy tale, actually pagan belief, of sinners living, being roasted and tortured in hell fire.

Again, is death & life the same thing? Are they not opposites?

A "hell" where death people (supposedly sinners) are roasted and tortured? It's a lie 100%

Last time I checked, "sexy" means this so-called "pastor" is finding women (other than his wife) sexually attractive. In other words, he wouldn't mind having sex with them.

Obviously, Oluyemi Fasipe can only pastor in night clubs and olosho joins.

Kingsnairaland:
Are you dreaming that guy will rather abuse you than answering that question

It is expected. But trust me, abuses and insults can never change the truth. I'm not bothered either.

Kingsnairaland:
He thinks he knows all that why when he makes mistakes he won't apologize

Ah, he is very knowledgeable o. That was why he said this of me:

jesusjnr2020:
...exposed the extent to which you lacked true knowledge.

So you see, he will proved us wrong, as one who have true knowledge.

Kingsnairaland:
Am waiting to see his so called wise trick this time

Stick around. Jesusjnr2020 wouldn't disappoint.

AntiChristian:
Paul allegedly said in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that God is not the author of confusion...

It is not "alleged". It is what it is: truth. Yes, God is not the author of confusion.

AntiChristian:
So why so much confusion on this thread? Law given to Moses by God vs law of Jesus whom you call God.

You yourself, even though a muslim, can tell who is confused here. The Op created a thread of which he has not even the slightest idea of what he is talking about.

My response here: https://www.nairaland.com/6628759/difference-law-moses-law-christ#103353047 made it obvious.

AntiChristian:
If there's a difference between the two laws then Jesus is not involved in the law of Moses, hence he's not God.

Interesting observation, I must admit. It's quite a shame that it took a muslim to picked this hole, as against someone who claimed Christianity.

Jesusjnr2020, this muslim has valid questions for you. Is it true that Jesus was not involved in:

1. The law of Moses,

2. The Law of Christ, is it the same as the Ten Commandments? If no, who gave the Ten Commandments?

3. Is Christ God?

Please do well to answer him. I myself will be very interested in the answer.

AntiChristian:
Jesus even claimed he never came to abolish the law of Moses so why the confusion?

Don't see it as a "claimed". Again, it is what it is: truth. All the same, jesusjnr2020 will answer you on whether he is confused or not.

achorladey:
Thank God say no be im be God. Omo, we no go live to tell the story at all. Make e calm down.

He would have declared Armageddon already on us

MaxInDHouse:
"By their FRUITS you will know them" nah! Matthew 7:16-18

Of course yes. Which fruits I have seen. Matthew 5:22.

MaxInDHouse:
He never carried any weapons neither did he allowed his followers to harm anyone {Luke 9:51-56} but he's firm in his words! John 8:24

...and He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth (Isaiah 53:7)

But you? Another Abubakar Shekau.

falseprophet:
the guy have lost it completely, he is a potential suicide bomber in defense of governing body

With the way he is going, yes. MaxInDHouse is an extremist.

MaxInDHouse:
if you don't believe that we are God's people you will never find any other group of worshipers that you can wholeheartedly agree with and that means destruction for you when God's Kingdom come!

He has resorted to direct threats. Obviously, insults is failing him. Now is time for threats of destruction.

MaxInDHouse:
Confused Dullard!

Interesting.

MaxInDHouse:
if you don't believe that we are God's people you will never find any other group of worshipers that you can wholeheartedly agree with and that means destruction for you when God's Kingdom come!

What could be eating you up? I'm afraid, you may soon go the way of Boko Haram.

MaxInDHouse:
Good!

So you quoted right because Jesus was facing a panel of partial judges, but in this case it's so called Christians that's been coming to this thread ever since i opened it with comments like the following:

Jesus taught us when to speak and when to be silent, the JWs here aren't before any panel so if you want to be respected try to respect them for you have no authority over them! Matthew 7:12

So then, what Jesus said should only be applied when facing a panel? It's conditional? Max why are you always interpreting your own Bible upside down?

falseprophet:
MaxInDHouse does'nt study bible, he only reads watchtower publications so he won't know who Jesus is.

It's obvious.

MaxInDHouse:
Of course Jesus wasn't a dumb lifeless idiot who can't stand to put you in your place when you misbehave towards him. John 8:44
So instead of assumptions why not read and meditate to know the character of Jesus in the Bible?

Here's the Jesus I know:

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)

This Jesus of the Bible also instructed His followers not to render emotions to others based on what is rendered to them. For example, followers of Jesus don't just love those who love them but also love even their enemies. Is it respect? They respect even those who don't respect them. (Luke 6:32).

A servant is not greater than his master (John 15:20). The Jesus of the Bible was insulted, vilified and persecuted in unthinkable ways. But yet, He was like One who is "dumb, so He opened not His mouth".

Do you have "another Jesus"? (2 Corinthians 11:4). It's obvious.

MaxInDHouse:
Keep deceiving yourselves!

So JWs aren't humans with feelings shey?
My friend, if you're a Christian you must learn to respect other people no matter their faith.
If you choose not to join them in their form of worship that's understandable but outrightly insulting, abusing and cursing them all because their faith differs is totally unacceptable!
That's why JWs don't have issues with Islamists because we respect everyone's beliefs. We will approach everyone with mild-temper and deep respect, greetings before we introduce ourselves and our purpose of coming. Matthew 10:11-13
But what about your folks?
You people will just stand up in the bus or in the corner of the streets and start raining curses on other religionists saying they will be roasted by your sad god for not accepting it's form of worship! Matthew 12:19
If you want to talk about manner of approach even Jesus himself has already condemned you people and your stupidity!

You mean Jesus instructed you this way?

MaxInDHouse:
No wonder you're all ashamed of your Churches!
So you're now after the group name no more personal identity, shey?
Funny clowns!
Jesus said "whatever you want men to do to you do likewise to them" {Matthew 7:12}
What are these miscreants coming here to insult JWs claiming?
Aren't they supposed to be Christians?
So now you want JWs to watch while you insult them simply because they're keeping their faith, shey?

Max is this how you "witness" for Jehovah? He must be very proud of you.

achorladey:
you haven't seen insult at all. Atleast you have never been called asinwin here. Loool!

Even respect them from now till forever. These ones will insult without blinking eyes and equally say they dont insult others.

Oh dear one called falseprophet and myself SCOUNDRELS just to make a point this morning.

E get as e be for this one.

I'm seeing their 'fine' examples. MaxInDHouse made me understand that whatever emotions is sent out to them is what they sent back to senders, whether of good or bad.

Indeed, such an exemplary group.

MaxInDHouse:
You only approach people with RESPECT and once you RESPECT people surely you'll be respected, but when you're determine to insult someone simply because he's standing on his faith then you don't worth any respect!

Is this how Jehovah thinks? Remember you're His "witness".

Max, if you only respect those who respect you, could that be what differentiate you from sinners?