₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Partakers of the house of FAITH began with Abel Sir {Hebrew 11:4-32} but partakers of the kingdom rule belongs only to Born Again Christians none of those who lived before John (baptist) qualified for this special privilege! Matthew 11:11
Thanks!

Thank you for your response.

However, there's nothing like partakers of FAITH and partakers of KINGDOM RULE, supposedly two separate rewards or privileges. Also, naming kingdom rule (as you called it) as something supposedly promised or reserved for Christians, shows that you don't know the scope of the promises God made to Abraham. Take a look:

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God (Hebrews: 11:10).

This is talking of Abraham, that he, of course like true Christians today, was looking forward to a city whose builder and maker is God. This city is non other than the kingdom of God. Here:

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world... (Romans 4:13).

Again, this speaks of Abraham, to show that the promise was that of ultimately inheriting the world, i.e, the universe. This is why Christians are children of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. And then speaking of the household of faith, here's it:

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith

(Galatians 6:10).

So you see sir, whether in faith or in rulership, Abraham and other faithful servants of God through the ages, and those alive today, are partakers.

Regards.

PS: The gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached right from the foundation of the world:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began

(Acts 3:21).

So like I said earlier, there's nothing new in Christianity.

Hello sir, greetings.

MaxInDHouse:
Well Abraham, Isaac and Jacob weren't Christians so they can't be partakers of what belongs only to Born Again Christians! Matthew 11:11

Sorry, this is not right.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29)

.

Christians are also called children of Abraham and heirs of the same promise God made to him and his descendants. In other word, the very faith that Christians holds today is nothing new. In a sense, Abraham is the pioneer of Christianity, seeing that he's the father of the faithful (Romans 4:16).

Actually, it is what was promised to Abraham that Christians are partakers of, and not the reversed.

Regards.

blueAgent:
...they say 2 wrongs cannot make a right.

Good. That's the more reason why you should let it go.

Does it matter whether you're right and he's wrong, or vice versa? No, it does not, the truth is unchangeable.

Please let it go. We could be together on the same journey of finding the truth and embracing it. The only difference is that in a race, everybody cannot run at the same speed. However, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't catch up with others. It's just a matter of time.

blueAgent:
You are sounding like JW people.

Sorry, I'm not one of them.

blueAgent:
I would like you to answer those questions in my previous quote.

Friend, they've been answered. Please take your time to go through your own questions again and then see my response to them, side by side. I took my time to make sure nobody misses it.

But of course if you feel there's something I didn't cover, please don't hesitate to draw my attention. Let's reason it together.

Regards.

Hello friend, thank you for your response.

blueAgent:
You left a lot out, and you did not refute or digest the other points I raised.

Not really. I wanted us to have a foundation, starting with Christ's arrival. This is to make for easy understanding of events thereafter. I like it when it's one step at a time. So let's go...

blueAgent:
But before we go further, I will like you to answer this questions.
1. Will the saved inherit the Earth in it's current form?

No. Here's the truth:

"For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God, For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now" (Romans 8:19-22).

There you have it. The creation itself, i.e, the universe, awaits the glorious revealing of the sons and daughters of God, in order to be set free from its bondage and decay. This will happen when Christ sits on the "throne of his father David" and the saved are some sort of inaugurated or commissioned by Christ to begin the government of God or heaven on Earth. This period will spans for a thousand years in the first instance.

It's God own pleasure to renew the face of the Earth through His glorified sons and daughters; the saved.

blueAgent:
2. If the saved are not raputured, then what is that the Bible says will happen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no one is going into the third heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17).

With our knowledge of physics, also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

So then, I Thes. 4:17 does not picture people going to the third heaven, but the glorified saints ascending into the atmosphere. Consider:

Christ arrives Jerusalem and is seated on His throne (Matt. 25:31-34). Next, He send out His angels to gather His elects from the four corners of the earth (Matt. 24:30-31). How else are the angels supposed to gather the saints if not through ascension and descension, what some people called the act of "disappearing and appearing"?

Again, note that these glorified saints are to appear before Christ's judgement seat, and it has been established that this is not in heaven but right here on Earth: Jerusalem.

blueAgent:
Also note that the saved are told there reward is in Heaven.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

The word in bold says it all; reserved in heaven. Simply put, a Christian's reward is kept or reserved in heaven, to be revealed or given to those that are worthy at the coming of Christ. That it is reserved in heaven does not mean the saved are to go to heaven in order to get it: Christ is bringing it. Here's it:

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work" (Rev. 22:12). Did you see that? He is coming with His reward and not us going to get it.

My friend, please let's talk another time. If there's anything I missed, please bring it forth.

Many thanks.

Hello bro, thank you for your response.

blueAgent:
Here is my take on it.
First we must recognize the fact that God has made the Heaven for himself and the Earth has been made for man and his children.

Very good. We must also recognize that this is how it stands forever, without an exception in whatever form.

blueAgent:
1.Christ promised his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them, where he will be with them and he said it was in his father's house.
It's obvious that christ was talking about Heaven not Earth.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Now, let's tie pieces of scriptures together to form a coherent whole. Of course as a rule, "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" (Isaiah 28:10).

We'll start with Jesus arrival, as captured in Matthew 24:30 and elsewhere. It does appears like this is where a lot of people missed it, as the common thinking is that He is coming to take people to heaven or whisked them out of the earth.

Matthew 25:31-34 contains vital knowledge and readily helps in our discussion here. Actually, Matthew 25:31-34 is a continuation of the truth in Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Corinth. 15:51-52 and 1 Thes. 4:15-16. All these events are interconnected. Remember, "...line upon line...".

Let's take note of at least 3 cardinal points in Matthew 25;

1. Throne

2. Nations

3. Kingdom prepared...

So verse 31 pictures Jesus arrival, and He sits on His glorious throne. Now, we don't have to speculate or assume where this throne will be. The bible will always interpret itself, and Luke 1:32-33 prophecy holds the answer. Yes, He will sit on the "...throne of His father David". And this is no other place but Jerusalem, where king David ruled in the past. A new Jerusalem is coming, where the tabernacle of God will be with man (Rev. 21:2-3).

Next we see that the nations of the earth are gathered and those faithful ones are rewarded and are told finally, to "inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the earth". Does this prepared place or kingdom rings a bell? Yes, it should! Remember the prepared place in John 14:2-3 which you quoted? Oh yes...

As an addition, the word translated "mansion" does not refer to a literal one or a building. It means: offices, i.e, positions of authority. As a very good example, take a look at this:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28). Did you see that? The twelves apostles already have their positions of authority reserved by Christ, in the resurrection. Also, this truth flies against those coveting heaven, so to speak.

The whole scenario, settings or events happens and revolves around no other place but the earth! Nobody is raptured anywhere, supposedly to the third heaven (John 3:13).

My friend, take your time and go through it, do your own findings: prove it (1 Thes. 5:21). And please don't forget to bring back your findings.

Many thanks.

Kalatium:
Is Christmas not a christian thing?

There's nothing Christian about Christmas. You may want to read history on how and where your Christmas was borrowed from.

If Christmas is anything to go by, the rightful owners are pagans.

blueAgent:
That's a lot of work but I will respond with soon.

Thank you.

blueAgent:
Thank you for the compliments.
I understand your opinion on this subject having read your article on it, my position or opinion which is backed by the Bible is that Heaven will be the temporary home of the saved until after the 1000yrs, when God have created the new Heaven and Earth for the righteous or saved to dwell and inherit the Earth.

Thank you.

Do you mind to expound on how this will work out? You did a great job with the hell topic. I trust you can do it again.

Please prove it.

Hello friend, longest time.

Your topic brought me here. It's quite an interesting one and indeed, you've done justice to it.

Your submissions are true; they can be proven from the Bible. Well done!

But...

blueAgent:
...anyone who does not make Heaven is wicked in the sight of God

As it concerns the above claims in bold. By making heaven, what do you mean exactly? Living or going to heaven to spend eternity? If yes, can you prove it from the Bible?

Good to see you bro.

This is an interesting one. OP I'm going on this journey with you.

Ride on.

Ihedinobi3:
I'm afraid I don't see how God has guaranteed that every physical body must decay. The passage in 1 Corinthians 15 that you quoted doesn't seem to me to say anything of the sort. It only seems to me to say that for living believers who see the Lord return, their body must be changed in order to be with the Lord in eternity

That truth does not only applies to the living but the dead as well. See verse 52. However, here's the order of event:

1. The dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thes. 4:16).

2. Secondly, those alive.

In all of these, what matters is that both the living and the dead will undergo what the scripture called changed. But what changed? A change from perishable to imperishable, from mortal to immortal (verse 53). Put another way, our earthly body is nothing but dust/corruption which much be put off for that which is perfect - immortality - eternal life!

Ihedinobi3:
Some of us will not even see death, much less corruption, as 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 teaches.

Right, the scripture rightly says so. However, it's a fact that for imperishable/immortal body to be attained, then there's of necessity for that which is perishable/corrupt to be put off (verse 50 & 53).

Ihedinobi3:
I also know of no place where it is said that "corruption must be put off before the incorruptible can be attained." Did you have a verse in mind?

Okay. Please take a look at verse 50 & 53.

Ihedinobi3:
As for your compliment, I certainly thank you. I try to pay attention and be corrected when I read the Bible or discuss it with other believers who love the Truth or even when I teach, because, after all, I am only flesh and blood, sinful flesh and blood to boot.

You do well sir.

Ihedinobi3:
But I wish dearly that I could say the same about you.

Why not? You can always count on me to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11). Please be assured.

Ihedinobi3:
I don't recall holding a view that Moses was not buried here on earth at all, but perhaps you know where I expressed such a belief. I would be happy to own my error, if you could point it out to me. Otherwise, I don't really see why you say that I am admitting that Moses was buried here on earth as if I held the opposite view before. That would be a deceitful thing on your part to do.

There's no gain in deceit. It's simply not part of our work description. Here's what you said:

Ihedinobi3:
Both bodies were taken to the Third Heaven for preservation

You should have simply come out straight and say: 'Oh look, Moses was actually buried on earth at first. But you see, his body was later exhumed and transferred to heaven for a second burial or preservation'. It's clearer this way. Or don't you think?

However, the holy scriptures does not in anyway alludes, insinuate or even remotely say anything like that. It's purely a work of fiction. Sorry.

Ihedinobi3:
I encourage you to follow your own advice, friend. If the Bible says something, try to add or take nothing from it. Respect it enough to leave it as it is. If it says that Enoch did not experience death (Hebrews 11:5), then don't say that he did. If it says that Elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kings 2:1,11), then don't say that he was cast onto the earth somewhere.

It depends. Will you also pluck out your eyes if it causes you to sin?

You see, wisdom will always be profitable to direct. I expect you to know better.

Ihedinobi3:
So I strongly recommend accepting what I say. Still, if you cannot in good conscience accept it, believe what you will not be ashamed to present to the Lord when He judges or evaluates you, as the case may be.

Sorry friend, I can't. I wish I could agree with you: I wish it was the truth. But that's fine, we can't always agree.

Regards.

Ihedinobi3:
I don't really see anything that limits God as to His Will. The only limits that I know of are those that He imposes on Himself

Let's see an example of such limits: "So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 11:18). Also Romans 4:3.

Since God cannot lie, we are unshakably assured that indeed, Moses, Elijah, Enoch and the rest of mankind that died have all seen corruption from whence they came - dust! Or is it not written, "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality"? 1 Corinth. 15:53.

Just what exactly is corruption, a perishable body doing in God's abode- a domain of perfection? Oh, preservation you said. You mean God is preserving the same thing He said was corruption/perishable?

May God have mercy on us.

Ihedinobi3:
If God says that He will do a given thing, then He is bound by His Word to do it. Otherwise, nothing forces Him to do things this or that way.

Very good! This is the truth sir.

So then, be assured that God is bound to keep to His word. Have faith in His word that yes, it is appointed for every man to die once and see corruption, or for corruption to be put off before the incorruptible can be attained.

Of course, nothing is forced on God. But remember, God cannot lie.

Ihedinobi3:
It is a general principle that the bodies of human beings and animals decay, but the Lord has not bound Himself to carry out this sentence on every single case.

A lie.

Ihedinobi3:
Regarding Moses's gravesite, I don't disagree that he was buried on Earth at first.

This is a good one. It shows we are learning.

Ihedinobi3:
My position goes beyond what happened to his body at first. I hold that it was eventually taken to the third Heaven. I have raised Jude 1:9 to explain this. Do you have some other way of explaining it that does not only not attack some other part of the Scriptures, but in fact upholds and illuminates the rest of the Bible?

Oh no, sir we can't afford to take one step forward and two steps backward. This is not good.

How can you just admit that yes, Moses was buried on earth in line with the holy scripture, and at the same time, alleged that God later exhumed his body and whisked it to heaven? Please c'mon, we are all learned people here.

More disheartening is that, you're using Jude 9 as a cover or supposed proof text that Mose's body was taken to heaven for preservation. Sorry, this is you dangerously reading meanings to the scripture.

We do not know for a fact what led to archangel Michael's disagreement with Satan over the body of Moses. God does not say it, and a good Bible student or lover of the truth will readily admit it. If that knowledge was of any benefit to us, be assured that God would have let us know. The key message in Jude 9 however is not the disagreement between Michael and Satan, but the lesson therein.

Here's verse 8, "Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones". Which people? To understand, one simply have to read from verse 7 backward to be able to keep context in view.

In essence, the core message that Jude is passing in verse 9 is that, even archangel Michael, with one-third of angels under his command, could not dare blaspheme God by taking upon himself to rebuke Satan directly. Michael understood that he had no such authority on the "god of this world " (Ephesian 2:2). It can only be Christ (Matt. 4:10-11). Remember Lucifer, now Satan, was once an archangel too with one-third of angels, now demons, equally under his command (Rev. 12:4).

So dear friend, if God by His infinite wisdom chose to hide the tomb of Moses and Michael's quarrel with Satan, please respect that wisdom. Quit already from reading these meanings into scriptures.

It's ridiculous, to say the least. Really.

Ihedinobi3:
There may hav So far, it seems to me as if you have been taking wild liberties with the Scriptures here.

An irony. Many thanks.

Myer:
No where in the bible was it stated that Elijah was translated to another location.
What was stated was that he was taken to heaven.

What if I tell you that I was in heaven three days ago?

Indeed, ignorance is a choice.

ihedinobi2:
Hey there.

Hello friend.

ihedinobi2:
I think that you have ignored a few other options in your analysis.

Really? Okay, let's see.

ihedinobi2:
It is true that the Bible speaks of three heavens: the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space and the third Heaven which is not a part of this creation and where God dwells.

Good.

ihedinobi2:
That is to say that the Bible thinks of the human person as being a spirit that belongs to a unique body of its own. As such, it treats the "empty house," so to speak, as if it were the same as its owner, the spirit. So, when the Bible says that Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, it doesn't have to be understood as Elijah's spirit going into heaven. It can also be understood as Elijah's body going into heaven.

How can you come up with such wild assumption right after quoting verses like Ecclesiastes 12:7? What's Elijah's body doing in heaven when it's supposed to returned to the dust? Is Elijah's body much more important than the Lord's own that descended into hell for three days and night? Hmm.

ihedinobi2:
When we compare this interpretation to Jude 1:9, it seems to me to make perfect sense, since the same thing seems to be what is happening with Moses's body. Both bodies were taken to the Third Heaven for preservation.

Hello sir, are you kidding me now? Sorry, this is ridiculous!

Please take a look at this again:

ihedinobi2:
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NKJV)

Right there, the same scripture that you quoted, it is expressly stated where God buried Moses, in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor. Obviously, a location on Earth.

So which of Mose's body was taken to heaven for preservation, and which one was buried in the land of Moab? Oh forgive me, I forgot that it was his spirit that was buried.

Ridiculous!

ihedinobi2:
Clearly, it only said that no one had ever ascended to Heaven at the time of the Lord's speaking, not that no one ever would. No human being was allowed into the Third Heaven before Jesus Christ went to the Cross and paid the price for all human sin. That was why every Old Testament believer was taken to Paradise in Sheol until Jesus died on the Cross. Although it was a place of delight where they fellowshipped with God too, it was not "home" for them. That is why the Bible called them "prisoners" in Isaiah 14:17, Job 3:18, Psalm 68:18, and Ephesians 4:8. They had to wait until the Lord Jesus paid the price for their release, and after He did, they went to the Third Heaven with Him

Really? Okay, let's find out if this thing is so.

Acts 2:34, "For David did not ascend into heaven...". So where's David? "...David... he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us till this day", verse 29. Put another way, David is in his grave. Simple.

This is Peter speaking after the Lord's resurrection and ascension. In essence, Peter is simply amplifying the word of God as stated by Christ in John 3:13.

So how come sir? How could David, a man after God's heart not make it to heaven after the so-called release?

Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).

ihedinobi2:
The argument that you made that because humans cannot breathe outside the earth's atmosphere Elijah must not have gone beyond the atmosphere then can be seen not to have taken into full account the possibility that he had been separated from his body, so that breathing was no longer any kind of issue for him. His spirit was taken to Paradise while his body was taken to the Third Heaven.

Sorry, there's no such possibility. Your wild speculations does not just rubbished sound scriptural truths but even common sense. It's at best, a figment of the imagination, as far as the Bible is concerned.

ihedinobi2:
The other argument that Elijah wrote some letter after the whirlwind and chariots of fire incident is also pure speculation, from where I stand. There doesn't seem to me to be a single reason why we should think that it must be the same Elijah of whom the Bible speaks in that passage. When we take into account everything else that I have just said above, it seems to me that the already speculative argument completely collapses. It can't be the same Elijah since he was not even on the Earth anymore to be writing a letter.

You wouldn't know of course. I mean, how can you know when you don't even know the author of the letter?

Now we know who's speculating.

ihedinobi2:
That is to say this argument is not necessary at all to explain Elijah's disappearance when everything else in the Bible is considered. When we consider it, it distorts everything else that the Bible teaches.

You don't argue facts: they are stated; facts are facts.

The irony here is that, you're not just distorting scriptural truths but doing so in a very dangerous manner.

Regards.

Myer:
I'm simply sharing what the bible stated.

I understand.

However, we are also enjoined to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Timothy 2:15.

So it's not enough to just quote the Bible. Are you quoting it rightly?

Myer:
Elijah never died but was taken in a chariot of fire. 2 Kings 2:11-12.

Are you sure Elijah did not die? Can you prove it? After the "chariot of fire" incident, do you know where Elijah was taken to?

Be careful not to make assumptions. PROVE IT!

Whilst it is true that Elijah was indeed taken into heaven. The question is: WHICH HEAVEN?

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no human being has ever ascended into the third-heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain for Elijah;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)

We also know for a fact that human beings can't breath in space, so then, we are left with the ATMOSPHERE OR CLOUDS as the only option for Elijah. This is the only logical conclusion considering the facts.

Elijah was indeed taken into the atmosphere or clouds, supernaturally. Actually, he was transported to another location on earth, where he lived the remainder of his days in accordance with the Scripture. Also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

Further proof that Elijah was transported to another location is this. Few years after he was taken away, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah, rebuking him for his evil ways (II Chron. 21:12). Of course, this can only happen on Earth, not in heaven!

Regards.

Dtruthspeaker:
Enoch did not Die, He Lives!

The Bible says, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Have you proven that Enoch did not die, that he lives? Are you sure?

Whilst I understand that accepting glaring evidence that Enoch, like every other person died, could cause devastating blow to your probably 'heaven-bound or rapture' belief, but come on... This shouldn't be a problem to The Truth Speaker- a defender and one who speaks the truth. Right?

Okay, so let's be like the Bereans, and "...find out whether these things were so" Acts 17:11.

Speaking of Enoch, the holy scripture says, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him" Genesis 5:24. Please take note of the italicized word- walked. Of course I wouldn't bored you with the definition. You're a learned person.

Now, here's what you're telling us in essence: you're saying that 'Enoch is walking with God'. But the bible says "Enoch walked". Does it mean we don't know our tenses again? Whose report shall we believe, yours or that of the scripture?

So then, if Enoch did not die and lives, he would still be walking (present tense) with God and not walked (past tense). I'm sorry friend, you're spreading falsehood and not the truth.

Dtruthspeaker:
Where? Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!

Does this edifies anyone? I don't think so.

Many thanks.

"As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come"-- Proverbs 26:2.

Kobojunkiee:
And how does one earn death?

By transgressing the Law (1 John 3:4). And this is the result:

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23). Sir, I know we all know the meaning of the word, "WAGES". Every worker readily understands what it means.

Here's what Christ is saying: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:23). So then, for this work of iniquity, the Bible says that what sinners earn, i.e, its wages- the paycheck of every worker, is death.

Kobojunkiee:
Like I said, Sin is simply disobedience of God's commandment.

Thank you.

Kobojunkiee:
I hope you realize that you did not introduce anything new to what I said from the beginning about how those who believe but do not obey are the ones who will end in hell for eternity though?

That's the crux of the matter, sir. The thing is, one either believe and obey- keep the commandments- and is called a believer/Christian/child of God etc, or not. There's no room for sitting on the fence.

As a matter of fact, what differentiates a believer from Satan and his demons is simply obedience to God. Without keeping the Law, which we've seen to be sin, then the spirit of disobedience is the one at work. And that spirit is non other than Satan (Ephesian 2:2).

So then, there's nothing like one believes and don't obey, and is still a Christian. Obedience is what sets one apart from workers of iniquities.

Now let's complete the other half of Romans 6:23, "...but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Again, notice that death and life are named separately, two complete opposite. Also, notice that eternal life is a gift, of course, to those who obey God.

Here's what it means. If you say that some people, or the goats will end up in hell for all eternity, obviously then, they too have eternal life. HOW? But the promise/gift of eternal life is to faithful servants of God, not to sinners. Death, not life is to sinners. Actually, it's what they (sinners) earned by their own works. So saying that God will give this everlasting life to both faithful and the unfaithful is not only an error but a grave one. Does it matter whether one spends his/hers in heaven whilst the other in hell? Eternal life is eternal life, whether in heaven or hell.

Take a look at Matthew 25:46, "And these (goats) shall go away into everlasting punishment (obviously, death): but the righteous into life eternal". Very clear distinction! Also note, it is punishment not punishing. A punishment that lasts for all eternity but does not continue forever. Big difference!

Finally, God does not promise anyone eternal life in hell. It's either eternal life or eternal death, not both. Simple. Or is life and death the same thing?

Many thanks.

Kobojunkiee:
You still have your eyes closed to what is right in front of you for some reason.

Through whom did the curse of Sin and Death come on mankind? It was through Adam. Adam was the first to sin, and through Him the curse was placed on all mankind. We were condemned since then to die in our sins. That is the wages of sin that is spoken of in the Bible.

In Ezekiel 18, God swore by His name that in fact "the soul that sins will be the one to die" reaffirming that penalty He had placed on everyone who sinned, from the beginning.

Thank you so much.

However, I still don't get why you're so fixated on Adam's sin as if sin has changed or its penalty. You seems to make it look like the penalty of sin is only applicable to Adam, even when the Bible has said that all have earned its wages. Yes, eternal life is a GIFT, not what is earn. You don't earn eternal life but death. So sir, you should know that I'm not asking you who is the first man that sinned. I know how sin came into the world.

By the way, I asked you a question earlier: what is sin?

Kobojunkiee:
Jesus Christ is not the bringer of death for anyone to suggest that with Him came death to anyone. On the contrary, He brought life of the eternal kind to a world that was wrought by death and lots of it too.

Did anyone said that? I'm not aware of it.

All of mankind have earned the wages of sin, the only reward that everyone can rightfully lay claims to.

It was for this reason that Christ came, so that anyone who believes in Him, of course, not just to believe but keep His commandments, should not perish but have life. That is John 3:16 in essence.

Note, it says, "should not perish..." Why? Because death was imminent anyway, it was already there; automatic. So then, John 3:16 bears two opposites: 1. Eternal life 2. Death or to perish, of course, eternally.

Kobojunkiee:
Death has always meant eternal death from the beginning.

Exactly. Isn't that what we're saying? The penalty of sin still remains the same except for those who are being saved.

Kobojunkiee:
...So, there is no way that Jesus Christ could have come with the promise of eternal death.

He didn't need to. Mankind had already earned it.

Here's another way to get the message of John 3:16;

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24.

In all, it's either eternal life which is a gift or the wages of sin, not both. What is life and death?

Thank you.

Kobojunkie:
I think you have yet to comprehend any of what I have been saying even to this point.
The death penalty you speak of is the death penalty that God pronounced on Adam, and all His seeds from the beginning. That is the "wages of sin" that you speak refer to. That wage has been in place since after Adam sinned against God in the beginning.

Let's get something straight, sir.

The Bible says "the wages of sin is death", not the wages of Adam's sin. Also, "all have sinned...".

By implication, it simply means all of us have earned the wages of sin, which is why eternal life is a gift.

So it's no longer about Adam. We have all sinned.

You asked where is "eternal death" in John 3:16? Okay. What does it mean to perish?

Thank you.

Kobojunkie:
Is it possible that you have not in fact comprehended the message from the beginning? The wages of Sin(from Adam) is death. Scroll back up to my previous post where I highlighted how God condemned man to death for the sin of Adam from the beginning.

I understand you, sir.

You keep talking of the sin of Adam. Are you in anyway implying that sin has changed? What about its wages? Does it still carries the death penalty today?

Perhaps at this point, we may also consider what is sin.

Kobojunkie:
As for goats having eternal life, here again is John 3 vs 16 - 21 where John, the apostle tells of how all those who believe in Jesus Christ will obviously have eternal life

Don't you think if it were so, then even the devils are saved, seeing that they also believe? James 2:19. Do you think just believing is all it takes?

Again, did you noticed that same John 3:16 carries two opposite promise: 1. Eternal life & 2. Eternal death or damnation?

Also, we may have to consult the dictionary again for the meaning of life and death.

Kobojunkie:
...What that obviously implies is that the goats do have eternal life for them to have to spend it in Hell for ETERNITY.

But the promise is either eternal life or death, not both. What is the opposite of life again?

Many thanks.

Kobojunkie:
Yes, the death we were already condemned to since before Jesus Christ arrived on the seen. Did you not read my previous about how the world had already been condemned to death before Jesus came back to offer salvation only to those who believe in Him?
Prove what? That Goats have eternal life or that goats refused to do what Christ commanded?

Please prove that the goats have eternal life. Alongside it, what is the wages of sin?

Thank you for your time.

Kobojunkie:
My doctrine of punishment for believers? According to Jesus Christ, there are two kinds of believers... the Sheep and the Goats. Both sheep and goats have eternal life as a result of believing in Jesus Christ, but as it is turns out, it is not simply enough to believe, in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Thank you once again.

Looking at the bolded, please you may consider reminding me what is the wages of sin again.

Kobojunkie:
The Goat, who also have eternal life because they believed in Jesus Christ, are the believers who refused to do the works that Jesus Christ commanded of all those who believe in Him.

Prove it.

Kobojunkie:
...Jesus Christ, however, has instead come to save us from our condemnation(from the death that was already our fate).

Thank you so much for your response.

However, what I actually wanted to hear from you is your doctrine of punishment for believers and not unbelievers, who according to you will just die and that's the end.

Please explain it. Thank you.

Kobojunkie:
It is better for an atheist and anyone else who does not believe in Jesus Christ, not to accept Him, and perish(cease to exist after death), than to accept Jesus Christ only to end up in Hell for eternity afterwards.

Please expound.

CVM is in business for real, and I don't see them stopping now or later.

Go ahead and use them.

UyaiIncomparabl:
Proof.

Thank you Uyai.

LaReinaa:
If you ask for forgiveness and accept Christ with all your heart even a minute before you die, he will forgive you and you’re most likely to make heaven..

I haven’t died before so I can’t be too sure but that was what the Bible said..
God is indeed a merciful God!

Please any proof?

ggirl4real:
That's why I left Christianity

Oh really? Now that's interesting.

ggirl4real:
I don't understand why different Pastors and churches should be preaching different things, all backed up by the Bible

Eziokwu!

You did well, I must say. I mean if God is not the author of confusion, isn't it normal that where there's one, then it can be correctly said that God is not in such place(s)?

But of course, you can understand the Bible and it's true teachings.

ggirl4real:
No

If she had any unconfessed sin before she died, she is going to hell straight, not minding if she's been righteous all along.

Prove that people are going to hell or are currently burning in hell fire.

ggirl4real:
That is what my Sunday School teacher used to teach me.

Have you ever asked for prove? Perhaps it's time you find yourself a new teacher.