₦airaland Forum

PhysicsQED: Taharqa, I get your point, and what you wrote in #3 is something I've known for a while now, and it even ties in with the quotes from ancient historians (like Diodorus) and scholars noting that the "Ethiopians" colonized/started Egypt and it also ties in with Bruce Williams' work in a sense. So the issue of Egypt's culture being African is not really in question for me.

Okay.

PhysicsQED: But I noticed you cited articles by S.O.Y. Keita. Have you actually asked him what his views are on the "racial" makeup of the ancient Egyptians?

From what I've read and heard from him I get the distinct impression that he holds that many/most of the Copts and other Egyptians there today (many of which we would not consider "black" in the modern sense because of their appearance) are representative of the kind of "racial" diversity (in terms of physical/outward appearance) that we could expect to see in Egypt in ancient times (Predynastic times even). Basically, it doesn't seem to be the case that he considers modern Egyptians to be significantly different from ancient Egyptians.

This is not really true. The statement I believe you are referring to is a video where he said that the diversity we see in Egypt is a clue to what was obtained in ancient times, but if you really listen very well this statement was sort of ambiguous. He did not specify the period he was talking about,neither did he specify what we meant by 'variability'. And if like me who have read all his works, you understand the context Keita talks, he uses variability when talking about Africans. Also,in his written works he makes it very clear that the people of the Delta are not a good representative of what the general ancient populations were, although he insists there was general continuity ie the Moderns are mainly the descendants of the Ancients but who have variously mixed, with the people in the Delta more so:

The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians by Professor S O Y keita and Professor A J Boyce

PhysicsQED: You also referenced "mass migrations" of "Mediterraneans" and "Near Easterners". Can you provide any evidence to back up these claims about "mass migrations"? I haven't seen a single study supporting the idea that the majority of the people one sees in Egypt today are mostly or significantly descended from people who migrated into Egypt en masse at some much later period and I would like to be enlightened.

Okay, there are many references I can give you but would give this new(2012) study by Egyptologist Baines:

In the Late Period, internationalism,
migration, and trade are especially well
documented, and immigration from Thrace
and the Greek cities of Anatolia was
facilitated by the establishment of Naukratis
(attributed to the reign of Psammetichus I)
and the use of Greek mercenaries, first against
Nubia (Psammetichus II) and later against
Persian rule. The descendants of Greek
immigrants took Egyptian names and
operated within Egyptian cultural practices: a
dark stone anthropoid sarcophagus is
inscribed for the deceased Wahibraemhat,
whose ethnic heritage emerges in the Greek
names of his parents, Alexikles and Zenodote,
transcribed into hieroglyphs (Leiden AM4:
Grallert 2001). One of the possible markers of
ethnicity—language difference—may have
worked against acculturation for some ethnic
groups, though such boundaries remain highly
permeable. The Carian community established
at Memphis, for instance, inscribed Carian
and Egyptian in parallel on a series of sixthcentury
BCE tombstones, which also
combined Greek and Egyptian visual forms
(Ray 1995; Kammerzell 1993; Hockmann
2001).
Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in
332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass
immigration. Peaking in the third century
BCE, immigration from the Mediterranean,
the Black Sea coast, Asia Minor, and the Near
East may have numbered into the hundreds
of thousands and included foreign slaves and
prisoners of war as well as economic migrants
and military veterans. In Greek and Demotic
sources, almost 150 different ethnic labels
attest to the scale and geographic range of
immigration and ethnic-group settlement
(La’da 2003: 158 - 159). Many Greek-speaking
immigrants did not remain separate from the
existing population. Men like the Greek
cavalry officer Dryton married into Egyptian families (Lewis 1986: 88 - 103; Pomeroy 1990:103 - 124), and an Egyptian priest named
Horemheb, who lived at Naukratis during the
reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus, seems to
have had a Greek father and an Egyptian
mother (Derchain 2000: 20 - 21, 42 - 43).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/32r9x0jr

Hundred of thousands of Mediterraneans during this period! But even before them there were marked migrations from Hyksos(though most were driven from Egypt by Ahmose),'Libyans'(who were affected by the Sea Peoples movements and who later became Egyptians in the north and even ruled for some time),Romans, Carians, Jews(who had settlements in Delta and even in Elephantine) etc:

A relatively well documented case of this kind of transfer, of a complete society from one region to another, concerns the Libyan during the 1st millenium BC who feature so prominently as the enemy in Egyptian battle records of 2 or 3 centuries earlier. In a kind of reverse exodus, and despite the earlier defeats at the hands of the Egyptians, they successfully moved as a series of complete societies from their homelands that must laid along the Mediterranean coastal zone to the Nile Valley. There they set themselves up in position of authority, eventually becoming the rulers of large parts of the country.
Barry Kemp 2006 pg42 and pg43

In Roman Egypt, “Egyptian” became a
defined category for taxation purposes
(Egyptians paid the poll tax at full rate),
alongside categories for Roman citizens,
Alexandrian citizens, citizens of the other
Greek cities (Naukratis, Ptolemais, and later
Antinoopolis), Jews, and metropolites. These
last, who paid reduced poll tax, were residents
of the nome capitals (metropoleis), and their
status as members within the metropolite
category had to be proved through paternal
and maternal descent (Nelson 1979). Censuses
carried out under Augustus may have
identified the “hellenized” elites of the late
Ptolemaic Period and codified their
membership, thus turning a quasi-ethnic
group into a hereditary status group. Other
individuals in Roman Egypt may have selfidentified
as “Greeks,” but without
metropolite (or gymnasial) membership, they
would not have enjoyed any recognition as
such for legal or taxation purposes. A
collection of statutes known as the Gnomon of
the Idios Logos underscores the Roman
administration’s concern with status and
group membership: according to one
stipulation in the Gnomon, a child born to a
Roman citizen and an Egyptian, as defined by
Roman law, would inherit the status of the
lower-ranking parent (Nelson 1979: 2).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.

Other ethnic groups may have
maintained more closed boundaries, such as
Jewish communities[in the Delta, Memphis and Elephantine], or the Persian residents implied by a third-century BCE stela from
Saqqara, inscribed in Demotic for a man
named Khahap, “leader of the Medes” (fig. 4;
Vittmann 2003: 72, fig. 33: Berlin 2118, lost in
World War II).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.

PS: As you can deduced from the source above, it was during this period and slightly that Coptic Identity began to crystalized, though it was a more complex process.
Note that before this the Delta was sparsely population as most of the population was then in the valley, but after this, especially after the Ptolemaic and Roman periods, the Delta became the most important region as it remained to this day. Also, dont forget movements during Byzantine rule and of course Arab period(when northern Egypt was really cosmopolitan). Movements of Turks from the Mamluk dynasty(which they formed) to recent times should also not be forgotten. At a various times there were also movements of 'Nubians' from the south.
So there is no question that very significant migrations happened but the question should be what was the biological affinities of Early Egyptians relative to other Africans and non-Africans, and if this affinities changed due to these migrations.
EVERY study(Keita 1990,1993;Zarkzweski 2002,2007;Godde 2009;Starling and Stock 2007;Buzon 2006;Berry Kemp 2006, even Brace 2006 etc) clearly tell us that the Early Egyptians had greater biological affinities to some Africans to its south than to Near Easterners and Mediterraneans, as one would expect knowing that the main population source of these Early Egyptians was from the desiccating Eastern Sahara. They also tell us that while there was some level of continuity modern Egyptians and even Late Period Delta Egyptians(who were affected by these movements from Greeks,Romans,Carians,'Libyans'etc) changed- in fact Zakrzweski tell us that they are not a 'typical' Egyptian series. See these:

"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians.More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations(Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region"
-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables
from 418 adult Egyptian individuals,
from six periods, ranging in date from
c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared
with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-
350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal
Component and Canonical Discriminant
Function Analyses were undertaken,
on both pooled and single sex samples.
The results suggest a level of local population
continuity exists within the earlier
Egyptian populations, but that this was in
association with some change in population
structure, reflecting small-scale immigration
and admixture with new
groups. Most dramatically, the results
also indicate that the Egyptian series
from Howells global data set are morphologically
distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially
in cranial vault shape and height),
and thus show that this sample cannot be
considered to be a typical Egyptian series.
Intra-population and temporal variation
in ancient Egyptian crania(: abstact AAPA 2004)
by S.R. Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology,
University of Southampton, UK.

Also, see:

Dendrogram[in pg 57] which shows the relative closeness to or distance from one another of
males in 53 human populations from Africa and the Mediterranean region. The program has no
geographical or chronological intuity. It is thus reassuring to find expected groups
actually coming together, sometimes with a degree of chronological ordering, which suggest
evolutionary changes. The extent to which Late Period Giza cemetery is not representative
of Egypt as a whole but only one stage in population change is clear.
Berry Kemp 2006 pg 41

This is the dendrogram.Notice that modern Delta Egyptians are not in the primary block- who
are in the block? Why do you think we are seeing this pattern over and over again in all
these studies:
https://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo160/brandonpilcher/dendrogram2.jpg

As far as the Greeks copying the Egyptians, have you actually read Martin Bernal's Black Athena series of books (including his book responding to his critics, Black Athena Writes Back?) I think his basic thesis - even if some of the specifics are faulty or a few are tenuous - is highly plausible. Obviously the Greeks were innovators in their own right, but I suspect that many of their basics were essentially derivative of both Egyptian and Phoenician knowledge.

Yea. I am not downplaying the influence of Egypt and other older civilizations on Greece, but am just pointing out that 'social complexity' cannot be diffused from one society to the other, even if there are influences, as it usually grows out of the culture of a particular society. Greek philosophies is different from Egyptian philosophies and 'wisdoms'; the Greeks did not steal its philosophy from Egypt as some 'extreme' Afrocentrists assert and that is not what Bernal was arguing. He was showing that Eurocentrists for racist reasons downplayed the influence of Ancient Egypt(Africans) and Phoenicians(Semites) on Greek development, not that Greeks stool their knowledge from either of them. I agree with him.

The claims about China or (non-Greek) Europe or the Olmecs are nonsense to me however. I have read the claims and counter-claims and I know that those are bogus.

We agree Bros.

The tend of Nigerians to criticize could be a good thing, but it can also be sickening particularly if you are in a room full of Nigerians. The reason why he made the list is simply because he is the PRESIDENT of NIGERIA. Kind of like why the Russian, Chinese, Brazil,German etc leaders would make the list. For ill or for good, Nigeria is the most critical country in Africa, and this is what we should take away from this 'award'. We must also ask ourselves why we have not been able to fulfil our potentials and serve as the force of good for Africa; why this administration have not been able to remove this doubt?

@ PhysicsQED plz view my post here: https://www.nairaland.com/326177/tomb-art-ancient-egypt-black/6#10488076

This is a summary(with links )of the biocultural origins of the Ancient Egyptians-the purpose is to provide people with information that they can research themselves and help them form their own opinions, hopefully away from the different agendas that have distorted this topic:


Let me just try to do a summary of my understanding of the peopling of the Nile Valley as I have deduced from reading many scholars on this subject: The Badarian and Early Naqada predynastic cultures were the northermost,relatively younger variants of a wider spread culture mainly in the 5th and early 4th millennium BC(called variously-Nubian Neolithic Culture Group by Gatto2006,2011;or Middle Nile Culture by Ehret 1993; Pastoral Neolithic of the Nile by Wengrow 2006; Saharo-Nubian Neolithic by Anselin 2009)- other variants of this same culture included the Tasians,Abkans,Rayaynas,Kiddanians,Early A-Group,Final Western Desert Neolithic,Kadruka,Kerma Neolithic, Khartoum Neolithics(Kadero,El kadada,Sheinahab,Geili etc). This culture of course descended from the so-called Khartoum Variant, a cousin of the Early Khartoum-all part of the wide spread Saharo-Sudanese technocomplex. The Early Badarians and Naqadans migrated to a very sparsely populated Upper Egyptian(southern) Valley as the Eastern Sahara was rapidly drying up, carrying this 'Nubian Neolithic Culture Group' during the mid-5th Millenium BC, with elements that would them be synthesized and processed into the Naqadan culture, especially during the mid to late phases of the culture-this developed Naqadan culture is the famous Egyptian Culture that one sees in dynastic times.

The expanding Naqadan culture would then replace the Lower(northern)Neolithics(especially so-called Buto-Maadi culture) during the late 4th millenium BC, thereby forming cultural unity. The Early Lower Egyptians were likely mainly an indigenious but divergent population that likely had some gene flow with the Levant, and also cultural links that was sometimes intense (see The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa:A view from the archaeological record,2011 by Maria Gatto http://yale.academia.edu/MariaCGatto/Papers/544327/The_Nubian_Pastoral_Culture_as_Link_between_Egypt_and_Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record; Ancient Egyptian as an African Language,Egypt as an African Culture,1993 by Christopher Ehret http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3650562#p3650562;The Archaeology of Early Egypt:social transformation in North-East Africa,2006 by D.Wengrow pg 50-59 http://books.google.com.ng/books?id=W9OFBw7yGZkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false(wengrow 2006);Ancient Egypt in Africa,2003 edited by D. O'Connor and A. Reid pg 18-21 http://books.google.com.ng/books/about/ancient_egypt_in_africa.html?id=Zn3ViO-Vj-4C&redir_esc=y;Some Notes about an Early frican Pool of Cultures from which Emergered Egyptian Civilization,2011 by Alain Anselin http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Some+Notes+about+an+Early+frican+Pool+of+Cultures+from+which+Emergered+Egyptian+Civilization%2C2009+by+Alain+Anselin&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fxa.yimg.com%2Fkq%2Fgroups%2F6121162%2F1735188988%2Fname%2Fanselin.pdf&ei=4v1kT-HnFYr80QXC6rjcDA&usg=AFQjCNHRAzn0OGFL64C6SOiYmzJ9NM9GdA&cad=rja;Egypt and Sub-Saharan African: their interaction,1997 in Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa edited by Joseph Vogel http://wysinger.homestead.com/sub-saharan.html).

These early Badarians and Naqadans were, in the main, tropically/supertropically adapted indigenious northeast Africans that had greatest biological affinities with other northeast Africans and other southernly Africans,especially those in the horn and the sahel-sahara(see Egyptians,physical anthropology by Nancy Lovell in Encyclopedia of Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (ed) by Kathryn Bard and Steven Blacke http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=+Encyclopedia+of+Archaeology+of+Ancient+Egypt+%28ed%29+by+Kathryn+Bard+and+Steven+Blacke&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barnesandnoble.com%2Fw%2Fencyclopedia-of-the-archaeology-of-ancient-egypt-kathryn-bard%2F1007915524&ei=YAJlT9iPMsWs0QXiypm6CA&usg=AFQjCNGDNhq0i7UTceh-bdnqBhq3rW35_w;Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships byS. O. Y. Keita,1993 http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=keita+1993&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwysinger.homestead.com%2Fkeita-1993.pdf&ei=XSRlT4z6Con80QWauLCYDg&usg=AFQjCNHNpFKraSBWDs8c67vCNFQbIfCzkg&cad=rja;Studies of Ancient Crania from North Africa,1990 by S O Y Keita http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=keita+1990&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwysinger.homestead.com%2Fkeita-1993.pdf&ei=rSRlT6ynHem10QXukriRCA&usg=AFQjCNHNpFKraSBWDs8c67vCNFQbIfCzkg&cad=rja; Population Continuity or Population Change:
Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State,2007 by Sonia R. Zakrzewski http://soton.academia.edu/SoniaZakrzewski/Papers/1446838/Population_continuity_or_population_change_Formation_of_the_ancient_Egyptian_state;
A Bioarchaeological Perspective on State Formation In the Nile Valey,PhD Dissertation by Barbara SAnta,2004;Examination of Nubian and Egyptian Biological Distances:Suport for Biological Diffussion or in situ Development by Godde K,2009 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X09001176;



I would have loved to ask PhysicsQED some questions, especially he meant by some of the 'non-Black' north African people that he said were part of Ancient Egypt from the start.
Anyways I would like to make these points:
1. Biologically 'Race' does not exist, so the Ancient Egyptians could not have been part of the 'Black Race', just as other Africans were not part of the 'Black Race' biologically speaking.
2. The Early Ancient Egyptians were mainly indigenous northeast 'Black' Africans(a mix of Afrasans like Oromos and Nilosaharans like Maasai) who migrated mainly from a desiccating Eastern Sahara during the 6th-5th millennium BC. There likely might also have been small groups from the Near East, mostly through trade who were absorbed by these indigenous Egyptians(who were the vast majority)from the start. Over time Egypt absorbed many peoples(both other Africans and non-Africans) through small scale migrations, but also more dramatically during the Late Period when mass migrations of Mediterraneans(Greeks, Carians, Romans etc) and Near Easterners(Jews, Palestinians, Persians etc) settled mostly in the then relatively sparsely inhabited Delta. Other migrations from Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, Syrians etc would later follow. This is why most of the people living in the Nile Delta today look 'white'(they have been thoroughly mixed by these non-Africans).
PS: when I say that the Early Egyptians were 'Blacks', am not talking about a race, but that they are just a mix of indigenous dark-skinned Northeast Africans; and in my books, any indigenous dark-skinned African 'Black', but only in a social sense 1.e IDENTITY.
3. No doubt, the ancient Egyptian culture is completely African, in fact 'Black' African-since it clearly originated from the 'Black' Eastern Saharan groups, part of whom migrated(Tasians/Badarians, Naqadans) to Egyptian Nile, where they finally synthesized and defined the culture(Naqada) in Upper(southern)Egypt.
4. The closest people biologically and culturally to the Ancient Egyptians in EVERY study are the 'Nubians', in fact they had a common origin(through a rather complex process). They are of course not identical- no two people over a very long time are. Similarly the Ancient Egyptians were also biologically closer to some other Africans, like East Africans, before Europeans and Near Easterners.
5. There was and in some way still are, racist reasons for distorting and 'hiding' these fact by Eurocentists. These finds are now coming out and are been advocated by an increasingly number of scholars.
6. Like PhysicQED, am very skeptical and urge extreme caution in theories that intend to see some West Africans as migrants from the Nile Valley. In fact, the arguments used by proponents are not very convincing and are quite simplistic. True there are some 'fundamental' similarities between Ancient Egyptians/Nubians and West Aficans(in fact many other Africans) but this can more parsimoniously be explained by ancient interactions(direct or indirect) in the Green Sahara where most Africans were living during the period 10,000-4000BC. Both the Egyptians and Nubians as well as West, south and East Africans ancestors were inhabiting this huge region then. There might have been some migrations, but it cannot explain both the similarities and distinctiveness of West Africans from the Nile Valley dwellers.
7. I would like to caution PhysicsQED not fall into the hands of Eurocentists whose game in a losing 'battle' is to demonize Afrocentrists, in the face of very sound but counter arguments by people they call Afrocentists, especially on this issue. However, I agree with PhysicsQED when he urges us to be more critical and equally reject some of the few 'extreme' Afrocentrists who make some ridiculous claims- Cleopatra was 'black', the Greeks were 'Blacks' or they were civilized by 'Black' Egyptians from who they stole stole their philosophies from, Ancient 'Black' Egypt was the origin of all subsequent civilizations in the world ,in fact 'Blacks' originated civilization in Europe, China, Americas(with their 'Olmecs were Blacks' theory)etc etc. Let us resist the urge to use same unsound methods that Eurocentists used to belittle us as Africans-lets strive always to be critical and sound in the quest to understand and OWN our history that have been consistently distorted by Eurocentists. We can start that by not been too obsessive about only Ancient Egypt or Nubia but seek to understand others like Ancient Middle Niger Urban Civilizations, Benin, Kanem-Borno, Ancient Ghana, Swahili Civilization, Punt, Buganda, Kongo, Ife, Great Zimbabwe, Songhai, Mali, Askum, Dahomey, Ashanti and the many plenty villages and nomadic groups in Africa. They are all part of our history.

Where re the opportunities for(java) programmers in nigeria, plz i want info esp from programmers

It is great dat i am in dis forum, amongst my professional colleagues. I would be askin questions later cos am really in need of information dat would enable me become the best i can be in chemical engineering. Once again great been here