₦airaland Forum

gregyboy:
The ife-artworks has has always been a controversial topic for most anthropologist and authors on the originality of the artworks, but most times the controversy are always short-lived, anthropologist believe the ife artworks were not originally of ife orgin, they believe the yoruba people had migrated to the location ife were they found the artworks and began worshipping them and even began practicing the facial scarification on the artworks, some authors believed believed the ife people had found it somewhere the original people left it and they took it to ife and from ife it got to other yorubas areas
This doubt had risen from the lack of adornment of the artworks by the ife people likewise the lack of information of the people who had made the artworks in ife, the regalia had been also different from the regalia of the yoruba people when they first originally came in contact with the yoruba people,
Unlike the benin artwork which was adorned by the oba and benin people and it showed by historical details of thier past that made more sense that thse artworks were originally the artworks of benin peole

This are just reconsideration of ife artworks, the quest of tracing the ife artworks has been impossible believing the original people had gone extinct


Cc
Metaphysical
TAO11
gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

Only a dumb and confused person as you could have made this post which is such as asking:

"Which auto company make Toyota products, is it Toyota or another non-existent and unidentified company??"

Take Cover People. Benin Kingdom Liar on the Loose:

No where does any video he attached say anything even remotely close to his lie that Benin Kingdom is the only recognized ancient civilization. I challenge you to mention the timestamps in the respective videos.

On the contrary, what such videos always depict is the exhibition of specific artworks, just as it is done of other superior artworks like the Ife artworks, the Egyptian artworks, etc. Videos of such exhibitions abound on the internet.

He doesn't copy and paste Journal references. He only copies and pastes YouTube links. A truly interesting difference. Hmmm!

Nonsense and Oba Ovoranmwen!


A gentle reminder of your bungle below, though:
https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590

Again having exhausted his lie bank, he resorts to committing the logical fallacy know in argumentation as argumentum ad nauseum among other logical fallacies.

In other words, he has resolved the following: "I would keep repeating the same statement (of course without any evidence) and people will eventually get tired and believe me."

Providing evidence in response to zero evidence from Benin Kingdom was interpreted as insulting him Isn't God wonderful?? ??

Anyways, we're still awaiting his response to address his bungle pointed out here:

My experts?? ?? ?? ?? No little boy!

They are THE experts not MY experts, lad. omg!

And they say Ife artworks are the most sophisticated and most valued.

Yes, the imperial west is bent on perpetuating the punishment on Benin kingdom since 1897, regardless of the amount of begging from your elders.

Regardless of the volume of tears your elders shed for their return, and regardless of how much you mock their tears on Nairaland by rejoicing over the punitive seizure of those mere-quantity-2nd/3rd-class-artworks which they beg and cry daily for.

Experts have spoken loudly and clearly again and again on the superior quality of the Ife artworks. Consider the following expert testimonies:

(1) Talking about the Ife artworks, Frank Willett writes:

"Here unquestionably were art works of first importance ... They were so very different from any works of negro art, and so very sophisticated in a European manner that they stood apart from the rest of African sculpture."
Reference:
Frank Willett, "Bronze and Terra-Cotta Sculptures from Ita Yemo, Ife", The South African Archaeological Bulletin, Vol. 14, No. 56 (Dec., 1959), p.135.

(2) In another publication, Frank Willett writes:

"The heads were unlike any known African art, and being in a style of quasi-mensurational naturalism, had an immediate appeal to those trained in the canons of European taste. These heads could be judged without condescension as works of art in their own right; they would stand comparison with anything which Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe had to offer."
Reference:
Frank Willett, "Ife and Its Archaeology", The Journal of African History, Vol. 1. No. 2 (1960), p.239.

(3) The first European to see the Ife artworks in 1910, Leo Frobenius remarked that they were:

"eloquent of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy of form directly reminiscent of ancient Greece."
Reference:
Leo Frobenius, quoted in Ekpo Eyo: Two Thousand Years, p.100.

(4) The American anthropologist, William Bascom reports as follows for the Illustrated London News:
"How on a comparatively obscure corner of this vast and backward continent could an art and a technique have flowered that take their stand beside the best ever evolved by the elaborate civilizations of Europe and Asia?"
Reference:
William Bascom, The Illustrated London News, 1939.

Guess what! All these expert testimonies were made many years (sometimes many, many years) after the world had already seen all that Benin Kingdom had to offer in terms of art.

Fight with the experts who made all the submissions I cited, such as is seen in the first attachment below:

I guess experts are only accurate when their submissions coincide with Benin Kingdom's delusions (such as is seen in some of the YouTube videos)

He is obviously still dazed. You will slowly get over it.

Lastly, thank you very much for that picture of the then Ooni of Ife, Oba Okunade Sijuwade. It corroborates what all the evidence says, thereby putting Benin Kingdom in its lower place. I have attached it. Thank you, thank you!

What We're Still Awaiting:
(1) Evidence that settlements in Benin date earlier than Ife.
It's almost a year that I've been waiting for this from Benin Nairalanders.

(2)Evidence of iron-smelting on Benin soil dating to earlier than in Yorubaland.
It's been only a few hours since I've been waiting for this. So I kind of understand.

(3) Replies addressing his bungle in the following links:
https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590

He is still battling his loss.

He can't imagine what hit him. He's dazed.

Don't forget guys, he has never in his life produced anything called evidence.

I think producing evidence to substantiate a claim is a taboo in Benin kingdom.

Anyways, for a summary of recent scholarship on metal technology in Nigeria and Yorubaland, refer to the following:

(1) Bassey W. Andah: "Iron Age Beginnings in West Africa: Reflections and Suggestions," West African Journal of Archaeology, 9, 1979, 135-150.

(2)David Aremu: "Change and Continuity in Mettalurgical Traditions: Origins, Technology and Social Implications," in Ogundiran: Precolonial Nigeria, 133-155.

Those two should be sufficient. We are, however, still waiting for you to produce anything even remotely close to 160AD from Benin Kingdom.

We are also waiting on your insults on D. M. Bondarenko for stating clearly that your first three Ogisos are Ife-Yoruba emissaries.

In summary, everything Benin royal house has, as a royal heritage, always turns out to be from Ife --- including beads which evidence shows to be a manufactured product in Ife since at least the 1100s.

The earliest known use of beads in Benin kingdom, on the other hand, dates to Ewuare I's reign in the late1400s.

Why is all the evidence pointing to Ife?? I am angry right now 'sef' /s


A gentle reminder of your bungle below, though:
https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590

Eeeeeeyaaaaah!

He has unfortunately used up his lie bank, and he's now stuck on what lie to write in the face of the following evidence:

(a) Widespread Yoruba accounts and surviving use of the Ife royal metal scepter in Yorubaland (including in Benin Kingdom)

(b) Scholarly submission that his first three Ogisos (who they recently ironically consider to be mythical beings) are actually emissaries from Ife.

(c) Archaeological evidence showing that iron smelting is way way way earlier in Yorubaland than in Benin kingdom.

Very satisfying, isn't it?

Having said that, a gentle reminder below:
https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590

Are we going to both pretend that you've mistakenly forgotten about your public bungle?? See link for reminder:

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/44#88731083

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/45#88733590


Moving on to my job of educating the global public:
Ancient Ife artworks are found in Museums all over the world in Britain, in the U.S. et al. not because they were looted as punishment against the wish of their original owners.

Your elders cry and grief daily while begging that the punishment is enough, and that their artworks be returned. Yet a lost Benin is here on Nairaland priding himself on the very thing that brings daily tears to his parents.

And regarding the royal metal scepter, well it's a pity that you're ignorant, but my duty is to educate you as always.

The royal insignia of a metal scepter called Ada, Ida or Agada (depending on the dialect of the part of Yorubaland or beyond) emanates from Ife.

And such picture is not private, even though it may be private for you and the Bini Facebook account holder.

We have such pictures of not only Oba Okunade Sijuwade, but also of his predecessor, Oba Adesoji Aderemi, and of their successor, the reigning Ooni --- Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Moreover, this metal royal insignia is found all over Yorubaland, from Ife itself, to NorthWest Yorubalands such Oyo where it is called Ida; to Southern Yorubalands where it is called Agada.

In Oyo for instance where it is called Ida Oranmiyan, it has to be taken back to Ife for reconsecration whenever a new Alaafin is to be crowned.
Reference:
R.C.C. Law, The Heritage of Oduduwa, (1973), pp.210-211.

Examining The Stronger Evidence:
The practice of casting metals (iron smelting particularly) is not known by experts to be earlier in Benin kingdom than in Yorubaland.

Archaeological evidence of metal working sites within Yorubaland date to at least 160AD. Nothing comes even remotely close to this from Benin kingdom.

Moeover, now that you are willing to disgree with your fellow Bini Nairalanders that Ogisos are real and not mythical:

Let's see, then, what scholars have to say regarding the second Ogiso of Igodomigodo land --- Ogiso Ere --- whom you've attributed (without any evidence) the origin of the royal Benin Ada to: See attachment.

In sum, the attached scholarly submission as well as the archaeological evidence comes to corroborate the widespread Yoruba account that royal scepters (including those of Benin kingdom) emanated from Ile-Ife.

Osagyefo98:
No time debating rubbish. We don't spare such time.@bolded.

Yorubas sees Edo as part of them always , it is only edos that always try to show distinct between both leading to loads of argument and unending articles...which. can only end in both accepting they.are same.

Well, what is rubbish is actually relative. Scholars for example (i.e. really brainy folks) do not consider such debate to be rubbish. Their tons upon tons of publication on the topic bears testament to that.

Moving on ... just to clarify, the Yorubas (who really know) do not see the Edos per se as part them.

It's simply our Ife dynasty over the Edos that we acknowledge, and the royal family have never denied thier Ife roots.

But for the common non-royal Edo person who is being ruled over, I perfectly understand their frustration and cognitive dissonance.

Cheers!

gregyboy:
Dump boy....

I never mentioned he said or wrote out the word possibilism you slowpoke....

I used possibilism or probabilsm to describe what he said

And nupe happen to have more probabilsm, ife just came up because he really couldnt help it because he is an ife historians

Dvmb dvmb

He completely debunked out your Nupe slavemaster outrightly.

And he establishes Ife.

Where does he express "pRoBaBiLiSm", you dummy? Quote it out.

And no, he is not from Ife. Academics and scholars don't reason from the anvs like you do.

Osagyefo98:
Ooni over south....Lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Impossibly impossible..

Seems una want wake everybody up...abi?

But I think the argument is simply Ooni influence over west and Edo and not south which is what Tao11 are trying to prove.

More sincerely many Yorubas always join Edo to their foods so it is a not new because it has been like that for years.

All evidence so far in this thread have demonstrated again and again that "the most powerful monarch" in the Nigeria region (i.e. not only south, and not only Nigeria) since very ancient times is the Ooni of Ife --- no one else comes even close.

Whether you or anyone else like that historical fact or not is an entirely separate question.

Moreover, what I'm "trying to prove" is actually more of a disproof of annoying childish untruths like "many Yorubas always join Edo to their foods".

gregyboy:
[s]You have reading problems,

From the writeup i can see he is an ife historian, he was trying to bring the possiblism of ife into the pictures, but still emphasize more on nupe as
The greater possiblism

Yorubas you guys are too desperate its so annoying[/s]

Shut up, you dyslexiac! A dyslexiac who lies, what a horrible combination.

That's the summary page of the article where he debunked your new found slave master --- "Nupe" --- while establishing that "Yufi" is "Ife".

Point out where it says "pOsSiBiLiSm", block head. May be you sbould begin to learn to read instead of siting all day asking for pictures.

I know you're about to ask for Ibn Battuta's picture and Sutton's picture to see iF yUfI iS tRuLy IfE.

And Sutton is not an Ife man!

googi:
The early written records that mentionss Ife was during the early fourteenth century High Florescence Era when the well-known adventurer, historian and travelor[b] Ibn Battûta(1325–1354) them in his travelogue. Here we read (1958:409–10) that southwest of the Mâlli (Mali) kingdom lies a country called Yoûfi [Ife?] that is one of the “most considerable countries of the Soudan [governed by a] …souverain [who] is one of the[b] greatest kings.”[/b] Battûta’s description[/b] of Yoûfi as a country that “No white man can enter … because the negros will kill him before he arrives” appears to reference the ritual primacy long associated with Ife, in keeping with its important manufacturing and mercantile interests, among these advanced technologies of glass bead manufacturing, iron smelting and forging, and textile-production. Blue-green segi beads from Ife have been found as far west as Mali, Mauritania, and modern Ghana, suggesting that Battuta may well have learned of this center in the course of his travels in
https://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane..com/2014/09/ife-people-ancient-artistic-highly_14.html?m=1

Thank you for this comment.

The fraudulent gregyboy has tried this "Nupe" misidentification of "Yufi" with me on another thread where I made him regret it by give him thorough flogging which made him run away quiet as usual.

See the link to the reply here:

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/36#88487170


Thornton(1988) himself which he relies on for his bigoted identification of "Yufi" as "Nupe" only alludes to it cursorily. It wasn't like that was specifically what the paper was out to identify and address.

Moreover, "Thornton specializes in West-Central African history (i.e. the Kongo-Angola polities) and their diasporas, and Nigerian history is a bit of a side-step from his main areas of focus." This is where is comparative strenght and interest lies --- that is, Central African military history.

I have given him a classic work whose primary focus is on the identification of Ibn Battuta's "Yufi". He ran away quietly after finding out the truth, only to escape down here to continue peddling what he escaped from elsewhere.

The work I cited clearly alludes to the popular misidentification of Ibn Battuta's "Yufi" as "Nupe" before then proceeding to clarify that "Yufi" (in West Africa) as documented by Ibn Battuta in the 1300s, is no other place than "Ufe" aka "Ife".

gregyboy is only mad that his Ubinu, or Ubini, or Ibini didn't get noticed historically until a century later --- which is even by coincidence.

See attachment:

Reference:
J. E. G. Sutton: "Ibn Battuta's Yufi - Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron-Age Africa", Transafrican Journal of History, Vol. 10, No. 1/2.

And he did prove me right as predicted.

TerraCotta:
A perfect example of why I save my responses for worthwhile people and topics. I sincerely don’t even know what you mean by this, but if these references to Suzanne Preston Blier’s work have interested you, please delve into her bibliography here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

You will see that her upcoming book (titled “1325: How Medieval Africa Made the World Modern”) mentioned, which I expect will cover her research on Ife arts and this export economy I referenced in greater detail.

Her 2015 book that I have mentioned here (and in years past) is available from Cambridge University Press here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/art-and-risk-in-ancient-yoruba/1D8136F1682FC0244F690903B437653D#fndtn-information (not sure how easily available it is in Nigeria itself, unfortunately)

Suzanne Blier lecture in French (coincidentally on her research on Vodun in Benin Republic, in case that somehow clarifies your question above):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9VYFlJbRo

Suzanne Blier lecture on African trade routes and putative links between the roots of the Prester John concept, historical Coptic Christian centers in medieval West Africa and the global trading networks I alluded to in my other posts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HTZsaksh84

Please dont reply him. I know what I'm talking about.

He's not stable, I promise you. /s

He'll prove me right shortly.


Thanks so much for all the information tho.

gregyboy:
[s]Biafra call thier lands the rising sun mean ogene is at biafra[/s]

But the ancient Binis didn't regard "Biafra" by such epithet. And this makes all the relevant difference.

However, the Yorubas (and the ancient Binis --- as Oba Eweka II's daily practice shows) regard Ife by that epithet.


I see that you began to consider the evidence closely.

Good job on that.

ghostwon:
[s]I have already established that you are a fool, I have told you several times to never quote me again.
I will not have any discussion with a mad foolish idiot like you. Thank you.[/s]

Nobody ever likes those who disgrace them by exposing their lies in public.

So, I understand your tantrum and rage.

ghostwon:
Ogane is a mythical place. Not a real place. The first map showing ife was done in the 19th century. Enough said, stop telling people to get acquainted with rubbish. Who are you trying to fool here ?

What is this one writing?? ?? ??

Will you keep kwayet when stable people are talking?? ??

Also it is funny you actually have noticed that Suzan Blier is fluent in French and did some work about Benin Republic but you didn't notice that her mention of Benin might not have meant Benin Kingdom but rather the region which is now being referred to as Benin Republic.

Thks is the height of face-saving poor damage conteol stunt.


TerraCotta, please don't reply this. Abeeeg! Don't join him in the gutter.

gregyboy, come carry your 2nd for here oo.

samuk:
João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".


The quote above is what someone like myself in search of the truth have problems with.

This conversation was said to have happened around 1480 between a Benin informant and a European. It was documented.

Centuries later, people tried to link Ife to the said Ogane and realised that there are problems, and in the effort to address this problems, those that were not there or witnesses to the conversation are now speculating that the European must have got it wrong and reported the opposite of what he was told.

No matter how we try to shift the goalposts to fit Ife into Ogane, the fact remains that the recorded historical evidence does not support this hypothesis.

I personally don't care where the Ogane was located or if it ever existed, I am only interested in the truth.

You don't just wake up and start changing the goalposts by altering documented historical accounts to fit a narrative. The changes you guys are making to the original documents amounts to mutilation of the evidence.

1. You start by saying the 20 moon journey is mystical journey, not physical because it doesn't support your argument.

2. You said the 250 league or 900 miles reported is the opinion of the European and should be discarded because it doesn't support your argument.

3. You said the eastern location reported by the European should be discarded, disregarded and changed to west because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not just disregard the entire report as a work of fiction. Ogane may not have existed.

You have NOT addressed a single thing in my comment.

You have only reacted emotionally and for obvious reasons. Lol.

At no point did I tell you that the 20 moons journey is a "mystical" or unreal journey. No it is real, in case what you meant by "mystical" is unreal.

[You are about to start again. And you know what I'm talking about].

(1) I made it clear that he did indeed receive the 20 moon journey information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

And this fits perfectly into the calculation of the traditional walk duration I showed.

(2) I also made it clear that he indeed did not receive the 250 leagues information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

I quoted the account to show this. He wrote clearly enough to show that the 250 leagues is how own personal interpretation of the 20 moons journey distance.

"... at twenty moons' journey --- which, ... would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues --- ..."

I also added that the ancient Binis have no such unit (as leagues) of measuring distance.

In this part of the world, we simply use natural phenomenon such as days, moons, etc in measuring distance.

And that was precisely what the Bini did in giving him the distance information --- 20 moons journey.

And I did demostrate that Ife is believed in ancient times (and till date) to be the place from where the sun rises.

And I cited David Hinderer's, "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this.

I also alluded to Oba Eweka II's repeated connection of the rising sun to Ife even in as recent as the 1920s, to show that this local epithet of Ife was known in Benin too.


Nay, you ignored all the evidence and instead misrepresented me and replied completely to a strawman emotionally. Fair enough!

Lol.

samuk:
I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

And regarding the "east" dilema, I have already discussed that where I wrote the following:

Regarding dilema (2) which says that the Kingdom of the Ogane is to the "east" of Benin kingdom.

This is about the most puzzling for historians. But it turns out in the end to be the most obvious and the simplest of all.

Ile-Ife is famous and well known in ancient times (and in present times as well) by the epithet --- "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá".

This is the simple and straightforward solution to the "east" dilema in the Portuguese account.

This is especially considering the fact that every other detail in the account regarding the Ogane checks out perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife.

Also, every attempt to find this Ogane in the actual geographical east have proven futile and absurd.

Now what then does this epithet of Ife actually translate to, and how does it resolve the "east" dilema??

In its baisic literal sense, this epithet of Ife namely: "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá" simply describes Ife as: "The place from where daylight shines forth."

Put differently, it translates as: The place from where the sun rises.

Every Yoruba kingdom whether to the eastern side or to the western side of Ife knows Ife by this epithet.

And to be sure that this was not merely made up in recent times --- by historians --- in the course of resolving the "east" dilema, the following piece of historcal informatiom sheds some light:

The first Christian missionary to visit Ife in the 1850s, David Hinderer alludes to this epithet of Ife in his account. He wrote:

"Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatry; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from this town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men spring from thks town."

Reference:
David Hinderer, "Diaries," Ibadan, Christian Missionary Society (CMS), quoted in I. A. Akinjogbin, ed., The Cradle of a Race: Ile-Ife from the Beginning to 1980, PortHarcourt, Sunray Publications, 1992, xi.

Although this epithet of Ife is not necessarily scientifically and geographically accurate from all geographical sides of Ife, the local people have a strong and firm belief in it nevertheless.

In fact, I. A. Akinjogbin and others have opined that this unanimous strong belief in an epithet of Ife which is obviously scientifically inaccurate, must have --- in the earliest times --- originally had a functional meaning which is simply to the effect that Ife is the place from where culture and civilization spread to other lands.

The fact that this literal epithet of Ife (as the place from where the sun rises) is also known in ancient Benin kingdom, is quite evident in the earlier cited documentation by Ward-Price.

Oba Eweka II notes that he must wait for the first rays of the sun to shine forth before he proceeds to begin his sacred devotion which he obviously connects back to the "Oghene of Ife."

His consistent daily connection of the first rays of the sun with Ife/Yorubaland (despite the geography being opposite) is obviously not unintentional.

It clearly relates to the ancient epithet of Ife as the place from where sunlight shines forth. See the attachment again for a reminder.

In light of the foregoing, it becomes clear where the "east" in d'Aveiros account sprang from in relation to the kingdom of the Oghene or Ogane.

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".

To be fair to him, there is almost no way he could have escaped the misunderstanding.


The attachment also shows how the brass cross were connected back to Ife by Oba Eweka II.

I have discussed all these in details earlier on this same thread.

Cheers!

samuk:
I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

I was about to respond to your 250 leagues contention before I saw that it has already been addressed by SilverSniper in his reply to you and by TerraCotta in his reply to me.

It is definitely d'Aveiros personal opinion of what the distance should be based on his received information of the time it takes --- i.e. "some twenty moons"

I know this because of the following reasons:

(1) He didn't comit to any actual travel to the said Ogane's kingdom to have noted the distance.

(2) The Binis obviously didn't give him the 250 leagues information as his own implied admission in the text clearly shows it to be his personal guess from the information of 20 moons he was given. He writes:

"which ..., would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues ..."

Moreover, there is no such basis of distance measurement as "league" among the ancient Binis, unlike a univeral basis of time measurement as "moon" with which he was supplied the time information.

In sum, what stands tall in the final analysis as the information he got from the locals, regarding how far apart the two kingdoms are, is the "some twenty moons" information.

And as has been demonstrated, the traditional time duration (based on Okojie's data) between Benin and Ife is more than 19 moons.

This fits nicely and perfectly with d'Aveiros' "some twenty moons" which he got from the Binis.

Cheers!

MumuCountry:
No, I don’t catch your “joke.”

And why is it soo hard to provide one tangible evidence to link the Ga people with Yoruba?

That's the point of the joke (at least for the moment) because it's on you.

Moreover, my point about the Ga people and the Yoruba is that you Edos sbould leave them alone and let them speak for themselves.

They've identified as originally Yoruba from Ife again and again. And that's all that matters.

Let them be!

MumuCountry:
The Ga Mantse said: “History has it......” Which history? By the way, I speak the Ga language and I am very familiar with the history of the Ga people. Yes, people say stuff, but where is the hard evidence? Where is the historical evidence? Can you name one, apart from what the Ga Mantse said? .

Which history is he talking of? See JAMB question.

No, he is talking of the history of Russia. /s


Your unverifiable claim of "I speak Ga language" is at best inconsequential, and at worst delusional.

No sane person would ignore the testimony of a man (the King of a people) about himself and his people; and then align with what unknown-and-unrelated -you have to say about those same people.

Do you also catch the joke??

samuk:
I agree there would have been a more organised and efficient system in place to avoid the Lagos messages being delay too much before reaching Benin.

But what I can't reconcile is equating a 20 moon journey to 250 league or about 900 miles.

It has also been suggested that the Ogane was a mythical kingdom that didn't exist.

The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e. about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17 months.

In fact, strictly speaking, 17 months is the equivalence of 19 moons. I am happy to demonstrate this Math as well.


This (i.e. more than 19 moons) therefore comes to be reasonably equal to the "some 20 moons" of the Portuguese document, in contrast to an irrational and unrealistic result of 2 days from Google maps.

Cheers!

MumuCountry:
There was nothing conclusive in that statement. “History has it.........” First, there is absolutely nothing that links Ga people in Accra with Yoruba. Their language is entirely different, foods are different, even their names are nowhere close to Yoruba names. Ga music is even different from Yoruba music, very different. Can you name one thing that The Ga people in Ghana have in common with Yoruba people?

I think it is important that you allow them be the Yoruba they claim to be in peace.

Read from the Ga Mantse once again below:

Hi davidnazee:

See attachments as promised. For some reasons, I couldn't type them in here without getting blocked.

Cheers!

MumuCountry:
There is a large Yoruba community, from Nigeria, living in Ghana. They trace their existence in Ghana to more than 100 years, when they first arrived in Ghana. These are Nigerians, not Ghanaians. These were the ones the Ooni may have given titles to.

Except that the migration in question here is not some modern-100years-ago migration.

Our occupation of those parts goes back to the ancient kingdom-founding-migration of the Ife princes.

Hear from the supreme King of the Ga people, the Ga Mantse himself in the attachment below:

nsiba:
.

Well spoken bro, but what is this Yoruba obsession with Benin?
Even the present Oba of Lagos knows very well Eko is Benin owned

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