₦airaland Forum

@Analytical,

Thanks for your eloquent input. I do hope 4Him and others will now understand what I have been trying to tell them all along.

@4Him,

The place of repentance in salvation was VERY important to Christ. When He delivered the woman caught in adultery he told her "go and sin no more" . . . was he talking about the sin of unbelief there? Did he assume she was a believer?
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. - Notice the plurality of the term "sins" here. What sins was he shedding His precious blood for? That of unbelief only?
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. - what sins?
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

No doubt Christ died for the sins of the world, but the implication is different from what you are taking it to mean.  Let me ask you a question which I hope will help you bring this whole discussion into perspective. Must unbelievers confess ALL their sins to be saved? What happens if they confess some and not all? (okay it was more than one question).

@4Him,

Why then did the bible tell us to flee all appearance of evil?

You tell us. But please do not say it is so that when we flee evil we are saved. If that is the case, Christ didn't need to die. All I have to do is stay away from evil and I'll be fine. Saul was blameless regarding the law but was as mush a son of hell as any unbeliever until he believed in Christ. What Gospel do you preach out there?

Why then did Christ go to the cross bearing our transgressions if it would not get us saved anyway?

He paid the price for sins. He met the requirements of the law. If He did, what business do you have trying to meet the requirements of the law?

Frankly the more you post the more i wonder what passes for christianity these days.

I am beginning to get really distressed by this another Gospel you are preaching. I have asked you how much law did you obey to obtain your salvation but you balked. And yet you tell us that unbels must stop sinning as a part of their contribution towards salvation. You are preaching another Gospel my brother. You, like Isreal have stumbled Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;.

I beg you by the mercies of God, do not ask unbelievers to cease from sins before God can accept them. He already did. It is just up to them to change their mind towards God and accept what He has done in His Son.

Here is how to lead someone to salvation in Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. If you add anything to this, you are in manifest error.

Paul did not tell his jailor to confess all his sins, not to go home and start living right after which he shall qualify for salvation. Here is how it all went: Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. I am realy getting scared for you because when you depend on works for your salvation, you fall from grace.

What do you really believe, is salvation by grace or by works? These two are mutually exclusive. Here is Romans 11:6 in some translations for your better understanding.

And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is – free and undeserved.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

@4Him,

NO ONE has said anything remotely close to this AT ALL. Salvation is a gift, mercy is a gift, grace is a gift, repentance is also a gift . . . we don't work for it, even our righteousness (works) is like filthy rags before the Lord.

If you accept that salvation is a gift, what then is the purpose of telling unbels they must not do this, they must not do that? Do you now see my point? Telling them to refrain from sin is not going to get them saved.

Salvation is a gift but you also have a part to play. Understanding that you are a sinner is the first step to salvation . . . without it you will never understand the enormity of God's precious gift of His life on the cross.

Your part as Jesus said in John 10, is to believe on Him You won't accept Jesus as Lord if you do not have the understanding that you are a sinner. Every unbel out there know that they are sinners. What saves is accepting that Jesus is the way out, and not attemptint to live righteously.

@nwando,

like denying that salvation is by Christ alone.

I assume you are refering to JO here. In all honesty, I do not think this is what he said.

However, don't you think your denying that salvation is the complete work of Christ alone is also heresy? Saying an unbeliever has to live righteously to be accepted by Christ is the greatest assault on the efficacy of the blood of Christ than anything else I've ever come to hear.

@Analytical,

Thanks for your contribution. I thot we've all agreed that the guy could have done better with the interview. the difference is just that while 4Him deems it fit to call JO a false teacher, I sincerely do not think so. He realised from reading the transcript that he really seemed to have given a false message from what he intended, and he duly apologised for that. The rest is left between him and his Master.

However, I wish you'd contribute to the raging issue at hand. What is the role of works with respect to salvation (as in getting born again)? I'd really love to have your input on that, as I think it is very crucial.

4Him,

Let me address some of the scriptures you cited within the context you used them.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

But you are speaking evil of the man now. Virtually everyone, including unbelievers speak so well of billy graham. Does that make him a false prophet?

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

This scripture is true. For the unbeliever, until he confesses the sin of unbelief in Christ, and believes in Him, hell is his portion. For the believer, failure to confess and forsake your sins will deprive you of fellowship with your Father as well as facing the consequences of the sin.

Is 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

What way should the unbel forsake other than unbelief in Christ. Tell me, will any unbel who lives righteously attain salvation based on the works? This is exactly what you are implying.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These are covered in John 10 I quoted before. When an unbeliever repents of the sin of unbelief in Christ, there is remission of sins, which is why Jesus mentioned that the Holy Spirit will show them what it takes to be righteous. Why is it so hard to see this: John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Definition of Heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth

And you don't feel like the preaching of salvation through works as many have done is heresy?

@imhoteph,

How do you reconcile the above with James 2: 14 - 26

Both scriptures are not contradictory. You see, there is a "work" that accompanies faith. The work is an outside expression of an inward conviction. That is why James gave some examples. You can't say you believe in meeting people's needs without giving to them.

Now with respect to salvation, the works that follows an inward conviction of faith in Christ is to confess Him as Lord. Hear what Jesus said John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Faith in Christ must be follwoed by confession. When this is done, the cycle is complete.  2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The works that accompany our salvation is not to secure our salvation, but is a testimony to the change that has occured on the inside. That is why James said an I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. His works proves his faith, it does not secure it.

I hope I've made myself clear.

@stillwater,

@ Tayo D I don't get you.

Please let me know what part you do not get so I can explain it better.

I was watching Oprah the other day and a woman said she was in need of a job and she prayed to God and He gave her a job at a stripper joint.

I doubt if God will have someone work as a stripper because it's a job that appeals to the evil desires of the flesh. I qualified that with the word "evil" because not all desires of the flesh are evil. However, could God have her work in some other capacity there? Why not? God must have some assignment for her if that is the case. She'll get close to the sinners there and witness. In my opinion, a Christian in the strip club is no different from a Christian in the world. We are surrounded by darkness whichever way you look at it.

We are indeed saved by grace, does that mean we shouldn't have an understanding of what's right and what's not?

I never said that. The reason why I am yet to deal with this issue is because it's obvious that a lot of people equate our walk with God to our salvation. They are two different and mutually exclusive things. We are rewarded for our work and obedience, but they do not save us.

Now let me explain something further. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This scripture applies exclusively to Christians and not to unbelievers. An unbeliever has no basis for forgiveness even if he confesses all the sins he has ever commited. The only sin God holds him to, that is sending him to hell and makes him a child of the devil is the sin of not believing in Jesus. When he believes in Jesus, he is saved. And when he falls short in his walk with Christ, he can plead 1 John 1:9 for forgiveness and receive it. He doesn't have to confess Jesus as Lord when he sins because he is already saved, he is just out of fellowship.

This is why I cringe when I hear believers asking unbelievers to confess their sins. On what basis are they requesting such? What correlation has that got with their salvation? When unbelievers get the notion that they are accepted by God when they quit such sins, in effect get a mesage of salvation based on works. That is heresy.

@4Him,

Tayo-D, a simple question: do you believe once saved forever saved?

I believe only one thing saves. Faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. If salvation wasn't obtained through works, it could never be sustained by it. Like Paul said in Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? And in Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; so you see, the only way to guarantee your salvation is through the assurance of faith, and not the deadness of works.

Now, we need to understand that salvation and righteousness are gifts. They are not earned or merited. No one will get to heaven who works for his/her salvation, else the shedding of Christ's blood was a waste.

The only way you can "lose" your salvation is if you reject the sacrifice of Christ, and that is what you guys are doing unknowingly by thinking His sacrifice was not enough and you need to prop it up with some works so as to make it sure. This is why Paul made the following statement in Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you seek justification through works, you do exactly what Heb 10:29 that I quoted earlier declares - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?. You responded before by referencing the earlier verse which talks about sinning willfully. Don't you know that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?. The sin is to lose faith in what the blood of Christ stands for and that is what is eloquently expressed here in Hebrews 10.

@4Him,

Just a brief response to your inputs above. Let's make some distinctions.

1. Salvation, as in being brought out of darkness into His marvelous light is a one time event that takes place when one believes in Christ. Nothing can be added or taken away from this. It is a gift you receive by grace. Nothing you can do can add to or take away that gift. You either accept it or reject it.

2. Maturity is a separate thing altogether from salvation. You guys are muddling the two together. It is only a baby child that grows into a son. A bastard, no matuter how mature he is, is still a bastard, and a child, no matter how unmatured he is, remains the son of His father. Nothing he does or not do will make him less a child, even though he may be out of favor with his father.

I understand full well your analogy which still is off totally. Your analogy can be likened to a Christian maturing or passing a trial, but it does not in any way apply to salvation. I would like to move on to the life of a believer after salvation, but since there is still a fundamental misunderstanding with what it takes to be saved, I can't get myself to move beyond this point.

Please hear me again, there is nothing you can do to add to, or secure your salvation. You either have it or you don't. Salvation is absolutely a thing of faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Can you see here that salvation is absolutely unrelated to works?

Please go back to that Hebrews 10 and tell me what the central theme of those passages are. It is absolutely on the blod with respect to what saves a man. Paul was essentially saying if you don't think the blood is sufficient for you, there is no more sacrifices that saves. If the blood is out of the question, you are lost. This is what everyone here who expects to be justified by works are saying.

@4Him,

what else do you do after passing common entrance?

I didn't know that people have to earn their salvation like they earn their A1s and C4s in an exam, as if Christ's work wasn't enough. You are yet to tell me how much work it takes to earn salvation. A little or a lot? What is the benchmark? I just can't believe what i am seeing here on nairaland. Do you know what happens when you seek to be justified by your works? Hear Paul: Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Please spend time tonight and try and study or read through the book of Galatians. Maybe we can study from there.

@jokepearl,

philippians 2:12. Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

If I understand you clearly based on the context with which you quoted this scripture, you are trying to say our salvation wasn't guaranteed in Christ; and that we are to do some work to make sure it doesn't slip away. If that is the case, then Hebrews 10:29 aptly describes your position: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? You have largely said the blood of Christ wasn't enough to pay for your salvation.

Please tell me, how much work have you done today to guarantee that you don't lose your salvation? How much sin have you avoided to guarantee that God will consider you righteous? How much more do you need to do to earn God's favour and salvation? Please let us know.

The scripture you quoted doesn't in anyway say you have to work to make your salvation sure. The guarantee of your salvation is Christ's blood, not your own righteousness. What the Bible says in Phillipians 2:12 is that you should allow an outworking of your inward salvation. The word "work" in that verse isn't in the original greek manuscripts. the translators put it there for a better understanding of the verse, but in this case, it threw it off. Here are some translations that'll help you understand what I am saying better.

NLT- Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.

Young's Literal Translation - So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

Basic English - So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts;

nwando,

which laws? so to live a righteous and holy life after salvation is now keeping the law?

Do you understand the things I have written at all? Where did I so much as insinuate the things you are accusing me of? My point is that there is nothing you can do, no acts of righteousness you can muster, that will help you obtain or secure your salvation. Salvation is the work of Christ from first to last. Your part is to accept the gift through faith and believe in Him.

are you one of the once saved always saved crowd?

What do you mean by that? I believe in John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I believe what makes you a sheep is to believe, and no one can take you out of God's hands when you are His sheep.

honey,after you've accepted Christ,it doesn't stop there.

What more do you do after accepting Christ to obtain salvation? Please share this "another" Gospel with us.

who is feeding you all this doctrine?
open yoiur Bible dear.

My Bible is always opened.

@topic,

Here we go again today! Let's enjoy the ride.

@Jesoul,

how can you look at these verses and still insist that God will not judge the unsaved for all their sins?

I think I now understand where you are misusnderstanding me. Let me try and articulate my points more clearly and I'd like you to point out where you differ, if you do.

1. What determines the fate of a person under this dispensation is whetheh they believe in Jesus or not. This is the unqualified basis of salvation. No works can be added or removed to change this reality.

2. Consequent to 1 above, no unbeliever will be going to hell because of the sins of fornication, stealing, cheating and the likes. This is because what condemns them is lack of faith in Christ. John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I hope that is clear enough.

@4Him, nwando,

For the sake of clarification. How many of these laws that you obey help you secure and guarantee your salvation? Because while you are on one hand saying you believe salvation is by grace, you are implying it is secured through works and accomplishment.

@4Him,

Salvation is not ONLY about believing in Christ . . . it includes repentance from sin, living a Holy life and being an example of the believers!

In other words, salvation is a process for you. So have you obtained oit or still wsorking towards it. How holy must you become before God kicks in Christ's sacrifice? Do you even realise what you are saying?

Abeg, I attended to you people all day at work, and I can't share my time with my family at home any longer with you. We'll continue later. I'm sighning out.

@nwando,

Again, you have left the gist of the matter and dabbled in irrlevancies. What is your take on salvation? I have clearly stated mine, please share yours.

@4Him,

This is not right. Why were the people of Soddom and Gomorrah condemned?
Why were the jews forced into exile in Babylon?
Why was God angry with the people of Nineveh?

How many of these live under the dispensation where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will only convict them of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ? Is it yur option A, B or C?

The key grouse in this debate has been the reluctance of men of Gawd in the WOFM to boldly declare the truth about salvation, to confront the sinful lifestyle of their flock and teach them what Christ taught - he that believeth not is CONDEMNED ALREADY.

Message of salvation is for Unbels. This is my focus on this topic, and not the Believers. Salvation is all about believing in Christ. It has nothing to do with a personal righteous lifestyle. Have we been addressing different issues here?

@nwando,

My dear it's no attack.

I used the word "attack" loosely. It's no big deal.

The doctrine you preach on this thread get K leg.

Where is the K in the leg. This is what I preach. Salvation is free. You cannot work for it. No amount of obeying the law can get you saved. Salvation is from first to last, believing in Jesus. This is what the early Church preached and practice. It is confirmed from first to last in Acts. I hope I don't have to walk us all through Acts to show this as I believe it is so clear.

Scripture explains scripture and all scripture is inspired.
You can't cherry pick , it's unChristian to do so.

I am not cherry picking scripture. I never do. However, I certainly understand the message of the scriptures especially with respect to salvation, and no matter how much you avoid making a stance, my stance is that I have not earned my salvation. I received the gift free of charge or conditions. It has nothing to do with my obedience or disobedience of the law. What about you?

There is a time and a season for every kind of message
soft pleading message o,        ,there's "hell fire waiting"
all get their place
and someone has to point it out to you.

Do you know who should benefit from the message of Hellfire? It is Believers. Our knowledge of it should get us out to persuade unbelievers to believe in Jesus Christ. Hear what Paul said about this:

2 Corinthians 5:11 - Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

The truth is until the Unbel believes in Christ, every other message of the Bible will be unprofitable for them, except the natural laws and principles which is in most cases is the basis of our social value system.

You may not like me or anyone to tell you that
I love you that's why I'm correcting you.

Thanks for your love. I appreciate it, and you know the "feeling" is mutual. Just because the church has been doing some thing for decades does not make it right.  I stand by my persuasion that telling unbelievers to do righteous acts is unprofitable towards their salvation. Chikena.

people have taken out time to show you scripture
but you have your excuses as in the Stephen case,on others you've called it OT,even the parables Christ gave,you called it OT. na you sabi

My reference to Christ and the OT is in reference to salvation. Salvation as we know it is a NT thingy, and Jesus only lived in the OT. As for Stephen, I learnt from him how not to preach the message of salvation. Peter did a better job, and we all know that even Peter is not always right in the head even though his heart is always right.

@stillwater,

Salvation without abiding to the law is pure disobedience. If you love me keep my commandments John14:15. They work hand in hand. We can't do without the law. The law serves as a mirror and a guiding rule to live by as a genuine christian.

I hope nwando and 4Him will correct you here as well. This is the danger of all this obey the law preachings has led us. Please read Galatians 5:4 I quoted earlier. As a matter of fact, you might do well to read the entire Book of Galatians. It teaches about Christians who think thy have to obey the law to maintain their righteousness. This is the same thing I am seeing here.

And by the way, the commandment He asked us to obey is not the law but love. John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

@4Him,

So going by your wholesale condemnation of Stephen . . . we can conclude that Christ also started accusing the people, the focus went from Christ to man, they became angry, he lost them at that point . . . they wanted to stone Him.

Okay, now you are going overboard. Me condemn Stephen? You need to use that word with some restraint please. So what caused the people to get angry after they've silently listened to Stephen's preaching for probably close to 30 minutes or more? Let's try and be honest here and just cut to the chase. They only stoned him because they felt he blasphemed, but they were angry with him 'cos of something else.  

Uncle Tayo . . . the word of God does 2 things . . . either condemns you of your sins unto righteousness or makes you hate the word the more. There is no sitting on the fence.

My dear, the word of God does not condemn you of sin. It convicts you. For the unbleivers, the only sin the Holy Spirit convicts them of is that of Jesus Christ. The only righteousness he encourages them to accept is that which is the gift from God, and not the self righteousness we are asking of them. If the world is convicted of some sin other than that of not believing in Jesus, believe me, that is not the Holy Spirit at work. It's probably just their conscience; or at worst a preacher's fiery demand of self roghteousness from them.

Matthew 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If Christ came to fulfil the law, what part of fulfilling it was left undone when He cried on the cross: "it is finished"? Seriously David, this is not funny any longer. I can't believe you are relying on the law for any form of righteousness. Salvation is a gift, same with righteousness.

1. Obedience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation. To the natural man, unsaved, it is impossible to keep the law.

If obedience is not a prerequisite for salvation, why then are we requesting unbels to obey the law or go to hell? These are mutually exclusive. If its impossible for them to obey, why then are we asking them to do it?

2. Unbelievers are not being forced to obey the law BEFORE as a prerequisite to salvation.

Neither are they required to obey the law when saved as a means of retaining their righteousness. Remember Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Now comes the real issue: The first part of salvation is that you acknowledge that you are a sinner . . . (please read the publican's prayer).
The next part is that you confess and genuinely repent of sin.
In other words the message of salvation CLEARLY includes the fact that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There are no two ways around it, you can't cajole a sinner to repentance by glossing over his sinful nature.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance.

Show us this in Acts. Let's try and see in Acts, the practical outworking of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels (Old Testament). The repentance required of an Unbel is that towards Christ. An Unbel who repents of fornication is still an unbel. The only time an Unbel is saved is when he repents of his unbelief in Jesus Christ.

@nwando,

Hear ye hear ye
Any Christians who succeeded in being thrown to jail,killed or ostracised by his preachings should check himself according to a "revelation" I just learned.
Once your preachings cause you any bodily harm,na you cause am
You no sabi preach the proper message of love according to tayoD.
I'll be mainly on read mode from now on.
Make una carry on.
I no go blaspheme lai lai.
God no go gree.

Try and be honest please. Your twisting my words does not make you right. You might do well to address what it takes to be saved, and what laws you have to obey in addition to your faith in Christ that will make guarantee your salvation.

Does anyone agree with me that obdience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation? If anyone does, why then do we require unbelievers to obey the law when we are trying to get them saved? Please provide cogent answers to this without trying to assasinate my character. I'll be more than willing to learn.

@all,

Una come they attack me left, right and center. na wa o. god is able. He is my stregth.

@Jeseoul,

I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I did not mean to. I'm attending to these issues while working at the same time, so I do not get to peruse some of the things I write and so have a chance to delete what may be offensive. Please accept my sincere apologies.

You have indeed quoted scriptures, but it don't mean they are appropriate for the situations you have tried to apply them. I refered to 2 of the scriptures you quoted and showed you that one does not refer to unbelievers and the other is actually a millenial scripture. But of course, many do not know that and so apply the scriptures wrongly.

I quoted a similar sermon given by Peter in Acts 3 and you basically ignored that.
- What was wrong with Stephen's message?

I did not ignore what Peter preached. Go back and see my answer. Peter's focus was on Christ, including the passage you highlighted.

There is a lot to learn from Stephen's message. The people listened to Him all the while he was preaching about God's deliverance of His people up until that point in history. However, he started accusing the people, and the focus went from Christ to man, and they became angry. he lost them at that point. Compare to Peter's message and every other message leading to salvation in the Book of Acts, and you will see that no one got saved from focusing on themselves but Christ.

to be honest . . . you did not answer stillwater's question and you have everything completely mixed up. This quote in phillipians has nothing to do with the discussion.

It absolutely aswers the question. The place of the law with regards to salvation is NIL. Paul made that clear from the passage in Phillipians. Please read it over again.

I don tire. I need to go home. I'll try and get to it at home.

@away4real,

@ Tayo further to Jesoul arguements i have a question which applies to me.
I am born again, spirit filled (now more like speak in tongues), i still engage in things I know is wrong, the spirit convicts me though and i ask for forgiveness.
My question is will I make heaven if God forbids I die in a state when i have sinned and havent asked for forgiveness.??
Are you saying once born again always born again and straight to heaven.

I knew this topic will snowball into something really huge.

I have one question for you. As a believer, what is the purpose of forgiveness? Is it to restore fellowship or to restore a relationship? In other words, is your asking God for forgiveness a means of getting back in favor with your Father, or is it a means of becoming His child? You should get what you are looking for when you answer that question.

@stillwater,

What is the meaning of salvation without coming to terms of what is sin and what's not through the law? Explain

Paul can explain better.

Phillipians 3:[/b]4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; [b]touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Paul mentioned he was blameless when it came to the righteousness of the law. In other words, he didn't fornicate, steal or kill, and yet he was absolutely lost. I'm ashamed to say so, but there are unblievers who live a better moralistic life than some Christians, and yet all that good stuff won't take them to heaven. their fate is the same as the unbels who are mired in those sins.

In verse 9, he mentioned not having a righteousness of his own. This is what Jesus mentioned in John 16 that I stated earlier. The Holy Spirit's job is to let the unbels know that all those righteousness in themselves isn't acceptable to God. And yet, we find believers telling unbels that they will be pleasing God by becoming more righteous in themselves. Something isn't right.

@nwando,

Abeg, go back and read my statements. That they do not sound like what you want to hear does not make them heretic. Maybe you need to meditate on the things I've said here so you can understand my point. I used to believe in the things I am arguing againts now until I learned otherwise.

And by the way, I never said what Jesus said isn't relevant. Many times He talks dispensation wise, but many do not realise. This is why many are unable to discern when He is teaching about the Church, the nations or the Jews. It is this kind of understanding that gave rise to the Substituion theology where every time the Isrealites are mentioned, people try to force-fit the scriptures to mean the church.

I'm not here to win an argument. I'm here to make a point based on my understanding of scriptures. You either accept it, reject it or refute it.

And concerning Stephen, you may try as much as you want to project and come to your own conclusion, but the fact remains that he only suceeded in getting the people angry when he called them sinners. Peter on the other hand got over 3,000 people saved when all he preached was Christ. If the Bible is written for our learning, I sure learnt something form both men. Jesus said the world will only be convicted about Jesus, and not about fornication and the likes. If you want the Holy Spirit to do His job, give Him something to work with - Jesus.

I am really surprised about your outrage. I thought you'd be outraged by 4Him's implying that we need to obey the law to be saved, but you do not see it fit to address that. I asked him, and you now, how many and how much of the ten commandments or the law did you obey before you earned your salvation?

@robert55,

how does a 25yrs old boy catch this argumentative spirit?

It's called zeal. That's why I try to infuse some knowledge as much as I can, and as long as he remains teachable. When his zeal is matched with knowledge, he will be such a great tool in God's hands.

@4Him,

Uncle Tayo-D, i expected this from someone else totally ignorant of the word. Not from a learned man like you. Because the bible is silent on an issue does not mean it did not happen.

The Bible mentioned what happened afterwards. he was stoned. Not one person was saved becuase it takes a preaching of Jesus for the Holy Spirit to convict. Other than that, you are on your own.

Did you read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?
Did you read the parable of the wheat and the tares?
Did you read Matthew 25 . . .
Did you read Luke 17

Are those in the new Testament or Old? Do you know the differeences btw the two? Christ lived in the OT and not in the NT.

He also said He came with to bring a sword.

What sword? Of asking people they will go to hell if they do not live right? The only thing that'll send anyone to hell is not believing in Jesus.

Unbelievable! But for God's longsuffering we long would have followed them. But read Luke 17.

The difference is the sacrifice. Christ died for the whole world, not just a part of it or a few people. His sacrifice affected everyone.

Perhaps in your own specially made bible.

I have shown you scriptures at least twice in the last 4 weeks that you never knew existed in the Bible. I will leave you to continually assume you know all. God will reveal some of these things to you in due time.

@Jesoul,

I'm not dodging. I do not have the time to start indoctrinating you. I have provided you with the principle that Jesus mentioned in John 16. It is up to you to use that understanding to interprete and properly divide the scriptures yu've mentioned.

For instance, you talk about the judgement seat of Christ. But you need to know that it is only the Beleivers who will be there. I have mentioned the separation of goat and sheep which is a reference to the millenia Kingdom even though many preachers use that passage wrongly.

So you see, it takes a lot to explain this passages, and I have no time or energy for that, at least for now. Maybe if this drags into the weekend, I'll attend to it.

@4Him,

Please look at the scriptures you quoted and the emphasis.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.The emphasis hear is on the person of Jesus and believing in Him. That is always the theme throughout the book of Acts. Ans when Christ was preached here in Acts 3, the people were pricked in the hearts by the Holy Spirit as jesus said in John 16.

As for Stephen accusing the people, how many of them were saved through that? You're right, NONE.

@4Him,

Have we so developed itchy ears that we want to blind our eyes to the fact that Christ bled on that cross warning us of the dangers of hell?

So now that we know the dangers of Hell, is it by not fornicating and stealing that will prevent the unbels from getting there? Why is it so hard for you to see this?

Christ did not preach the message of Fire and Brimstone in the NT to unbelievers. Please be aware that the NT did not start until His ascension into heaven. The message of F&B was well before His coming. He said he came not to condemn.

Hell is mentioned 830 times in the bible . . . and you are here justifying its conspicous absence in our churche sermons today?

I'm not justifying its absence. I am here saying telling unbelievers to stop sinning will not keep them from Hell. Unqualified belief in Christ is what will.

Sir, why was God angry at Soddom and Gomorrah?

Can you tell us how many more god has destroyed since S&G? Was christ crucified before then? S&G was destroyed principally because it was setting up a State of the Antichrist before its time.

Sir, salvation did not come and wipe out the law . . . it came to FULFILL the law.

So how many laws did you obey before you earned your salvation?

You're missing the point sir . . . the unrighteous will be judged first for the sin of unbelief and then by their works

Unbelievers will not be judged for their works. They will be judged for not believing in Christ. Believers are the once that will be judged and rewarded for their works.

Without having to expand this subject again, the only time unbels will be rewarded for their works is in the Millenia kingdom, where each nation will be preserved only on the basis of what they did to the Isreali nation. that is the separation of the sheep and goats.

@Jesoul,

I do not have the time to start walking through the scriptures to prove these basic isues with you, but in the mean time, kindly answer the following question.

1.  What difference does it make to the destiny of an unbeliever who through the "Gospel" of condemnation desist from stealing, killing, fornicating etc, without accepting Christ as his Lord and Saviour? Of what use is such righteous living to his/her destiny.

2. Are you in effect saying that unbelievers will be punished differently based on the degree of each person's sins. Those who fornicate less will be punished less etc? This is the apparent implication of what you are saying.

3. Since I've started with the scripture in John 16, please go through it again. In that pasage, Jesus outlines the Ministry of the Holy Spirit to the World. It is tripatite, and an understanding of it will help you see what you are missing from all the scriptures you've mentioned. Here is the passage again:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Let me give you an assignement. please go over the Acts of the Apostles and show me where the message of fire and brimstone was preached to convert unbelievers. Start with the message of Peter on the Day of Pentecost and point out where he told them to cease sinning to avoid hell. And by the way, you will see the Holy spirit pricking their hearts when all they heard was just Jesus.

@Jesoul,

What does this have to do with the topic?

It is actually at the heart of the topic becuase the issues I find that most people have with these preachers is that they do not preach the fire and brimstone messages that we used to hear from the MOG's of old. But the question we need to ask ourselves is this: "Is fornication, stealing, adultery and any such sins what will condemn the unbelievers to hell? Is God angry with them becuase of these sins? My unequivocal answer is No. So I am really surprised when as believers, we preach at unbels to not do this and not do that, as if those things have anything to do with their salvation.

Sin is the breaking of God's law. Period. Sin is the stealing, lying, immorality, fornication, blasphemy etc.

But what law is God holding the unbels to? John 16 is very clear that the only sin God will require of unbels is whether they believe in Christ or not. Infact, Jesus mentions that this is the only sin the Holy Sirit will convict them of. So when you see unbels being sorry for other sins, chances are high that it is not the Holy Spirit.

I skimmed through a little bit of your posts about it above but I think you're totally going off point. You're saying the sin men will be convicted of sin because they haven't believed in Jesus (John 16).
  Those that are not saved will be judged according to ALL they've done, not just that they didn't believe in Jesus! That is one sin among many.

That is where you are wrong. The unbels will only be judged based on what they did with Christ. No unbeliever will be rewarded for anything even if they are as "righteous" as Mother Theresa.

You need to look at those scriptures again, and you'll find that rewards are only meant for those who have come to believe in Christ. We are the once that God will reward based on our faithfulness or otherwise. There is absolutely no hope for those who do not die in Christ to receive any blessings.

@Jesoul,

I'll repeat the gospel is about sin and salvation - nothing else!!!!

My question to you Jesoul. What sin are we talking about here?