₦airaland Forum

@Afam,

Holistic approach to the issue. What is the issue? I guess it makes sense for you to understand what you believe the issue is lest we end up arguing over nothing.

Could it be that you don't even know what you are supposed to be writing about? Check out the title of this thread for a start - "Government's estimate of energy need, very faulty". Common sense dictates that the person making such an assertion will provide the facts and figures estimated by the Govt, but of course that is too much to ask from Afam.  What restimate are you disputing? You go on to write an entire piece that is based on a mere fabrication of your imagination and you expect people here to applaud your effort? Maybe that is what they do for you at Alaba, but it aint going to happen here because your audience is more enlightened than that.

Can you state any figures I have manufactured? Unlike you I am not in the business of trying to make people take me serious. Again I cannot remember claiming that the issue of using energy saving bulbs is the solution to a global issue. Stick to my comments please as I do not have the patience to over look lies you tell just to make you feel good.

Very simple. What is the Govt's estimate that you based this article upon? Please point us to where you got that information. The core issue here is steady power supply and you have come out to tell us that all we need do is shut down our industries and manage what PHCN currently supplies. That is the most stupid idea I've heard since I was in Primary 1.

Without thinking twice your advice has been sent to the trash can because you are not at home with my positions, making unnecessary assumptions or trying to force issues to tie with what you believe don't mean you understand what you think you understand.

It's obvious that you never think twice. Your article is an eloquent testimony to that. The same you who claimed above that: So, if PHCN can comfortably power just 5 millions homes using the calculations above then it means that in reality PHCN has what it takes to guarantee steady power supply to 60 million homes in Nigeria. is now saying you are not after a global solution?

NB: Take time to understand the meaning of % as it seems you are having problems understanding what it means even with figures used in the examples in the article to explain what one can save in energy needs.

Now I am beginning to pity the school where you got your Chemical Engineering degree. When you mention %tage, you must have a value in mind, otherwise you are basically refering to nothing, because a %tage of nothing is nothing. What is the referenced 100% you attributed to the govt's plan? It is not by force to display your ignorance in public by writing about what you know nothing about.

You can compare power to GSM or even urine if you like but as long as developed countries are even doing all they can to reduce their energy need I see no reason why Nigeria (that cannot even provide enough right now) will not benefit by generating power that is much less than what it currently plans to generate and this is common sense.

I know you always hyper-ventilate whenever you are intellectually scrutinized, but this has gone on to another low level. Why are the developing countries into energy conservation? Is it to maintain steady power supply? Is it to spare the blushes and hide the incompetences of their power producers? This is how you just follow-follow oyinbo without thinking for a moment. That scenario does not apply to present day Nigeria. Like they say in Naija, "wetin concern agbero with overload".
Your case is like the little girl who asks her mother why she cuts off both ends of the yam tuber whenver she want sto cook. Her mom responded that she doesn it only because she saw her mother do the same. They went ahead and asked the grandma the same question and she said she only did it because she also observed her ma do the same. On going to the great-grandma to ask the same question, she responded that she only did it because she did not have a big enough pot. So you see, doing what oyinbo man does without knowing why they d it is tantamount to stupidity.

@Afam,

So climate change has nothing to do with the quantity of carbon emission  which is a direct result of many ways of generating electricity using fossil fuel? Unless the dynamics changed last night I thought the issue was about reducing the amount of carbon emissions contributing to ozone layer depletion and melting of ices.

While I am still not totally convinced about all these brouhaha about climate change being a direct result of man's activities, I certainly didn't see anywhere in your write-up where you alluded to it. We only started talking about climate changes because I mentioned that the reason why those countries you mentioned are into energy savings is not becuase they are trying to cover up the incompetence of their power producers, but so as to protect the climate.  These are different things altogether. Your emphasis, apart from the Government's estimate whicih you are yet to produce, was on how consumers are the reasons why we do not have 24/7 supply of power in naija.

I hope you don't disagree with a position for the sake of it, please have a good reason to do so. What about SA?

I have provided some of my reasons which you are yet to tackle, even though I have responded to your entries one paragraph after the other. What about SA? I do not have any stats for SA in as much as I do not have for naija. I am still waiting for the statistics you mentioned in your report.

Even though there is absolutely no reason to talk about business issues I will tell you something that happened last Friday. I was invited by a bank to provide 72 hours inverter backup system for ATMs and we are talking over N400M here. I got some information from them and proposed a solution which was both realistic and made economic sense.

Congratulations. I said before that I do commend your efforts in this area, though acknowledging your lack of depth in the intricate details of providing power for a nation.

However, I was informed that they needed a particular inverter and a specific number of batteries (a complete overkill) based on what they believe is their energy requirement which was obviously wrong.
My response was simple, pay over 2 times what I offered to implement what they wanted (of course without any warranty) or save over N600,000.00 per ATM and have a reliable backup with full warranty.

You can see that you provided a superior argument, not based on limiting their consumption of energy, but based on what is economically sensible. That is what I have been trying to make you see. If they are sensisble enterpreneurs, they will understand that minimising their cost is enhancing their profits. A good manager will make such a move without any government legislation. We do not need any more government than we have. I'm trying to figure out one thing that the government does in naija that we can refer to as a complete suscess. Why extend that gross failure to other areas of the society?

I was told that their ATMs were rated at 800W and I informed them that we have ATMs that needed just 75W up to 300W even when dispensing cash or printing and the funny thing is that they agreed that they hear the newer models were energy efficient and as low as 300W.

There will always be improvemnents to products. When such improvements are made, they create further problems. I'll explain. It's most likely that the same bank will probably role out 3 times the numbers of ATMs as they are planning now if they plan to role out the newer model becuase of the substantial cash savings. what that means in essence is that while consumption per capita is lower, it is not so in aggregate. That practically makes nonsense of your argument about conservation being the panacea for our epileptic power supply.

So, the issue of energy efficiency is real and makes economic sense.

Of course the issue is real. No one denies that, infact I have advocated from my first response that the same economics should drive our consumption of energy and not the govt as you have proposed.

I have never run out of power in my office for about 4 years and I don't use a generator.
My energy bills at home crashed from an average of over N1500.00 to less than N400.00 per month simply because I switched to energy saving appliances.

How much does it cost to install and maintain the inverters in an average household? How often do you have to replace the inverters? Are these comparable toyour cost savings? Better still, multiply the cost of every household installing inverters by the number of households we have in naija. What do you come up with? Is that not more than enough to turn PHCN around? Which is more economically sound?

It is not about theory or politics, it is about what is both workable and economical.

The first thing we need is the govt getting out of the way. PHCN should be sold and operated by the private sector. Such an energy policy should serve as the bedrock for turning our energy sector around.

I am not here to solve Nigeria's energy problem so respond to the person that asked you a question, you don't have to push the question to me.

So what are you trying to do? You want me to answer the guy's question even though you have refered to a non-existing statistics for which serves as the basis for your whole argument. Doesn't sound very academic nor logival to me. Infact, it borders on half-truths and down-right lies. It makes one wonder what your true intentions are.

Just a heads up. Next time you roundly condemn someone, the Government, and in this case sef, the consumers, you need to take a wholistic approach to the issue. You cannot start manufacturing figures from thin air and expect people to take you seriously. You might say your article is dealing with a particular issue without making such uninformed statement that this minute issue is actually the solution to the global problem. This is just an advise which you can take or ignore, though it will serve you well if you accept the wisdom therein.

@lafile,

You are the second person who has told me that Nigerias Energy problem cannot be completely solved in the near future. You also mentioned the time it takes to design, procure, construct, install and operate the power generating facilities we need. Can you please give a concise explanation so i don't keep getting my hopes up?

I'd love to answer your question and will do so in due course. However, I think Afam should address that question since he should have thought it up as he prepares to solve Naija's energy problem. If he can't come up with an answer, I'll provide you with some facts and figures then.

@Afam,

If an energy policy of having the typical 60W bulbs replaced by 5W bulbs doesn't give you an idea of what 80% energy savings means then it will be easier to trek to the moon than for you to understand what has been clearly stated which for some reasons best known to you is not enough. Rather you want me to focus attention on politicians, really sad how we think.

What you do not understand is that consumers are not the problem of PHCN. Can you imagine someone telling us to cut down the use of our mobile phone simply because MTN or Globacom does not have the capacity to handle the traffic? Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? That is in essence what you are proposing. What MTN and co have done is to increase their capacity to meet the demand. Recharge cards are available for all to buy as long as you can afford it. What limits how much air time I spend will not only depend on my air time needs, but on my ability to afford to buy it. The GSM companies are not hinging their salvation on our lack of use of their network, but on their ability to meet our needs. Same is true in the area of power.

From 2009 it will be illegal for you to use the regular 60W or 100W bulbs in Australia, Ghana is pursuing an energy policy where energy saving bulbs are being pushed to the homes, homes and offices in US are embracing energy efficient products and we have a Nigerian tell me that it is not the business of government to push for the use of energy saving bulbs. I am only glad that you are in US and not in Nigeria where such narrow minded advice would do more harm than good.

I am not a band follower. That others may be doing some things does not mean it makes economic sense. I'm sure you have no idea why these nations are pushing for the use of these bulbs. It has nothing to do with efficiency nor trying to bail out the lack of competence fo their energy providers. The bulk reason is the so-called climate change, and not efficiency. But one thing many have failed to tell you is the fact that the energy efficient bulbs they are advocating actually contains mercury which ends up polluting our environment even more. A broken light bulb in that case becomes harmful and dangerous to humans, and this is what they are advocating we use in our homes. You obviously have no full grasp of these issues and just want to folow-follow without understanding the clear reasons nor the political activism behind those decisions.

NB: I hope you are taking note of some of the remarks you have directed at my person in your posts because it is typical of people like you to start complaining about choice of words when similar remarks are directed at your person and trust me it is such hypocrisy that drives me crazy.

Sorry if you feel sleighted. That is not my intentions. However, you never really addressed the core issues which I think you really don't have a grasp on. I'll appreciate if you tackle the things I mentioned and look at this globally.

@topic,

He also said that the rail lines would link the airport, lamenting, that Lagos was the only mega city in the world without an efficient rail system.

This one na korokoro lie. Minneapolis, St. Paul no get any such mass transit rail lines. Reason is not too far fetched - it involves a lot of govt subsidy. While it takes money to construct the thing, it takes much more to maintain it. Have they consodered this?

@topic,

Energy efficiency policy
There should be a complete halt to importation and manufacturing of energy inefficient products from electric bulbs to computers, fridges to TVs. A 60W bulb is equivalent 12 nos 5W energy saving bulbs so a home with 10 nos 60W bulbs is consuming in every hour energy that can be used for 12 homes using 10 nos 5W energy saving bulbs each for the same purpose - light.

Wetin!? Why should govt ban the importation of such? Let market forces regulate what people buy or do not buy. If it makes more sense for people economically to use less efficient and less costly power bulbs than more expensive, even though more efficient light bulbs, they will do so. People's pocket book should and is meant to guide their consumption patttern, rather than having govt do that.

Picture a neighborhood with one home (say on generator) with all the rooms lit (10 nos 60W bulbs) and 11 other homes around all in total darkness and compare that with a neighborhood with all 12 homes lit with 10 nos 5W energy saving bulbs using the same amount of energy a single home was using.

As long as people pay for what they use, I see no problem here. Where will govt regulations end assumning we accept the regulation on energy? Will we next say that govt should minimise the size of homes being built so as to ensure efficiency? People's driving pattern have changed due to the higher cost of gasoline. Same principle will appy here if market forces are allowed to come into play.

Effective monitoring of energy usage

There should be an effective energy monitoring team from PHCN or other relevant agencies that should identify and penalize homes or offices that waste energy by leaving security lights on even during the daytime when the security lights are not needed. It is not enough for the homes or offices to pay for the energy being wasted because they waste what others need.

You are so funny. The same PHCN that cannot carry out its function to genrate and distribtue power should now be saddled with more responsibilities and protocols to monitor how I use the power I pay for in my home? Get real! These guys are not wasting what others need. Rather, PHCN is not meeting the needs of its consumers. Have you ever found an enterpreneur who complains about too much demand for his/her products? Tell me, what do you do if there is a greater demand for your inverters? Common sense dictates that you supply more as long as you are being paid for your products.

If possible, all heavy duty appliances and machinery should be disconnected from the national grid for now until such a time when PHCN can provide for such heavy duty users. A situation whereby all homes and offices can enjoy steady power supply with basic appliances like TVs, lights, fans, fridges is certainly better than one where only a few people enjoy steady power supply just because a few companies or heavy energy users are making use of energy meant for the vast majority of Nigerians that are in dire need of regular power supply.

I can't believe you wrote this. So we should shut down our economy because of PHCN's inefficiency? Now tell us, who or what compnay enjoy this steady power supply you alluded to? Are we discussing the same naija?

Why 20% of the current estimate will be enough to guarantee steady power supply

Please provide facts and figures. Can't comment on some numbers you just produce out of thin air.

Without knowing the exact amount of energy that the government is planning to generate to improve power supply in Nigeria one thing is certain, the government is wrong in its estimate for the following reasons;

I do not know how to react to your statement in bold. How did you arrive at 20% when you do not even know what 100% is? Since your premise is wrong, your entire submission should really be trashed.

1. There is no policy on energy efficiency and as such any calculations made must have been based on the current inefficient products that abound everywhere. For example, compare 1 no 60W bulb to 12 nos 5W energy saving bulbs and you will realize just how wrong the government is in not taking energy efficiency serious.

My guy, please desist from this efficiency you keep hollering about. Market forces will regulate that. If you need more info about how this can be achieved, I'll gladly share with you.

2. As a fallout of the mistake above the government will be planning to generate energy with about 80% of the energy not really needed considering the fact that we can immediately save a lot of energy by switching to energy efficient products.

Again, how did you arrive at 80%, when you do not know what 100% is? That is highly illogical. Besides, when there is more supply than demand, it produces cheaper products for the consumers. Excess power genration will be a blessing, so let the govt carry on. If we have excess (which aint possible), we can sell to other needy countries.

Many see bulbs as very light loads but until they do a little calculation they never realize how wrong they are.

If they receive the right bills every month from PHCN, they will be quick to understand if they should cut down the use of those light bulbs or get more efficient once. Again, market forces is all we need.

A regular TV takes about 70W - 160W (including over 32" LCD TVs but excluding energy wasting Plasma TVs), fridges or freezers hover between 70W - 300W for the large ones, a typical 3 bedroom apartment has about 15 bulbs and at 60W per bulb the apartment will be using 900W of electricity every hour.

Leave my plasma TV alone. Let people enjoy whatever they want with their hard-earned money. As long as they are paying the bilss, the supplier should have no problems.

Put differently, in most cases the bulbs account for the bulk of your energy bills at home.

So what? It shouldn't be the govt's business.

Using the bulb as a good example we will see what we stand to gain by replacing the typical incandescent bulb (60W or more) with their energy saving counterparts especially the 5W ones.

1 home with 15 nos 60W bulbs = 900W per hour
In 12 hrs (x12) = 10800W
In a month (x30) = 324000W
In one year (x12) = 3,888,000W

24 hours steady power supply for this home would mean that the government must generate 7,776,000W of electricity and the home will be required to pay N31,104.00.

Isn't this the more reason why PHCN should have no excuse? Can you imagine if I have the opportunity to make that much money each year from every household in Nigeria? I would definitely expand my business and thank God for the consumers.

If this home decides today to switch to energy saving bulbs rated at 5W each retaining the same 15 nos then the government would only need to generate 648,000W in a year for this home and the bill will effortlessly crash to N2,592.00 which is 83% lower than what this home would have paid in one year for the same number of bulbs only this time with energy saving bulbs to content with.

While that is true, it still isn't the govt's business to tell me what I should use in my house. If I see the cost implications, I might just switch over to the enrgy saving bulbs myself.
And on an interesting note, I may just decide to build a bigger house from these cost savings and so have more light bulbs in my house. Or maybe buy 2 plasma TVs instead of 1, and so on and so forth. So where is the wisdom in limiting how much power PHCN should produce?

The government would realize that it is cheaper, easier and faster to generate about 20% of whatever energy it is planning to generate now to improve power supply.

Again, that magic 20%. Please share this 20-80 formula with us.

A home with 15 nos 60W bulbs is actually making use of energy that 12 homes with 15 nos 5W energy saving bulbs each can use without problems.

You've beaten this horse to death already.

So, if PHCN can comfortably power just 5 millions homes using the calculations above then it means that in reality PHCN has what it takes to guarantee steady power supply to 60 million homes in Nigeria. All that is needed is for someone somewhere to do what is right for Nigerians to enjoy steady power supply.

You obviously have no clue what it takes to make power a steady and uninterrrupted commodity. You're thinking more about generation which is a very minute part of the whole deal.

Steady power supply is possible, within reach and easy to provide only if we are bold and humble enough to understand the cores issues and ways to respond to them accordingly.

What core issues? That we need to effficiently manage our darkness than we are doing? Start dealing with the issues by addressing the poli-thieves (some people call them politicians), who embezzle the money meant to revive PHCN. Leave the technical aspect of the details to those who know what it takes to revive our power sector.

@Afam,

I think this will be the second article you have written or posted on nairaland regarding Naija's energy use/policy. While I commend your effort and energy to address these issues, I basically disagree with what you have proposed. I work in the energy industry and my thoughts are not just based on idealism but also experience. This issue is thus very dear to my heart even though I basically think naija is almost a lost cause as per my generation witnessing 24/7 supply of power unless very drastic measures are taken, and taken quickly. Let me address your points one after another.

Government's estimate on energy need, very faulty

What is that estimate? Do you have the figures presented by the Govt? If you do, please tell us how you arrived at your figures so we can make an informed decision.

Everyone agrees that we need constant electricity in Nigeria. Very few Nigerians care about how we use energy in Nigeria. The government seems not to be on top of the core issues let alone addressing them properly.

How I use energy in my home should be of no concern to anyone as long as it isn't used for illegal activities. What business do you or the govt have with how I use energy when I obtain the energy legally and pay for it personally?

Can we see uninterrupted power supply in Nigeria anytime soon? Yes,

That is a pipe dream! How long do you think it will take to build adequate generating capacity, provide transmission facilities, establish requred substations, and install the necessary distribution structures? Do you have facts and figures of these? Better still, do you know how long it takes to design and build one?

only if the government does the right things including but not limited to a strong energy efficiency policy,

Forget the govt monitoring energy use and efficiency. Market forces will naturally regulate such. We don't need a police state, but a free market state.

effective monitoring of energy usage and generating the much needed power which from facts and common sense may not be more than 20% of whatever figures the government is currently relying upon to improve power supply.

Again, how did you arrive at your 20% figure? Please share the govt info with us. I ask not just because I like to verify facts, but because I really will like to see how they arrived at the figures.

@topic,

Am I the only one who sees the sales girl as the planner and execuitioner of the 419? She obviously conived with the police officers to swindle this poor guy of his hard earned money.

@poster,

Going by your story, I do not think you did anything wrong. You were just outsmarted and duped by the people you do business with. Chikena!

@topic,

Just passing through andsaw the first post on this page by bamolowo.

Who was Amasa's father?

2 Samuel 17:25
Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ishra and Israelite.

1 Chronicles 2:17
And the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmaelite.

If you care to do some studying, you will find that the Ishra and Jether actually mean the same in Hebrew - "Abundance." Whether it is a lack of scholarship or outright bold-face lie, your submission, bamolowo is totally baseless. While I have not gone through everything you've posted here, I am sure a careful scrutiny of your submissions will reveal them to be nothing more than the charade that I have proven this one to be.

@almodjoy,

Well it happens across the world. Mike Tyson and MC Hammer met similar fates. No condition is permanent!

Where did you get your info from? What led to MC hammer's fall was his over generosity and lavish lifestyle. He was too generous to a fault wanting to make everyone happy. He lacked business sense and ended up bankrupt. If you have contrary information, please be kind to share it.

Majek on the other hand is an eloquent testimony of why anyone and everyone should stay away from crack.

@nwando,

No wonder!

Come out and talk finish. You are the true follower of your politic-star called Obama. You daze us with superlatives while avoiding specifics. No wonder wetin?

@kola oloye,

In this kind of a club,how do you intend to prevent The Wolves In Sheeps Clothing?

We are not meant to separate ourselves from the world, but rather shine as lights amongst them. let them come, that is how they will encounter the Word of life.

@gbekumoyan,

If the whole idea is sinless, guileless and gospel centric? I might just fall in. I love to have fun but, I'm purpose conscious.

Whatever your name means Its good to relax as needed, and of course you can be sure that you will be edified while being entertained.

Sounds really nice,u could also use it as a way of reaching out to d less previledged.

A number of unbls have walked in to the Club several times due to its location and services. They walked out saved, convicted or more hardened - they never remain the same. The club is smoke free, alcohol free, and Christ-full.

@JeSoul,

However, the sprinkling of blood in heaven was not done by us, but by Him, and it was a one time event. Furthermore it was for the cleansing of those heavenly ceremonial things, not earthly things like our houses and cars etc. . . How then from that can we develop a continual and everyday use of it? on earthly things?

What we do when we plead the blood is just expressing faith in it. Faith is not complete until it is expressed in words and action. Pleading the blood is essentially an act of faith.

Secondly, in all the examples of prayers in the bible, we don't see any of our great crowd of witnesses or Jesus or the apostles using the blood as a prayer point/tool in the way we use it today. We don't see any application of it in prayers. and we're not taught to pray like that.

The Bible talks about "faith in the blood".  Can you tell us how this is done? Also, how did the Saints in Rev 12:11 use the blood to their advantage in conflict with the enemy? While details are not given, I simply believe it is an act of faith, and that is what people who plead the blood are doing - expresing their faith in the efficacy of the blood to provide protection.

Now i know not everything we do is taught or shown in the bible but I think using something as precious and holy and sacred as the blood of Jesus needs some form of justification. Don't you think so?

Everything in the Bible is precious and holy. Besides, we are holy in His sight and how can we who are holy not use what is holy in our daily living?

Also can I assume you frequently pray using the 'blood of Jesus'?

Actually, I can't remember when last I did. The key in prayer is not to just repeat some preconceived thoughts, but rather be led by the Holy Spirit. I tend to follow whatever direction I am being led and not be limited to my preconceived way and thouhgts. For instance, many will always call on fire when they pray. While this may not be wrong, it smacks of tradition and abuse. If God reveals to me in prayer to deal with a situation with and through fire (judgement), then I will go that direction. if He instructs to use the blood, I will go that way. If there is no direction, and I sense the need for some warfare, there is the ever "sure word of prophecy."

@AKO,

So it all boils down to the name, not the blood. The shed blood is what empowered (if you will) the name. Even in confessing our sins by the blood not a priest, we do it in the name.

I do not fully understand what you are saying here so it is so hard to respond. Everyhthing we do is in the name of Jesus, but that doesn't take away the efficacy of the blood. Rev 12:11 is very clear that it was through the blood and their testimony that the Saints overcome. The qustion is how did they employ the use of the blood, and how did they employ the use of their testimony?

The context of this is forgiveness of sins and reconciliation, it has nothing to do with pleading the blood over a car, a cat, a house, etc. Many christians have taken it this far and I believe it is quite erroneous. Like you said, it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit (mostly through correct interpretation of scripture) that makes the difference.

While I can't teach the practice of pleading the blood as a doctrine, I seriously don't see the way its used as a violation of scripture. What those who plead the blood over certain aspects of their lives are doing is simply expressing their faith in the blood. Doesn't that bring Rev 12:11 to mind?

The use of the blood wasn't just a means of reconciliation and forgiveness as we saw in shadows also in the OT. It was clearly also a means of defense, as we saw clearly in the passover.

@topic,

Thanks for this topic Jesoul. I have been rather too busy these days to make much contribution on nairaland even though I normally take a peek once in a while.

Let me say upfront that it isn't innaprpriate to use the blood of Christ as a defence in our combat against the evil one. Like 4Him mentioned earlier, Rev 12:11 clearly teaches that our victory is accomplished by the use of the two edged sword of the blood of Christ, and our testimony.

However, the origin of the use of the blood as a means of defence against the enemy probably originates in Egypt. Remember the passover? The blood of the lamb agaisnt the post of the door provided an escape for the angel of death. That blood of the lamb was a shaow while the blood of Christ is the reality.

One other way to look at this is the fact that there is nothing we can get from God apart from what has been purchased through the blood of Christ. Redemption goes beyond the forgiveness of sins. It includes reconciliation, enrichment, protection, glorification etc. All of these are possible only through that shed blood.

Now if you read through Hebrews 9, you will find that it was required that the blood of Jesus be sprinkled on everything in heaven just as it was done on earth in the OT. This I believe provides the basis for today's use of the blood the way people do. Whether that is innapropriate is left to personal leanings and conviction.

Hebrews 9: 11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

@palemon,

By a Christian club I mean a place where Christians can go out play games, dance buy drinks, generally hang out, listen to one or two artiste in an environment that is clean {as in smoke and alcohol free} with the people there decently dressed and of the same mind

Have you checked out "Club 3 Degrees"? It offers exactly what you are looking for and is located right in the center of Downtown Minneapolis, even though the Church is located on the outskirt.

By the way, when you have visited the Club's website, you might want to check out the next generation of online TV mininstry at www.iworshiphere.com. I ighly recommend the website. Of course my church is part of the ministries coming together to get this done. You can listen in to Pastor Mac hammond of the Living Word Christian Center. That is where I worship.

@mystikal,

mystikal:
I'm suprised some of you pretend not to notice how the media esp CNN supported Obama for a long time and were constantly having negatives on Hilary.
I think she's got a strong character, Obama has been riding on the media praises for too long

Obama has being nothing but a media pet project. He is a guinea pig in the hands of the media to test the extent of their influence over the decisions of the community at large. No one dares criticize him. Can you even imagine McCain campaign manager saying he wont run any negative (even though factual) ads about Obama? Is the fear of Obama, which translates to the fear of media backlash the beginning of wisdom?

@topic,

I actually took a liken to Obama when I listened to his wife. I watch her speak I think, on C-SPAN a while back and I must say, she is just as articulate and smart as her husband. The impression I got was if the wife is this good, I'd like to listen to her husband.

Nonetheless, my liken for them has not translated to support. I find it hard to pick one of the 3 stooges, though I am tending more to McCain because the conservative agenda stands a better chance of getting done if he is elected.

@topic,

As promised, I have opened a new thread titled: Salvation - Matters Arising. You can view the topic at https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-117245.0.html

This topic has been created to address the various issues that have been raised from the discussion of the topic "Paula White: Without Walls or Without God?", found here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115214.0.html.

My primary concern in the discussion was the impression created by some other discussants that our salvation is works-related. While it appears that Analytical was able to bridge the gap between the various parties, I still find myself surprised by the fact that our expectations concerning the basic and most fundamental aspect of our faith was up for different interpretations.

Let's use this opportunity to discuss not only the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ, but our daily walk with the Lord as well. How do we become Babes in Christ? How do we grow? How do we mature? What is the hallmark of maturity? What makes a good Christian? Infact, what makes you a Christian?

I'm trusting God that we will all learn one thing or the other from this topic.

Let me round this up by paraphrasing Paul's words in 1 Cor 14:26,40 - In this e-gathering, everyone has a word of instruction, a revelation, a prayer. Let everyone make their supply decently and in order that the Church may be edified.

@topic,

This topic has obviously snow-balled into something greater than the original poster intended. I would think a separate thread need to be created to address all the issues concerned.

I'll open up a new thread and provide links subsequently.

@JayFK,

Just have some questions or observations regarding your input. I'll try and relate them to the topic at hand.

1. Non Intervention

While every one knows the US is guilty of this, would you say the same regarding Hugo Chavez? Isn't his escalation of this crisis intervention? I still have a hard time figuring out why he is so involved with this to the extent that he sent out troops to his borders ahead of the country whose territorial integrity is in question

2. Anti Imperialism/Puppet states

US and others lead the pack here. But tell me, isn't Chavez guilty of the same?

3. I'm all for communal ownership and a classless society however it should not be a one party system like the Soviets.

Communal ownership of what?

4. I'm against racism, tribalism, homophobia and I'm all for gender equality

The US is arguably the most tolerant country in this regard.

5. Promotions and salaries should be awarded based on merit and education

Is this possible if communal ownership is encouraged? Communal ownership requires all to receive same salary irrespective of individual output. Communal ownership is diametrically opposed to capitalism. While capitalism encourages individual compensation based on efforts, communal ownership doesn't.

although It should be kind of a Socialist/capitalist society much like modern China and Sweden

You want the best of both worlds ehn? If a society is prosperous through capitalism, why the need to make the State a welfare clearing house? If everyone has the opportunity to pursuit of wealth and happiness, why should others live on the sweat of others when they could also be contributing to nation building?

I used to view Venezuela and Cuba as the more advanced countries in South America I mean compare them to the rest of South America. But it seems like Chavez has decided to devote his energies to aggravating the United States

It is not only the US that he is aggravating. The guy just seems to like attention, good or bad. I do not see any wisdom in his actions. His main problem with Colombia is because it isn't run by a leftist like him.

I disagree with your view on abortion though. I feel women should have the right to decide what is best for them, if she's married then it should be the couple's choice.

Tell me, what rights does the baby have if any?

@Ibime,

@ Tayo-D

Who is talking about lazy people here? Did you here me say let us give money to the lazy people? If you read the thread earlier where I pinpointed measures being taken by Holland to get the lazy off their backside

So are you agreeing with me or some of us that the welfare system as practiced by the West should be scrapped? The system breeds nothing but lazy people who not only milk the hard work of others, but also limit their personal growth and success based on the route they have chosen.

I am in support of Social Welfare - as a safety net. That was the original idea in the first place.

How will that work practically? The Govt does not produce anything. It takes money from people and spend it. They cannot spend more than their budget for the year, and their needs will always grow to accomodate any excess of money allocated to any branch or dept of govt. Now if there is economic trouble, the truth is that the govt's budget will also be affected because the govt gets its money from the citizens. So how will the govt have money to give in times of economic uncertainty? Besides, why should somone else pay for my economic woe? Any one who helps must do so willingly out of the goodness of their heart. Nothing more and nothing less.

@D-reloaded,

I did read it, after all he was respoinding to 4Play's comment and I think you blew it up and kept dragging it out for no reason.

And what have you done by this statement, brought an end to it? I was beginning to believe that there is hope for nairaland in the politics section.

This is the second thread I have been involved with in the past few days where people with opposing views have discussed intelligently without resorting to insults. But you guys have spoilt that. Everyone has a right to respond to any postings on this forum even if it wasn't addressed to them. What part of PUBLIC forum isn't public?

Please let's try and keep to the topic. Calling someone obnoxious isn't related to this toic is it?

@Ibime,

Just want to address some of your concerns.

Well thank God you aren't in Government. Every civilised government in the world is doing the opposite of what you are saying - so either they are stupid - or you are. Cancel that - no need for insult.

In my opinion, the govt is indeed stupid. Welfare isn't the job of govt, it is governance, law, order and justice. Won't you think it strange if the judiciary suddenly gets itself involved in welfare? This is just as ludicous as the Excecutive or Legislative arm of govt doing the same. Because it's common now doesn't make it right.

Governments know better than to leave people starving - because a hungry man is an angry man, so you better hide behind your electric fences when they get angry.

The Govt role in food security should not be extended to providing food for the lazy man. The Jesus you mentioned said "he that does not work should not eat."

Actually, that is already happening in Naija now. The rich neglected the poor and now the poor are killing them like fowls - either by armed robbers, potholed roads or ineffective bootlegged drugs. Go figure!

The rich are not responsible for the poor. A man is responsible for his family, and not every privates and harry out there. If my money has to go to the poor, it must be out of my own volition and goodness of heart, not forced upon me by a govt. That armed robbers are roaming aour streets and killing people shows a failure of the govt, not the rich.

Do-gooding leftist? - yes, thank God I am. Jesus was also. I'm in good company. Rather 'do-good' than 'do-bad'.

that is a very bold statement you made. Jesus may have done good, but He never indulged people who are lazy. Jesus was a hard worker and encouraged hardwork. Besides, Jesus did not ask Ceasar to provide for the people, He did that out of the goodness of His heart. If jesus met peopkle's needs through His own reaources, why do we expect the govt to now be the one doing it? Welfare should be left in the hands of the private sector who can administer their own hard earned money better.

Do you not think the people running these Pension funds are professionals? Can they not do a better job than 95% of ordinary people?

No one can handle my money better than I do. I sweated for it, and know its value better than them. I mentioned just one of the tenants I have had who abused this welfare scheme. That could never happen if it was administered by the private sector.

By the way, the Bible is very clear in the Book of Romans what the govt's role should be. It is primarily to provide justice and fairness in the society. Welfare is not one of them. The Disciples in Acts were very specific that provisions were for old women and widows. The function is performed by the Church and not the State. However, the Church is only to be burdened when there is no other family member that can take care of the needs of the widow or elderly woman.

@doyin13,

And come to think of it. . . .Tayo I would hope those farm subsidies are amongst the social programs you would like to see scratched and not
just social programs that redistribute to the poor and lazy. Its funny how such like are not protested as much as inner city social welfare

I have nothing against subsidising food because it is essential to a nation's security. The nation's security is virtually the most important aspect of a govt job. The social welfare you are requesting is totally against capitalism.

I had a tenant on section 8. The govt pays $1,200 for her rent every month. She gets food stamps and a cheque form the govt every month and I know there is absolutely nothing wrong with this woman. She is healthy but lazy. Infact, she intentionally works less every time so as to avoid getting kicked off the benefits. There is absolutely no incentives to work because the more you do, the more you are taxed. And if you do not work, Uncle Sam will deprive those who do to pay you. So guess what she does? This is what socialism encourages.

Our people come here and work 2 to 3 jobs to get ahead, yet people here sit down on their behinds and milk those who do to the last penny. This is what socialism encourages.

@4Play,

The way leftist politicians demonise  businesses.One may easily forget that its those businesses and the entrepreneurial class in general that constitute the financial lifeline of the Govt.

If I get my numbers right, Exxon pay about 40% of their profits as taxes. This amout represents more than the entire taxes paid by more than half of the American population. It's so funny that while Exon makes about 7 to 8 cents per gallon of gas, the govt, depending on what State you are in get as much as $1.50 per gallon. Please tell me, who is guilty of price gouging? The guy who earns 8 cents with all the hard work, or the one who earns $1.50 with no production capacity?  

@doyin13,

But what I don't understand is why someone like Reagan is not indicted in the same
manner for his errant spending.

it seems overblown expenditures on 'nationalistic' schemes are okay
but for social programs, there are a no-no.

That is becuase the social programs in most cases are nothing but wealth redistribution. Social programs should be left in the hands of private organisations like Red Cross. People should give to others based on what their conscience allows them and not otherwise.  The Government should focuse on governance, law, order, security and justice. The Robinhood spirit of taking from the hard working rich to sustain the many times, lazy poor should not be allowed to take root.

@doyin13,

And there i was thinking Minnesota was Liberal. . . . .You really should be living in Mississippi man

We made progress against such liberalism by voting in a conservative Governor. But now we have a Democratic majority in both Houses, and enough Republicans by name, but liberal by heart Representatives who can swing over to the Dems side to overturn hi veto. The situation is very dire now. Many people are really making plans to relocate to another State.

The funny thing is that our Governor, along with an even House a year ago, had about $3 billion budget surplus. The Democrats after gaining the upper hand, forced the surplus to be spent on social programs. We have now gone not only from surplus to shortage within one year of the Democrats in power, but we now have to raise taxes to meet their unquenching thirst to spend our money.

@nwando,

The ones voting him in are mainly Democrats who don't want McCain now or in November

I don't think you are completelely right on this. A lot of Republicans are out there voting for Obama. you know why? because they hate Clinton so much that they want to get rid of here as soon as possible. They don't want to take the chances at the general election. Like someone said, "you do not wait for a more opportune time to drive the cross into the heart of a vampire. You do it at the slightest opportunity."

That is what some Republicans are doing by voting in Obama. Each vote for Obama is a driven cross into the heart (if there is any) of the vampire called Hillary.

@nwando,

since Obama came out with his cute self,I've been converted.

Converted from what? A conservative to a liberal? Their ideas about governance are poles apart. So on what point were you converted, or are you just blinded by the sweet talk of the charming guy? Abeg, wake up before it is too late o. The yeye Democrats just raised our taxes here in MN. Our sales taxes will be rising from 6.5% to 7.5 to 8%, and they are adding another 50 cents to $1.00 on our gas bills. They had to overide the Republican Govs veto to make this happen.

If you give the Dems control of both Houses and the Presidency, you will find yourself paying 40% to 50% of your income to Uncle Sam before Obama's term is over. I will relocate to china before that happens .