₦airaland Forum

@Mckren,

You have as much responsibility to show us that Obama's claim to Change is a hoax as we have to prove that it is real. Why not start by telling us how similar his policies are to Gorge W. Bush.

No way, the onus is on you who is talking about change to tell us what changes you will bring about. How can you tell me to prove you will make changes that you are boasting that you will make. The burden of proof is on you. The fact is, I like Georgie's policies, though he has started to cave in to pressure especially with respect to illegal immigration. His policy for the troop surge which Obama opposed worked out very well. Obama believe in preemptive strike just like Georgie (he said this much during the debates).

It is also interesting that you are more interested with a defence of Obama without any reference to any website. God knows how you plan to ascertain what the person says.

What I am interested in is someone who believes in such change telling us what the changes are in their own words. Is that too much to ask? Perhaps the only thing they know of Obama's change is the rhetoric.

@away4real,

i knw what the Democrats stand for, pros and cons and the effect particularly on the macro economy.

Do you really understand what the Democrats stand for economically? I find the recent tax incentives offered by Bush and supported by both parties to indicate how ideologically hollow the Democrats are. While the Republicans believe in smaller govts who tax you less and leave more money in your pocket, the Democrats believe othersise.

That both parties believe that the economy will be stimulated with more money in our pockets through the tax incentive makes me wonder what the point of the Democratic party really is. Can someone please reconcile their policy to this action?

@topic,

Can someone please highlight the various changes that Obama plans to make without refering us to some websites. We all know and can list what Bush stands for on issues such as abortion, immigration, iraq, the war on terror, preemptive strikes, social security, health care etc. Can someone please tell us what changes Obama will bring to bear on these important issues.

@therationa,

Why don't your church sell the plane and give the money to the poor, like Jesus would have done. Remember Jesus asking the rich to sell their possessions and give the money to the poor.

As if you know more of what Jesus would do than we do. Tell me, is it every rich man that jesus told to give all their possessions to the poor? You miss Jesus' point altogether. The only reason why he made that request of that particular rich man is so to reveal the covetousness in his heart. And by the way, do you know what happens when you give? You'll receive more of what you gave.

Talk about following in Jesus's footsteps.

Jesus did everything within His power and used every means available in his days by land and sea to preach the gospel. If the ploane helps to preach, so be it, we will make use of it. We are gonna get the Gospel out by every means possible through every voice available.

@olorioko,

Furthermore, its only very rich guy that can attract the attention of the congress, boy the guy is so loaded that the state is afraid of him.

The guy actually gave our church a plane about 4 weeks ago. Talk about being a giver.

@therationa,

The tele-evangelists Kenneth Copeland and his wife are being subjected to a congressional investigation about their ministry and the charges of deception. Watch this;

I don't know what your point is by making public what is already known by a lot of people.

Personally, I think the Congressman has overstepped his authority and I am glad that Creflo Dollar is fighting him over this even though the other five ministries have submitted all the documents he requested to him.

What business does a congressman have teaching doctrine? If he feels stongly that the Bible message is not being preached, he should go set up his own church and teach doctrine. Going on national T.V. declaring that Jesus' Disciples have no business flying planes when Jesus rode on a donkey is absolutely a doctrinal position which he cannot enforce on others through the office of a senator.

As for the private use of the plane, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, especially considering the fact that he pays for the use of the plane whenever he has to use it for a private purpose. Let me give you an example. He was in our church last year after which he headed to Singapore for preaching. After his meeting in our church he headed straight to Hawaii for a vacation using of course, the plane. His vacation time fell between ministry work that are continents apart and it only makes sense that he uses the plane to Hawaii after which he headed to Singapore. And for those who don't know, he paid all the expenses associated with the plane's use to Hawaii. This much the new people will never tell you.

For the prayer requests, no one in their right senses expects the Copelands to read all that mail. Have you ever seen most ministries who address letters on T.V.? The minister hardly opens anything but still prays over them. His reading the letter doesn't answer the prayers. If all the Copelands do is address all the letters they receive during their prayer time, that will be more than sufficient. The letters coming in only help the faith of those who sent it.

As for the guy in the report. Am I the only one who thinks he shouldn't be reading letters without prior authorisation? I think the guy should be investigated for probably opening and reading unauthorised mails. It is obvious that he is pissed of that things were not done his way. Someone should please let him know that he is not the administrator of Kenneth Copeland Ministries.

@topic,

My Hot, sorry honeymoon was at Obudu Cattle Ranch. We plan to go back there in a few years for a return match. I won't tell you what the competition is.

@Afam,

TayoD/Tayo-D, pahtahkee,

You guys are simply criminally minded that is why you don't see anything wrong in faking identities all the time.

Faking identities? Do you know the meaning of that phrase. Kindly tell us whose identity I faked. Haven't you been taught not to use words whose meanings you do not know?

About the topic, I saw a post with the name 4 Play and clicked on it, immediately I realized it was the same I-man who may have been using many usernames here and I felt that it was not fair that some people here use multiple identities because at the end of the day you cannot even be certain that you are dealing with real people but with multiple personalities of a few people.

You must think those imaginary friends you have are now making posts on the internet. Who else but real people make posts? When are you going to get it into your head that this forum isn't designed or meant for people to make their identities known. If you think otherwise, kindly show us how through your post anyone can pinpoint who you are. I guess Seun designed it as such in order to dissuade clueless people like you who are ever hung on personalities. Sniffing around people's butt will not heal you of your insecurity.

So, I cannot waste my time discussing with criminally minded rogues like you people.

Don't flatter yourself. What do you plan top discuss with that puss in your head you call brain. That criminality is entrenched in your blood doesn't make others criminals like you. Ode.

By the way this topic was lying idle until I responded to it while making it clear that you people should stop this shameless act.

And we have seen your contribution so far to the topic at hand - nothing. This is so typical and expected. We cannot expect you to provide anything from ther nothing in your head.

Anyway, criminals don't see anything bad in what they do so I am not surprised that you see your actions as normal, silly things.

You are just so full of bull shit. Even after saying the following: Good for you. Can you reproduce your first post where you specified that TayoD and Tayo-D are one and the same person?, you come back to say I am criminally minded despite the fact that my very first post with the new user name acknowledges why their is a difference? Though many have come to know you as the nairaland idiot, your recent postings have finally removed all doubts. Go on with your foolishness, it appears you are really comfortable in it.

And by the way, the only criminal here is you. Even though you know the truth which was presented to you fair and square, you prefer to hide it and give the impression of falsehood.

@topic,

My church has one. It is called CLUB 3 DEGREES. Check it out http://www.club3degrees.com/index2.asp

@Afam,

4 Play/I-man, TayoD/Tayo-D, mr pataki/pahtahkee,

Since you guys believe it is perfectly normal for you to use multiple IDs on a discussion forum after being banned then it means that you guys are shameless.

Must you use a forum when you cannot abide by the rules set by the owner? You guys sound desperate as if you don't have any life outside this forum.

It is such desperation that is affecting you people and has blinded you guys into thinking that using/hiding under different user names is a cool thing.

Continue with your shameless acts, it is only sad that such multiplicity of identities may have put a lot of people off on this forum as you never know who is making a point and who is supporting the same point since some of us here can actually have up to 3 or more usernames at the same time.

It iw very obvious that you lack the capacity to discuss issues without a personality attack. If you are so eager to make your identity known, why not post your name, pictures, adress and everything so people could easily identify you in real life. Going by the way that you are unable to separate issues from personality, I have come to the conclusion that you are a very insecure person, but your recent posts have shown that you are a hypocrite as well.

Nairaland and majority of online forums like these are designed so issues can be addressed, albeit anonymously. So for ou to get hung up on whether people are who ou think they are or not just provides you with a smoke screen to hide your ignorance of the subject matters. Please forward match to Facebook if you are interested in knowing more about people. And do everyone a favour by not putting up a group picture while indicating you are one of them. And by the way, did you ask for the persmission from the people whose pictures you have put online?

It is obvious that you have suceeded in hiding your ignorance so far by making sure that you have said nothing about the topic at hand, even though you've posted several times and we are on page 2 of the thread. keep it up as stuff like these is what your heroes in PDP are known for. It is hufing and puffing throughout their tenure with nothing tangible to show for it at the end of the day.

@Afam

Ok, not everyone sleeps and wakes up on the Religion Section so there is no way I would have come across that considering the fact that many of you that try to pretend to be good christians are filled with hatred towards a people which is pure hypocrisy and sycophancy.

Again you gone of on a tangent making spurious accusations without any facts to back it up. Are you so full of yourself that you expect people to just take you at your word even when such has never beeing shown to be factual? As for finding that statement, common sense dictates that you can easily find the first and last post of a person when you click on their profile and follow the instructions there. I thought you are smart enough to figure that out. I guess I was wrong.

So, on the issue of I-man/4 Play, he could not deny it when he was exposed, if you want proof just ask him and I am sure he has been embarrassed enough on this forum so should be able to respond to you, truthfully even if this will be his first time to do so in a long long while.

this again is based on what you have to say, which truthfully isn;t reliable enough for me. I know its outside your comfort zone, but please try and provide proofs next time. You are not giving a good impression of yourself with this.

@Afam,

How convenient, I make a statement and you insist I should provide proof, you make a statement and when asked to provide proof you veer off and tell anyone that cares to research, you see the same level of hypocrisy that I have been complaining about?

This has nothing to do with hypocrisy. It has to do with telling you what to do in order to confirm or dismiss the notion you have. My last statement should not be read in isolation from everything we've said thus far. You made an accusation which you should provide a proof for. I told you how to get the facts you need. Do I still need to dig up those facts for you? If I just show you a statement without you knowing how I dug up that statement, don't you think it will provide more room for more speculation. That is why I feel you should make the research yourself.

Since we've diverted this topic long enough, here's the info you wanted. It is my first posting with this username on Sept 25, 2007 - @topic,

Okay I am back, albeit with a new user name. No thanks to the Obatanlapitipiti of nairaland. I was banned for bringing attention to his hypocrisy on the topic about King David.

@Afam,

Good for you. Can you reproduce your first post where you specified that TayoD and Tayo-D are one and the same person?

If you are interested, you could easily find this yourself and so will anyone who cares to research into issues they are interested in knowing the facts about.

Maybe you need to invite your friends like 4Play/Iman and Davidylan/4Him,PTH etc to explain why they were hiding under different usernames until they were exposed.

That I chose to respond to you does not mean everyone will do the same. As for Davidlyan, everyone know he changes identities when he is banned and he never tries to hide his true self. As for 4play/Iman, I have no proof to assume it is the same person. The burden of proof is left with you the accuser. That is the way logic works.

@Afam,

Are you guilty of using multiple IDs on this forum?

No I'm not. I used TayoD up until the time that user name was banned by Seun becuase I told him he was a hypocrit. I created a new user name Tayo-D, a close resemblance to the intitial one and my first posting on using the new ID was to acknowledge that I am the self same person. I have never used TayoD since I began using the new user name, and both are with the same signature.

If you use a gun to rob people all the time and ask me to provide proof don't you think it will be difficult to do so even though I am on the side of truth?

Are you saying you have no proof? So quit making accusations without proof. this forum is for those who make their points while giving reasons for that stand. No one learns from people who make a point without providing the backgorund and the information that led to that position. And by the way, armed robbers have been knwon to be prosecuted in court by those who fell victims to them.

@Afam,

You want proof that some of you have been using multiple identities or proof that people that do so are not criminally minded?

Perhaps you will do everyone  aworld of good if you provide both.

You must be kidding me if the former is what you are referring to because the facts are there for all to see.

If it is so glaring, it shouldn't be any bother for you to provide the proofs then.

Afam,

Why would someone continue to use and switch identities online if the person is not criminally minded?

Do you have proofs for this accusation? It will be nice if you can offer more than unsubstantiated claims. This accusations are getting so repetitive and not in good taste. let's all try and grow up a little bit.

@topic,

Yesterday, Mr. McConnell struck a different tone. "Declared uranium enrichment efforts, which will enable the production of fissile material, continue. This is the most difficult challenge in nuclear production. Iran's efforts to perfect ballistic missiles that can reach North Africa and Europe also continue."

As per the emboldened, please see bbc's report of yesterday - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7230396.stm

Russia suspicious over Iran test 

Russia thinks the launch of an Iranian rocket into space raises suspicion over the true aim of its nuclear programme, a foreign ministry official has said.
"Long-range missiles are one of the components of a [nuclear] weapons system," Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Losyukov told Interfax.

Therefore Monday's test launch of Iran's Explorer-1 space rocket was "of course, a cause for concern", he said.

Iran insists its nuclear programme is purely for peaceful energy production.

Correspondents say the statement by Mr Losyukov appeared to indicate that Moscow increasingly shares Western concerns about Tehran's nuclear course.

"It increases suspicion of Iran regarding its possible desire to create a nuclear weapon," he was quoted as saying.

Iran said the rocket which was test-fired would be used to launch research satellites.

The US State Department said the launch was "troubling", as it was an example of the same technology behind long-range ballistic missiles.

In the past, Russia has been more sceptical than some Western powers about Iran's missile capability, saying it would take a long time to build long-range missiles.

@Therationa,

Have you ever heard of something called revelation? Apostle Paul wasn't with among the 12 Disciples and yet he described what happened at the last Supper to the finest detail.

@olabowale,

My dear, every important thing in Christianity is 'Imaginary.' For example, Trinity! This is imaginary, because you do not have it in the Bible! You can prove it to us, if you can. However, copying truth from website is like copying information from Book. So my friend I ask you to produce the word Trinity from your Bible! If you can not, you have to scrap it. Please explain Mark 12 Verse 29. If you present a good and honest argument, we will reason with you. Otherwise, we will not listen to you and we will not follow you.

Like a dog, you've started to chase your tail again. You will soon wear yourself out. Maybe you should start by showing us where Mohammed is refered to as the Holy Spirit from your Quran as you have implied he is called in the Bible.

@Alphazee,

It is obvious you are not after any answers, but out to continue with the unprofitable islamic pastime of looking for validation of the Quran by invalidating the Bible. Persoanlly, I have provided asnwers to some of the questions listed above on nairaland. If you are really looking for answers, search for keywords here on nairaland and read what you discover. Present what isn't celar to you and you can receive clarifications afterward.

And by the way, plagiarizing is not in good taste. That Mohammed indulged in it does not mean you should do the same. Please reference the sources of your information, so we can at least preted we are in discussion with intellectually capable people.

@teekay27,

Tayo-D Feet Washing and Anointing Oil is biblical. Everything we do in Winners Chapel is biblical, so passing judgement on God-ordained ministries like ours, it is dangerous. Miriam despised her brother Moses and became leprous, so mind what u say about the prophet of God. You can't doubt the proofs of God's Acts in Canaanland. Check John 13:4 - 10 for feet washing,

See, you have gone overboard with this. Are you trying to frighten me by quoting the issue of Maariam and Moses? Under what Testament do you think you live in? You do a great diservice to your cause when you talk like this. Someone was saying earlier that the Bishop will curse some peopl, and I can't but wonder if the person said that out of ignorance or if the Bishop really practice cursing as a way of life. What does your NT say about cursing your enemy? To whom belongs a recompense to the wicked? What did Jesus tell his disciples who wanted to call down fire from heaven on those who oppose them? You need to move into the NT and stop living by the old.

As for washing of feet and drinking of oil, you can never find it a s a doctrine in the Bible. A doctrine must be built on a line upon line, precept upon precept. Do us a favour and kindly show us by walking us through the Bible, how feet washing should become a doctrine, same for drinking of oil.

I'll tell you what doctrines can be built from that passage in John 13. The doctrines include humility, servitude and forgiveness of sins. these can be gleaned from that passage while finding a lot of other passages that teach those same principles. You cannot do same for feet washing.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bishop and I am a fan who appreciates the gift of god upon his life. However in these two matters, I believe he got it wrong. The only ritual we should have in the NT today is the Lord's table.

@Logical,

I have read this argument raised again and again, what standard are we using to judge his marriage to a 9 year old, 1000+ years ago?

The same standard we use to judge right and wrong since time immemorial. Are we using a different standard to judge stealing today as we did 2000 years ago? The truth is right and wrong has never changed, and the human conscience is still a fairly good arbiter to discern both right and wrong. No where do we find in the Bible, which predates the time of Mohammed that a six year old is wedded to a filthy old man who can't control is libido.

And your argument does Islam no good at all. Is Mohammed supposed to live by God's standard? Is God's standard subject to abrogation based on societal evolution? If God frowns on a 50 year old man marrying a 6 year old girl today, you can be sure that He felt the same way 2,000 years ago becuase He does not change. His words are not subject to abrogation just as His standards are not based on societal evolution. He wont decree a man to marry no more than 4 wives and yet indulge his so-called prophet to marry 22, even though this prophet is supposed to lead by example. All thes only expose the fraud of Mohammed who is not just the supposed channel of God's voice, but the author of the very words allegedly revealed to him (never mind that majority were plagiarised). Talk about cunny man!

@4HIM,

I don't hate Oyedepo like you rightly pointed out, i used to attend that church when i had the chance back home . . . sometimes i just think that there are some things that are not biblically sound that we all tend to swallow simply because "Daddy GO" said it without studying it ourselves. That being said, i simply took the part that was a blessing to me and left the rest out.

The church is not 100% perfect . . . God is going to perfect us at His appointed time but here a little there a little until the whole leaven is lumped. The enemy is going to sow tares at this end time . . . and sadly our churches are churning out "christians" who remain faithful only as long as their bank balance is in the positive.

In this you are right. I do not agree with some of his doctrines like feet washing and the drinking of oil. But I believe in my heart that those errors are with a sincere heart. We are not perfect, but we are walking, and not working towards it.

@4HIM,

Daddy Tayo-D, i am digesting your last post . . . you do have a point i must concede.

that's my boy .

Anyway, while some have accused you of several things on this topic, I know you really don't have hatred in your heart, though I wonder what's gwan with your head sometimes . My advise is to prayerfully consider this matter. I believe it is the devil's work to keep this truth away from the Church. The Bible is clear that when you have abundance, you will be able to participate in every good work.

That being said, I am not unaware of the excesses in the Body of Christ regarding this isue. Many simply do not teach the whole counsel regarding money, and run off with just some light that they have without balancing the whole message. The bottom line is that godliness with contentment is great gain. contentment on the other hand is not a factor of riches or poverty, but of the heart.

I pray the Lord continually help us all to not just do the right thing, but do it right to the praise and glory of His name.

And let me add that before you consult that person, please do this study yourself lest someone feeds you with their own doctrines based on prejudice.

@4HIM,

Will you stop that already? I just showed you a gospel truth that you did not know until 5 minutes ago, and now you want to  lecture me or others about it. Go meditate on it first and let it chnage your life before you attempt to teach it. What you are saying now is nothing but head knowledge. My talking about this is borne out of practice and testimony of what difference that truth has made.

Look at the two phrases in highlights . . . the bible says to GIVE according as YOU PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART . . . not according to the next seed offering your pastor demands. .

Even when you are asked to sow, it must be borne out of willingness, which is why Paul said the disciples should put aside every sunday as God has prospered each person. Have you read that before in scripture?

It says again NOT OUT OF NECESSITY . . . when you give SIMPLY because you are expecting to reap "financial reward" you defeat the purpose of giving as explained in verse 7.

This scrpture does not in anyway connote what you are saying. This is simply saying don't give just to save face or grudginly, it must be done out of a willing heart. That is the sacrifice God accepts.

People are encouraged to give out of their needs, though willingly. The widow's mite clearly comes to mind . have you ever read 2 Cor. 8:2 - How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

You should never give without expecting in return because you not only short-change yourself, but you make the word of non-effect. Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Phillipians 4:15 -Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. That we are communicating with God about giving and receiving and being blessed thereby is not our fault.

You asked before what's been happening to the seed of those Christians who gave with nothing to show for it. May I ask you to do that study yourself and get back to me in a while about your findings. I shouldn't be spoon-feeding you. You are supposed to study to be approved.

@4HIM,

good point uncle Tayo

Who is your uncle? If anything, call me your daddy cause I have a son by your name.

. . . my next question . . .  what did that verse mean by "fruits of righteousness"?

The fruits of your righteousness in that context is the result of what you did with your seed (the money in this case). Paul clarified it subsequently, but here is another translation to make it cleare. I'll embolden the fruits of your righteousness

9:10 And God, who supplies seed for the sower and bread to eat, will also supply you with all the seed you need and will make it grow and produce a rich harvest from your generosity.
9:11 He will always make you rich enough to be generous at all times, so that many will thank God for your gifts which they receive from us.  
9:12 For this service you perform not only meets the needs of God's people, but also produces an outpouring of gratitude to God.  
9:13 And because of the proof which this service of yours brings, many will give glory to God for your loyalty to the gospel of Christ, which you profess, and for your generosity in sharing with them and everyone else.  
9:14 And so with deep affection they will pray for you because of the extraordinary grace God has shown you.  
9:15 Let us thank God for his priceless gift!   I assume the passage explains itself.

It is not just enough to quote a verse that contains the words "seeds", "sow" and then think that you can twist it in the same fashion that the WOFM does.

My guy, this passage's reference to seed is clearly taking about money, kudi, owo, cash, ego, mammon or whatever you choose to call it. Besides, didn't jesus say until you understand the parable of the sower you could never grasp anything of God's word?

@4Him,

This concept of financial seed sowing . . . please where is it in your bible?

thanks for asking.

2 Corinthians 9:6-15 6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; 13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; 14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. Can you see it now or you still need to be spoon fed with basic knowledge of God's word.

@4Him,

have just 1 question sir, is this an example of "fulfilling the scriptures" and "giving to the poor"? What then is the purpose of the church . . . doing "God's will" by giving education only to the rich at the expense of the gullible?

It is hard to comment on this situation because what you have presented is not the whole facts, besides, who told you the story isn't made up.

Now let me tell you the truth. What the poor need is not money but the Gospel. This is why jesus said he came to preach the Gospel to the poor. If Jesus felt what is lacking in their situation is primarily money, he would have provided them money each time he meets the poor. Giving a poor man money is like giving a hungry man fish, but giving him the gospel is like teaching him how to fish.

Oyedepo, copeland and others are not where they are today because someone gave them money, rather it is becuase of the Gospel. it is what they know that made the difference that they are teaching people everyday so others can become like them.

As to the guy in question, I think it is wrong for you to labour in church with the aim that you must benefit from what yuo did. The only time the Bible expects anyone to expect a fianancial reward from the church is if that person is involved in preaching the word in the church. To others, what you have provided must be considered as a seed, and a seed dies to the person who sows it. The harvest is between you and God who is able to resurrest that seed and give it a body according to the person's faith. I've sown a lot into my church, both back in naija and here, but my financial blessings have never come from the Church, but from other means; even though I know those blessings are linked to what I did in church.

@4HIM,

The Pharisees also gave to the poor . . . what was Christ's assessment of them? Is giving to the poor a sign of godliness?

So now you are liking them to the Pharisees? Your grouse before was that they do not take care of the poor. Now that you cannot prove that to be true, you resort to another means. You just must have something to condemn. Do us a favour, kindly highlight what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees and how it applies to these people.

CU an example of "propagating the gospel"? How, please explain.
What really is "God's will"? To build schools, amass real estate, enter the guiness book of records all in the name of "propagating the gospel"?

What is your understanding of propagating the gospel? Standing in the marklket place like a mad man and screaming at the top of your lungs? Propagating the gospel is more than that. These kids are effectively being turned to disciples through that institution. They receive spiritual, physical and social skills under the same umbrella. I know this has changed the life of someone I know personally, and if it is only for his sake that CU is built, it is worth it. How much is CU worth compared to the human soul?!

Sir do you call pointing out the truth "persecution"? when Paul sharply reprimanded Peter for declaring that it was unclean to eat with the gentiles did Peter go sob in a corner crying about "persecution"?

Firstly, you are not pointing out anything, but condemning people. Paul corrected Peter and not condemn him. Secondly, your argument as far as I can see lacks any basis, scriptural or otherwise. As Christians, we are to influence every aspect of our social life including academia.

How are these people "fulfilling the scriptures"? Please sir show me the scriptures these people are fulfilling and i will keep quiet.

I told you to go find out how this man began, and know his testimony. Maybe you will have a rethink if you know him a little more. I don't know him personally, but my listening to one of his tapes while on campus, turned my life around totally.

Indeed material blessings are part of God's riches but sir look again at the examples you mention . . . what was most important to them? The cattle, the houses, the camels, their gold and silver or the dedication of their hearts to God?

Again you are commiting the same error I mentioned before. Do you know this man's heart? Do you know what He's given up for his faith? Do you have an idea the sacrifices he's made in secret? Why condemn without information?

Sir you are misconstruing the issue . . . it is not that "wealth" is of the devil but the OVER-EMPHASIS on wealth as a sign of "God's blessings". We have the world's largest christian congregation every sunday . . . and YET we are poorer and more corrupt than Communist China!!

Wealth is a blessing from God. Even communist China's financial blessing is from God. Can you please provide us a list of ALL the mesages preached at canaanland for the past one year. We need to look at them and find out if indeed there has been too much emphasis on material wealth. Failure to provide us with this data only confirms that your argument is based solely on speculation.

Our political thieves have the front rows in our "ministeries" . . . the sons of our so-called "men of Gawd" are busy in foreign countries living lavish lives that do not glorify the God their parents claim to worship.
thousands come to church no longer to seek the face of the Lord but to seek His hands for "breakthroughs", miracles, signs and wonders!

That Samuel's son's were desecrating the temple did not make Samuel less a Man of God. Each man will give his own individual account to God, and not through their Pastors.

@4Him,

this discussion has progresseed too far that I cannot possibly attend to all the issues raised with my time limitations. However, let me point out some salient points which I believe you should really give attention to.

1. Your argument is based on discernment of the heart of those you are accusing. With that, you have entered into the realm that is exclusively preserved for God. You make categorical statement that cannot and should never come out unless backed up with facts and figures which you have certainbly not provided. Accusing those who are rich of self-agrandisement when you do not know their hearts is sickening. You declare that they are not doing enough for the poor and I cannot but ask you if you know how much they give to the poor on a regular basis. Failur to present such facts make you appear unserious.

2. This argument reminds me of what Jesus said in Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. We can clearly see that deprivation or otherwise is not the mark of godliness. Relative to Jesus, John the baptist denied himself but this never kept people from criticising both of them. So you see, it isn't the lack or abundance that matters but in doing God's will. The question I need you to answer is this: Are these people using the tools of money and wealth that God has blessed them with to propagate the Gospel or just for their persoal consumption?

3. You also need to clarify if prosperity include fianacial and material increase. I briefly read your argument with someone saying prosperity is not measured in material count. While this is not so for prosperity in the general sense, it is so for prosperity in the material sense. Go back to Abraham, Job, David, Solomon etc and see if God didn't put a count on their material blessings as a means of declaring how much He has blessed them. Need example in the NT? Here it is: Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Please how do you read this passage? Jesus said in this lifetime we will receive houses and lands if we gave them up for Him. And yes, there is the persecution that comes with it. By this, I am not surprised by your persecution of these people who are fulfilling the scriptures by receiving from God more of what they gave up, while you are fulfilling scripture also by being the persecutor.

4. And please, you are yet to make it clear whether riches are from God or the devil and wether prosperity (including material) is part of the blessings we have in our covenant.

@topic,

Q. Who owns the oil in Niger Delta

A. Niger Delta.

Q. Who owns Niger Delta

A. Nigeria.

If the above is the case, we can safely conclude then that Nigeria owns the oil. QED

@4Him,

No, he didnt expect us to make riches the prime focus of our lives either. I ask a simple question again oga, how did brother Paul occupy till he died? By building Jerusalemland?

They occupied by following God's leading for their lives. Each person's role and work is different but the end produc is to preach Christ, and Him crucified. If you can prove that this is lacking in Canaanland, then you will win me over.

By this analogy we can safely assume that apostle Peter, brother Paul, James, Stephen, the sons of Zebedee e.t.c. were all self-centered people . . . not even a school, restaurant or bank for the poor Jews? such a shame.

The Apostles catered to the needs of the poor in their midst. Remeber Stephen and the other deacons? They did what they know best to do in order to continue the work of the ministry. It's no different today.

Jesus had to borrow a colt to ride to Jerusalem . . . obviously He was not following God's word.

The important thing is that Jesus had the resources to pursue His ministry whenver he needed to. If He were to live in our day and the Bible had prophesied that He would enter New York in a limousine, He would have had that limousine one way or the other, even if He has to go rent from Enterprise !

Men, I'll continue gist later. Madam calleth.

@4Him,

Of course by tithes and offerings . . . certainly Christ was not expecting them to force the people to pay taxes and levies (also known as tithes and offerings) to build schools for the rich.
Imagine if Christ had asked all those he healed and delivered to bring their tithes and offerings . . . imagine if Christ had asked Zaccheus to pay his tithes to Him . . . He would not have needed to borrow a colt . . . he would have ridden to Jerusalem in a convoy of the finest Horses of Rome.

You seem to have a problem with catering to the rich. My guy, riches are God's blessings. What you do not understand is that abundance of money provides a good tool for God's work. Christ rode on a donkey not becuase He could not ride on a horse, but so that scriptures can be fulfilled. In His death, he was buried in a rich man's tomb just so scriptures can be fulfilled. I wish any one can point me to a place in scripture where Jesus needs anything and He lacked the necessary resources to meeet such a need. Money is a resource. Please read your Bible and you'll find out that Jesus usually travels in a convoy -Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. The purpose for all the boats is to do ministry. Whether, it is boats, planes, cars or rail, all available means must be used to make God's Word available and heard on every voice. Guess the common denominator of all these - money.

I may not have been shipwrecked before but i refuse to be a partaker of the extortion that goes on today in the name of Christ.

Why do you expect these people to be shipwrecked when you are yet to venture out into the sea? In a way, isn't there name and character being grounded ashore through these unsubstantiated calims of yours? You may call it extortion, but Jesu never asked the widow to take back her mite, neither did Elijah have the widow keep the flour for herself and her child.

The apostles were made spectacles to the whole world NOT for how much was in their bank accounts or how grand their churches were (they even hd to borrow private homes to preach) or the size of their horses and ships but for the fearlessness with which they shared the word of Christ and their willingness to die for their faith . . . how many of our church leaders can boast of same today?

You again miss the point. When Paul talked about the Apostles being made spectacles, he said the oppposite to those who have come to believe in Christ through them. You will find the same boldness in people today. Perhaps you should do a little research on the Bishop and someone like Idahosa so you'll know their testimony. You ridicule their successe now while failing to recognize their days of humble beginnings. Of them the scriptures testify "that their latter end shall be greatly increased".

How has he fulfilled this need? Igbinedion, Atiku, Obj also have private schools . . . were they also borne out of love to meet a gaping need in society?

Do the others run the school per Bible standards? That's the difference. Your argument is like telling me not to build a house because the Gospel has not profited from unbelievers who own houses.

And how many members of Winners chapel can afford to attend CU?

Get over it. The schoold is not meant for everyone just as the church (as in the denomination or local assembly) isn't meant for everyone. For all you know, God could spend that billions of dollars so He could save the life of one person. Billy Graham was the only one who got saved after a series of revival meetings. Guess how many God saved through that one man.