₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
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Yes every Trinitarian believes Jesus is Jehovah but certainly none of them except you will say that Jehovah is not the God of the OT.

I am not making anything personal, I am just pointing out how strange and fringe your view is and the fact that it is not just fringe, it is absurd and weird and no one else would countenance it.

Are you listening to me? I said that Jehovah (Jesus Christ) is the God of the Old Testament. Do not call my claims absurd because that is what the bible teaches.

maasoap:
What nukes? You even think nukes are meant to be used, lol. Nukes are for deterrent, once you have it, no country will ever try of invading you.
Who wants invade North Korea? NATO and Europe are staying away from Russia. Why?


What were they looking for?
And you think USA needs 200 billion dollars just to level Iran because of imaginary nuclear weapon as if 90 million Iranians are nothing but trash that doesn't count?

So let's make this very simple. You are the strongest country in the world. Would you allow your enemy to build a weapon that can wipe you out? Would you want to find out if it is for war or for deterrence? To me, it would be an irresponsible choice if you allow it, but that's just me. The more countries allowed to build nuclear weapons, the greater the possibility of their being used.
Lastly, Iran is willing to destroy the global economy. I see no reason why they would not blast the world and let everything fall to pieces if they can.

DeepSight:
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I am sure you are the only Christian the world that says that God the Father is not Jehovah of the Old Testament

Now we are making this personal. But that's not even the point; you clearly don't know everything about Christianity, so calm down with your claims. Catholics, for example, believe Jesus is Jehovah, but not in the same sense as I explained. Again, it's just empty pride to claim to know what every Christian believes.

zinaunreal:
Balanced to fit into your sentiments. I listen to news as it happens on the ground not your cooked and dump new

Ok, let's not do my news is better than yours. So tell me, what have I missed from your side? Where am I getting it wrong? Which of my assertions so far are false?

DeepSight:
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You are not getting it. So you really think an Iranian victory would only be by conquering the USA nd Israel and colonizing them or wiping them out? You are funny.

I never said so. But to claim that Iran is winning now is comedy. We see the side losing its generals and losing on all fronts. The only thing Iran has for now is the Strait of Hormuz. The moment they lose control of that, nothing would remain, and I can bet with you that they would soon lose that.

DeepSight:
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Your doctrine that the father is NOT Jehovah is alien to Christianity and I am sure almost NO other Christian in the world will agree with you on that.

I did not point to the quran, I used the same bible you use. I Am the IAm is in your bible and every other verse I quoted, and I will still quote. I am not here to defend Christianity as that would be impossible, that's defending 100s of different religions, but I am here to look at the bible objectively with you.

frankson1:
Trump is running around and begging other countries for help to fight Iran.

Trump has been trying to negotiate with the Iranian authority, the same negotiation he turned down.

Yes, that's the wise thing to do, build a coalition. Why do it alone if you can get more help?
And yes, Trump has been trying to negotiate the surrender of the Iranian government, but his big challenge is that there is no one to negotiate with. They are mostly dead.

DeepSight:
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So you are saying that God the father is not the God of the Old Testament?

God the Father is always going to be God. I am saying that the Jehovah of the Old Testament is the same person we know as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. One doesn't have to lose His position for the other to be divine. Let me put it this way: The Father sent Jehovah to the prophets of old. And that is why all the titles of Jehovah in the Old Testament belong to Jesus Christ.
Example: In the Old Testament, we learn that there is no Savior but Jehovah; in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the only Savior.

DeepSight:
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You guys are missing the point. In analyzing who is doing better, you have to consider their strength. The USA and Israel are the overwhelmingly stronger side in every respect, militarily and economically. We are talking about the biggest economy and most advanced military and its proxy against a desert country under sanctions for half a century. So there is no comparison.

Therefore the mere survival is the Iranian regime alone is victory for Iran.
The mere fact that Iran can hold the world to ransom at the Strait is victory for Iran.

You have to understand the context.

What are you talking about? Are you praising the Iranian regime for surviving 21 days of war? Make it make sense. And you call hitting the global economy Iran's victory, that's a weird way of thinking. The so-called victory is causing them more enemies; it's damaging the economy of their big ally, China. Your understanding of victory means destroying civilization. That's scary.

ChopDeMoney:
Bro, let us stop being sympathetic to these white folks. They have mastered the game of making us (African) to aligned with them psychologically, emotionally without reciprocal gestures from them. We even prayed for them.

Iran has bad economy for more than 40yrs and still has good health care, education, infrastructure and modern warfare weapons than Western controlled African nations. A sanctioned country "on the verge of attaining nuclear status"..

I was a big fan of Trump. For a man who believes he is the only good person in the room. The attraction died.

The truth is both American and Israel has has suffered more in comparative costs in human and equipment wise as against projected outcomes which I believed they narrowed down to zero or insignificant.

Shame don catch them finish. They go burn over a trillion dollars in this war and still can't step a foot on Iranian soil.

And by the way I am not a Muslim

You started on a very bad note. Are you asking me to be sympathetic to Iranian folks?
You are praising the Iranian economy, so would you rather be in Iran or the US? Let's be honest.
You made the very false statement that both America and Israel have suffered more in comparative costs in human and equipment terms.
So, I want you to compare the American/Israel to the Iranian loss, and then we can discuss. List what you think each side has lost.

Again, they have control of the skies; that's why they have not stepped onto the soil. But let me ask, in a few weeks, if they step into the soil, would you withdraw these remarks?

DeepSight:
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And yet you are not me, are you?


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My challenge is you saying that Jesus and NOT the father is Jehovah of the Old Testament!
Not the father ? ? ? ?
Oh really?

Yes, I AM (Jesus Christ) is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, not His Father. Let's do one verse, and you will explain.
Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

You see clearly that the Almighty and Jehovah are 2 difrent people. Yes, many times, especially in the Old Testament, the 2 persons/names are used interchangeably but this is the verse that separates the 2

frankson1:
Have equipment worth several millions or even billions been destroyed by Iran or not. The US thought it was going to be like Venezuela.

I hope you're aware that sanctions has been lifted on their oil.

Make una dey whine una selves

How much do you think the Iranian weapons and equipment that have been destroyed cost? Iran's Air defence alone costs more than 10 billion dollars. Please research the cost of complete S3 defence systems.

DeepSight:
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I am weary of doing so: even if i bring a verse where Jesus says "I am not God" you will not agree.

Of course, if Jesus Christ claims He is not God, we can't force Him to be God. But you read His claim, He is I Am.

zinaunreal:
Like I said your information is coming from the western outlet that propergates war mongering and can't be taken seriously

Not really, I get info from everywhere. Al Jazeera is very far from Western. Unlike you, I don't only listen to propaganda. Again, the Western news is much more balanced. If you listened to MSMBC, an American news outlet, you would believe the US is losing to Iran.

DeepSight:
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I remember very well - you only picked a few verses to give marginal attention to and then said that that should suffice to explain the rest or something like that. 20 solid verses and that was the lazy response you gave, you didnt address them all, only a few, and only marginally.


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I gave you twenty that showed that explicitly.


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Then he must have multiple personality disorder as the nature of Jesus and his teachings radically differ from those of blood thirsty and violent Yahweh of the Old Testament.

None of the 20 shows in any way that Jesus Christ is not God. Anyone could copy and paste verses; that's no big deal.
Let's do this, just present any one of your 20 verses and explain how it disproves the divinity of Christ.

tiwiex:
Add the damane to the global economy. How much are you buying petrol now? Every Country in the world.

Ok, you are praising Iran for destroying your global economy and making everyone, including themselves, poorer? This is a funny line of argument. How is destroying the global economy and making Nigerians and even Iranian supporters worldwide a win for Iran? Please, senior man, explain this to me?

zinaunreal:
This war is making Iran rich. You do not have true data of irans loses. Oil tanker companies are paying taxes to iran. Youre here talking fake loses. Who doesn't lose in war. You analysis is directly from trumps speech and you expect me to take you seriously . Please....

Anyone who thinks that nature is making money from being air bombed needs to think again. Iran has even lost its central bank, in case you don't know. Soldiers have not been paid in at least 2 months. If Iran is as rich as you say, how come soldiers are not getting paid? Maybe they are investing the money for them.

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You and I both have the human nature too. And we both have names.
Thats the point, Jesus Christ and His Father both have the God nature and still have their different names. Just like you and I both have human nature, too. And we both have names


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Please this is an absolutely incongruous statement maybe you meant to say something else or clarify it.
But you claim to have read the bible 17 times, and you still don't know that the I AM of the Old Testament is Christ? Maybe you should read it one more time

maasoap:
That should surprise any right thinking individual. It should scare American society too. An excursion is turning out to be a great disastrous outing

You mean 200 billion is too much to stop your enemy from acquiring nukes? A 20% rise in the military budget is too much? I don't agree with you, sir. Do you know how many American servicemen died in Iraq and Afghanistan, all thanks to Iranian-backed militia? 200 billion is not a crazy price for their lives.
I understand that as a Nigerian, where your life is meaningless to your government, this could be a great deal.

DeepSight:
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This is a very bad analogy as being human refers to our nature not our identity. So the fact that you and I are human does not mean that you are me or I am you. In the context you have used the analogy, at best it would mean that Jesus is also a divine being and not that he is God the Father.

God is not Identity, God has His name.. Yes, Jesus Christ has a Father who has a different Identity from Him but the bible teaches us that they both have the God nature. So God clearly is not a name of a person. Our God has a name.
My point is tha Jesus Christ not His Father is the Jehovah of the old testament according to the bible.

zinaunreal:
The worse mistake is when they put boots on the ground. We will know who is fighting the war. Humans or money. No be by 200 billion

You have no point here. You know nothing about the state or readiness of the Iranian army. You are not a war expert. Don't just be making unwise statements on nairaland.

Wait and let's see, then we can talk about it.

In a week or 2 from now, after the battles have been fought, we can then tell who is winning.
But as of today,
Iran has hit some US bases
13 American have died
On the other hand thousands of Iranians have died.
Hundreds of Iranian military bases in Iran have been destroyed.
The entire air defence is destroyed
The entire navy and air force is gone.
Top leaders and generals gone

So, who is winning.

Even on the economic front, the Iranian currency is toilet paper.
Iran is suffering some of the worst inflation ever.

KingAzubuike:
One thing is very very certain.

US and Israel really underestimated Iran. Before they could realise Iran was no pushover, it was already too late.

Now trump is asking the US congress for another $200 billion to continue the war.

$200 billion is about 20% of the defence budget. On the other hand, Iran is losing its entire economy because it chooses to remain stubborn.
Note: $800m In Damages is so much money, but it is only about 0.1% of the US defense budget.

If we are to quantify the damage done in Tehran alone by the US bombing, how many billions do you think it will cost?

TruthU87:
Day 21 of Operation Epic Failure

- Russian oil unsanctioned
- Iranian oil unsanctioned
- Ships paying Iran $2M for Hormuz passage
- $1T gone from stock market
- F35 proven useless
- American bases under constant attack
- Replaced Khamenei with Khamenei

Iran's economy finished
Iran's navy and air force are history
The entire country of Iran is under constant attack
Iran's drones and missiles are being reduced every day
Iran's currency is toilet paper.
One active and vibrant Khamenei has been replaced with a Khamenei who, at best, is in eternal hiding in his own country.

The question: Would you rather be the US or Iran

So, to decide whether Jesus Christ is God, we would use the Bible for obvious reasons.
Let's begin with Christ telling you that He is God.

John 8:58
Before Abraham was, I am.

Now, many have argued that this means something different in the original Greek text, but because I am not a Greek expert, I used AI to verify. I would advise you to do the same unless you understand the language.

Gemini
In Greek, eimi usually needs a "predicate"—it’s a bridge word (e.g., "I am the door". In this verse, however, it is used absolutely, meaning there is no noun following it.

Syntax: When egō eimi stands alone, the focus shifts from what the person is to the fact that they exist.

Intertextual Link: The Bible's own Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) uses this exact absolute phrase, egō eimi, in Isaiah 43:10 and Exodus 3:14 to translate the Hebrew name for God. By using this specific Greek phrasing, the speaker is using the "language of existence" found in the ancient texts they were debating.

Grok
Grammatical Breakdown (Purely from Koine Greek Usage)

πρὶν ("before" is a temporal adverb/conjunction introducing a subordinate clause that sets a point in past time.
Ἀβραὰμ = Abraham (proper name).
γενέσθαι is the aorist infinitive of γίνομαι (ginomai), which means "to become," "to come into existence," "to be born," or "to happen/arise." The aorist tense here emphasizes the moment or point of coming into being (ingressively: the entry into existence). So "before Abraham came to be / was born / came into existence."
ἐγὼ = emphatic "I" (first-person singular pronoun; the pronoun is explicit here, which can add emphasis in Greek since the verb already indicates person).
εἰμί = first-person singular present indicative of εἰμί (eimi), the verb "to be." In the present tense, it means "I am," "I exist," or "I am [in a state of being]." It is a stative verb describing existence or identity, not an action.

ChatGPt
Key Linguistic Observation

There is a clear contrast in verb forms:

γενέσθαι (genesthai) → past event (Abraham came into existence)
εἰμι (eimi) → present tense (I am)

👉 So the sentence contrasts:

Abraham → came into being (at a point in time)
“I” → am (ongoing existence, not tied to a beginning in this sentence)
🧠 What This Means Purely Linguistically

Without adding theology:

The speaker is placing himself before Abraham in time
But instead of saying “I was” (ἤμην / ēn), the text uses:
👉 “I am” (present tense)

This creates an unusual grammatical effect in Greek:

It breaks normal tense expectations
It suggests a state of existence that is not described as beginning or ending


My summary

If Jesus called Himself God, then we can agree that the correct Christian position is that Jesus Christ is God. Again, we know that His Father is also God, and that's not a problem because even as humans, we expect the son of a human to be human, so why would anyone expect the Son of God and heir of His divine nature not to be God?

DeepSight:
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I once gave you [b]twenty [/b]clear verses showing clearly that Jesus is NOT God, but you basically ignored them.
I was not surprised because it is standard and normal for people of faith to ignore their own scripture once it is against whatever they already believe. Both Christians and Muslims do this on the regular. I have seen it too often.

You seen yo have forgotten, I did not ignore them, I explained them and gave you verses to increase your understanding. By the way no verse in the bible shows that Jesus Christ is not God.

Did the bible call Jesus Christ God? Yes
Did the bible ever say or imply that Jesus Christ is not God? No

But let me start strong, Jesus Christ is clearly the Jehovah of the old testament

helinues:
Some of the opposition supporters do not even want the insecurity to stop and they are being vindicated.

That's how petty some of them are

Oga the problem is not with the opposition but with the present government.
I would even argue that it's the present government that want insecurity to continue because they are doing nothing to prevent it.

But then, I agree with Tinubu that security should be everyone's responsibility I just don't think he is serious about that
If he is, we should have state police by now and he should allow citizens arm and defend themselves against bandits and herdsmen.

Tinubu is the problem here not the opposition or their supporters.

DeepSight:
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I dont understand how this answers me. Are you now agreeing with me or what?

Here is a simplified summary to explain God's Justice and mercy.
https://youtube.com/shorts/otRbtbRX0Eg?si=OfU_128NrDYxlUeT

This below might set the ball rolling for our next topic
https://youtube.com/shorts/OhAe-3cGKsk?si=2LK3kot9X7Lg4KoL

DeepSight:
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I dont understand how this answers me. Are you now agreeing with me or what?

I gree 100% that we reap what we sow and that the price of sin must be paid. But then I add one small detail, Christ paid the price.
This makes repentance possible.
The difference between you and me is that you accept some parts of the scripture and reject others so you are always left with half of the story. I have it in full

DeepSight:
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How do you know this?


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I have said it repeatedly: yes justice is that a crime must be paid for: by the criminal.

PS: Why are you not quoting me but just putting in bold what I write?

But for the above, you already offered the best verse, whatever you sow, you shall reap

Repentance is not a problem, it is simply not tied to the ritual murder of anyone.
That in itself is an absurd and barbaric concept.
Again your opinion and no one has any good reason to believe you. You are not a prophet, God doesn't speak to you and you have zero spiritual authority. So in this case, your opinion is not important. You can call God's plan absurd and barbaric if that is how you feel but you haven't presented any evidence to prove your point.

Haba. That you will only be forgiven when one [b]innocent man is murdered in a gruesome torturous manner and you buy into it? Think about it for heavens sake, stop and think! What sort of antediluvian caveman ritualistic teaching is that? ? ? ?
If the wages of sin is death then there is no escaping. For the demands of justice, it must be fulfilled. Is it painful, scary and maybe unbelievable to you but that's the clear definition of justice, every crime must be paid for before forgiveness is granted. Using words like antediluvian caveman ritualistic only express your disgust and opinion, still you don't seem to be able to clearly explain what wrong with it.

DeepSight:
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The Bible itself preaches Karma -

Galatians 6:7–8: "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

2 Corinthians 9:6: "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously."

Matthew 7:1–2: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Luke 6:38: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Obadiah 1:15: "As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head."

Proverbs 22:8: "Whoever sows injustice reaps calamity, and the rod they wield in fury will be broken."

Proverbs 26:27: "Whoever digs a pit will fall into it; if someone rolls a stone, it will roll back on them."

Job 4:8: "As I have observed, those who plow evil and those who sow trouble reap it."

Thus you can see that the teaching of Karma is spread all over scripture.

Tctrills you should note all the above scripture which should tell you that there is nothing like the propitiatory sacrifice for sins.

None of these verses say what you want them to say. These verses teach personal responsibility but that did not teach that forgiveness is impossible.
Repentance is an aspect of personal responsibility. I understand you don't believe in repentance that is abundantly taught in the bible

1. Repentance does not require a ritual in which someone is killed first.
Your opinion, you are not God to determine the terms of repentance.

2. It is of course unjust against Jesus, that is assuming it is true which it is certainly not, it is a myth.
Explain how. Remember, He chose to do it and He was rewarded for doing it. So please explain how. If I have a son, I give him a task, he fails to do it but later comes and pleads and ask for forgiveness. I forgive him but insists he completes the task. His elder brother decides to help him, and I agree, please explain how this makes me unjust.

3. The analogy of a phone is bad because it is a not a living thing. We understand that the death referred to was the death of living things.
But the verse never expressly mention living things just as it did not mention animals or plants so the analogy remains perfect. It's you who assumes it has to be living things and not phones. Also does this also involve plants. Before sin entered the world, if Adam ate a maize, will the grains remain alive in his body?

4. I see that you are determined to be unreasonable, so let us leave these points. The other repugnant aspects of Christian teaching are -
If course, what else would you say? Anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. No problem, make we leave that one.

- The doctrine of the Trinity which is blasphemous

- The teaching of eternal hell fire which is barbaric

- The ritual of communion which is negatively pagan in essence, to the extent that it is said to be a representation of eating blood flesh and drinking blood

- The teaching that you must love Jesus more than you love your parents

- The doctrine of inherited sin, which casts blame on the innocent

Let us continue with these, bearing in mind that the worst is the one already discussed: namely the idea that the murder of a man acquits you of your sins.

Pick any, let's do it one at a time. But then, don't call me unreasonable because you have run out of answers