Stilloracle: Striking Moscow doesn't make them butchers. There are power installations in Moscow, Pipelines, sea ports etc. This is a war
Unfortunately The first two years of the war, Biden tied Ukrainian hands to their back. They say, NATO weapons must not be used inside Russia because of their fear of escalation
Not withstanding, Ukraine has hit Moscow several times
1. March 11, 2025: Ukraine launched its largest long-range drone assault on Moscow, targeting an oil refinery supplying the capital and an oil facility in Orel region. Four international airports temporarily suspended operations.
May 5-7, 2025: Ukraine conducted drone strikes on Moscow for three consecutive days, forcing closure of most Moscow airports, including Vnukovo and Domodedovo, coinciding with Chinese President Xi Jinping’s visit.
June 7-8, 2025: Ukraine launched a massive drone attack involving nearly 500 drones and missiles targeting Moscow and other regions. Russian air defenses intercepted most, but some strikes caused fires and injuries near Moscow and in the adjacent Tula region
JimRohn: Thank you again for your continued engagement. I value meaningful interfaith dialogue, particularly when it is rooted in logic, clarity, and mutual respect. That said, your response unfortunately does not advance the discussion meaningfully. Instead, it repeats previously addressed points while misrepresenting fundamental Islamic metaphysical concepts.
Let me clarify your missteps and respectfully show how you are, in fact, moving in circles and evading the original philosophical problem posed to your doctrine.
🔄 1. You Are Committing a Category Error by Equating Metaphysical Duality with Ontological Contradiction
You repeatedly invoke what you call a "duality" in Islamic beliefs regarding the soul and body, and claim this should justify belief in the Trinity. This is a false equivalence.
Let me explain the difference in precise philosophical terms:
In Islam, the body-soul distinction is a metaphysical duality, not a contradiction. The soul and body are not the same thing, and are not claimed to be so. Death separates the soul from the body; the soul continues to exist in the barzakh (intermediate realm). There is no contradiction in saying a person is dead in body and alive in soul.
In Christian Trinitarian theology, however, you are asserting that one and the same being (Jesus) is:
Fully God (omniscient, immortal, all-powerful) Fully man (ignorant, tempted, and mortal)
This creates an ontological contradiction — because these attributes are mutually exclusive within one single person. One cannot logically be both omniscient and ignorant, eternal and subject to death, within the same individual nature.
You are conflating metaphysical composition (body/soul) with a logical contradiction of essential attributes.
That is not parity. That is a category mistake.
You speak good English but you seem not to even understand by 1. The phrases Ontological and Metaphysical 2. I hope you meant to say that I don't know the difference between "Metaphysical Reality" and "Ontological Contradiction" and not that I dont know the difference between "Metaphysical Duality" and "Ontological Contradiction"
Secondly, Your explanation of the difference between Soul and body in Islam you gave is FALSE. In Islam Is the Soul of Moses TRUELY Moses in Islam or not? Is the Body of Moses TRUELY Moses in Islam or not?
Even though you don't believe in TRINITY of Man, Islam believes in the DUALITY of Man.
If you don't understand this basics, how can you understand the basics of the Trinity of Man or the Trinity of God.
JimRohn: 📌 2. You Still Have Not Answered the Core Question Let me remind you what the original challenge was — and still is:
> How do you logically reconcile Jesus being God while possessing attributes (ignorance, mortality, susceptibility to temptation) that contradict divine perfection?
Your reply ignores this contradiction and instead attempts to accuse Islam of its own alleged paradoxes — but this does not resolve the contradiction within your own theology. It merely shifts the topic.
This is a textbook case of a red herring fallacy. Whether or not you believe Islam has paradoxes, the question remains: Can your Christology stand up to the test of logical coherence?
So far, your answer is still absent.
In as much as you cannot respond to the CONTRADICTIONS that 1. Moses could be Dead YET Alive at the same time 2. Moses could be in the Grave on earth YET walking about in Paradise. 3. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated YET has a date of publication and a publisher
If you cannot answer these questions, your repeating your question is borne out of gross ignorance
JimRohn: 🧠 3. You Misrepresent Islamic Belief About the Prophets and the Soul You say: > “There is only one Moses — so how can he be both in the grave and in Paradise?”
This is a strawman. Islam does not teach that there are two physical Moseses. It teaches what is entirely coherent:
Moses' body remains in the grave.
Moses' soul exists in the barzakh, in a conscious state.
You ask: “Which is the real Moses?” The answer is: The same Moses — but his body and soul are currently separated, just as occurs with every human being after death.
This is the consistent position of virtually all religious traditions that affirm life after death, including Christianity. If you find that contradictory, you’re actually refuting your own religion as well.
So again, no contradiction exists — unless you adopt a purely materialist view of death, in which case you'd be better classified as a secularist, not a Christian.
Your lack of comprehension is obviously affecting you. 1. Was Moses TRUELY buried on earth and is in his grave praying? 2. If the above is TRUE, who then told Mohammed to reduce the prayer time given by Allah from 50?
If both answers about Moses is YES, then your understanding needs help for that is the meaning of Duality of Man (if you reject the Trinity of Man)
JimRohn: 📜 4. Misunderstanding of the Qur’an’s Nature You argue: > “If the Qur’an is eternal, how can it be written on paper and burned?” Again, you are confusing God’s speech as an eternal attribute with the physical representations of that speech. Islam distinguishes between:
Kalām Allāh — the uncreated speech of God (eternal attribute).
Mushaf — the created, physical form (ink, paper, sound).
Let me draw a clear analogy:
> Suppose you have a thought — that thought is abstract, part of your immaterial mind. If you then write it on paper, the paper can be destroyed, but the thought in your mind remains.
Likewise, the eternal Qur’an (God’s speech) can be written, recited, and memorized — all of which are created forms representing something uncreated.
Thus, there is no contradiction, because the essence and the manifestation are not the same thing.
Is the Hafs Qur'an, a Quran or not? If it is Qur'an according to you Muslims, then your arguments are futile.
Do you Muslims allow a woman having her mensuration to touch the Qur'an? Quran 56:79 "Which none shall touch but those who are clean:"
Is the physical Book the Qur'an or not?
It is the Qur'an sir!
So, my question remains: If the physical book is the Qur'an , even as a recitation, it has a beginning and can be destroyed.
JimRohn: 🔄 5. You Are Circling Back Without Addressing the Initial Contradiction
You accuse me of "repetition," yet your entire reply merely reasserts points that were already addressed in detail — without engaging their logical content.
You do not resolve how God can be both omniscient and ignorant.
You do not resolve how God can be untemptable (James 1:13) yet tempted (Matthew 4:1).
You do not resolve how immortal God (1 Timothy 6:16) can be subject to death on the cross.
Instead, you:
Shift to Islamic topics without first resolving your own.
Demand that “duality” justifies “Trinity” — when one is a non-contradictory metaphysical distinction, and the other a logical impossibility.
If your only defense of the Trinity is that "Islam also has things I don’t understand," then you are conceding that the Trinity is illogical and hoping to deflect rather than justify.
✅ Conclusion: Be Consistent — and Return to the Point
If you want to argue for the Trinity, then do so on its own terms. Show how the same Jesus can be fully God and fully man without violating the law of non-contradiction. That is the challenge before you — and I still welcome your attempt to answer it directly.
As Muslims, we affirm:
One God with no partners, no contradictions, and no confusion.
Logical consistency in divine attributes: omniscience, perfection, immortality — all of which apply only to Allah.
I invite you to examine the clarity and consistency of Tawḥīd, rather than dtradiction by accusing others.
Respectfully,
You have displayed gross ignorance of the subway hand and you are forming knowledge from lack of understanding and misrepresentation of Clear explanations.
At the risk of redundancy, Let me show you again a. Moses is at least a duality (as Christians, every human being is a Trinity). -There is Moses's Physical Identity by which everyone on earth recognises him and by which he interacts with the physical realm. This is Moses's BODY and he is known on Earth as Moses! - There is Moses's Spiritual Identity by which everyone in paradise recognises him and by which he interacts with the spiritual realm. This is Moses's SOUL and he is known in paradise as Moses! b. Moses is ONE but he has at least TWO different identities.
Thus, Moses can be dead and Alive at the same time. His Duality makes this not contradictory.
2. According to Muslims, the Qur'an is Kalām Allāh from the Umm al-Kitab in paradise and is eternal and uncreated. This Quran became a book on earth and you call it the Qur'an. You treat is a the exact words of Allah! You give the book honour by the way you treat is. It means that a. The Qur'an is a duality of the Qur'an in paradise and the Qur'an on earth. b. The Qur'an on earth is not eternal and is created. The Qur'an in paradise is uncreated and eternal.
Thus the physical Qur'an can be destroyed and yet the Qur'an still remains undestroyed.
3. YHWH is ONE Being who exists with the IDENTITY of the Trinity of the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. If you like (as an analogy) *YHWH with the Identity of the Holy Spirit He is invisible and the whole physical and spiritual universe are within Him. He is Omnipresent identity of God whose power is distributed throughout the Universe *YHWH with Identity as the Father He is visible to the Angels in paradise and He presides over the physical and spiritual realm. *YHWH with the Identity as the Word He is the manifest presence of God anywhere in Creation. By Him everything was commanded to be. He became human by incarnating and taking up human nature with it's weaknesses.
I have asked you the question before When Jibril became a perfect man, did he cease being an Angel? AND When the Word became Human, should he cease to be the Word?
Phillipias 2:6 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
Philippians 2:7-8 "But emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."
As a test to your sincerity According to Christians, Moses is ONE Being having the Identities of a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. BUT For your sake (I will use the dual nature of man: meaning that Moses has a Body and a Soul).
When Moses died, 1. Did Moses Body Die? 2. Did Moses Soul Die? Is Moses truely Living or Dead?
When the Word put on Limitations, according to the Christian doctrine. 1. Did the Father also put on Limitations? 2. Did the Holy Spirit also put on Limitations? Did God become Limited or remain Unlimited?
Your answer to this will show if all these discussions is a WASTE of precious time or not
NB: The fact that you cannot comprehend the Wave-Particle Duality of Matter doesn't make it false. It only shows that you are ignorant.
JimRohn: Thank you again for your reply. I will respond respectfully and clearly—but also directly—because this conversation is now cycling through the same set of previously addressed questions without acknowledgment of the answers given. If we cannot move forward with intellectual sincerity, then continuing the discussion serves no purpose.
1. Do Jews Believe the Holy Spirit Is an Angel?
You insisted on a simple yes or no.
The honest answer is: Jews do not believe the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine person or an angel.
In Jewish theology, the ruach ha-qodesh (Holy Spirit) is understood primarily as a manifestation of God's power or presence, not a person or angel. That is precisely the point I made earlier. Your attempt to force Islamic theology to depend on Jewish angelology or Christian logic is flawed from the outset.
Islam teaches that the Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus) is Jibrīl, based on internal Qur’anic evidence (see Qur’an 2:97 and 16:102). The Qur’an, not Jewish or Christian belief, defines the role and identity of the Holy Spirit in Islam.
You’re asking a question rooted in Jewish theology, then using it to reject Islamic theology. That’s a category error.
Modern Jews do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God as a person but they say that the Holy Spirit is the manifest power of God's presence that creates and inspire the prophets.
My argument is simply this: Can you find any prophet of God apart from Mohammed who thinks the Holy Spirit is a created being like an Angel.
If you cannot find one, we have every reason to reject your Islamic theology as fraudulently wrong.
Do you have any support that Jibril is the Holy Spirit other than Islam?
Do you agree that even to the Jews, the notion that an Angel called Jibril is the Holy Spirit is an insult.
Don't forget that Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit and NOWHERE is He less than the Power of the Presence of God Himself.
JimRohn: 2. Is Blasphemy Against an Angel Unforgivable?
You demanded a yes or no again. The answer is: Blasphemy against any creature, angel or prophet, is not unforgivable—unless it involves knowingly rejecting divine truth after it has been made clear.
> The verse in question (Matthew 12:32) is from your own scripture, and Jesus Himself says that blasphemy against Him is forgivable, but not against the Holy Spirit. That undermines the argument that unforgivability proves divinity.
Islamic theology, again, does not base the nature of divinity on how unforgivable an act is. So your conclusion is based on Christian logic, which is not binding on me.
So, if indeed Jesus was correct about the Holy Spirit, then He cannot be an Angel. The least you can think of the Holy Spirit is that He cannot be an Angel (if Jesus was correct).
If Jesus was correct about this, Islam is wrong!
JimRohn: 3. Is It Halal to Say: “In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl”?
Your question is irrelevant to Islamic theology.
No, it is not halal, nor is it even a recognized phrase in Islam. Worship and invocation are reserved solely for Allah. That is exactly why Muslims reject the Trinitarian formula of invoking God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Your question fails as an analogy. You are comparing a phrase in Christianity that implies divinity and equality (Matthew 28:19) to a hypothetical phrase in Islam that does not exist and would in fact be considered shirk (polytheism). So we reject it entirely.
In short: No, the phrase is not halal, and your analogy is invalid.
I am satisfied with the fact that you admit that such statement is NOT Halal in Islam. This, if Jesus is correct about this, Islam is false calling Jibril an Angel!
JimRohn: 4. “Jibrīl Is Not Called Rūḥ al-Qudus in the Qur’an” — False Claim You said: > “Allah never said Jibrīl is the Rūḥ al-Qudus.”
This is demonstrably false.
Let’s review the Qur’anic logic again: Qur’an 2:97 – “Whoever is an enemy to Jibrīl—it is he who brought it (the Qur’an) down to your heart...”
Qur’an 16:102 – “Say: The Holy Spirit has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord in truth...”
The same act (bringing the Qur’an) is attributed to Jibrīl in one verse and to the Holy Spirit in the other. This is not a reinterpretation; this is simple deduction.
So yes, the Qur’an equates Jibrīl with Rūḥ al-Qudus. And Islamic scholarship affirms this with consensus—not because they “made it up centuries later,” but because they understood the Arabic language and Qur’anic context far better than your polemics allow.
Let me accept your evidence here. Indirectly, the Holy Spirit is Jibril in the Qur'an.
You misrepresented my statements. Nowhere did I deny that Jibrīl is an angel. Islam teaches clearly:
Jibrīl is the chief angel assigned to deliver revelation (Qur’an 2:97, 26:193).
He is also referred to as Rūḥ, because of his role in bringing the divine message.
He was created, like all angels, and is not divine in any sense. There is no contradiction in this Islamic teaching.
The question was to find out if Jibril was an Angel or not. If Jibril was an Angel, why did Allah say
Qur'an 78:38 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand in rows, they will not speak except for one whom the Most Merciful permits, and he will say what is correct."
Who is this spirit as Jibril is an Angel?
The day the Senator and the soldiers will stand in rows help us know that the Senator is NOT one of the soldiers!
Islam doesn't know what the Spirit is!
JimRohn: 6. Where Does Jesus Say: “I Am the Messiah”? > You challenged: “Show where Jesus says ‘I am the Messiah.’” That’s easy.
John 4:25–26 – The Samaritan woman says: “I know that Messiah is coming...” Jesus replies: “I who speak to you am he.”
So yes, Jesus calls himself the Messiah. But calling himself Messiah is not the same as calling himself God.
7. Where Does Allah Say: “I Am Not a Trinity”? > You asked for an explicit statement that Allah says: “I am not a Trinity.” Here you go:
Qur’an 4:171 – “Do not say ‘Three’—desist! It is better for you. Indeed, Allah is only One God. Far exalted is He above having a son.”
Qur’an 5:73 – “They have certainly disbelieved who say: ‘Allah is the third of three.’”
These are unambiguous rejections of the doctrine of the Trinity.
I just flipped your question back to you. I needed categorical statements like you asked me to provide. Was any of these a direct statement in the Qur'an?
JimRohn: 8. Final Observation: Are We Going in Circles?
You continue to:
Repeat the same questions, ignoring the answers,
Demand “yes/no” answers to complex theological matters,
Shift between Jewish theology, Christian logic, and Islamic terms without consistency.
If your goal is mutual understanding, then let us proceed respectfully, acknowledging responses and debating sincerely.
But if the aim is simply to ignore answers, distort positions, and recycle fallacies—then I must respectfully end this exchange.
✅ Summary:
Yes: Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit in Islam.
No: Muslims don’t invoke Jibrīl or the Prophet in worship.
Yes: Jesus called himself Messiah but never called himself God.
Yes: The Qur’an explicitly rejects the Trinity.
No: Severity of blasphemy ≠ proof of divinity.
Yes: You are repeating questions already answered.
If you wish to continue this discussion, please respond directly to the core Islamic arguments rather than repeating mischaracterizations. If not, then I respectfully close by saying:
> “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6)
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance.
All I have done is to show you that not one prophet agrees with you that the Holy Spirit is an Angel.
The worst interpretation you can give about the Holy Spirit is that He is the Power of God's Presence and not God Himself.
If the Holy Spirit is NOT God BUT the Power of God's presence, tell me How it is Possible that an Angel is the Power of God's presence?
Don't forget, your prophet was asked a simple Question by the Jews. Every Jewish prophet interacted with the Spirit of God as not everyone spoken to by an Angel is a prophet.
Qur’an 17:85 "And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Spirit. Say, 'The Spirit is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind has not been given of knowledge except a little.'
If the Spirit was Jibril, Why didn't Allah just reply that the Spirit is Jibril?
Till today, no Muslim knows what the Spirit is: do you!?
JimRohn: Thank you for your reply. I will address your comments with clarity and consistency, grounded in the Qur’an and reasoned logic.
1. Did Ancient Jews Believe the Holy Spirit Was an Angel?
You asked:
> “Starting from Moses to Isaiah to David to Solomon, which among the Jews remotely thought that the Holy Spirit was an Angel?”
This question presupposes that the Jewish conception of the ruach (spirit) was identical to the Christian Trinitarian view, which it was not.
The Old Testament does not present the Holy Spirit as a distinct divine person, nor does it present Him as God co-equal with Yahweh. The ruach is often presented as God's power, breath, or presence—not a person.
Furthermore, no pre-Christian Jewish sect (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, or any group from the Second Temple period) ever formulated or taught a Trinitarian concept of God. That alone should give pause to the claim that belief in the divinity of the Holy Spirit was normative.
So the Muslim claim is not that Jews believed the Holy Spirit was an angel—but rather, that neither Jews nor Jesus preached the Holy Spirit as a third co-equal divine person. And Islam affirms that the Holy Spirit refers to Gabriel (Jibrīl), the angel of revelation—based on Qur’anic internal evidence.
Why is it difficult to respond to a direct question! The Jews do not believe in Trinity. The question is : Do the Jews believe that the Holy Spirit is any Angel?
It's a YES or NO question!
JimRohn: 2. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit: Does Forgiveness Prove Divinity?
You asked:
> “Does it make sense that blasphemy against an angel has no forgiveness…?”
Let’s revisit the actual verse again:
> “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven…” (Matthew 12:32)
This passage highlights the severity of rejecting divine revelation—not the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Jesus clearly says He Himself can be spoken against, yet that does not make Him inferior in essence.
In Islam, certain crimes such as hypocrisy or denying revelation after knowledge may be unforgivable in the Hereafter—not because the recipient is divine, but because the offense is a willful rejection of truth.
So the logic fails: Severity of punishment ≠ proof of divinity.
I didn't ask you to re-interprete the verse or my question. Does it make sense that the Blasphemy against angel has no forgiveness either I. This world or the world to come?
It is a YES or NO question sir!
JimRohn: 3. “In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl”? You asked:
> “Is it halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl…?”
This is a false analogy. The formula in Matthew 28:19 includes the Holy Spirit with the Father and Son, implying ontological equality. But nowhere does the Bible define what that equality means, nor does Jesus clarify that the Holy Spirit is God Himself.
In Islam, there is no such phrase pairing Allah, the Prophet, and Jibrīl in worship or invocation. Worship belongs solely to Allah.
Jibrīl and Prophet Muhammad ﷺ are servants of Allah—one an angelic messenger, the other a human messenger. So your analogy fails because Islam preserves strict monotheism (Tawḥīd), while Trinitarianism conflates roles with essence.
Please answer my direct question: “Is it halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl…in Islam?” Or Is it Halal to say: "Do your Ablution in the name of Allah, Mohammed and Jibril?"
Is it difficult answering direct questions?
JimRohn: 4. Qur’anic Identification of Jibrīl as the Holy Spirit You dismissed my earlier point: > “You didn’t quote the Qur’an but Al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr…”
Actually, I did quote the Qur’an—multiple times. Let me clarify again:
Qur’an 2:97 – “Whoever is an enemy to Jibrīl—for indeed he brought it (the Qur’an) down to your heart by Allah’s permission…”
Qur’an 16:102 – “Say: The Holy Spirit has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord in truth…”
From these two verses, the conclusion is clear:
The Qur’an was revealed by Jibrīl.
The Qur’an was revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Conclusion: Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit.
This is not blind reliance on scholars—it is a direct logical inference from the Qur’an itself. Scholars like Al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr simply explain what the Qur’an already says.
Allah spoke of Ruh -Al-Qudus BUT never once said Jibril was the Ruh Al-Qudus.
You want me to accept prophet Ibn Kathir and prophet Al-Tabari re-interpretations of your Qur'an.
Are you aware that From Muhammad (570 CE) to Al-Ṭabarī (808 CE) is about 238 years.
From Muhammad (570 CE) to Ibn Kathīr (1300 CE) is about 730 years.
From Al-Ṭabarī (808 CE) to Ibn Kathīr (1300 CE) is about 492 years.
If this is where you get your deen, I can imagine why you have swallowed so much lies that you are becoming the lie.
JimRohn: 5. Are Angels “Spirits” in Islam? Yes or No? You wrote:
> “Are Angels Spirits in Islam? It’s a YES or NO question!”
The correct answer: Some angels—such as Jibrīl—are called “spirit” in the Qur’an. But not all angels are spirits.
The Qur’an uses terms with precision:
Jibrīl is called Rūḥ al-Qudus (Holy Spirit), Rūḥ al-Amīn (Trustworthy Spirit), and simply Rūḥ (Spirit), e.g., in 26:193, 16:102, 2:97, 78:38.
Other angels (e.g., the angel of death) are not called "Rūḥ."
So in Islam:
Jibrīl is both an angel and a spirit, as described explicitly in the Qur’an.
Not all angels are spirits, and not all spirits are divine.
Thus, the term rūḥ (spirit) in Islam has multiple usages:
God’s creative command (e.g., Qur’an 17:85),
A special creation like Jesus (Qur’an 4:171),
The angel Jibrīl, who brings revelation (e.g., Qur’an 16:102),
The soul (Qur’an 39:42).
Consistency in Islam is achieved through contextual usage and precise definition, not by flattening all terms into one meaning.
Final Thought
Islam does not claim the Holy Spirit is “just an angel.” Rather, it defines him as Jibrīl, a noble messenger entrusted with divine revelation—distinct from God, not divine, and not a partner in Godhead.
That is pure monotheism: God is One, not three.
Now I return the challenge:
If I understand you, Jibril was not created from Light
Jibril is NOT an Angel!?
JimRohn: Can you provide a single verse where Jesus explicitly says:
> “The Holy Spirit is God,” or “Worship the Holy Spirit,” or “God is three in one”?
If not, then the doctrine of the Trinity remains a post-biblical formulation, not a teaching of Christ himself.
Let us debate with truth, clarity, and mutual respect. Peace be upon those who follow the guidance.
After you provide a verse in the Qur'an ran where Jesus explicitly said "I am the Messiah!" Or show explicitly where Allah says "I am Not a Trinity" Then we will debate with truth and clarity.
Islam is a religion of amalgamation of many religions: Idolatry, Christianity, Judaism, Sabean etc and the relics about. Unfortunately, it is a deception by the Al-Makr as ALL Muslims will enter the fire only that it will not be temporary.
Thank you for your reply and for taking the time to engage with the question I posed. I appreciate the effort you’ve made to raise what you perceive as parallel challenges from Islamic theology.
However, I must respectfully note that your response does not directly engage the core issue I raised — namely, how the doctrine of the Incarnation and Trinity can be logically coherent if the same being is simultaneously all-knowing, untemptable, and immortal, yet also ignorant, tempted, and subject to death.
Rather than addressing this theological contradiction, you have shifted the discussion to various perceived "contradictions" in Islamic belief. I will respond to your points for the sake of clarity and fairness, but I must ask: Why did you deviate from addressing the central philosophical question about the nature of God in Christianity?
Let us proceed, then, to your objections — one by one — and clarify their premises and implications.
Too bad! I am using exactly your rules. If it is physically logically contradictory, it must be a fallacy (falsehood)
All I did was to show you yourself in the mirror, so, do not complain.
I had promised you that I will use your rule against you.
JimRohn: ❓ 1. Are the Prophets Dead or Alive? Is There a Contradiction?
In Islamic theology, death is understood as the separation of the soul from the body, not annihilation. The Qur’an teaches that the deceased enter a barzakh (intermediate realm) where they remain in a conscious state awaiting resurrection (Qur’an 23:100). The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was shown the souls of Prophets during the Isra’ and Mi’raj (Night Journey), not their bodies. These souls are alive in the barzakh, as affirmed by both the Qur’an and authentic hadith.
This is not a contradiction. There is no claim that they are alive in the physical, bodily sense in Paradise while simultaneously buried in the grave. Their souls are what he encountered — and this is clearly stated in Islamic sources.
Your framing assumes that death must mean nonexistence or total unconsciousness — a materialist assumption not shared by either Islam or Christianity, both of which affirm the continued existence of the soul. If you reject Islamic teachings about the soul because I reject the Trinity as illogical, that would be a category error. My rejection of the Trinity is based on the logical contradiction of essential attributes (omniscience + ignorance), not on a dismissal of spiritual realities as such.
You want me to believe that a human being exist in a DUAL state as a solution to this contradiction!? 1. A human being exist as a Soul 2. A human being exist physically (on earth)
But you vehemently reject Trinity as explanation!? SMH!
Please find any other explanation as the soul isn't an explanation!
JimRohn: ❓ 2. Did the Prophet Speak to Dead People in Two Places?
Again, this objection conflates essence with location. When Prophet Muhammad ﷺ encountered the souls of earlier Prophets during the Mi’raj, he was not speaking to their earthly bodies, which remain in the grave. He was speaking to their conscious souls, preserved in the barzakh. Their "personhood" is not extinguished by death.
There is no contradiction here — because Islam does not claim that the same body is in two places, nor that their human essence is both dead and alive in the same sense. Rather:
Their bodies remain buried.
Their souls are alive in the unseen world.
This duality of soul and body is not a paradox, but a foundational metaphysical distinction recognized in both Islam and classical Christian theology.
Again, the contradiction of the prophets having their human bodies here on earth but Mohammed also interacting with them in paradise is resolved by appealing to the DUALITY of human existence.
How do you wante to accept your explanation? Deal with the logical impossibility of the fact that a person doesn't have two physical bodies!
JimRohn: ❓ 3. Bodies in the Grave vs. Presence in Paradise You ask: “How can the Prophets’ bodies be in the grave while they are in Paradise?”
Answer: The bodies are not in Paradise — their souls are. Islamic belief distinguishes clearly between soul and body, especially before the resurrection. Resurrection has not occurred yet, so bodily resurrection is not in question here.
To claim contradiction, you would need Islam to teach that the same body is both in the grave and in Paradise — which it clearly does not. Hence, there is no contradiction, logically or theologically.
If I get you correctly, Mohammed saw the ghosts of the prophets in paradise and not the real persons!?
I am sorry. Your explanation doesn't resolve any issues as only One Moses exist, Only one prophet Joseph exist etc. It is a logical contradiction for Moses or the other prophets to be two in one.
Okay. Which is the real Moses? The one in the grave or the one in paradise or both? LOL!
JimRohn: ❓ 4. Is the Qur’an Eternal but Also Printed?
Here, you conflate the eternal attribute of the Qur’an (kalām Allāh — the speech of Allah) with created physical manifestations of that speech, such as:
Written mushafs (codices)
Translations
Audio recitations
Islamic theology makes an explicit distinction:
The Qur’an as the eternal speech of God (His attribute) is uncreated.
The written form, like ink on paper, is created, as it is simply a physical recording of God's uncreated speech.
This is akin (for analogy's sake) to a composer’s melody existing in his mind (abstractly), while also being performed by an orchestra or written in notation. The performance is created, but the composition preexisted it.
There is no logical contradiction here. The attribute of God (His Speech) is uncreated, but the means through which humans access or preserve it (books, memory, recitation) are created.
In Islam, these issues involve different levels of reality (physical vs. metaphysical). In Christianity, the contradiction is within a single being: omniscience and ignorance coexisting in Jesus as the God-man. That is the logical impasse I originally raised — and which still remains unanswered.
It seems your argument is that the printed Qur'an is NOT the Qur'an.
Is that your final answer?
Because, if the printed Qur'an is the Qur'an, it cannot be eternal. It is a logical contradiction.
So I return to my original inquiry, now more pressing:
> How do you logically reconcile the claim that Jesus is God with the fact that he is described as ignorant of the Hour, tempted by Satan, tired, and subject to death — all of which are incompatible with divinity?
Analogies with angels or souls do not resolve this because in your theology, Jesus is not merely representing God — he is God. Thus, his ignorance or temptation affects God Himself in your framework.
That, respectfully, is the contradiction that remains outstanding.
🤝 Concluding Remarks
I sincerely appreciate your willingness to engage. I trust that this response clarifies the false parallels drawn, and I hope we can return to the central theological issue that was raised.
I welcome your response — especially if it directly addresses the logical coherence of claiming Jesus is fully God while subject to attributes that compromise divine perfection.
Kind regards, Jimrohn
I have used your rules: You have NOT answered ANY of the Logical contradictions raised, therefore either re-explain to resolve it or stop your meaningless repetition of questions you really don't want an answer to.
Again: 1. There is one prophet Moses: but we are seeing TWO. One in Paradise and the other in the grave. Please don't tell me about the soul as we know of only one Moses NOT two! Is Moses a BODY or a SOUL or Both? Please Resolve this contradiction. Is it logical to be dead and alive at the same time?
2. You say the Qur'an is eternal and uncreated. Every Qur'an we have seen down to the recitation of Mohammed had a beginning and thus cannot be eternal not uncreated. Does it make sense for the Qur'an to be eternal and destructible? Is this not a contradiction? Are these two not contrary attributes?
+Moses can be dead yet alive is a logical contradiction +The Qur'an is eternal yet can be burnt and destroyed is a logical contradiction!
Mr JimRohn I have used exactly your strategy! It was extremely hypocritical of you to even attempt to explain these so-called logical contradictions with the explanation using DUALITY of natures but you reject explanations by the TRINITY of God's nature.
It is either you quietly accept that 1. The Qur'an cannot be eternal 2. Your prophet didn't see Moses or the other prophets 3. The Prophets are not in paradise For their logical contradictions or be consistent with your logic. I will understand if you were an Atheist as they don't believe in anything other than the physical nature.
I can choose to be obstinate exactly like you and repeat these my questions a million times while refusing your explanation by DUALITY of Natures.
JimRohn: Thank you again for your response and for attempting to draw parallels in order to make your point clearer. I appreciate the effort to establish consistency.
Let me first directly address your comparison between the Islamic belief about Angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) appearing in human form and the Christian claim of the Incarnation — namely, that God (YHWH) became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.
🧭 On the Comparison Between Jibrīl and the Incarnation
Your argument seems to be that if Muslims accept that Angel Jibrīl can appear in human form without ceasing to be an angel, then it is inconsistent for Muslims to reject the idea that God (YHWH) can become man without ceasing to be God. On the surface, this seems like a symmetry, but it fundamentally fails under closer scrutiny. Here's why:
1. Category Distinction: Functional Manifestation vs. Ontological Fusion
In the case of Jibrīl:
He assumes the outward form of a human being.
He does not become human in essence — his angelic nature is intact and unchanged.
He is merely perceived as a man, and this transformation is external and temporary.
At no point is Jibrīl subject to human limitations like ignorance, sin, death, or hunger in essence. These are not imposed on his being — he remains fully angelic.
In the case of Jesus (according to Christian theology):
The claim is not that God merely appeared in human form, but that God became man.
The divine nature is said to have fused with human nature — in one person.
Jesus, as per Christian doctrine, experienced ignorance (Mark 13:32), temptation, suffering, and death.
These are not surface attributes — they affect the essence of the person.
Hence, you are comparing appearance (Jibrīl) with ontological union (Jesus) — two fundamentally different concepts.
All you have done is to demonstrate that Allah is not Almighty as you claim that Jibril only manifested an outward form of a man and not an incarnation as if incarnation was impossible for Jibril (by the permission of Allah).
Sorry to burst your Bubble 1. Can Allah manifest an outward form of a man like YHWH in the Old Testament? If No! You case scatters like a pack of cards.
If YHWH (using your word) can enter into His creation and manifest in form of a man, can He not incarnate as man?
2. Contrary to the claim of Allah who said Jibril came in form of a perfect man. And a perfect man must be a man in every respect, you claimed "He does not become human in essence" Sorry, Allah didn't say that. 3. Again, you repeat claims as if repetition makes it correct that Jesus had human limitations. Do you think as a perfect man, Jibril possessed no human biological feelings?
All your arguments bore down to this 1. Jibril wasn't a perfect man (Allah made a mistake) and you are here to correct him.
Do you disagree that Incarnation or physical manifestation of an outward form of an unseen personality is a function that he can enter the physical world?
Can Allah enter the physical world?
JimRohn: 2. Contradiction of Essential Attributes In Islamic theology:
Angels are created beings with specific attributes; their form can vary without contradiction because their essence remains consistent. They are not omniscient, omnipotent, or eternal, so transforming formally does not result in a logical contradiction.
In Christian theology:
God is said to be eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, and unchanging.
Becoming man (who is by nature finite, ignorant, changeable, and mortal) entails a direct contradiction of essential attributes.
You cannot say that someone is simultaneously omniscient and ignorant, omnipotent and weak, eternal and subject to death — in the same person — without invoking contradiction.
This is not about failing to "understand" the Trinity; this is a matter of logic. Two contradictory attributes cannot exist in a single essence without violating the principle of non-contradiction.
3. Incarnation ≠ Delegation or Representation
If you claimed that Jesus was representing God, that would be a separate discussion (though Islam would still reject it). But to say that God became Jesus means attributing to God the full reality of human limitations.
By contrast, in Islam, no Prophet or Angel is believed to embody God's essence. All creation — including Prophets — are servants of God, not His incarnations.
📌 Clarifying Consistency
You challenged me on consistency. But I submit that the Islamic view is consistent:
An angel taking on an appearance does not compromise its essence.
But God assuming human attributes, including ignorance and death, does compromise divine essence.
The burden of proof remains on you to logically reconcile how the same being can be both fully omniscient and ignorant at the same time without contradiction — not just theologically assert it.
🔄 On Progress and Engagement
You rightly note that I have repeated the core question. But that repetition is not without reason — it's because the answers provided thus far have not addressed the philosophical contradiction itself, only reiterated doctrinal affirmations.
Saying “the Word became flesh” is a claim, not a resolution of the logical problem. To move forward, a theological assertion must be coherently explained, not just repeated.
✍️ Concluding Thoughts
Let me close with this:
I fully respect your right to affirm the Trinity and Incarnation as matters of faith.
But when discussing these doctrines philosophically, one must be prepared to answer how seemingly contradictory attributes can coexist rationally within one being.
As a Muslim, I affirm:
> “There is nothing like unto Him” (Qur’an 42:11) God is utterly distinct from His creation — and to merge the divine with the mortal is to collapse that essential distinction.
If you wish to continue, I invite you to respond not with analogies, but with a clear logical framework that resolves the contradiction in attributes. That, I believe, is where true interfaith clarity lies.
Kind regards.
Then you went about rambling about things not even related to my post as my question remains unanswered. It seems you are not aware that what you call functional manifestation is also an INCARNATION. The only difference is the time duration!
I ask again, When Jibril came as a perfect man, did he cease being and Angel knowing that Angels do not have human characteristics?
When YHWH the Word came as Jesus Christ (a man), did he cease being YHWH the Word, knowing that God do not have human characteristics?
Be consistent with your answer except you despise the truth!
Please: Check again the meaning of Incarnation before you respond.
honesttalk21: Do you agree that YHWH is in Hebrew language?
Please point at exact Hebrew words used in the Quran. Arabicized words don't qualify.
God revealed His name to Moses whose TRANSLITERATION in Hebrew is YHWH! I don't know anywhere a name is translated in the language of the recipient.
AGAIN The Question is simple: Is YHWH the name of your God!
It is like asking Is Tinubu your President?
The problem of Mohammed was that he never once heard any Jew around him call the name YHWH else he would have added it to the names of Allah.
God is a TITLE like PRESIDENT is a TITLE! In Hebrew, the Title "God" is El- , El-oah, El-ohim.
How do you know that YHWH is a translated name. Jews don't even try to pronounce the name as it is too Holy and Jews do not call their Father by name. Exo 6:3: "And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them."
Exo 3:15: "And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial to all generations."
So, again: Which of the 99 names of Allah is YHWH?
Al-LAH just simply means 'Deity Lah" or "God Lah", unfortunately, Muslims do NOT know the name of their God.
It is like asking a toddler, what is the name of your father and he says the name of my father is DADDY!
You said: Is YHVH same as Ubangidi, Chukwu or Oluwa of Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba language. Unfortunately for you each of these local names are titles and not names of God
Ubangiji=Almighty Oluwa= Lord Olorun= Lord of the Sky Chukwu= Great God Al-LAH= God Lah
honesttalk21: The issue really isn't there unless you create it.
Is YHVH same as Ubangidi, Chukwu or Oluwa of Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba language. Maybe we may never know for certain being that so far there doesn't seem to be a documented revelation in any of these languages to prophets from these tribes.
The almighty God in Arabic, the language in which the Quran was revealed to prophet Muhammad pbuh is Allah. It shouldn't be confused with Illah that means the god.
Pre-islamic Arabs recognised Allah as the almighty God though they had their polytheist ways. They claimed worship of their idols as a means to reach the almighty God.
Perhaps you should also investigate if Adonai, HaShem, Kyrios also refer to the same being YHVH refers to?
The Question is simple: Is YHWH the name of your God!
It is like asking Is Tinubu your President?
The problem of Mohammed was that he never once heard any Jew around him call the name YHWH else he would have added it to the names of Allah.
God is a TITLE like PRESIDENT is a TITLE! In Hebrew, the Title "God" is El- , El-oah, El-ohim.
How do you know that YHWH is a translated name. Jews don't even try to pronounce the name as it is too Holy and Jews do not call their Father by name. Exo 6:3: "And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them."
Exo 3:15: "And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial to all generations."
So, again: Which of the 99 names of Allah is YHWH?
Al-LAH just simply means 'Deity Lah" or "God Lah", unfortunately, Muslims do NOT know the name of their God.
It is like asking a toddler, what is the name of your father and he says the name of my father is DADDY!
You said: Is YHVH same as Ubangidi, Chukwu or Oluwa of Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba language. Unfortunately for you each of these local names are titles and not names of God
Ubangiji=Almighty Oluwa= Lord Olorun= Lord of the Sky Chukwu= Great God Al-LAH= God Lah
If not for weak Biden they restricted Ukraine and refused to give them any long range weapons for fear of escalation, the war would have ended a year ago
Continuation: I have to break some of your replies into two to avoid a ban
JimRohn: 6. “Breathed into Adam My Spirit” – Is Jibril Breathed into Adam? You ask: > “Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam?”
Of course not. The Qur’anic phrase: > “…breathed into him from My Spirit (min rūḥī)” (15:29, 38:72) This does not mean a piece of God or Jibril entered Adam. In classical Arabic, “My” (rūḥī) is an honorific possessive, not literal possession.
The Ka‘bah is called “My House” (Baytī), yet no Muslim believes God resides there.
It means Adam was honored with a special soul created by God, not that he shares God's nature.
Sorry sir. If Jibril is the Holy Spirit, then necessarily a spirit is a living being.
This, Jibril is a spirit AND Jesus is a spirit from Allah.
Since you would never agree that Jesus was breathe into Adam, I ask again. Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam?
JimRohn: 7. Jesus as “Spirit from God” – Does That Make Him Divine? > “…and His Word which He directed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him…” (Qur’an 4:171)
This simply means Jesus was created directly by God’s command (kun). Even Adam is referred to as being created by God’s command, yet no Muslim (or Jew) claims Adam is divine.
In Islam, the term “Spirit from Him” does not imply divinity but honor. Everything is from God, yet not everything is part of God.
The question wasn't to to claim that Jesus was devine.
Your prophet actually got it right: Jesus is Ruhullah (spirit of God) BUT trust islamic scholars, such nonsensical words even from your prophet must be re-interpreted into "honour"?
Let's take the literal words of Allah over that of Mohammed. Jesus is the Spirit FROM Allah!
It means that Jesus was a Spirit With Allah! And if you doubt me, Ask yourself the Question: Where is Jesus after Allah deceived the Jews, the Romans, Mary, the Apostles of Jesus and all the Disciples of Jesus?
Is it UNTRUE that Allah took Jesus up to HIMSELF?
So, you see why I said that Jesus was a Spirit With Allah!
JimRohn: 8. On Qur’an 10:94 – “Ask the People of the Book” This verse does not indicate doubt. It addresses hypothetical uncertainty for the Prophet’s audience as a rhetorical device.
Even Ibn Kathīr and Al-Qurtubī explain: this is not a command of reliance on Jews/Christians, but a confirmation that the Qur'an is in harmony with previous revelation.
Do you see the wisdom of Allah in asking Mohammed to ask the Cursed Jews and the Lost Christians who both have corrupted both their books and religion!?
Do you think this makes any sense?
Let's accept that it is a rhetorical question: would it be a sin if Mohammed carried out this instruction to ASK the people of the book?
JimRohn: 9. On Hell, Salvation, and God’s Nature You said:
> “Christians have a guarantee of paradise, Muslims go to hell (Qur’an 19:71)”
Let’s clarify:
Qur’an 19:71–72 does not say all Muslims stay in Hell. It says everyone passes over it (the Sirāt), but the righteous are saved:
> “Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.”
As for Christianity, the guarantee of paradise is only given in Pauline theology, not from Jesus. Jesus warned even believers:
> “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 7:21)
Unfortunately, you do not have the right to decide what I accept and what I reject from the Bible. Just as I don't have the right to confined you to Qur'an verses revealed in Medina alone. John 11:25: "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 3:36: "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him."
John 6:40: "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
The word “YHWH” is a specific Hebrew proper name; “Allah” is the universal Arabic name for the One God, used by Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians to this day.
The Qur’an refers to God as Ilāhukum wāḥid — "Your God is One" — consistent with the Shema of Judaism. Names differ linguistically across cultures. Even English speakers say "God" instead of "YHWH."
If a name must be phonetically identical across languages to refer to the same God, then non-Hebrew speakers have never worshipped the God of Abraham—a clearly flawed claim.
So, what is the linguistic equivalence of YHWH amongst the 99 names of Allah?
Muslims can tell lies for Africa.
How do you know that YHWH is a translated name. Jews don't even try to pronounce the name as it is too Holy and Jews do not call their Father by name. Exo 6:3: "And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them."
Exo 3:15: "And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial to all generations."
So, again: Which of the 99 names of Allah is YHWH?
JimRohn: 11. Final Remarks You ask: > “Should I leave the omnipotent, omnipresent God of Christianity for Allah?”
Let’s be frank: The Trinity was never taught explicitly by Jesus. The divinity of the Holy Spirit is not declared by Jesus.
Monotheism in Islam is crystal-clear, unambiguous, and consistent with all previous prophets.
Islam teaches God is above His creation, not bound by space, and has full knowledge, power, and mercy—without becoming a man or entering the world physically.
We invite you to return to the pure monotheism of Abraham—worshiping the One, Eternal God without division, partners, or incarnation.
> Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him. (Qur’an 112:1–4)
Let us continue in respectful dialogue, seeking truth—not victory.
At least, you understand how YHWH can be Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient according to the doctrine of Trinity. God can be on earth and in heaven at the same time.
Let me give you an example Gen 19:24: "Then YHWH (on earth) rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;"
Secondly, Allah is NOT a Spirit, thus he cannot be Omnipresent.
This is impossible for Allah to do: thus my rhetorical question remains Should I leave the omnipotent, omnipresent God of Christianity for Allah?”
Let me ask you: According to the Torah 1. Did the God of Abraham visit him as an Angel? Can Allah visit anyone as an Angel? 2. Did the God of Jacob visit him as man? Can Allah visit anyone as a Man? 3. Did the God of the Children of Israel see YHWH their God? Can Allah enter his creation? 4. Did YHWH appear to Moses? Can Allah appear to anyone on earth?
If your answer is not consistent with this, then Allah cannot be YHWH!
I am sorry, I didn't know how I missed this post of yours
JimRohn: Thank you for your detailed reply. I will address your points in a structured manner, maintaining clarity, mutual respect, and fidelity to the sources.
1. On What “Every Jew Knew” About the Holy Spirit You claim:
> "Every Jew knew the Holy Spirit as the manifest, ever-present power of God" "Every Jew knew the Holy Spirit is NOT an angel"
This is an assertion, not a demonstrable historical fact. Let’s clarify:
The Hebrew term ruach (רוּחַ) means breath, wind, or spirit—and has a wide semantic range, often referring to God's power or influence, not a distinct person of a divine Trinity.
Ancient Jews did not interpret ruach as a divine person co-equal with God. Jewish theology remains strictly Unitarian to this day.
Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is the Holy Spirit described as a person or as God Himself in a separate identity.
Even respected Trinitarian scholars concede that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Old Testament, and certainly not in explicit form from Jesus.
If "every Jew" supposedly knew the Holy Spirit is divine, then why did no Jewish sect—not Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes—ever teach a triune God?
The point is: Starting from Moses to Isaiah, to David to Solomon, which among the Jews remotely thought that the Holy Spirit was an Angel?
Islam is wrong!
JimRohn: 2. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit ≠ Proof of Divinity You asked:
> “Does it make sense to you that EVERY sin against God has forgiveness EXCEPT blasphemy against an Angel?”
Let’s clarify what Jesus actually said:
> “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven...” (Matthew 12:32)
First, not all unforgivable sins imply divinity of the offended party.
In Islam, hypocrisy (nifāq) and attributing lies to God’s messenger are considered grave and possibly unforgivable—yet we do not say the Prophet is divine.
Jesus himself is said to be insultable (“a word against the Son of Man”), yet the Holy Spirit is not. That does not make the Holy Spirit superior to Jesus, let alone divine. It simply underscores the gravity of rejecting divine inspiration, not the divinity of the agent.
This is a functional warning about resisting revelation—not a doctrinal proof of the Trinity.
This wasn't the point. The point is: Does it make sense that Blasphemy against an Angel has no forgiveness either in this world or the next to come?
JimRohn: 3. Matthew 28:19 – Is Listing Names Equal to Equality in Essence? You said: > “You think it is normal to associate the name of an angel with the name of God?” The verse states: > “…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Here’s the issue:
Merely mentioning three entities together does not prove they are equal in essence. One could say “in the name of God, the King, and the Prophet,” and that would not imply ontological unity or divinity of all three.
No verse from Jesus ever says “The Holy Spirit is God,” “Worship the Holy Spirit,” or “God is Three-in-One.” That is a post-biblical formulation, not a teaching of Christ.
Furthermore, the authenticity of this Trinitarian baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is widely questioned by scholars, as early Christian baptism in Acts was done only in Jesus’ name (e.g., Acts 2:38). Many scholars see the Trinitarian wording as a later editorial addition.
If I understand you, it is Halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Mohammed and Jibril do your good deeds?
Jesus is supposed to be a Muslim, remember!
JimRohn: 4. The Islamic Understanding of the Holy Spirit: Who Is Jibril?
You claim:
> “No single verse in the Qur’an calls Jibril the Holy Spirit.”
Let’s present the evidence directly:
Qur’an 2:97
> “Say, the Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus) has brought it down from your Lord in truth…”
Qur’an 2:97
> “Whoever is an enemy to Jibril—it is he who has brought it [the Qur’an] down upon your heart by permission of Allah…”
From this, classical scholars (e.g., Al-Ṭabarī, Ibn Kathīr) conclude that Jibril is the Holy Spirit, because both are described as the one who brings revelation.
If:
Rūḥ al-Qudus brings down revelation
Jibrīl brings down revelation Then: Rūḥ al-Qudus = Jibrīl.
This is not "ignorant interpolation" but logical inference from explicit text.
I challenged you to supply me verses from Allah that Jibril is the Holy spirit and the best you could do was to refer not even to Mohammed but prophet Al-Tabari and prophet Ibn Kathir!?
Please listen to yourself. Do you take your religion from Allah and Mohammed or from Ibn Kathir and Al-Tabari.
My challenge remains.
Otherwise, define in consistency terms "the spirit"! Why? Allah breathe of his spirit into Adam Jesus is a Spirit from Allah Jibril is also a spirit!
JimRohn: 5. Are Angels “Spirit” in Islam? You cite Psalm 104:4: “He makes His angels spirits...”
In Islam: Angels are created from light (ḥadīth: Muslim 2996).
The Qur’an describes Jibril as Rūḥ al-Amīn (The Trustworthy Spirit) in 26:193, and Rūḥ in 78:38 and 19:17.
So while not every angel is labeled “spirit” (rūḥ), Jibril is repeatedly called both angel and spirit—fitting the role of Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus).
Thus, your objection that "if angels are not spirits, Jibril cannot be a spirit" is both biblically and Qur’anically inconsistent.
My question was simple and direct! Are Angels Spirits in Islam?
sonmvayina: For the last time TenQ I have explained this Isaiah 53. It is about a suffering servant. Isaiah already told you who the servant is. See Isaiah 45:1-7. The suffering servant is Israel.
First question to ask your self is Who is talking in those passages ? You answer will make it clearer for you. Hint: it is not Isaiah.
You can't just take so e text out of a story and run away with it. You guys don't grow at all.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way ; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all
Ukraine's "Spiderweb 2.0" unleashes devastating drone attack on Russian train in Southern Ukraine. Over 13 tanks and 100+ armored vehicles destroyed. Relentless Ukrainian drones strike Russian chemical plants, oil depots, and military bases, causing widespread fires. Russia suffers heavy casualties, plans brutal new strike against Ukraine. Intense week sees destruction of Iskander launchers and military aircraft.
sonmvayina: 2nd chronicles 7:14 "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves ,confess and forsake their evil ways, I will hear from heaven, I will forgive their sins and heal their land"..... No talk of a human sacrifice.....
God does not need a human sacrifice, he never asked for it.... human sacrifice belongs to the realm of Lucifer....
Isa 53:3-12: "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way ; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all . He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul to death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
[quote author=JimRohn post=135670673][/quote]Here are my promised Questions to which I require some logically consistent answers. Just like you, I will choose not to entertain any explanation about the DUAL nature of persons or death or Qur'an. I want you to convince me with the same kind of explanations that would have satisfied you with respect to your question to me.
1. The Problem of Death in Islam: While not yet the time of RESURRECTION and noting that your prophet would be the first to be resurrected in the future; How is it that Abraham, Moses , David etc are dead and buried, yet your prophet related with them in paradise? Is this not a logical contradiction that a person is dead yet not dead at the same time? Meaning that this Islamic report cannot be true! (Please be careful not to tell me about the nature of Souls as you refused to accept the explanation of Trinity)
2. The Problem of Person-hood: Are the persons seen by your prophet in paradise the real persons or something impersonating them? Because they are supposed to be DEAD and in their GRAVES doing Worship and Prayers? Can you explain why it is NOT a logical contradiction for the persons of Adam, Moses to be spoken to by your prophet while their persons are supposed to be on earth at the same time? Is this not a Logical contradiction that a person is interacted with as a person but is not alive Alive? Just as you expect my answers from the Taoheed point of view, Explain logically how a person can be Dead and Buried yet is NOT dead?
3. The Problem of Bodies: Are the bodies of the prophets still in their graves while Mohammed was interacting with them in paradise? (Don't forget that it isn't yet the time of resurrection) Can you explain logically why it is NOT a logical contradiction for the Adam, Moses etc to have their bodies both on earth and in paradise at the same time? (Note: That just like everyone else, even the bodies of the Prophets have not been resurrected yet)
4. The Eternal Qur'an Problem: Muslims believe that the Qur'an is eternal. It is not created! It is an attribute of Allah! Unfortunately, I have a Qur'an by Yusuf Ali. It was first published in 1934 by Shaik Muhammad Ashraf Publishers, Lahore, Punjab. Are you sure that this my Qur'an eternal? How come it has a publisher and a date of publication. How come that the Qur'an can be burnt and destroyed if it supposed to be eternal? (Be sure to tell me that my Qur'an is NOT the Qur'an but a Translation: However, remember that the Hafs Qur'an has a date AND the Qur'an of Mohammed has a date which is certainly not eternal even according to recitation) Is this not a logical contradiction that something is eternal and uncreated yet we find it having a date of first recital or writing in a book or translation?
Remember that, your problem is that it is a logical contradiction for the One Eternal, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipresent God YHWH who is a Trinity to be Almighty and to have human limitations at the same time: thus a Fallacy!
JimRohn: Thank you for your reply and for your continued engagement. Before proceeding, I would like to address a concern regarding the nature of our dialogue.
It appears that we are beginning to repeat ground that has already been covered. The theological points I presented earlier were not primarily about the state of the prophets in their graves, but about the logical coherence of attributing divine and human limitations simultaneously to Jesus, and the philosophical tensions within Trinitarian theology.
Nonetheless, I will address your current observations for the sake of clarity — though they are unrelated to the core argument I raised. Let me clarify the Islamic perspective on the points you mentioned:
✅ Affirmations from Islamic Theology
1. Are the Prophets alive in their graves worshipping Allah? Yes — according to several authentic Islamic traditions (e.g., Sahih Muslim), the Prophets are alive in a special barzakh (intermediate) state, and they continue to worship Allah. This is a matter of the unseen (ghayb) that we affirm based on revelation.
2. Are their bodies preserved from decay? Yes — according to authentic ahadith, the earth does not consume the bodies of the Prophets, as a special honor given to them by Allah.
3. Has any prophet, including Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, been resurrected before the Day of Judgment? No. In Islamic belief, none of the deceased — prophets or otherwise — have been bodily resurrected yet. The Day of Resurrection (Yawm al-Qiyāmah) is when all humans will be raised and judged.
4. Will Prophet Muhammad ﷺ be the first to be resurrected? According to some narrations, he will be the first to be raised and intercede on behalf of humanity, but again, this will happen on the Day of Resurrection, not before.
📌 A Request for Clarity and Progress
Now that I’ve answered your observations with direct Islamic positions, I kindly ask: what is the relevance of these points to the original theological issue I raised — namely, whether a being who is truly God can be ignorant, tempted, or die without compromising divine perfection?
Additionally, I must respectfully ask: Why are we circling back to previously answered questions without addressing the main argument?
A productive dialogue requires progress, not repetition. I am more than willing to continue this discussion sincerely and respectfully, but only if it remains focused and forward-moving. If your next set of questions simply reiterates the same points without engaging the core logic of the Islamic perspective or responding meaningfully to the concerns I’ve raised, I suggest — respectfully — that we pause the dialogue here.
I remain open to genuine exchange, grounded in logic, clarity, and mutual respect.
Thank you for your response. The questions I asked seem on the surface unconnected to your main question but trust me, it does. I asked these questions so that 1. You would not turn around to say that the plain hadith is not saying exactly what it is saying. 2. That the same rule you are using for repeatedly asking a question that we have explained over and over, you will use it for yourself and be consistent.
This being said: Your repeated Question was: > If Jesus is fully God, how can he possess attributes that contradict divinity — such as ignorance (Mark 13:32), weakness, temptation, and death? OR > How can the same being who is said to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and unchanging also be ignorant of the Hour, tired, tempted, and crucified?
Every attempt to explain with the Trinity and the fact that YHWH the Word became human and thus necessarily would have human attributes and weaknesses did not change your mind as you repeatedly restated the question as if it wasn't answered according to the Christian theology and scripture.
Your argument was that the nature of YHWH is a contradiction, thus necessarily a fallacy. You said:
If you believe the Trinity and incarnation are rationally coherent, I invite you to explain how God can be fully divine and fully subject to human limitation without contradiction.
You also said:
Simply saying “the Word became flesh” does not resolve the philosophical contradiction — it relocates it. If “Jesus is God,” and Jesus is ignorant of the Hour (Mark 13:32), the divine attribute of omniscience is compromised in the person of Jesus. This is not a question of rejecting the Trinity outright, but of pointing out that, by its own terms, the doctrine raises unresolved contradictions between divinity and humanity that cannot be ignored.
Even though, I asked you before this question which you answered but refused to use the same logic to resolve your own query: I asked you; When Jibril became a perfect man, did he cease being an Angel? And you answered correctly; Jibril remain an angel even in his incarnation. To pull you harder, I even teased you with mundane questions like did Jibril as a man have intestines, does he have saliva in his mouth etc.
Consistency on your part required that: If Jibril was a perfect man, then he is NOT distinguishable from any man and this must possess ALL of mans nature. Note: An Angels nature is completely different from a man's nature.
Thus, if we will use your principle on this post, this is a CONTRADICTION that an Angel is a Physical Being with human eyes, hair, tongue, sweat glands possessing NORMAL human heights, complexion and probably voice and accent and thus a Fallacy and inconsistent.
As a reminder, you wonder how impossible it is that YHWH the Word can put on human nature and have human characteristics and limitations.
I ask again, When Jibril came as a perfect man, did he cease being and Angel knowing that Angels do not have human characteristics?
When YHWH the Word came as Jesus Christ (a man), did he cease being YHWH the Word, knowing that God do not have human characteristics?
Thus in the next page below, I present to you my questions from Islam on what I expect you should call contradictions, hoping that you will be consistent to apply your rules to them.
JimRohn: Thank you for your detailed explanation. I appreciate your willingness to engage in this dialogue and clarify your theological perspective. Allow me to respond respectfully from an Islamic standpoint, while focusing on the core philosophical and theological issue raised.
1. The Request for Internal Consistency Still Stands
My initial question was not about whether the Trinity can be stated doctrinally — I am well aware of the claims regarding the Word becoming flesh, the eternal Father, and the omnipresent Spirit. My question was more precise:
> How can the same being who is said to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and unchanging also be ignorant of the Hour, tired, tempted, and crucified?
Simply saying “the Word became flesh” does not resolve the philosophical contradiction — it relocates it. If “Jesus is God,” and Jesus is ignorant of the Hour (Mark 13:32), the divine attribute of omniscience is compromised in the person of Jesus. This is not a question of rejecting the Trinity outright, but of pointing out that, by its own terms, the doctrine raises unresolved contradictions between divinity and humanity that cannot be ignored.
2. The Appeal to “Trinitarian Logic” Is Theologically Circular
You mentioned I must not impose the lens of Tawhid when evaluating the Trinity. I understand that. But every theological system must still be coherent within itself. Saying “it makes sense because in our view YHWH can be three and one” is not sufficient. If the One Being of God becomes weak, hungry, or ignorant in any person, this challenges the absolute perfection of that Being. Appealing to a special “Trinitarian logic” that is not answerable to rational coherence does not resolve the contradiction — it shelters it.
3. Multiplicity of Manifestations vs. Multiplicity of Persons
You cite many Old Testament passages where God is said to appear in forms or act in various ways — as Spirit, as enthroned King, as appearing to Abraham, etc. Muslims have no issue affirming that God can act in creation, manifest signs, speak to Prophets, or veil Himself however He wills. But none of this logically requires God to be divided into distinct persons with distinct roles, such that one can pray to the other, or one can die while the others do not.
Islam maintains that Allah is One in Essence and One in Person, without needing to become human to relate to creation. He knows all, sees all, and acts upon His will without undergoing change, limitation, or incarnation.
4. Divine Attributes Cannot Be Compartmentalized
You stated:
> “The Word took up limitation, but YHWH remains unlimited.”
This is a serious theological problem. If Jesus is God, then God took on limitation. You cannot divide the divine nature like a pie — some limited, some unlimited — and still maintain that the full divine being was present in Jesus. Either the divine nature was fully present in Jesus, in which case divine perfection was compromised, or the divine nature was not fully present in Jesus, in which case he is not truly God.
In Islamic theology, perfection is indivisible. God's knowledge is not split; His power is not shared; His essence is not incarnated. He does not become less than what He is — not for any purpose, not for any mission.
In Conclusion
I am not denying your right to believe in the Trinity. What I am doing is inviting a deeper inspection: can a being who is uncreated, all-powerful, and all-knowing, truly become limited, tempted, and crucified — and yet remain unchanged in His divine essence?
I respectfully maintain that logical consistency is not a foreign imposition, but a tool for genuine theological reflection. As a Muslim, I believe in a God who is utterly transcendent yet near, who sends guidance, not incarnations, and who is never subject to the limitations of His creation.
I am happy to continue this dialogue in the spirit of mutual understanding.
I suspect you chose to be obstinate with respect to comprehension of plain doctrine backed up with scriptures.
Thus, I will certainly come back to this when you respond to the first post. I want to see if you would apply exactly your logic to it
Here it is below as a reminder:
TenQ: Since you asked the question at the end of this post, I will respond again to you.
If I get you correctly 1. ALL Prophets are ALIVE in their Graves Praying 2. The Earth does not consume the Bodies of the Prophets.
I wish you gave a definite Islamic answer I understand that ALL prophets are in their graves worshipping.
I hope I am correct?
If I understand you correctly 1. Prophet Mohammad would be the first to be resurrected 2. No dead human beings prophet or not have been resurrected as they are in their graves. 3. All dead human beings remain in their graves until resurrection day.
Are my observations correct before I pose the next set of Questions?
I want you to assert that my understanding is correct!
JimRohn: > If Jesus is truly God, how do you reconcile his human limitations — ignorance of the Hour, hunger, fatigue, temptation — with the essential attributes of divine perfection?
If we are to have meaningful interfaith dialogue, it is important that we stay on topic and respond directly to the theological issues raised. I am not trying to trap or mock anyone — I’m asking for theological consistency. If your belief is true, it should stand up to honest questions.
I remain open to continuing this dialogue with mutual respect and intellectual clarity.
Warm regards, Jimrohn
I will be surprised from my experience with Muslims if your intention is the understanding the Christian doctrine of Trinity because I think your problem is looking at God from the lens of Taoheed instead of looking at God from the lens of Trinity to truely understand what Christians are saying about God. As Taoheed, it is impossible for Allah to exist simultaneously in three different dimensions of existence at the same time.
The fundamentals doctrine of Trinity begin with the fact that God YHWH is ONE. Mar 12:29: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" However, from the Scriptures we understand that the One YHWH exists simultaneously with THREE Identities
You cannot impose the limitation of your Taoheed on YHWH because 1. YHWH is the infinite Spirit in whom EVERYTHING consists. He is called Ruach HaKodesh, meaning the Spirit of Holiness. The Holy Spirit is the Shekhinah (the Divine Presence) of YHWH. He is the one who inspires
The Heavens and the Earth/Universe is a subset of Him. He is the Holy Spirit! Acts 17:28: "For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."
Jeremiah 23:24 "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord."
Isaiah 63:10-11: "But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit... Where is he who put in them his Holy Spirit?"
The Holy Spirit is Invisible and is the expression of His Omnipresence, Power and Inspiration throughout the Heaven (spiritual) and the Earth (Universe)
2. YHWH is the Father who is the Visible Image of the Invisible God in the Heavenly realms. He sits on His throne with the Angels to preside over the Universe . We call Him our Father in Heaven.
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple."
1 Kings 22:19 "Micaiah continued, 'Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.'"
Psalm 47:8 "God reigns over the nations; God sits on his holy throne."
Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze."
3. YHWH is the Word. The visible image of the invisible God Everywhere in Space and Time. He appears on Earth as the Personage called the Angel of YHWH in the Old Testament or as a Man to Abraham. Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day..."
Genesis 18:1-2 "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent... Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby." (God appears as one of three visitors.)
Genesis 32:24-30 "So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak... So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.'"
Judges 13:3-22 "The angel of the LORD appeared to her... We are doomed to die! We have seen God!"
The bible says, YHWH the Word became Human.
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Philippians 2:6-8 "Who, being in very nature God , did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
Like I said: You cannot look at Trinity from the point of view of the Taoheed. The nature of Trinity makes everything possible with YHWH.
So, your Question again: > If Jesus is truly God, how do you reconcile his human limitations — ignorance of the Hour, hunger, fatigue, temptation — with the essential attributes of divine perfection?
Because YHWH the Word became Human while still remaining the Infinite Holy Spirit and Father in Heaven. The Man Jesus can be weak without God being Weak. This is because YHWH remains the Father and YHWH remains the Holy Spirit. The Word took up limitation but YHWH remains Unlimited.
YHWH is Almighty because NOTHING is Impossible for HIM.
YHWH The Word became a servant
Mark 10:45: "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Philippians 2:6-8 Though existing in the form of God, Jesus emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant and humbled Himself to death on a cross
I will be surprised if (after all these) you comprehend (from the Christian point of view (I don't expect you to agree) that the One God exists simultaneously in three dimensions of the Father, the Word and the infinite Holy Spirit.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your tone and your willingness to engage respectfully. That said, I must point out a critical issue: your reply completely diverges from the theological question I posed.
I asked a sincere and specific question about Trinitarian doctrine:
> How can Jesus — if fully God — experience human limitations such as ignorance, temptation, hunger, and growth in wisdom, which contradict the very definition of divine perfection?
This question was not meant to ridicule, provoke, or evade — but to invite serious reflection on the internal coherence of the belief that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human. It is a theological inquiry based on the claims of Christian doctrine and Scripture (e.g., James 1:13, Mark 13:32), and it deserves a direct response.
Instead of engaging with that subject, you've now posed unrelated questions about Islamic belief, particularly concerning the status of prophets after death. While I'm happy to respond to those questions separately, they do not address the central issue under discussion: the divine-human nature of Jesus in Christian theology.
To answer your concern directly: No, I am not "inflamed" by theological debate. I simply expect the same intellectual seriousness I strive to offer. If there is a disagreement, let it be settled by reasoned argument, not redirection.
Now, to briefly address your new questions — though again, they are not germane to the topic at hand:
Since you asked the question at the end of this post, I will respond again to you.
JimRohn: 1. Is Prophet Muhammad ﷺ in his grave praying? Islam teaches that the Prophets are alive in the barzakh (intermediate realm) in a way different from ordinary people. The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ informed us that the earth does not consume the bodies of the prophets, and that he is presented with the greetings of his ummah regularly. This does not mean he is physically alive in our worldly sense, nor does it imply divinity or contradiction with Tawhid.
If I get you correctly 1. ALL Prophets are ALIVE in their Graves Praying 2. The Earth does not consume the Bodies of the Prophets.
JimRohn: 2. Are all prophets in their graves praying? Some narrations support that prophets continue a state of worship in the barzakh, but again, this is not comparable to life in this world and does not entail any theological contradiction in Islam.
I wish you gave a definite Islamic answer I understand that ALL prophets are in their graves worshipping.
I hope I am correct?
JimRohn: 3. Who is resurrected first on the Day of Judgment? According to authentic hadith, the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said: “I will be the first to be resurrected on the Day of Judgment.” (Sahih Muslim) — and this is understood in the context of his unique rank among prophets, not divinity.
But again, I must stress: these answers, while sincere, are not a substitute for addressing the original question I asked:
If I understand you correctly 1. Prophet Mohammad would be the first to be resurrected 2. No dead human beings prophet or not have been resurrected as they are in their graves. 3. All dead human beings remain in their graves until resurrection day.
Are my observations correct before I pose the next set of Questions?
Mr JimRohn, You refused to answer direct questions and any answer I give you is considered a ridicule which wasn't my intention. What I noticed however is that when I show you how impossible your position is, it seems to inflamed you. I must commend you however that you were not abusive as some other Muslims when their position seems threatened by superior arguments.
Have you noticed that you seem to reject obvious meaning of the Qur'an and Hadiths whenever they seem problematic to you.
So, I will ask you just one small batch of question at a time and I expect you to answer them directly if possibly with evidence AND maintain consistency by standing by your answers.
1. Is it TRUE or UNTRUE that Prophet Mohammad is in his grave praying? 2. Is this also TRUE for ALL prophets of Islam: that they are in their graves praying? 3. On the day of resurrection, who would be the first to resurrect from the dead?
Thank you for your reply. I will now respond to the points you raised with clarity and respect, while emphasizing the need for a logically consistent and theologically sound discussion.
1. The Analogy of Jibril (Gabriel) Fails
Your comparison between the angel Jibril (peace be upon him) appearing as a man and the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus is a false analogy and theologically unsound. Let me explain why:
Jibril appearing in human form did not change his essence; he remained an angel sent by God, merely manifesting in visible form for a specific purpose. There is no claim in Islam that Jibril became human or took on the limitations of humanity — he appeared as a man, but did not become one ontologically.
In contrast, Christian theology asserts that Jesus was fully God and fully man — not merely appearing as human, but actually taking on human limitations: ignorance, hunger, sleep, pain, and ultimately death.
This is the core contradiction we’ve been highlighting: how can the eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful God become a finite, limited, and mortal being without ceasing to be God? You cannot solve a contradiction in nature by citing a temporary form assumed by an angel — these are fundamentally different categories.
I did not compare Jibril with the incarnation of God. My objective is to ask you questions about the incarnation of Jibril for if you cannot comprehend it by answering my questions, then it is an exercise in futility for you to understand God that is far more complex.
So, please answer my questions and I hope you will be truthful 1. Jibril is an Angel, when he came to Mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel? 2. As a perfect man, did Jibril have saliva in his mouth and does he have teeth and intestines? So also, In the Qur'an, 1. Jesus is a Spirit from Allah 2. Jesus is the Word of Allah cast down to Mary Question: A. When Jesus became a Messenger as a man on earth, did he stop being a Spirit and the Word of Allah? B. Let's assume that the Messenger was killed, does it mean that the Spirit and the Word of Allah was killed?
Please go straight to the answers!
JimRohn: 2. You Misrepresent Tawhid and Islamic Theology Your claim that under Tawhid, Allah is “neither omnipresent, nor omnipotent, nor omniscient” is not only incorrect, it reveals a deep misunderstanding of Islamic monotheism.
In Islam:
Allah is Omnipotent: “Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.” (Qur'an 2:20)
Allah is Omniscient: “And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him.” (Qur’an 6:59)
Allah is Omnipresent in Knowledge and Power (not physically, as Islam does not anthropomorphize God): “He is with you wherever you are.” (Qur’an 57:4)
You confuse physical omnipresence with divine oversight, which in Islamic theology is not limited by space or time. Unlike the Christian concept that necessitates God becoming flesh, Islam maintains that God transcends creation entirely while His knowledge, power, and will encompass all.
Pick any dictionary and define Omnipresence. After, let's apply it to Allah and check if he is Omnipresent. Omnipresence mean being fully present everywhere in space and time. I did not misrepresent the definition.
By dictionary definition, is Allah Omnipresent? NO!
If according to your hadith, AIR is ABOVE Allah and Water is Below Him, Allah is a subset of the Universe! Thus, he cannot be Omnipresent. Sunan Ibn Majah 182 Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"
Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3109 "Ahmad ibn Mani' reported to us, Yazid ibn Harun reported to us, Hammad ibn Salama informed us from Ya'la ibn Ata' from Wakii ibn Hudus, from his uncle Abu Razin, who said: I said, 'O Messenger of God, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said, 'He was in a state of nothingness (or solitude), with air below Himandair above Him, and He created His Throne upon the water.' Ahmad ibn Mani' said that Yazid ibn Harun said: 'the solitude (or state of nothingness) means there was nothing with Him.' Abu Isa said: Hammad ibn Salama reported it this way from Wakii ibn Hudus, and Sh'bah, Abu Awana, and Hisham say Wakii ibn 'udus (instead of Hudus), and that is more authentic. Abu Razin's name was Laqiit ibn Amir. And he said, 'This is a good hadith.'"
What can be clearer than this? Air above Allah AND Air and Water below Allah!
The loads of scientific "mis-miracles" in the Qur'an proves that Allah is NOT Omniscient irrespective of what you Muslims want to believe. Eg. Does the sperm become a baby? Did Dhul Qarnayn see the sun set in murky waters? Did the Samaritan really make the golden calf for the children of Israel? Did some men sleep in a cave for 300 years?
Too many errors show that the author of the Qur'an is a 7th century Arabian man!
JimRohn: 3. Trinity Is Not Rational Merely Because It Is Complex
You argue that “Trinity is rational even though there is nothing like it in existence.” But that is precisely the issue: to assert three persons as one being — each fully God but not each other — is not “complex” but contradictory when examined logically.
Saying “God is one in essence but three in person” creates semantic confusion unless clearly defined. In practice, this leads to affirming:
Jesus is fully God. The Father is fully God. Jesus is not the Father.
Yet there is only one God. This is not complexity; it is logical incoherence, because it violates the law of non-contradiction.
Mystery is not a license for contradiction. Divine nature can transcend human comprehension, yes, but it cannot defy logic — otherwise, the concept becomes meaningless and self-refuting.
Exactly the point. How is it that Abraham, Adam. Moses are dead BUT your prophet spoke to them in paradise?
It makes sense to you right.
Please explain how, Jesus according to the Qur'an is a Trinity of Spirit from Allah, Word of Allah and a Human messenger of Allah? Note: that the only other spirit you know in Islam is Jibril . The only word of Allah you know is Jesus. A spirit is not human and neither is the word of Allah! Also, note that Jibril is NOT the word of Allah!
Please, explain the contradiction according to your understanding.
JimRohn: 4. False Assumption About Allah’s Location You concluded with a bizarre and inaccurate claim:
> “If according to your hadith, air is above Allah and water is below Him, Allah is a subset of the universe.”
This is a misunderstanding of classical Islamic theology. While Allah is described in Islamic scripture as being above the heavens (e.g., Qur’an 67:16-17), this is understood in a manner befitting His majesty, not as a physical location with spatial limitations.
The hadith you refer to — presumably referencing the Throne (‘Arsh) being above water — does not mean Allah is “within” the universe or a subset of it. In fact, He is the Creator of space, time, air, and water. Islamic theology is emphatically clear that:
> “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Qur’an 42:11)
Thus, He is not bound by His creation. This is a conceptual distinction Christianity blurs by insisting God can become a man — a notion Islam rightly rejects as anthropomorphism.
Read the two hadiths again and prove to me that it didn't say air was above and below Allah.
JimRohn: 5. The Core Question Still Remains Unanswered
Despite your diversions and counter-challenges, the foundational issue I originally raised still stands:
> ❓👉How can Jesus be fully God while possessing qualities that contradict the divine nature — such as ignorance (Mark 13:32), hunger, temptation, growth, and death?
None of your analogies or theological claims have resolved this contradiction. Instead, you’ve pivoted to other topics and launched unfounded claims about Islam.
Two bad for you because I perceive yours is a case of deliberate ignorance.
Your argument is like saying, how can physical universe come into being from a spoken word!
I have shown you from the scripture the nature of my God YHWH. He is simultaneously Everywhere as a Spirit He is simultaneously on His Throne in the Heavens He is anywhere else as the Word (Kunfayakun) where Gods Power is to be made manifest.
You and I understand that these Attributes is IMPOSSIBLE for Allah BUT don't commit the error of Generalisation.
As Muslims, we affirm that God's oneness (Tawhid) is clear, consistent, and free of contradiction. We call to the pure monotheism that was preached by all prophets, including Jesus (peace be upon him), who affirmed:
> “My God and your God.” (John 20:17)
If you wish to continue this dialogue, I invite you to return to the original question and address it logically, not emotionally, and without misrepresenting Islamic beliefs.
Warm regards, Jimrohn
All a person needs to reject Islam is the Love for the Truth. Unfortunately, Islam is a set of cascades of lies that you Muslims will deliberately TWIST the plain interpretation of your Qur'an and Hadiths for LIES cooked up by your scholars.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your willingness to engage in this important theological discussion.
However, I must point out that your response did not directly address the core theological question I raised — namely, how can Jesus, if he is truly God, possess limitations such as ignorance, hunger, and susceptibility to temptation, when these qualities are fundamentally incompatible with the divine nature?
Instead, your response resorted to an accusation that I "despise the Truth" and then pivoted to issuing a challenge about logicality. Let us clarify a few important points for the sake of sincere dialogue:
1. The Issue at Hand Is Internal Consistency, Not Emotion or Hostility
My original question was not an attack, nor did it rely on emotion. It was a logical inquiry about internal coherence within Christian doctrine. If Jesus is fully God, then experiencing ignorance (Mark 13:32), temptation (Matthew 4:1), and growth in wisdom (Luke 2:52) creates a logical contradiction — because God, by definition, is omniscient, perfect, and immutable (Malachi 3:6, James 1:13).
To dismiss this as a “strawman” without addressing the actual contradiction does not help clarify the issue — it simply evades it.
I have addressed your problems in the post above. BUT Let me ask you a question.
1. Jibril is an Angel, when he came to mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel? 2. As a perfect man, did Jibril have saliva in his mouth and does he have teeth and intestines?
JimRohn: 2. Claiming You Can Prove the Trinity From Islam Is a Category Error You stated you could prove the Trinity or “duality” from Islam. With due respect, that would be a fundamental misunderstanding of Islamic theology. Islam is founded upon Tawhid — absolute monotheism — which declares unambiguously:
> “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.” (Qur’an 112:1–4)
There is no room in Islamic theology for a division of the divine essence into “persons,” nor for God becoming incarnate or subject to human frailty. Any attempt to extract Trinitarian ideas from Islamic texts would involve misinterpretation or decontextualization. If you believe otherwise, I would invite you to present the exact Qur’anic or Hadith evidence and the methodology by which you claim it leads to Trinitarian conclusions. Assertions alone do not constitute arguments.
You desire a Deity in the image of creations and when you see that the True God has incompatible natures to your image, you throw tantrums.
Muslims believe that truth is both revealed and rational. God does not command us to believe in logical contradictions. If a doctrine asserts that a being can be omniscient and ignorant, or immortal and capable of dying, infallible and tempted, all at once — that is not a mystery; it is a logical impossibility.
God is not subject to change (Numbers 23:19), does not get tired or sleep (Psalm 121:4), and cannot be tempted (James 1:13). To say Jesus is fully God while possessing the very limitations God explicitly says He does not have is a contradiction that undermines divine perfection.
Trinity is RATIONAL even though for God, there is NOTHING in existence Like His Trinity. This is why with the Trinity of Giod, we can understand How He could be Omnipresent How He could be Omnipotent How He could be Omniscient AND With the Taoheed, Allah is Neither Omnipresent, NOR Omnipotent, NOR Omniscient.
As a Muslim, I stand by the clarity and simplicity of Islamic monotheism. We affirm that God is absolutely unique, above all human attributes, and not incarnate in any form. Jesus (peace be upon him) is revered as a mighty prophet, born of a virgin, but always distinguished from God Himself. This understanding is coherent, consistent, and affirmed by the teachings of all prophets, including Jesus himself who said:
> “My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
So rather than trading challenges or accusations, let us return to the real question:❓👇
How can Jesus be fully God while possessing qualities that contradict God's perfect, divine nature?
I await your thoughtful and respectful response.
Warm regards, Jimrohn
Who should be Greater, the One who was Sent or the One Who Sent Him? Who is Greater, the father and the Son?
Who is greater, Your Soul or your Body?
If according to your hadith, AIR is ABOVE Allah and Water is Below Him, Allah is a subset of the Universe!
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your willingness to engage in this deep and important theological discussion. Let us approach this matter thoughtfully and respectfully.
You asked several pointed questions regarding Allah’s attributes and the possibility of Him entering creation. Allow me to respond in a structured manner, clarifying the Islamic view while also respectfully addressing the implications of your statements.
1. Does Allah need to eat? Can He eat and remain Almighty?
No, Allah does not need to eat, nor can He eat. The act of eating arises from need, which is a characteristic of created beings. In Islamic theology, need is imperfection, and Allah is absolutely free of all need (As-Samad).
> “Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of existence… He neither tires nor sleeps…” — Qur’an 2:255
If Allah were to eat, He would cease to be the One who is utterly independent (Al-Ghaniyy) and perfectly self-sufficient — and thus no longer be God by definition.
I agree with you on this as even Angels do not have to eat.
JimRohn: So the answer is not that He "can eat and remain Almighty" — rather, His Almighty nature is precisely why He does not eat.
The implication of CAN HE DO SOMETHING without ceasing to be Almighty is clear. Allah CANNOT, thus He cannot be God.
The God of the CHristians and Jews can eat if He chooses to without ceasing to be ALMIGHTY
Genesis 18:-1-8 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
You just affirmed why Allah cannot be Omnipotent.
JimRohn: 2. Can Allah enter His creation and still remain Almighty? This question presumes that God must enter His creation to express power or love. But in Islam, Allah’s transcendence is not a limitation, it is perfection. The Creator is not subject to the dimensions, flaws, or confines of creation.
To suggest otherwise is to impose creaturely limitations on the Creator — which is a theological contradiction.
Your assertion that “YHWH can enter His creation and still remain Almighty” is internally inconsistent. The moment God becomes subject to the constraints of time, space, hunger, ignorance, or death, He undergoes change — and the One who changes cannot be eternal or self-sufficient.
Here is another question that exposes the Limitation of Allah as He is NOT Omnipresent nor is he Omnipotent. The God of the Jews and CHristians can be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time
Genesis 19:24 24Then YHWH rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from YHWH out of the heavens.
Islamic Taoheed makes it impossible for Allah to be simultaneously on his throne above the waters after the seventh heaven and anywhere else at the same time. Psalm 139:8 "If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol[Hell or Grave], You are there."
God as the Holy Spirit fills the heavens and the earth Jeremiah 23:23-24 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Allah cannot even enter the toilet, he can only know what you are doing inside the toilet isn't it?
Can any Deity that is neither Omnipotent nor Omnipresent be God!?
JimRohn: 3. Can Allah die? Death implies the cessation of life, and life (in created terms) is contingent, dependent, and vulnerable.
I don't know if this is ignorance or celebrate taqiyya. Death is NOT the cessation of LIFE: Death is the Disconnection between the Body and the Soul/Spirit! Death is the Translocation of a person from the Physical Realm to the Spiritual Realms
If this is NOT True, What is the purpose if the Islamic punishment of the grave if there is cessation of life?
Is death the cessation of Life? Does Allah have the Power to Die and YET remain Alive?
JimRohn: In Islam, Allah is Al-Hayy (The Ever-Living) — and not just alive, but unconditionally alive, not born, not dying, not dependent on anything. > “Every soul will taste death, but not Allah. He is the First and the Last.” — Qur’an 55:26-27
So no, Allah cannot die — not because He is limited, but because He is unlimited in His perfection.
Knowing the meaning of death, You have just confirmed that Allah cannot be ALMIGHTY as there are many things he cannot do!
Did your prophet tell lies about Adam, Abraham, Joseph and Moses when he rode the Al-Burak to paradise or explain if a partial resurrection happed with the prophets?
JimRohn: 4. You claimed: “The Tawheed of Allah is like the tawheed of Iblis.” This is a deeply flawed comparison. Iblis acknowledged God’s oneness, but refused to obey Him out of arrogance. Tawheed in Islam is not mere belief in oneness — it is pure, consistent, and submission-based monotheism that affirms God’s uniqueness in His essence, names, attributes, and lordship, and entails worshiping Him alone.
Tawheed is not a description of creation. On the contrary, it is the absolute distinction between the Creator and the created — something that Trinitarian theology blurs.
How many Iblis exist in the Universe? Is he not one like Allah?
Can Iblis be simultaneously in Heaven and on Earth at the same time? Is he not just like Allah in Omnipresence and omnipotence?
JimRohn: 5. “If Allah were to become a man, would He feel pain, heat, cold?” This is a hypothetical that Islam completely rejects. Why?
Because if Allah were to become a man, He would have to limit His eternal attributes — which contradicts His very nature.
So the proper answer is not to ask what would happen if Allah became a man, but to affirm He does not become man, because doing so would mean He is no longer God.
This aligns with what the Bible itself says:
> “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man…” — Numbers 23:19
You are still justifying that many things are impossible for Allah to do! Luke 1:37 "For with God nothingwill be impossible."
Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am YHWH, the God of all flesh; is there anything too difficult for Me?"
Unfortunately, as one of Allah's slave, you admit that his nature make manythings IMPOSSIBLE for Him without making him less than the Almighty
JimRohn: 6. Clarity on the Trinity You stated that “God is Trinity.” However, this doctrine presents profound theological contradictions: How can God be co-equal, yet one Person is subordinate or ignorant?
If the WORD became Human and reduced his power and attribute that He may live within US and entered the world as a represent. The Word is like the Kunfayakun of God sent as a Messenger of His Power and Presence in Creating and making things to be. The Bible says the WORD became Human, this is the One we know as Jesus.
The Father will NOT Leave His throne in Heaven The Holy Spirit will NOT abandon being EVERYWHERE in space and Time. Thus, the Kunfayakun of God becomes the Messenger of God.
A mundane example: Your Soul is YOU, your Body is YOU But Your Body runs Errand for you Soul
JimRohn: How can the Son die, while the Father remains, yet both are the same essence?
You disappoint me with your understanding of spiritual things. In Islam, is death a form of non-existent annihilation or a translocation ?
JimRohn: How can the eternal God be born, tempted, or limited? These are not mysteries to be accepted blindly. They are contradictions that conflict with the definition of divinity.
If Allah doesn't limit his attribute, can you see him? Id Allah doesn't limit his attributes, do you think the Angels can behold him? Don't forget that your prophet said you will see your Lord as clearly as you see the moon.
It is understandable your fears as Allah cannot enter his creation without ceasing to be Almighty. YHWH can enter His creation without ceasing to be Almighty.
By His choice he came to represent us Humanity that He may legally become our Ransom from the Fire of Hell. The Pre-Existent WORD became Human John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
JimRohn: 7. Conclusion: Divine Simplicity is Not a Limitation
You said we want a God “so simple to comprehend.” But the simplicity of Islamic monotheism is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of clarity, consistency, and transcendence.
Islam affirms that:
God is One, Unique, Eternal
He does not become His creation
He does not hunger, tire, or die
He is perfectly just, merciful, and wise
He sends prophets, not pieces of Himself
This is not a small view of God — this is a majestic, rational, and exalted view of God.
We invite you, with full respect, to reexamine whether the idea of a God-man aligns with the consistent teaching of the prophets and with the unchanging perfection that God must have by definition.
Let us seek the truth together, not through emotional arguments or hypothetical speculations, but by affirming what God has revealed about Himself clearly and purely.
With sincerity and respect, Jimrohn
All these make Allah a subset of his creation Is it untrue that Above Allah is AIR?
Sunan Ibn Majah 182 Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"
same with if you will speak the truth and let iblis be ashamed Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3109
[quote author=NiceLegs post=135626448][/quote]It looks like stone breaker BUT you can only confirm if the plant has stone-like projections at the back.
CreativeOrbit: Islam offers a return to the pure monotheism preached by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) — to worship the One Creator without intermediaries or divine partners.
May God guide us all to truth and sincerity. Peace be upon you.
Muslims cannot do without lies.
Is it true that Christians say that 1. God is ONE 2. God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit
If this is TRUE, who is the INTERMEDIARIES or DEVINE partners with God according to Christians.
Please truthfully answer this Question because it seems that without Strawman Islam is not complete!
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