₦airaland Forum

I have gone out of my way to answer your questions, please answer mine also with evidences.

AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

honesttalk21:
In Quran 3:146 for the Harf and Warsh Quran
قاتَل (qātila) means "fought alongside," while قُتِل (qutila) translates to "were killed."

Both of these phrases reflect real historical and theological truths.

Some prophets engaged in battle, some others faced death in the cause.

These meanings don’t clash; instead, they enrich the overall story.

This is more about style and syntax rather than contradiction. It showcases a variety of expressions rather than opposing differences.

Muslims will NEVER accept glaring Truths even it goes against them.
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "they fought" or "were killed"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
When you take Surah Al-Baqarah 2:140, for instance – "taqulūna" versus "yaqulūna."

تقولون (taqulūna) means "you" (directly addressing someone), while يقولون (yaqulūna) means "they" (indirectly referring to others).

Once again, this is simply a variation in how the message is delivered, not a difference in meaning.

Tell me, how can YOU and THEY be exactly the same in meaning?

Again:
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "You" or "they"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
In rhetoric, Allah often shifts between direct and indirect speech to emphasize a point, offer a reprimand, or tell a story. This choice in style highlights the beauty of the Qur'an, showcasing its eloquence rather than revealing any shortcomings.

Now with your reference to forgetting or forgetfulness Qur'an 87:6-7 "We will make you recite, so you will not forget – except what Allah wills…" (Surah al-Aʿlā 87:6-7)

This verse reassures us that Allah will help the Prophet remember the Qur’an, except in certain situations that Allah has chosen, like:

- Abrogation
- Divine wisdom in reminding the Prophet (pbuh)

It’s important to note that this verse doesn’t suggest any shortcoming; rather, it highlights Allah's authority and purpose in either preserving or allowing forgetfulness.

You seem not to understand that abrogation is a problem for Islamic Narrative!
1. Are abrogated verses part of Kalam Allah or not?
2. If these abrogated verses were never part of Kalam Allah, why were they revealed to your prophet as Qur'an?
3. According to Qur'an 87:6-7, why would Allah reveal a verse only to cause Mohammed to forget it? Does it make any sense?

honesttalk21:
Ibn Masʿūd’s Mushaf & the Muʿawwidhatayn

The idea that Ibn Masʿud rejected Surah al-Fatihah or the Muʿawwidhatayn is simply not true:

Hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as well as the consensus confirm that Ibn Masʿud recited and accepted all surahs.

His mushaf may have initially left them out as they were seen as supplications, not because he dismissed them.

The entire Ummah, including Ibn Mas'ud, prayed with al-Fatiḥah and the Muʿawwidhatayn.

No reputable scholar has ever claimed that Ibn Masʿūd had an incomplete Qur’an.

Ubayy ibn Kaʿb’s Extra Surahs?

The reports regarding Surah al-Khal’ and Surah al-Ḥafd are actually duʿāʾs, not Qur’anic surahs.

Even Ubayy never stated that they were part of the Qur’an to be recited during salah.

The consensus during Uthman’s time confirms that the Qur’an consists of 114 surahs.

Final Word: Has the Qur’an Been Preserved?

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Dhikr (the Qur’an), and We will certainly preserve it.”
(Surah al-Ḥijr 15:9)

Despite all human involvement, the Qur'an has been universally recognized for its consistent transmission, careful preservation in recitation, and unwavering content. Every word is accessible to us, and no authentic qiraa contradicts another when it comes to fundamental beliefs or legal principles. The unity of the Qur'an among all Muslim communities is truly a living miracle.

The question is:
Is the Qur'an word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed?
The answer is NO!

Is any thing I specifically said about Ibn Mas'ud or Ubayy false? I didn't say the things you are discussing above!

honesttalk21:
The Qur'an was revealed in seven Aḥruf. These aḥruf aren't just different versions of the Qur'an; they represent various ways of expressing the same Divine Message, making it easier for early reciters from different Arab tribes to connect with the text.

They didn't contradict each other in meaning; instead, they offered unique yet complementary expressions.

The Ahruf is not styles of recitation BUT Dialects of Arabic sir. The Qira'at is the Style of recitation of the Qur'an in any of the seven Ahruf Dialects.

If Ahruf are different, they would not contradict each other. Like amongst the Yoruba Head= Ori in some dialects but Head= Eri in other Yoruba dialect. Also amongst the English people House= Apartment in some dialects but House= Flat in other English dialect.

To prove this:

Sahih Muslim 821 a
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.

Ahruf is just the Seven Arabic DIALECTS.

honesttalk21:
The aḥruf weren't kept as separate mushafs because the Uthmanic codex aimed for unity by standardizing one version. This effort to maintain unity was well-received by the sahaba and doesn't undermine the preservation of the Qur'an. It was a thoughtful and collective initiative to protect both the community's cohesion and the integrity of the Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted that the aḥruf were various reading styles that ultimately came together in the Uthmanic mushaf, allowing several qiraat to continue. Today, we can still find traces of those aḥruf in the Qira’at traditions like Ḥafṣ, Warsh, Qālūn, Ad-Dūrī, and others, each authentically passed down through reliable chains

The problem is that the Qur'an was revealed in SEVEN different dialects of which the Quraish dialect is just ONE out of SEVEN.


It just means that SIX of the seven Qur'an disappeared!
Otherwise, we should be able to trace even the dialects represented

honesttalk21:
That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

It seems you have accepted that the Qur'an may be different but the differences are reconcilable
With this, my objective is satisfied!

My objective was to prove that it is a LIE to claim that the Qur'an of today is Word for Word, Dot for Dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. I have shown you that Mohammed had SEVEN Ahruf but Muslims canny even present TWO of these seven
2. I have shown you that your Best Reciter's Qur'an is different from the Qur'an of Abubakar
3. Mohammed's Qur'an was collected on pieces of CLOTHES that were not referenced anywhere in the hadiths.
4. I showed you the illogicality of having three best Reciters acclaimed by your prophet, yet none of them were part of the Qur'an of Abubakar.
5. I showed you that the Qur'an of Mohammed contained the verse of breastfeeding an adult ten times (later abrogated to five) and both are absent in the present Qur'an

honesttalk21:
If you feign blindness to your answers in my response then get a secretary and perhaps an interpreter to help you.

I stand by the fact that the Quran used by all Muslims today is identical to what was revealed to prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I have gone out of my way to answer your questions, please answer mine also with evidences.

AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

honesttalk21:
1. Is the one ahruf of the seven deficient in any way? Please state what you know of that which disqualifies it from being valid adoption of thr Quran.

The different words you claim are not divine you try to claim? Then you say they are opposite in meaning.

I cannot tell if the Ahruf are deficient because Muslims have not shown us ANY SEVEN Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed. My argument is not if the different Ahruf are deficient. My question is, where are the other SIX Ahruf of Mohammed as he received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf!?

honesttalk21:
2. Can you show where this occurs even if rare that the contradictory or opposite meanings are irreconcilable within context?

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?
Also it changes the core theological message, laws, or doctrines
Then prove it as not divinely intended to provide depth, not contradiction.

Here are just TWO where verses mean different things
1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?

honesttalk21:
3. Give proof of Allah's promise to Muhammad pbuh not forgetting and how he forgot.
CATEGORICALLY SHOW THIS

Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?

honesttalk21:
Your claim of not being identical is to what degree and in which ways? Stop blabbing and show evidence.

Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.

honesttalk21:
What specifically are the differences of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubai's Quran /mushaf from Abu Bakr's.

CATEGORICALLY SHOW AND STOP YOUR FALSEHOOD FOUNDED BLABBING

Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

honesttalk21:
Are you for real? Your barrage of questions directly or indirectly related to the preservation of the Quran are answered in my post.

It is heart breaking you show deficit capacity to discern them.

Is asking you to show proof of your claims now changing the subject?

Trapped in your lies?

You refused to answer mine

I even dropped earlier questions in other than you answer these two. But as usual, you ignored them to ask your own questions.

Please answer the two questions and I promise to answer yours with evidences from your islamic sources.


.
AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

honesttalk21:
One should really ignore your persistent ego driven irrational remarks and arguments despite clear proof of your folly. Your confirmation bias drawn from some degree of cognitive dissonance is unmatched even by the Devil.

Did you define or explain before sharing your clairvoyance that it will be rejected? You didn't even try and instead defer to other things to hide your shame?

The agreed best student or surgeon sometimes doesn't get all marks; why? Don't you understand why some of Ubai's Mushaf was rejected? Have you shown good reason or reasons why the rejection as part of the Quran was wrong outside a wide claim and praise that he was the best reciter?

Is the one ahruf of the seven deficient in any way? Please state what you know of that which disqualifies it from being valid adoption of thr Quran.

The different words you claim are not divine you try to claim? Then you say they are opposite in meaning.
Can you show where this occurs even if rare that the contradictory or opposite meanings are irreconcilable within context?

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

Also it changes the core theological message, laws, or doctrines

Then prove it as not divinely intended to provide depth, not contradiction.

Give proof of Allah's promise to Muhammad pbuh not forgetting and how he forgot.
CATEGORICALLY SHOW THIS


Your claim of not being identical is to what degree and in which ways? Stop blabbing and show evidence.


What specifically are the differences of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubai's Quran /mushaf from Abu Bakr's.

CATEGORICALLY SHOW AND STOP YOUR FALSEHOOD FOUNDED BLABBING

Your irrational stubbornness comes to play again as you fail to do the work in study to understand and see how your conclusions are grossly flawed.

Indeed Allah's speech is an eternal attribute it's uncreated and separate from the temporary forms it takes. The essence of the Qur’an embodies this uncreated divine speech, while the specific recitations, letters, and sounds that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh are seen as created events that unfold over time.

Think of it like a script. The Author knows every line, but during a live performance, some lines are adjusted for the audience.

Allah's eternal knowledge encompasses both the abrogated and abrogating verses.

Sorry you cannot comprehend the ways of Allah to enable the uneducated have such brilliance and intelligence.

Don't change the subject. First answer these questions if you need responses to your new questions.

It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

yad2eidi:
yes, but most of us used it. i was asking how we missed it because of government

We have used each of these technologies as consumers BUT lack the capacity to manufacture any of them till they became obsolete

This was what I meant!

Obavoh:
I came back from work yesterday to see my Wife’s younger Sister in my house.

I was surprised because no one told me she was coming. I greeted and welcomed her.

I later called my Wife aside and asked her why she did not inform me that her sister was coming to pay us a visit. That was when she broke the news to me that the girl was 3 months pregnant and had to leave the village because of shame.

My Wife begged me and even called the girl to come and kneel and beg me to allow her stay until she puts to bed.
I was very angry at my wife for that.

I would love to help the girl but the problem is

1) My Father-in-law is not aware that his Daughter is pregnant. Only my Wife and Mother-in-law knows.

2) My Mother-in-law has not called to plead with me to let the Girl stay under my roof. My Wife asked me to call their mother to confirm but I think it should be the other way around.

3) I am currently managing a one room apartment with my Wife and 7 children. The place might not be conducive for a first time pregnant Girl. Feeding her is not a problem.

4) I am afraid I would be the one to pay her Medical bills, antenatal and all. When I asked my Wife she said her mother would pay but I don’t believe this judging from personal experience.

5) What if the girl suffers miscarriage or complications? God forbid. I might be held responsible.

Please advise me on what to do. My creator sees my heart that I would love to help but I am afraid. Should I let her stay or send her away?
How do I do this without losing the respect of my Wife and Mother-in-law. What is the best way to help the Girl?

Give your wife one condition:
1. The girl can stay till delivery if and only if her father is aware that she is with you.
2. If they agree, make sure you contact the father directly by yourself so that you don't put yourself in trouble with him

Her father should deal with whoever impregnated her: this is not your problem!

yad2eidi:
how did we miss We missed the CD Technology
We missed the DVD Technology

CDs and DVDs are both optical storage technologies, but DVDs generally offer higher storage capacity and are read with a laser that emits a shorter wavelength, allowing for more data to be packed into the same physical space. DVDs also typically have faster data access speeds.

CD= 700MB
DVD = 4.7GB

These are the main differences!

We missed the Vinyl Record Technology
We missed the Audio Tape Technology
We missed the Video Tape Technology
We missed the CD Technology
We missed the DVD Technology
We have missed the four Generations of Solid State Drive




All because we chose to be a consumer nation!

honesttalk21:
First answer question one yourself and bringforth what your understanding of it negates the effective preservation of the Quran

You will never accept my definitions anyways AND I am ready to go with your definition. So, tell us the clear difference between Ahruf and Qira'at?

honesttalk21:
The recitation of Ubay is not neglected.
He serves as a cornerstone of Quranic transmission, even though the final Uthmanic mushaf didn’t capture every distinct aspect of his personal codex.

As the Best Reciter, some of what Ubayy recites was omitted from the Qur'an
As the Best Reciter, his Quran was different from that of both Abubakar and Ibn Mas'ud

honesttalk21:
You even find in the Hafs ʿan ʿĀṣim qirāʾah, which is the most commonly used today, some variations in word forms or elongations (madd) corresponding with reports attributed to Ubay.

Even after all the elimination of other Qur'an and the loss of six out of seven Ahruf of Mohammed, Hafs Qur'an is different from Warsh Qur'an and different from Al-Duri etc

The differences are in words and meanings sometimes even complete opposites. If you need EVIDENCE, I will show you.

honesttalk21:
While it's true that Prophet Muhammad may have forgotten certain parts of the Qur’an, this was either a temporary lapse that he later remembered or it was a result of divine abrogation, meaning those parts were intentionally removed from his memory. This doesn’t undermine the preservation of the Qur’an because.

1. Even though Allah promised that Mohammed would not forget the Qur'an but he forgot.
2. This argument is self defeating for the claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
This is evident with the Qur'an of the two best Reciters, Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy not being identical and also both different from the Qur'an of Abubakar

honesttalk21:
Whatever verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?”
Qur’an 2:106

And you did not notice that this is another lie of Islam demonstrated in the Qur'an!?

Let me show you
According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. Their is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

You can see, how Illogical the verses it.
It is an excuse by Mohammed for his lapses in remembrance of the Qur'an because he kept on forgetting the verses he himself had dictated to people.
This same reason was the reason for the excuse of the seven Ahruf. Mohammed will say the same verse in different ways because he couldn't remember his first version. Didn't you say that Mohammed was an uneducated man?

honesttalk21:
And never say about anything, ‘Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,’ except [when adding], ‘If Allah wills.’ And remember your Lord when you forget…”
Qur’an 18:23–24

Too bad your tacit forceful evangelism by castigating and faulting Islam has failed. Please go back for more training

If only you choose to find the TRUTH, the TRUTH will find you.

Gabrielshow24:
Keep up the good work. They are so indoctrinated with lies from their sheiks which are so adept at dishing lies based on audience😵‍💫. To the beginner, it's perfect preservation 👀 while to the "student of knowledge" they explain plot holes 😅. We are already used to such tactics, all these 1400 scripts don't work no more!

Thank you my brother!
Islam's problem is bigger than the indoctrination. It is a spiritual blindfolding and enslavement similar to trauma bonding. They honestly want Islam to become true at all cost. They would justify glaring errors in the Qur'an and their religion with their own conjectures to make themselves feel okay.

Gabrielshow24:
I will like to see if any True Muslim will provide definite answers to these👀! Even their scholars have a hard time answering these talk less of the average Muslims that doesn't even know Arabic in-depth and relies on what the "ummah" says😂. If this were so in Christianity it will be all sort of veiled insults towards us but now they suffer such!

JimRohn was the one who accepted a challenge based on his claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

He kept on presenting the Standard Islamic Narrative while I presented evidences and questions that seem to upset him.

He fled the discussion because at the rate I was going with him, he would probably loose his faith. He chose to hold tightly to his scholars opinion.

If only Muslims will ask questions!
SMH!!

Gabrielshow24:
The reason why Arabic is a must is simply because their scholars can always explain away the complexities(contradictions) by using the language 👀. It's then someone will say "Momo wonders and Allah wonders are the same😅.

The internet is the death of Islam!

Indeed, the INTERNET and lately the AI are the disaster that had befallen Islam. All the LIEs that they have been telling over years suddenly is made open to all.

We shall continue to pray for them for their Deliverance and Salvation!

honesttalk21:
You now close your response with your true intent which is that I follow your belief system.

My intentions had never been to win arguments with Muslims but to make them open their eyes to the falsehood they have believed. Only after uninstalling the virus of Islam can a new Operating System based on the truth of the Gospel is salvation be installed.

honesttalk21:
So you see you are not disproving the points in my response because in reality you have no valuable argument against them.

See the thief calling the owner of the house a thief!

You that couldn't answer any questions and who I bombarded with evidence after evidence turning around to say I didn't disprove your point!?

Is the Qur'an of Mohammed by recitation EXACTLY the same as the Qur'an of Abubakar by recitation?
A question you cannot answer with a simple YES or NO!
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
I addressed your YouTube video unless you want to point out actual statements in any of the videos that disagree with my summation.

You did not address the YouTube videos as you never commented that EACH of the Muslims Dawah men said that the Qur'an was word for word AND letter for letter IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed.

honesttalk21:
You see your characteristic nature once flawed to run to another baseless argument. Your claims in science inadequacies have been severally addressed and your usual misunderstanding shown to you.

Don't use this last statement to start another futile discussion with you. I don't have time for that anymore so please stay happy in your misinformed disillusion passed and copied from your fellow apologists.

Answer my questions and stop running from the truth as this attitude wouldn't help you.


All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

honesttalk21:
They aren't new. They are the following questions you use to reject previous adequate answers.

I see you now can no longer express yourself and resort to YouTube videos. Why don't you concisely say what you garnered from the videos?

The videos rightly stress the Qur’an’s remarkable preservation.

The preservation of the Qur'an is praised for its remarkable fidelity through centuries.

You should understand that this preservation necessitates critical qualifications. Foremost is the original rasm in Arabic scrip lacked dots and vowels, leading to a spectrum of interpretations in the early texts. Moreover, while aḥruf (modes) and qirāʾāt (readings) reflect variations within the tradition, they should not be confused with discrepancies; they embody a rich diversity rather than contradictions.

Lastly, the concept of perfect preservation pertains specifically to the authentic text and recitation as established post-Uthman, excluding potential early variants and pre-Uthmanic orthography that may exist.

I see no need answering at this time other questions you probably hope to divert attention from the key initial question of preservation.

You also point to a statement from JimRohn you never scrutinised or cross checked for its origin and reference? This is very unlike how you argue and try to point falsehood at other people's statements

See excuses!

To answer direct questions is a problem for you because your answers would betray the lies you have accepted.

You are not even willing to acknowledge the response to answers to your own question because it betrays your views.

The Mantra of Islam seems to be:
Don't confuse me with the TRUTH because I have already made up my mind.

You would follow the consensus of your Scholars and anyone who claims knowledge than both Mohammed and Allah together.

This is your problem:
Never acknowledging the TRUTH no matter the evidence given.

You asked me to show you where I got the letter for letter and dot for dot claim of Muslims for the preservation of the Qur'an.
1. I quoted JimRohn directly, to you it wasn't enough
2. I then buffered it up by giving you Dawah Guys on YouTube so that you can use your own ears to hear from their mouths: but apparently, you don't care.

Just like the Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an had been debunked, the word for word, dot for dot preservation of the Qur'an is debunked.


Interestingly,
We are just on my first Rebuttal !

If you could not withstand the first, how will you be able to survive the second.


Jn 8:32:
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."


Come to the Messiah for the Gift of Salvation and stop holding on to lies of Islam

honesttalk21:
Jumping to other direct questions before the preceding questions are answered?

Very simply you rush in other questions to avoid accepting your initial proposition or thinking is wrong.

You are unable to discern that the compilation under Abu Bakr accommodated the various styles and tongues then Usman standardised to the best of his ability to one inorder reduce misunderstanding and misinterpretation?

The most reknown professors despite their excellence are not immune to forgetting even for a brief time. This is perfectly human and natural.

Simply say you are yet unable to differentiate from your short study and are too overwhelmed or more likely not interested in accepting the folly in your stand point so far.
Don't accept or agree with the preservation of the Quran it will not be any different from your previous deliberate acts to reject the truth.

If you like study and know and if not no matter what you are told you will keep bringing silly arguments in refutation.

All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

honesttalk21:
I have asked you show precisely authentic reference for your statement *the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims*

My claim is about what YOU Muslims say about the Qur'an's perfect preservation and not what Mohammed or Allah said.
Evidences
1. JimRohn (with whom I opened this thread

JimRohn:
Thank you for your questions. I welcome the opportunity to clarify the Islamic position on the Qur’an’s preservation.
......
2. How would I phrase my claim about the preservation of the Qur’an?

Here is the precise claim I stand by:

> “The Qur’an as we have it today is textually identical in its wording to the Qur’an recited and taught by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, letter for letter, word for word — preserved through mass memorization (ṭawātur) and manuscript transmission without alteration in core text since the time of revelation.”

2. Muslim Dawah Guys like Monsur and Farid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOWrLKJoSU?si=JD0Ara-iY9oF09x9
Muslim Dawah Guys like Mohammed Hijab who later changed his mind about this claim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVM5mYOQjIY?si=H0ovXSLlledx7hNS

3. Muslim Dawah Guys like Zakir Naik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIKR2exROTk?si=In4Q7ko3GpT15hQT

4. Muslim Dawah Guys like Mansur


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qclEhVs12Y?si=D5Ttd8QRMBUh_qgK

honesttalk21:
Oh you are now changing your tone as you are unable to understand it yourself and constituting yourself into a monstrous nuisance? Sorry it won't work. You even clearly lie in black and white as you have been doing (ten years later?) So you are just displaying oral diarrhoea when you refer to it in your responses?
Go and deeply study it yourself first then ask humbly and nicely about what confuses you.



What is the problem? You now start to feign why the particular four were recognised and their individual strengths on the Quran? Please go and restudy why or keep shut and stop feigning deep knowledge as you are actually ignorant.

You overstate the truth. Was Ubay discarded or it was agreed and known what was or wasn't actually part of the Quran and what was a separate supplication?

Your analogy with Soyinka is faulty but not unexpected. Kindly tell who the higher and revered authority Soyinka learnt from.



Now you are hopelessly getting confused. Firsr go and understand the meaning of the Quran verse you shared then explain why you refer to it but don't accept Quran 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian? Seems you are now getting terribly desperate and confused.



Clearly showing your poor understanding of what you pride yourself authoritatively in ignorance.



Sadly you are pathetically now confused.
Ubayy ibn Kaʿb was known for his remarkable ability to memorize the Quran, making him one of the top four reciters during the time of the Prophet. But just like anyone else, he too could experience moments of forgetfulness. The fact that was acknowledged even by the Prophet pbuh himself



This answer as stated is deferred to a later time. Can you build a house without first building the foundation?


Your following repeated questions though now rephrased show you have started restudying the Ahruf and Qiraat. Don't be in a hurry but patiently study and learn.

All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

JimRohn:
TenQ,

You are a descendant of fabricators—falsehood runs in your blood. I never expected sincerity or intellect from someone whose lineage is soaked in deceit.

This is because you never knew I had EVIDENCES piled up for your Claims of the letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark IDENTICAL nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Now, fear catch you and you want to flee.

Don't forget, the last thing you asked me was about my RELIGION! What have I said since I answered that question?

Summary:
FEAR has overwhelmed you and instead of seeking the Truth, what do you do?

JimRohn:
I stopped responding because Islam teaches us not to waste words on the ignorant. As Allah says: 'And when the ignorant address them, they say words of peace' (Qur'an 25:63).

The difference between us is while you peddle your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE, I give you EVIDENCEs that show that the Standard Islamic Narrative was a fraud from the beginning.

In the court of Law, questions and evidences are used in determining who is speaking the truth. Unfortunately, here your religion failed.

Islam thrives only when people choose NOT to ask questions nor think about the information they have received.

JimRohn:
But make no mistake—any person of reason who reads our exchange will see who is truly misguided and mentally bankrupt. And it’s not me.

Truth stands clear from error (Qur’an 2:256), and you are the embodiment of that error.

Anyone who reads this our debate will conclude that Islam was beaten hands down with EVIDENCES from their Religious Books.


For your Information
This is just ONE Claim of mine, not TWO claims. You did not even reach claim two before throwing in the towel.

I invite you to the Messiah for your salvation. You have been Deceive by the Al-Makr and your scholars. What else are they hiding from you?

Islam hates scrutiny because it always breaks down when questioned. The debate was to be just between you and I but here you are fleeing.





In the case you forgot where we started from, I will quote it below
I am holding you up to your words.

Do you promise to continue with the debate if I tell you the answer to your Question?

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

I think you should know the answer to this question
I am NOT an Atheist,
I am not a Buddhist
I am not an African Traditional Religionist
I am not an ECK or Grail Message Adherent
I am not a Humanist
I am certainly not a Muslim

I will NOW answer your Question and even MORE:
I am one of those Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ
I Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and thus completely subject to Him
I Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with my Being, Time, Substance and Energy
I Live my life to Please the Lord Jesus Christ in obedience to His will
I am one of many of Christ's Disciple here on Earth
I am NOT even a Pastor or Evangelist at any level!
I guess this should answer your core Question.

My Assignment:
My assignment is to go everywhere to preach the Gospel to ALL Creations so that those who Believe would be saved as those who refuse to Believe are condemned already.
Mark 16:15-16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Why I Engage Muslims everywhere (including on Nairaland)?
1. Because many of them have innocently believed a lie that will take them to Hell fire.
2. They cannot receive nor comprehend the Gospel of Salvation UNTIL the virus of their Islamic Scholars lies are removed

I almost recited the shahada years ago (through Ahmed Deedat) until my eyes were opened to see the depth of lies propagated by the Scholars of Islam to paint it as beautiful and of God. If you can go to Islamic sources, and read exactly what they say, you will find the truth about Islam: thus I made it a mission not just to understand Islam but to understand my "initial Christian" faith.

honesttalk21:
Well I am not looking for a definition but you need sufficient understanding of it to appropriate its significance in line of the compilation. Do go study, at least a year ago you had discussions about it here on nairaland.

Tell me you don't know the difference between Ahruf and the Qira'at otherwise, keep quiet as I wasn't defining it for you. I have asked you as a Muslim to provide a solid definition: ten years later, I am still waiting!

honesttalk21:
Taking the Quran from four doesn't make them singularly authorities or does it? No checks? Come on be realistic. Isn't it possible for them to forget however temporal?

Does your prophet say anything pertaining to Islam without being led by Allah?
So, when your prophet gives an instruction about the Qur'an, you must know that he is led by Allah.
You think Allah and his prophet know why you should take your Qur'an from the four rather than from the consensus of a mob?

Only in Islam does it make sense to discard the opinion of Wole Soyinka in literature for the opinion of the consensus of his students.

honesttalk21:
“I am only a human being, and I forget just as you forget. So when I forget, remind me.”
(Sahih al-Bukhari 401)

Which one should we believe now, the Qur'an or the Hadith
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We will make you recite, [O Muhammad], and you will not forget, except what Allah wills. He knows all that is manifest and all that is hidden."

Except there was no Kitab Allah/Umm al-Kitab in the first place and it is another lie that the Qur'an is uncreated and eternal.

Tell me?
Are abrogated verses in the Qur'an in paradise or not?

honesttalk21:
Al-Suyuti in al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an also reports
"Even senior reciters like Ubayy, Ibn Mas‘ūd, and Zayd would sometimes forget a verse, and another companion would remind them."

But this is contradicting your claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an. If the best four Muslims are unreliable with their memories. How faulty the Qur'an would be!

So, was the Qur'an perfectly memorised by many Muslims or the best Muslims forget the Qur'an?

honesttalk21:
I left out the question on breastfeeding so we don't jumble up things. Let's fully address your queries about the primary compilation before getting into the extensions.

You are examining the letter for letter, dot for dot etc. on what exact premise though?

Don't leave it out as it is well connected. Breastfeeding an adult man ten times was initially revealed to Mohammed and it was abrogated to five times in the Qur'an recited by Mohammed.

Does the Qur'an of Abubakar contain the verses of breastfeeding adults?



DON'T AVOID MY QUERIES
The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

advocatejare:
You’re beating a dead horse.

They should keep deleting our posts and banning us for decades, they can’t bury the truth, if they do it will sprout like a buried seed.

At least, the supermoderators should check if it is true that some moderators are doing Jihad with Nairaland.
LOL!

honesttalk21:
You seemed to imply you know the Qiraat and Ahruf very well. If this isn't the case I implore you to go learn about these very well then we take it from there.

Like I said, I wasn't defining Ahruf nor Qira'at and I am still waiting for you because, you wouldn't accept my definitions anyways!

honesttalk21:
With respect to what you say was not included from Ubay's collection you must understand that what was left out was not considered Quran by consensus. Just as much what was known to be taught as supplication by the Prophet pbuh,abrogated during the Prophet’s pbuf life.

1. Mohammed said take the Qur'an for FOUR and Ubayy was amongst.
2. Another hadith says Ubayy was the BEST Reciter of the Qur'an

But it makes sense that people who are not authorities on the memorisation nor comprehension of the Qur'an formed a consensus to say what should be in the Qur'an and what should not!?

Only in Islam would the knowledge of Wole Soyinka be discarded for the knowledge of the consensus of his learning students about Literature.

honesttalk21:
Do not forget the strict criteria Zaid used that
verses were accepted only if they were written down during the Prophet’s lifetime, and verified by two witnesses (oral and written evidence).

The question remains that the Qur'an was written on pieces of CLOTHES during your prophets Lifetime BUT there was no reference to it thereafter!

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3954
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
"We were with the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) collecting the Qur'an on pieces of cloth, so the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: 'Tuba is for Ash-Sham.' So we said: 'Why is that O Messenger of Allah?' He said: 'Because the angels of Ar-Rahman spread their wings over it.'"

It seems that the method by which these collectors of the Qur'an did their job was by writing the collected Qur'an on pieces of cloth:
Can you tell us why Zaid never mentioned clothes as part of the medium from which they collected the Qur'an from? They mentioned, leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men



There was no criteria during the compilation of the Qur'an by Zaid for Uthman. If there is, let me know. If there was, why would Uthman make a new Qur'an from the scratch?

honesttalk21:
Even Ubayy’s authority didn’t override these criteria. The institutional consensus was prioritized over individual memory, no matter how esteemed.

Muslims override their prophet for the consensus of ordinary men!? This is the problem of the religion of Islam. Allah, Mohammed and the TRUTH doesn't matter to you more than the CONSENSUS of men who call themselves scholars.







YOU DODGED MY OTHER QUESTIONS

If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Mr JimRohn,
Can you tone down your response a little. The Nairaland SpamBots seem to be flagging you

Don't repost exactly your last post. It should go through

JimRohn:
QuinQQ,

To better understand your question and provide a relevant response, could you please clarify the context or perspective you're approaching from? This will enable me to offer a more accurate and helpful answer.

Is this an excuse not to engage him.

At least you know that he's not an atheist and he's not a Muslim.

So, what's your problem!

Me that answered you, you have evaded engagement with!

Sorry Mr JimRohn,
Try and be more gentle in speech. The Nairaland bots probably flagged your post

You asked a question '
The Question was answered very well sparing no details

advocatejare:
Valid question

Na so dem slam me 10 years ban from commenting on Islam section, till date they didn’t tell me the offence that warranted 10 years ban

Seun is a former Christian who has decided hto allow his Muslims moderators to mistreat Christians.

They should all continue

He is afraid of Muslims is an understatement!
I think it is fair to tell anyone his offence if and when their post received a ban!

honesttalk21:
You are no longer certain of your understanding of the Qiraat, though you left the ahruf? Was really banking on you teaching me LOL

I wasn't teaching you the difference between the Ahruf and the Qira'at,

So, please answer my Questions (Five of them)


Don't forget what you said earlier:

....
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

What you have said here is that the Qur'an is NOT identical by words but is Identical in Message, Structure, meaning and recited wording (which itself is self contradictory)

Not identical by words but is Identical by wordings.

Let me assume you mean YES that the Qur'an of Abubakar is identical in words with the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

Again: How come some of what Ubayy the best Reciter recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

QuinQQ:
Not only that, you won't know they later deleted your post because it will first appear for some time - unless you go back and check after some time. What an INSIDIOUS and dishonest way of doing things!

They have done that for me. The text was deleted the next day after I made the post.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep a copy. This was when I began to suspect that those deletions were not by Bots but by Muslim Moderators

honesttalk21:
No, probably not, can you kindly teach me and other Muslims too. Rable rouser who depends on misconceptions if not outright false presentation.

You are the Muslim; after all, you will still say that my definition is not the meaning

Can you as a muslim differentiate between qiraat and ahruf?

honesttalk21:
What I highlighted is not within my answer but atypical of your characteristic mischief.

Allah never fails in fulfilling what he says.

The Qur’an has been preserved exactly as revealed—within the limits of the aḥruf and qiraat taught by the Prophet.

All authentic differences are part of the revealed Qur’an,any non-authorized or fabricated variants are not part of the Qur’an.
Hence, preservation is perfect and this concept is multifaceted.

I hope I heard you correctly that
All authentic differences are part of the revealed Qur’an,any non-authorized or fabricated variants are not part of the Qur’an

Please answer my questions directly:
1. How many [i]kalam Allah exist in paradise
2. Of the about 36 Arabic Qur'an in existence of which Hafs Qur'an and Warsh Qur'an are the most popular, which version is the exact copy of Kalam Allah in paradise.
3. Do you concur that authentic differences are first differences: and differences are deviations from the original?[/i]
4. Can you give me a list of three to five fabricated verses of the Qur'an with solid evidences?


Differences in the Qur'an mean that Allah couldn't protect his book as he promised!

honesttalk21:
You sure didn't read. I imagine you got lost in the responses to your usual charade of questions. Never seeing one question through before adding multiple others.

Don't forget what you said earlier:

honesttalk21:
....
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

What you have said here is that the Qur'an is NOT identical by words but is Identical in Message, Structure, meaning and recited wording (which itself is self contradictory)

Not identical by words but is Identical by wordings.

Let me assume you mean YES that the Qur'an of Abubakar is identical in words with the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

Again: How come some of what Ubayy the best Reciter recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!