₦airaland Forum

QuinQQ:
TenQ don't mind him. He's always asking this hypocritical question. Ok, he's a Hindu. Now what?
Next, he'll bring up ancient history. Comparing apples and cars. Comparing peace-focused Christianity to a religion that has always been bloody, that has been very bloody from it's inception till today!

He had fled my quizzle before as he doesn't like anyone using magnifying glass on their Quran, Hadiths and Sira!
He thinks that Repeating the Same Question without reasoning and engaging with the Arguments make him correct.

Anyone who is not towing the line with his Islamic Scholars are unreasonable and has a deliberate misrepresentation of Islamic sources, a misunderstanding of what words mean, where your entire reply is built on linguistic games, misrepresentation of Islamic history, where ones entire reply rests on a foundation of shallow linguistic pedantry, selective hadith quoting, and a gross misreading of Islamic history, text transmission, and scholarly consensus.

He fled as I began to show him evidences from the Hadiths and Quran that he couldn't deny!

I guess he thinks he can change the subject to something else: lets see!

Do you promise to continue with the debate if I tell you the answer to your Question?

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

I think you should know the answer to this question
I am NOT an Atheist,
I am not a Buddhist
I am not an African Traditional Religionist
I am not an ECK or Grail Message Adherent
I am not a Humanist
I am certainly not a Muslim

I will NOW answer your Question and even MORE:
I am one of those Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ
I Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and thus completely subject to Him
I Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with my Being, Time, Substance and Energy
I Live my life to Please the Lord Jesus Christ in obedience to His will
I am one of many of Christ's Disciple here on Earth
I am NOT even a Pastor or Evangelist at any level!
I guess this should answer your core Question.

My Assignment:
My assignment is to go everywhere to preach the Gospel to ALL Creations so that those who Believe would be saved as those who refuse to Believe are condemned already.
Mark 16:15-16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Why I Engage Muslims everywhere (including on Nairaland)?
1. Because many of them have innocently believed a lie that will take them to Hell fire.
2. They cannot receive nor comprehend the Gospel of Salvation UNTIL the virus of their Islamic Scholars lies are removed

I almost recited the shahada years ago (through Ahmed Deedat) until my eyes were opened to see the depth of lies propagated by the Scholars of Islam to paint it as beautiful and of God. If you can go to Islamic sources, and read exactly what they say, you will find the truth about Islam: thus I made it a mission not just to understand Islam but to understand my "initial Christian" faith.

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Can you as a muslim differentiate between qiraat and ahruf?

honesttalk21:
Of course it is from the time the marks were introduced taking care of the evolution of this.

Remember these marks helped to ensure proper pronounciation was maintained inline with the recitation Quran.

Then you should be able to answer the question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

Both were without marks nor dots nor diacritical marks!

honesttalk21:
Deficit understanding the disciples recorded the recitation of the prophet first in his presence over a span of 23 years then these were compiled in one place.

Uthman later standardised the recitation however this did not eliminate the dialectic and diacritic variants due to the strong ijma.

Nothing lost or added to the Quran finally revised with Muhammad pbuh by Jibril ra.

The truth is working against you bro!

Your evidence said:
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

Did you not say:
"Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded."

QuinQQ:
You nailed it! BTW that post has been deleted. Good thing you responded to it before it was deleted. Definitely a human deleted it and may also delete this one

I actually suspected that it would be deleated, that was why I quickly responded. I wouldnt be supprised if the person you are chatting with is the mod himself. Islam!!!!

Confirmed: It is actually a MOD pretending to be a nairaland bot!


@Seun,
I don't know if you will read this,
A Muslim moderator has been given oversight powers on posts made on Christian section of Nairaland: and he is fond of deleting any post that he doesn't like even when it is not contradicting any nairaland rules.
An example is the post: https://www.nairaland.com/post/135769259


Cc Lalasticlala Nlfpmod Mynd44 Seun Mynd44

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Too bad!
Your evidences worked against you!

Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

honesttalk21:
And your opinion is of what value in comparison? How many papers or books have been published perhaps even in peer reviewed journals by the nairaland character Tenq or the true person behind it?

TenQ is not a prophet, he is a Disciple of Jesus Christ who had been saved from the punishment of Hell fire by the Love of God AND who wishes you to also be saved and freed from the Lies of your Islamic scholars.

honesttalk21:
Angelika Neuwirth states that there’s really no strong evidence to suggest that there was any significant disruption in the text between what the Prophet recited and the version that was compiled shortly after his passing.

The differences exists but not significant!
Okay!!
It therefore cannot be perfectly preserved!

honesttalk21:
Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded.

Correct!
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

This is why the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from the Qur'an of his disciples!

honesttalk21:
Where is your own publication outside your fable rousing on nairaland?

Just as yours, TenQ's publications are on www.nairaland.com/TenQ

LOL!!


Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

honesttalk21:
A reliable number of non-Muslim scholars, including Orientalists and religious historians, have acknowledged the remarkable preservation of the Qur’an, both in its oral and written forms.

Scholars like Kenneth Cragg, William Montgomery Watt, and Angelika Neuwirth have pointed out that, unlike other scriptures, the Qur’an has been passed down with incredible accuracy, thanks to a strong tradition of memorization (ḥifẓ) and the early standardization efforts led by Caliph Uthman following the first compilation of the Qurab into a single Mushaf by Abu Bakr .

They argue that the Uthmanic codex we have today closely reflects what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Even those who are critical recognize that there haven’t been any significant changes to the text, making this level of preservation unparalleled among ancient writings.

This recognition, even from skeptics, underscores the Qur’an’s unique status as a well-preserved revelation in the history of humanity.


Cragg acknowledged the integrity of the Qur’anic text

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time.

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed form early (by late 7th century), supported by manuscript evidence.

No problem, Cragg a western historian says the Qur'an of closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad . Closely reflecting is not perfectly reflecting

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time. Not Fully Preserved

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed continued to change until late 7th century. Editing of the Qur'an stopped during late 7th century

These are all evidences against perfect preservation: don't you think so?



Unfortunately,
the modern Quran closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad is NOT the same as IDENTICAL Qur'an.

Your claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?


As you can see, even the Qur'an of Abubakar is not identical to the Qur'an of Mohammed!

AntiChristian:
The Quran compiled by Abu Bakr is not fundamentally different in content from that revealed to Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam, but it reflects the early efforts to preserve and compile the text. Variations in recitation exist due to different qira'at, which are accepted within Islamic tradition and do not alter the essential teachings of the Quran.

If I get it correctly, the Qur'an of Abubakar is DIFFERENT but not fundamentally Different from the Qur'an of Mohammed!


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
1. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?
2. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?
3. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106
4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Mr Antichristian,
Leaving the mundane of snatching the wife of a fellow Muslim.
A simple question for you sir!
It is you Muslims who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now.

One way of verifying this is by asking this ONE Question:


My question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?



When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.

AntiChristian:
But your God killed himself in Jesus! Just like Sango hanged himself before people started worshipping him.

But your God disagree with it. Who do you believe?

Can you respond:
Why is seducing to marry the wife of a fellow Muslim is not nauseous to you!?

When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.



The Slogan of Muslims is:
Don't confuse me with the TRUTH because I have already made up my Mind!


The Truth sets free

AntiChristian:
At least God no dey kill himself by killing his son!

Even your father no fit kill you because of one kind love not to talk of the Almighty!

Death in Islam doesn't mean translocation but annihilation. Unfortunately for you, your Allah says Jesus did NOT even die.
SMH!

Why is seducing to marry the wife of a fellow Muslim is not nauseous to you!

Mr JimRohn and Mr CreativeOrbit

A simple question for you sir!


My question again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
Hard of seeing, hard of reading or stock in reasoning. You have been already answered before.


In any case your last submission is taken as your submission to the truth of the Quran's preservation.

I hope it benefits you.

What is so difficult with answering a direct question about the word for word, dot for dot preservation of the Qur'an?


My question again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
Ehya, a lot of uninformed, misinformed mumbo jumbo?

What is the Quran? A recitation or printed book? Sorry its not the initial Torah handed down to Moses pbuh.

The root of the principle of the preservation of the Qur'an is not the written Mushaf, but rather oral transmission (hifz).

Do go figure and figure well.


I imagine this is your end post as your imaginary all compassing Quran you claim of prophet Muhammad pbuh never existed anywhere so you can never provide any proof of it.

Fable rouser

I knew that you would want to twist it by claiming that the Qur'an is a recitation.

Check my question again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

Let's say I know you Muslims better than you know yourselves!

Answer my Question Bro!

honesttalk21:
You will stop repeating or rephrasing your questions and seek out the answers yourself eventually.

Does Quran 2:106 not answer you?

You have been answered your second question before and are not blind to read it.

However the onus is on you to show a mushaf of the Quran compiled by prophet Muhammad pbuh in one unit existed.

It is you Muslims who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now.

One way of verifying this is by asking the Question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?



If it is identical, then it becomes a major huddle crossed in verifying Muslim claims.

Islam hates scrutiny because a lot of what they claim is made-up!

honesttalk21:
Is there some coherence or cognitive dissonance problem somewhere that has missed appropriate attention?

It's shameful you first have a problem with prophet Muhammad pbuh a descendant of Abraham not from the Israelite line then now feign a problem with Zaid being the head of the compilation and standardization team?

You don't know that under Abu Bakr, Zayd ibn Thabit was the sole named compiler,with ʿUmar and Abu Bakr supervising and many companions verifying. that others were not named is your problem. That others were not named is your problem?

Can you please for the sake of similar scrutiny all the people that partook in the first and second council of Nicea meetings that directed the course of Christianity?

Under Uthman, a full committee of four is clearly documented in authentic hadith. Where did any of these people raise concerns about the compilation under Abu Bakr?

No early companion, whether of the Quraysh, the Ansar, or major Qur’an reciter criticized or pointed out any flaws in the compilation ordered by Abu Bakr ra. Please what qualifies you to question when you lack depth of understanding the actual arabic the Quran and hadith narratives were written in.

Sadly your colonialists who taught you English have boxed you in too tight for independent thinking outside the limits of some definition.

Then you misunderstand that the core of Quran preservation stems from oral reading, memorization and application of what is said in the Quran verses.

Ibn Mas'ud says when one of us learned ten verses, he did not go beyond them until he knew their meanings and acted upon them.”

Reported in Tafsir al‑Tabari 1:80; graded ṣaḥīḥ by Shaykh Aḥmad Shākir.

Please tell people that used Ubai's Quran in their prayers or you forgot to research that?

Was there no consensus involving Ubai himself on what were in his Mushaf?

Perhaps you should share what you have of Ubai's Mushaf to now be scrutinised to ascertain its true placement in the Quran.

Knowing that a lot of scholarship went into the collection of the Qur'an by Abubakar, Zaid, Umar etc.

1. Why was it that MUCH of what Ubayy recited was left out of the Qur'an?

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106


So, I ask again:
2. Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

AntiChristian:
There's no verse for Jesus or any of his disciples chasing their wives?

Everything erotic goes to Proverbs and Solomon!

And Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines!

At least, it is good that none of them went seducing the Wife of their Adopted son!

CreativeOrbit:
Your response reflects a selective reading of both the Qur’an and the Tafsir, mixed with the common mistake of projecting a modern political ideology onto ancient scripture. Let’s clarify the issues one by one:

1. “The Land was given to the Children of Israel!”

Yes, the Qur’an does acknowledge that the Children of Israel were granted a temporary possession of the land. But that grant was neither eternal nor unconditional. The Tafsirs you quoted—Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, and Ibn Abbas—are not saying what you're claiming.

Surah Al-Isra (17:104):

> “Dwell in the land, but when the final promise comes to pass, We will bring you forth in groups.”

The phrase “We will bring you forth” refers to the Day of Judgment, not to some political restoration or Zionist homeland. Even Ibn Kathir and Jalalayn affirm this refers to the Hereafter, not an earthly entitlement.

This verse is not a divine land deed, but part of a warning about resurrection and accountability.

And again, nowhere does the Qur’an say this land grant is forever or irrevocable. In fact, the opposite is true:

> “That land is for those who fear standing before Me and fear My punishment.”
(Qur’an 26:63)

> “If you turn away, He will replace you with another people.”
(Qur’an 47:38)

So in Islamic theology, moral conduct, not lineage, is what determines divine favor—including land stewardship.

2. “Allah never said He withdrew the land!”

Wrong again. The Qur’an explicitly says Allah removed favor from the Children of Israel when they violated His covenant:

> “But because of their breach of the covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts hard…”
(Qur’an 5:13)

> “And humiliation and misery were stamped upon them, and they drew upon themselves the wrath of Allah.”
(Qur’an 2:61)

The Qur’an is clear: divine favor is revocable. Being the "Chosen People" is not a permanent status—it is conditional on obedience. This principle applies to all nations, including Muslims.

3. Tafsir of Surah Al-Fatiha (1:7) – “Those who earned Your anger are the Jews…”

This is a traditional interpretation found in Ibn Kathir and some Hadith, yes. But again, it refers to spiritual deviation, not a blanket curse on all Jews for all time.

Islam does not teach racial hatred. Jews lived safely under Muslim rule for centuries—in Medina, Andalusia, the Ottoman Empire—unlike in Christian Europe where they were persecuted and expelled.

Let’s also be honest: you’ve conveniently left out the many verses where Allah honors the Children of Israel:

> “O Children of Israel! Remember My favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you over all nations.”
(Qur’an 2:47)

The Qur’an does not demonize Jews as a whole. It critiques specific behaviors, just like it critiques Muslim hypocrisy (see Qur’an 63:1–5).

4. “Monkeys and Pigs” – Who are they in the Qur’an?

This is another often-misused polemic.

Let’s clarify:

> “When they transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them, ‘Be apes, despised.’”
(Qur’an 7:166)

> “And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the Sabbath, and We said to them, ‘Be apes, despised.’”
(Qur’an 2:65)

> “Those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry, and made of them apes and swine and slaves of false deities…”
(Qur’an 5:60)

These verses refer to specific historical groups who committed specific violations—in this case, Sabbath-breaking—and were punished symbolically or literally as a sign. Islamic scholars disagree whether this was a literal transformation or a metaphor for moral degeneration.

But here’s the key point: The Qur’an never says all Jews are monkeys or pigs. That is a slanderous misrepresentation.

Moreover, no verse in the Qur’an equates modern Jews with those transgressors. It is dishonest to stretch these verses into some racial or political blanket judgment.

5. Your Conclusion: “Allah gave the land forever to the Jews”

This is your theological projection, not the Qur’an's position.

Islam does not affirm eternal ethnic land grants. It affirms that:

Land belongs to Allah (Qur’an 7:128),

He gives it to whomever He wills, based on righteousness, not race,

And favor can be revoked.

To use these verses and Tafsirs as support for modern-day colonization, military occupation, and ethnic displacement is to twist divine scripture for political gain.

That is not faithfulness to Allah’s word. That is distortion.

In Summary:

The land grant to the Children of Israel was conditional and historical, not eternal.

Tafsir confirms the resurrection, not political return, is what is referenced in 17:104.

Punishments in the Qur’an target specific groups, not entire races.

Islam condemns injustice and corruption, regardless of the nation or people.

The Qur’an cannot be used as a Zionist manifesto—that’s an abuse of divine revelation.

If you sincerely want to understand the Qur’an, read it in full context—not just to score political points. Truth demands honesty, not selective citation.

Let’s engage with integrity, not propaganda.

Muslims and JWs are the only ones who elevate the words of their scholars above their God Allah and their prophet Mohammed.

It is amusing when presenting evidence from your own accepted sources is called propaganda!


Can you help out a friend of yours who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now. He has been overwhelmed so much because what your scholars have told him is different from the EVIDENCES available.

https://www.nairaland.com/8448350/jimrohn-say-quran-perfectly-preserved

honesttalk21:
Oh! I now concentrated on him when you made serious reference to it not being taken from him ?

Reference not taken from HIM or references not taken from THEM?

See how Muslims tell lies to justify Islam?

honesttalk21:
Do you not have Salim in your response? Why include him obviously because you didn't consider he was dead at that time but forget yourself too often.

Ibn Mas'ud was most likely not in Madinah at the time as some reports place him in Iraq around the time. However, his personal codex not likely in written form was widely known and respected, and would have served as a reference.

You forgot so soon that I was the one who told you about the whereabouts of Salim and Ibn Mas'ud?
LOL!
Did you even know that the Quran was collected during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammed?
Did you even know that there was a difference between the four reciters and the four secretaries who collected the Quran for Mohammed?

You could have given an excuse for Salim who was dead at that time
BUT
There exist no conject excuse you can provide for Ubayy, Ibn Mas'ud and Mu'adh bin Jabal as they were all alive at the time


Unfortunately, Zaid worked alone in the collection of Abubakar's Quran!

honesttalk21:
Ubayy ibn Kab recognised among the top Qur’anic authorities was one of the Prophet’s scribes and reciters. He was not formally recognised as a committee member, he surely will have been consulted both directly and indirectly.

His compilation included supplications not agreed to be part of the Quran for failing to meet the thorough requirements in the compilation.

Muʿadh ibn Jabal known more for his juristic and Qur’anic knowledge, particularly in Yemen was not physically present in Madinah when the compilation began as he was a governor in Yemen.

Now you make reference to a complete mushaf of the Quran that Aisha ra wasn't aware of and didn't mention to her father Abu Bakr? Really now? What lengths will you go to to spew untruths?

If there was a single all encompassing Mushaf why then were all bits of written Quran sought out on different writing material? Don't ignore the recheck among those who had memorized those parts of the Quran?

How futile and false your argument prepositions?

You too have woken up and now confirmed that none of the FOUR best reciters recommended by Mohammed did not participate in the collection of the Quran of Abubakar.

Any two of them according to the law of witness in Islam would have been sufficient.

honesttalk21:
For the rest of your post did Zaid depend on solely the memory of the memorizers or had to have written back up?

He wasn't the sole scribe and surely could not have found all written bits by himself without people working with him? Were Abu Bakr and Umar not well versed in the Quran too?

Neither Ubayy ibn Kaʿb, Abdullah ibn Masʿud, nor ʿAli ibn Abi Ṭalib rejected the compilation done by Zaid? It was also not rejected by the larger public.

Ubayy couldn't have accepted the compilation of Abubakar because much of what he recited was left out of the Quran.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

1. Is it UNTRUE that even though, Ubayy was the BEST of the four reciters recommended by Mohammed yet MUCH of what he recited was EDITED out of the Quran of Abubakar!?

So, I ask again:
2. Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

JimRohn:
Your repeated comments reflect a pattern of provocation, relying on inflammatory rhetoric and intentional misrepresentation of facts.

Such an approach undermines the spirit of honest and respectful interfaith dialogue.

For this reason, I have chosen to disengage from further responses to your remarks until a more sincere and constructive tone is adopted.

Fleeing from scrutiny!?
Just tell me that you were overwhelmed by EVIDENCES contrary to your Standard Islamic Narrative! LOL!

No problem;
Islam CANNOT withstand scrutiny because like in a court of Law, things based on lies scatters with provided EVIDENCES and Questions which reveals LIES repeated over and over again!

By the way, I haven't even gone beyond my FIRST CLAIM that the Qur'an of Mohammed somehow magically disappeared


Too bad:
You are AFRAID that I will use your Islamic Literatures to puncture holes in the Standard Islamic Narrative!



And this is just the first point out of many!
SMH!

You probably were not told that the Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of your prophet!


I am waiting if you feel that I speak unjustified claims!


So, I ask again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

I can attest to it that the church is a good one. They are mostly in northern Nigeria.
1. Doctrinally safe and Balanced
2. Their mission into the interior villages is top notch.
3. Strong emphasis on Bible Studies
4. Disciplined on the average. Few reports of Pastors dating or impregnating church members and so with members

However, this I think is their problem.
1. They have left their emphasis on personal evangelism as they would rather do it with every other thing