CLAIM ONE:The Quran of Muhammad is non-Existent 1. The Quran was collected during the Lifetime of Prophet Mohammed BUT it somehow disappeared.
Your claim is that 1. The Qur’an as we have it today is textually identical in its wording to the Qur’an recited and taught by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, letter for letter, word for word — preserved through mass memorization (ṭawātur) and manuscript transmission without alteration in core text since the time of revelation.”
2. This preservation is unique among religious texts — not only through manuscripts,butthrough a living oral tradition that has continued unbroken to this day, with millions of memorizers (ḥuffāẓ) around the world.
The definition of collection means to compile in a single Book!
Collection of the Qur'an is about preserving a standardized, written compilation in one volume
It is important to note that the Original Quran of Mohammed was compiled (collected as a book) during his lifetime. Sahih al-Bukhari 3810 Narrated Qatada: Anas said, "The Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of the Prophet by four (men), all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai, Mu`adh bin Jabal, Abu Zaid and Zaid bin Thabit." I asked Anas, "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said, "One of my uncles."
Unfortunately, this Quran could not be found during the second collection of the Quran by Abu-Bakr nor during the collection by Uthman!This Quran was collected by the Four BEST Reciters endorsed by Mohammed Himself!
Question: 1. If the Original Quran collected during the lifetime of Mohammed was LOST, can we say that the Quran was perfectly preserved? 2. Can you tell us what happened to this Quran collected in the Lifetime of Prophet Mohammed? 3. Do you accept that this original Quran collected by Mohammed was lost?
JimRohn: Thank you for your questions. I welcome the opportunity to clarify the Islamic position on the Qur’an’s preservation. I will respond to your three questions in order, and then we can proceed to a substantive and respectful discussion based on evidence — not presumption or assumptions of denial.
1. What does it mean that “the Qur’an was collected” during the time of Abu Bakr and Uthman?
This question reflects a common misunderstanding, so I’m glad to clarify.
The Qur’an was fully revealed to Prophet Muhammad ﷺ over 23 years, and it was:
Memorized by hundreds of companions verbatim (they are known as ḥuffāẓ),
Written down during his lifetime on various materials (parchment, bones, leather, etc.).
The “collection” under Abu Bakr (rA) after the Prophet’s death was not about recovering a lost book — it was about preserving a standardized, written compilation in one volume, due to the deaths of many memorizers in battle.
Under Uthman (rA), the Qur’an was standardized in script, to prevent dialectal disputes among newly converted regions. Again, this was not to reconstruct a lost text — but to unify pronunciation and script in line with the Prophet’s own recitation (Qurayshi dialect), which was the primary recitation he taught.
Thus, collection did not mean invention, nor did it involve editing, adding, or guessing. It was a preservation process, not a creative or reformative one. Multiple memorizers verified the compilation word-for-word.
If I understand you correctly, Collection of the Qur'an is about preserving a standardized, written compilation in one volume
Is this correct ?
JimRohn: 2. How would I phrase my claim about the preservation of the Qur’an?
Here is the precise claim I stand by:
> “The Qur’an as we have it today is textually identical in its wording to the Qur’an recited and taught by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, letter for letter, word for word — preserved through mass memorization (ṭawātur) and manuscript transmission without alteration in core text since the time of revelation.”
This preservation is unique among religious texts — not only through manuscripts, but through a living oral tradition that has continued unbroken to this day, with millions of memorizers (ḥuffāẓ) around the world.
I am open to discussing manuscript history, dialectal readings (qirāʾāt), and any reasonable academic challenges — but the mainstream Islamic claim is as stated above.
In summary, your claim is that 1. The Qur’an as we have it today is textually identical in its wording to the Qur’an recited and taught by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, letter for letter, word for word — preserved through mass memorization (ṭawātur) and manuscript transmission without alteration in core text since the time of revelation.”
2. This preservation is unique among religious texts — not only through manuscripts, but through a living oral tradition that has continued unbroken to this day, with millions of memorizers (ḥuffāẓ) around the world.
JimRohn: 3. What if you present convincing evidence that the Qur’an is not perfectly preserved?
If you can present genuinely convincing, verifiable evidence — not assumptions or isolated polemical claims — that the Qur’an we have today differs in content (not script or dialect) from what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, then it would certainly require serious reflection.
However, centuries of hostile scrutiny — from Orientalists, missionaries, and revisionist academics — have failed to demonstrate that any such corruption has occurred in the core Qur’anic text. The Qur’an’s preservation is a matter of historical record and continuous recitation, not just manuscript comparison.
I ask only that your evidence meet the standards of:
Academic credibility,
Authentic sources,
Relevance to the actual Islamic claim (not a strawman),
Distinction between orthographic differences and textual corruption.
I will try my best to provide evidences in such a way that you will genuinely find it convincing, verifiable evidence — not assumptions or isolated polemical claims — that the Qur’an we have today differs in content (not script or dialect) from what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad as long as you are not being a obstinate against evidence.
I don't understand what you mean by not script or dialect. Because the Qur'an was revealed in [b]seven Ahruf and I don't know if the script you mean is the one with and without vowels? [/b] I will use the Ahrufs as part of my evidence but certainly not the scripts.
JimRohn: Final Thought: While we differ in theology, I trust we can engage in this discussion with intellectual honesty. If the Qur’an’s preservation is falsifiable in theory, it is only fair that the Bible’s preservation be held to the same standards — in both text and transmission.
I look forward to reviewing your evidence and engaging further.
No problem! But, I wouldn't appreciate re-interpretations of plain Qur'an or Hadith texts. To me it is like an intellectual dishonesty. If every text should be re-interpreted, then debates becomes meaningless as our dictionary and lexicons must match.
Alright I shall present EVIDENCES one at a time for you. So that we finish one before the other.
I will also appreciate that you answer direct questions as truthfully and to the point as possible.
advanceDNA: See...this topic u opened is central to their religion. because they don't really have no gospel that drives their conviction...so it is like what makes think that their religion or Quran is authenticity ... And that's because the Quran is designed with the premise of the bible and Torah in mind deliberately aimed at claiming superiority and distinction
Their Quran conveniently tackles the Christian faith citing that their Allah does not have a child.....this is done with the known premise of biblical accounts of Jesus as the son of God...
Also, with the premise of the bible and Torah's multiple authors, it conveniently claims authenticity and preservation by claiming an angel gave it as a whole to an illiterate to write as opposed to the bible or Torah with many authors...
This is why an average Mvslim's first aim is to discredit the Christian faith because it is what fuels their faith that their religion is the authentic one.... Without it, they have no religion..... Don't waste ur time
It was a surprise when Islam began to expand and Muslims found that there were major irreconcilable differences between the Qur'an and the Bible.
The differences were so massive that YHWH and Allah couldn't be the same person. If the Bible was correct, Islam was wrong because the Qur'an unknowingly affirms the Bible.
Hence their dilemma. Their only solution was to claim that the Bible had been distorted!
JimRohn made a big claim that the Qur'an is perfectly Preserved unlike the Bible that is totally corrupt.
The aim of this debate is to find out if JimRoh is correct of the claim that 1. The Qur'an is perfectly Preserved from the Original from Mohammed.
Before I give my evidence of the non- preservation of the Qur'an, I will like to ask just three questions from JimRohn
1. What does it mean that "the Qur'an was collected". Eg. During the time of Abubakar and during the time of Uthman? 2. To prevent ambiguities , how would JimRohn want to phrase his claims about the Qur'an andI will go with his exact claims about the preservation of the Qur'an! 3. Even though I honestly think you are a denialist, what happens if I show with convincing evidences that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved?
JimRohn: To the one who dodges clear contradictions with philosophical gymnastics,
You can twist words, invent analogies, and create imaginary metaphysical categories all you like — but you will not escape the fatal blow that reality deals to your theology:
Indeed you are a denialist to the core! It is either you piece by piece dismantle my argument and answer my questions otherwise, it is a complete waste of time discussing with you!
AGAIN: I will answer just the first part to prove to you that you are an unrepentant deliberate and confirmed Denialist! Prove me wrong! No long grammar, Address the issue at stake!
JimRohn: Your emotional outburst and ad hominem tantrum only confirm what’s been clear from the start: when reason fails, you resort to insult. You’ve abandoned rational argument and now accuse me of "willful ignorance" while dodging every logical challenge I’ve placed before you.
You give the impression of one who just heard of the English word from the dictionary and decides to use it whether he understand them or not. Same way when you began to throw around words like metaphysical and ontological without knowing their meanings.
JimRohn: Let me respond in kind—without theatrics, just truth. 1. You Still Don’t Understand What a Contradiction Is You shouted: > “A soul can be immortal AND a body can be mortal.” And I already agreed—because they are two different components of one being. There’s no contradiction in Moses having a mortal body and an immortal soul—because those are distinct parts.
You are the one who doesn't know what a contradiction is and you give examples in similitude to " An Orange is contradictory to an Apple" and you fly with it as truth.
At least, here you agree that A Human Being of Identity AAA = BODY A Human Being of Identity AAA = SOUL
Thus the BODY and SOUL are distinct parts of the same Human Identity AAA and THUS, the SOUL can be Immortal while the BODY is Mortal Is this correct?
JimRohn: Now compare that to your doctrine: You claim Jesus is one person—not two. And this one person is: Fully God (eternal, omniscient, untemptable) Fully man (mortal, ignorant, tempted)
That’s not two components with different roles. That’s one subject with contradictory attributes. And unlike body and soul, divinity and humanity are metaphysically exclusive.
Let me test your Comprehension
Using the same Argument
A Being of Identity Jesus = THE WORD A Being of Identity Jesus = MAN
Thus the HUMAN andTHE WORD are distinct parts of the same Identity Jesus and THUS, THE WORD can be Immortal while the HUMAN is Mortal Is this correct?
JimRohn: You still haven’t answered: > When Jesus hungered, did God hunger? > When Jesus said, “I don’t know the Hour,” did God not know? > When Jesus died, did God die? You dodge. You spin. You name-call. But you don’t answer—because the only options are: 1. The divine lost divine attributes (so no longer God) 2. The human was just an illusion (so no real incarnation) 3. You affirm contradictions (so logic is dead)
Wrong Question: When the Body of the Human Jesus hungered, did the WORD Hunger? NO! When the Body of the Human Jesus died, did the WORD Die? NO! When the Body of the Human Jesus felt PAIN, did the WORD feel Pain? NO!
So, answer your own question again When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" died, did the SOUL die? When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" was Buried, was the SOUL Buried? When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" was Cut, was the SOUL Cut?
If your answers are NO: then resolve the CONTRADICTIONS if you think these are contradictions!
Again: 1. When Jibril INCARNATED as a perfect man, did he cease being an Angel? 2. Did the INCARNATED Jibril have the characteristics of a Man or the Characteristics of Angels ? In similar manner: 3. When the WORD INCARNATED as Jesus the Man, Did He cease being God?
I can almost predict your answers: And your preemptive response is why I call you a Denialist as by nature, you will deny the above and repeat your questions borne out of gross ignorance.
I will answer just the first part to prove to you that you are an unrepentant deliberate and confirmed Denyalist! Prove me wrong!
JimRohn: Your emotional outburst and ad hominem tantrum only confirm what’s been clear from the start: when reason fails, you resort to insult. You’ve abandoned rational argument and now accuse me of "willful ignorance" while dodging every logical challenge I’ve placed before you.
You give the impression of one who just heard of the English word from the dictionary and decides to use it whether he understand them or not. Same way when you began to throw around words like metaphysical and ontological without knowing their meanings.
JimRohn: Let me respond in kind—without theatrics, just truth. 1. You Still Don’t Understand What a Contradiction Is You shouted: > “A soul can be immortal AND a body can be mortal.” And I already agreed—because they are two different components of one being. There’s no contradiction in Moses having a mortal body and an immortal soul—because those are distinct parts.
You are the one who doesn't know what a contradiction is and you give examples in similitude to " An Orange is contradictory to an Apple" and you fly with it as truth.
At least, here you agree that A Human Being of Identity AAA = BODY A Human Being of Identity AAA = SOUL
Thus the BODY and SOUL are distinct parts of the same Human Identity AAA and THUS, the SOUL can be Immortal while the BODY is Mortal Is this correct?
JimRohn: Now compare that to your doctrine: You claim Jesus is one person—not two. And this one person is: Fully God (eternal, omniscient, untemptable) Fully man (mortal, ignorant, tempted)
That’s not two components with different roles. That’s one subject with contradictory attributes. And unlike body and soul, divinity and humanity are metaphysically exclusive.
Let me test your Comprehension
Using the same Argument
A Being of Identity Jesus = THE WORD A Being of Identity Jesus = MAN
Thus the HUMAN andTHE WORD are distinct parts of the same Identity Jesus and THUS, THE WORD can be Immortal while the HUMAN is Mortal Is this correct?
JimRohn: You still haven’t answered: > When Jesus hungered, did God hunger? > When Jesus said, “I don’t know the Hour,” did God not know? > When Jesus died, did God die? You dodge. You spin. You name-call. But you don’t answer—because the only options are: 1. The divine lost divine attributes (so no longer God) 2. The human was just an illusion (so no real incarnation) 3. You affirm contradictions (so logic is dead)
Wrong Question: When the Body of the Human Jesus hungered, did the WORD Hunger? NO! When the Body of the Human Jesus died, did the WORD Die? NO! When the Body of the Human Jesus felt PAIN, did the WORD feel Pain? NO!
So, answer your own question again When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" died, did the SOUL die? When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" was Buried, was the SOUL Buried? When the Body of the Human Identity "AAA" was Cut, was the SOUL Cut?
If your answers are NO: then resolve the CONTRADICTIONS if you think these are contradictions!
Again: 1. When Jibril INCARNATED as a perfect man, did he cease being an Angel? 2. Did the INCARNATED Jibril have the characteristics of a Man or the Characteristics of Angels ? In similar manner: 3. When the WORD INCARNATED as Jesus the Man, Did He cease being God?
I can almost predict your answers: And your preemptive response is why I call you a Denialist as by nature, you will deny the above and repeat your questions borne out of gross ignorance.
Bigsam99: Ukraine should collect their 6,000 bodies of fallen soldiers from Russia and pay proper compensation to their families instead of doing one eye spider Web that will not save their 5 blasts in Russia hands. I heard Russia has now started attacking Sumy and Dnipro making it 6. Whilst Ukraine is busy grabbing headlines with spider attacks, Russia is silently winning the real war.
Is it true that Russia has 40,000 more bodies of Ukrainian soldiers?
You just swallow Russian propaganda line hook and sinker without even thinking it through.
Can you please show one Ukrainian document that claimed that they couldn't pay compensation for their dead solderers?
But you ran away with the news because it sweet for your belle! SMH!
Ukrainians say that Russian government sent Bodies that were DEFINITLY not Ukrainian to them to collect and they said NO!
Is it UNTRUE that Ukraine has a lot of Cash from Donors, the only thing they lack is Soldiers?
WriterrNg: So you mean Russia has only 500k troops left and is still occupying those territories?
Because Russia total number of active duty troops is 1.5 million.
Khai! Why do you tell blatant LIES with a straight face?
The ignorant you doesn't know that casualties in war means killed AND wounded. Some of the wounded will return back to the front lines in 3-4 months. It means off the battle field. SMH!
Can you please show me exactly where I said such!?
Kingsnairaland: You can say this because you don't know military tactics
Mother Russia is attacking with devastating weapons watch the video only two person can be at the hitting point then Russia brings like ten or more military vehicles that is filled with missiles then line them up and blow up a city they will be doing this till the city is brought to the ground
Russia is not attacking with bodies so you don't know how they fight unless you only believe cnn Or lie to yourself
After the city Is destroyed then few go in and plant flag then if any Ukraine come back there then it 50 50 fight you can guess who wins
The problem nato don't fight like this and they don't have that amount of weapons to waste on blowing living and non living things up
So continue to lie to yourself while we know Russian tactics
It is easy to gauge the truth.
In the first year of the war, Russia was gaining hundreds of square km per week. Now, in the last two whole years, they have made marginal progress but with lots of casualties for it.
By now, small Ukraine should have collapsed but here they are still standing!
Anyone defending Russia against small Ukraine is a Narcissist!
Hate USA or Europe if you Must, but what concerns Ukraine who never attacked Russia instead it was Russia fermenting civil war in Ukraine. It was Russia always interested in annexing Ukrainian lands. Cremia is a good example!
WriterrNg: Russia has 1 million casualties but is occupying Ukraine. Ukraine has only 600,000 casualties, so what happened to the Ukrainian soldiers defending those occupied lands?
Since the war began, who has mobilized more than 5 times? Who keeps complaining about shortage of troops?
Is there any trick in the book Zelensky hasn't tried to get NATO troops to come in and fight for him? Would he do that if Ukraine had only 600,000 casualties.
Why has Ukraine's population dropped from 40 million to 15 million while Russia still remains 144 million, since Ukraine has less casualties than Russia?
Like i keep saying, only retards support Ukraine. It's like a requirement.
You forget that even though Russia has lost more men, lost more tanks, lost more artillery they are at least 6 to 8 times bigger that Ukraine in every ramifications.
It is thus understandable for Ukraine to lack man power. Interestingly, what they lack in man power, they have in weapons and innovation, this is why Russia still looses woefully on the battlefield in terms of men for tiny gains in land acquisition.
JimRohn: Your entire reply is a parade of arrogance, willful ignorance, and circular reasoning cloaked in mock sincerity. Let’s strip it down piece by piece and expose the intellectual bankruptcy of your claims.
🔹 1. “You are disrespecting Allah by interpreting His words”
This is perhaps the most laughable part of your entire rant. You pretend to be so concerned about the “honor of Allah” while denying the Qur’an and His final Prophet (ﷺ). Your sudden piety is hypocrisy in its purest form.
If you think quoting a verse means no contextual or linguistic understanding is needed, then your entire religion is a house of cards. Are you suggesting that every verse—no matter the audience, timeframe, or usage—is to be read like a fortune cookie? That’s not reverence. That’s biblical literalism gone mad.
The Qur’an does not confirm the corrupted Bible, it confirms what originally came from Allah—not what you have today, filled with human insertions, contradictions, and missing authors (your own scholars say this, not us). Quoting verses like 7:157 and 2:89 in isolation and pretending they affirm the modern Bible is either delusion or dishonesty—likely both.
Then for once, lets be able to hear what Allah is saying without your re-interpretations. Allah is not a toddler whose words are not clear.
Reaffirming your standard islamic narrative doesn't make it true. It just confirms that you are manufacturing excuses for your wicked slave master: it called trauma bonding!
JimRohn: 🔹 2. You ask: “What are the names of the two Books of Allah in 7:157?”
Only Muslims claim that their hand written scripture is from Allah! Is the Qur'an not the speech of Allah? Is the Bible the Speech of Allah?
JimRohn: 🔹 3. “If the Qur’an confirms what they have, does it confirm corruption?”
Absolutely not. Your error lies in your failure to grasp the difference between “tasdiq” (confirmation) and “tafsil” (full validation).
🔸 Tasdiq means confirmation of truths that are still present—not blind acceptance of everything between your man-made covers.
Even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown admit the textual corruption of your scriptures. So your demand that Islam accept the entirety of a corrupted text or reject all of it is a false dichotomy—a logical fallacy unworthy of a serious discussion.
So, Logically if I confirm a fake currency, I am only confirming the part of it that is correct.
Islamic logic 101!
LOL
JimRohn: 🔹 4. “When were the scriptures distorted? I want dates!”
You're asking “when” something occurred that your own scholars can’t precisely date. Are you denying that biblical textual corruption exists unless we can timestamp every edit? By that logic, if I don’t know the exact day Judas betrayed Jesus, then it never happened.
Let me educate you:
The ending of Mark (16:9–20) is a later forgery. Christian scholars agree.
The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) is a Trinitarian fabrication.
The Book of Hebrews is anonymous and contradicts Levitical Law.
The Council of Nicaea (325 CE) established divinity doctrines never preached by Jesus.
This is documented history—not Muslim conspiracy.
So don’t play dumb. The corruption is cumulative. Like spoiled milk, it decays over time.
The scriptures were corrupted BEFORE Allah revealed the Qur'an BUT Allah was IGNORANT of it till you Modern Muslim scholars discovered it.
It speaks well of Allah's knowledge.
JimRohn: 🔹 5. “The Qur’an was written by hand too!”
This is an attempt at false equivalency.
Yes, the Qur’an was written by hands—but under direct supervision, memorization, and transmission from the Prophet ﷺ and his Companions. The Qur’an is mutawatir—mass transmitted, verified by thousands, recited word-for-word across the globe for 14 centuries. No council voted it into existence. No Roman emperor dictated its canon. No one inserted verses centuries later.
Really, then let's confirm this error of the perfect preservation of the Qur'an of you can stand the truth!
Gospel of Luke: “It seemed good to me also…” – Luke 1:3 (your author admits he’s writing his own version)
So don’t compare divinely preserved oral and written revelation with your patchwork quilt of Greco-Roman hearsay.
The book of Mark is anonymous nut is was written by a man called Mark The book of Matthew is anonymous nut is was written by a man called Mathew The book of Luke anonymous but is was written by a man called Luke
But Allah affirms these books!?
Who wrote the Qur'an? Was it Mohammed, Abubakar, Uthman or the Government of Egypt who adopted the Hafs Qur'an?
Don't tell me about Islamic traditions.
JimRohn: 🔹 6. “The Prophet confirms the Scripture they had!”
Yes—he confirms what was originally from Allah, not your Greek-influenced, Pauline-tinged gospel according to anonymous scribes.
Even your own book says the Jews corrupted the scripture:
> Jeremiah 8:8 – “How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
You quote verses from the Qur’an with zero comprehension. You pretend every reference to “Torah” or “Injeel” means endorsement of the exact books sitting on your shelf—as if Allah didn’t warn about corruption, tampering, and hiding the truth.
At least from the corrupted books of the Jews and the Christians, Mohammed's name should appear.
Please can you show me?
JimRohn: 🔹 7. You accuse Muslims of lying to defend the Qur’an? Projection at its finest. The lies are yours:
You lie about what “confirm” means. You lie about the Qur’an affirming your entire book.
You lie about the Qur’an being like the Bible.
You lie about early Church councils being irrelevant to scriptural distortion.
Islam doesn’t need to lie. The Qur’an exposes you. You’re just upset it doesn’t bend to your manipulated scriptures and man-made dogmas.
🔚 Final Words:
You demand “clear words” from Allah, yet when He says “Woe to those who write the book with their hands,” you play dumb.
You treat the Qur’an like it should validate your man-altered texts—but Allah doesn't submit to Rome or the pen of Paul.
> You want confirmation for your corruption? That’s like asking a judge to endorse a forged contract.
Until you can prove:
that your Gospels were written by eye-witnesses (you can’t),
that your canon was divinely preserved (it wasn’t),
and that your scripture was not edited by councils (it was),
you are in no position to lecture Muslims on “truth” or “clarity.”
May Allah guide those who seek truth, and expose those who hide it.
I could almost cry.
More than 90% of your Hadiths are Daif and Maudu yet Islam is not a religion of Lies?
When Allah can't even speak good clear language again , whose fault
JimRohn: Your reply is yet another display of mockery dressed up as theology, memes replacing meaning, and sarcasm substituting scholarship. So let me respond without the emojis and playground taunts—with Quranic clarity and unapologetic truth.
🔹 1. You Mock the Word “Tasdīq” — and Expose Your Own Ignorance
Yes, “tasdīq” lexically means "confirmation, attestation, ratification." But Qur’anic usage is contextual, not wooden literalism.
> Qur'an 5:48: “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming (muṣaddiqan) what was before it and **as a criterion (muhayminan) over it...”
So the tafsir (explanation) of scholars like Ibn Kathir and Al-Tabari is crystal clear:
> The Qur’an confirms the original truth that came before—not the corrupt versions Jews and Christians altered.
This destroys your claim that tasdīq = blind ratification. You’re either unable to understand context, or unwilling. Either way, you’re wrong.
You have said it all Tasdiq has been re-interpreted to conform to the interpretation of the Scholars of Islam.
It is the reason why you cannot be trusted.
Let's test the Qur'an if it is qualified to be a criterion over the scripture of the Jews and Christians 1. What is the true name of Abraham in the Qur'an? Is it إِبْرَاهِيم (Ibrāhīm) or إِبْرَاهَام (Ibrāhām)? 2. According to Allah, who is the man called Israel? 3. Which servant of Allah was taken to then farthest mosque?
Talk is cheap!
JimRohn: 🔹 2. You Confuse the “Furqan” with the Whole Bible — That’s Desperation
You appeal to the word “Furqan” being applied to Moses and Aaron’s scripture. So what?
> Yes — the Torah was Furqan before it was corrupted. Yes — the Qur’an is Furqan and remains uncorrupted.
The designation of “Furqan” doesn’t mean every scripture today is still Furqan. By your logic, since a torch was once lit, it must still be burning. Nonsense.
Here’s what you ignored:
Qur’an 2:75 – “Do you (Muslims) still expect them to believe you while a group of them used to hear the Word of Allah and then knowingly distort it after understanding it?”
Qur’an 2:79 – “Woe to those who write the book with their own hands and say ‘This is from Allah.’”
If the earlier scriptures are still protected and unaltered, explain why Allah accuses people of writing fake scripture.
You can’t.
You just pick random words (“Reminder,” “Furqan”) and use them without context like buzzwords in a meme war.
Did I not give you evidence from the words of Allah about the fact that the Furqan refer to all scriptures. Of course, you don't believe in Allah one bit. You believe in Ibn Kathir and Shabir Ali more that Allah and your prophet.
Allah accused you Muslims for writing the fake scripture. I asked you, was the Qur'an written by Muslim hands? Did they claim the words are from Allah? Sorry, Allah refers to you Muslims corrupting the Qur'an.
JimRohn: 🔹 3. “Did Allah Fail to Protect His Books?”
No—Allah protected the original revelations when they were revealed. But He never promised to preserve all scriptures forever—until the Qur’an.
Let’s quote the verse you twisted:
> Qur’an 15:9 – “Indeed, We have revealed the Reminder (al-dhikr), and We will certainly preserve it.”
This verse is explicitly about the Qur’an, not the Bible or Torah. All classical tafsir agree.
So your question—“Did Allah fail to protect His books?”—is like asking:
> “If you had an older version of software that was corrupted, and now you release the final secure version with protection, did you fail before?”
No—the earlier versions were provisional, meant for a time and people, and corrupted by those people. Only the final version—the Qur’an—was promised eternal protection.
You conflate different revelations, time periods, and audiences—because that’s the only way to cling to your failing argument.
Allah has 140,000 thousand prophets with a library of at least 40,000 but Allah could only protect one book (the Qur'an) put of these numbers. Indeed, Allah is the almighty librarian!
JimRohn: 🔹 4. “Ask the People of the Reminder (Qur’an 21:7)”
Another classic Christian misquote.
The verse says:
> “So ask the people of the Reminder (Ahl al-Dhikr) if you do not know.”
This doesn’t mean affirm everything they say. It means to ask those who were informed previously if you are ignorant—about what came before, not as a confirmation of current corrupt texts.
Moreover, the “Reminder” in their possession was what remained of God’s message, not the corrupted volumes Christians today parade around.
Even then, Qur’an 2:101 says:
> “A party of those who were given the Scripture threw the Book of Allah behind their backs…”
So stop cherry-picking verses. The Qur’an doesn’t trust all of them. It exposes many of them for corruption.
You assume repeating exactly what you want to hear will suddenly convert it into the truth! LOL!
What exactly did Allah say?
Oh, Allah doesn't mean that, he means the Scripture that remains to be corrupted.
See how the lying pen of you and your scholars have made the Qur'an and Allah a lie!
JimRohn: 🔚 Final Blow: Your Whole Foundation Is Built on a Fallacy
You keep screaming:
> “See! It says Torah and Gospel! So your Qur’an affirms our Bible!”
No. That’s like saying:
> “You said ‘Jesus’! That must mean you accept everything we say about him!”
Not at all.
The Qur’an refers to:
The original Torah (Tawrat) revealed to Moses,
The original Gospel (Injeel) given to Jesus,
Not your current canon chosen by Roman councils and tampered by scribes over centuries.
So let me be crystal clear:
🔸 The Qur’an confirms the revelation sent to Moses and Jesus. 🔸 It does not confirm the current Bible which contains:
Dozens of forged letters (like 2 Peter),
Anonymous Gospels contradicting each other,
Roman Trinitarian theology invented long after Christ.
Your entire argument collapses under scrutiny. All you’re left with are cheap jokes, dictionary screenshots, and out-of-context verses.
If your religion were so strong, you wouldn’t need mockery and manipulation to defend it. But Islam stands unshaken, because the Qur’an exposes corruption and preserves truth.
> May Allah humiliate falsehood and elevate the truth, even if the disbelievers hate it.
Again, I say, we should debate on the preservation of the Qur'an and let's see if the Qur'an is preserved.
JimRohn: Your reply once again displays more sarcasm than substance, more emotion than exegesis, and more memes than theology. Let’s clean up the intellectual mess you’ve left behind. 🔹 1. "Abraham, Moses, Jesus Were Muslims – But Where Did They Say the Holy Spirit is an Angel?"
You’re confusing yourself with your own flawed logic.
Islam teaches that every prophet submitted to God (Allah)—this is the definition of a Muslim. It doesn't mean they all spoke Arabic or used later terminologies.
Now you ask:
> "Where did Abraham or Jesus say the Holy Spirit is an angel?" Here’s the rebuttal: Where did ANY prophet say the Holy Spirit is God?
> Did Abraham say: “Worship the Holy Spirit”? Did Moses say: “The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity”?
No prophet ever did. So by your own criteria, your belief is crushed.
The Qur’an is the final clarification, and it states explicitly: .....
Islam teaches that Every prophet is a Muslim, it question was obvious AT least ONE of them will insinuate that Jibril is the Holy Spirit!
Who amongst them: just one is enough?
This is the question.
JimRohn: 🔹 2. The “Torment of the Grave” Hadith – Your Strawman Burns Again
Let’s break it down since you clearly didn’t read your own citation.
You quote:
> "Two old Jewish women said the dead are tormented… The Prophet ﷺ said: They spoke the truth."
And then you mockingly say:
> "See? He copied it from them!"
What a lazy and self-defeating argument.
First, the Prophet ﷺ corrected his own assumption after revelation confirmed the reality. That’s called honesty—not blind copying.
Second, if a Jewish woman says 2+2=4, and the Prophet agrees—does that mean he copied her? No. Truth remains truth regardless of who states it
Didn't I show you evidence from your Qur'an that Mohammed used to copy from the Jews? You said they were harmless traditions he copied! But then I showed you that shaped your theology and Mohammed's own
Show us prior times when Mohammed prayed for refuge from the torment of the grave before hearing these old women?
Can you show us any Rabbinic narrative that affirms the torment of the grave!?
JimRohn: 🔹 3. Mocking the Prophet’s Fear of the Grave Torment – But Jesus Cried and Sweated Blood?
You mock the Prophet ﷺ for fearing the torment of the grave.
Yet your Bible says:
Be consistent. If fear invalidates prophethood or truth, your theology collapses on itself.
Jesus was fully human too and humans do not enjoy pain: it is understandable.
Your Prophet is supposed to be guaranteed of paradise. He is the first to be resurrected! Yet, he is afraid of torments of the grave. If your prophet is not to experience Pain in the grave, what is he afraid of?
Even the small me is NOT afraid of death: how much more the greatest prophet of Allah!
JimRohn: 🔹 4. Makr (Divine Planning) – Your Hypocrisy is Blinding
You said: > "Here's the dictionary definition of makr—so it means deceit."
Stop playing the dictionary game when it suits you. Here’s the full truth:
🔸 Makr in Arabic means strategic planning, often in response to enemy schemes. It can be used positively or negatively based on the context.
In the Qur’an:
> “They planned, and Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.” (3:54)
That’s actual deception, not strategy. So again: double standard exposed.
In modern Arabic, the word "makr" (مكر) is always negative. It means deceit, cunning, trickery, or scheming — typically with malicious or manipulative intent. Otherwise, give me just 5 positive sentences in Arabic showing makr in any positive sense?
Ezekiel said God deceived him into giving a message to the Israelite when He already knew that God's word will not result in any change in them. Read the book again.
Here Allah gives himself the TITLE the very best Al-Makr. This is an Identity rather than an activity.
Eg. One can kill without being a Killer One can get drunk without being a Drunk Here is a serious Identity Problem: Allah himself is the Al-Makr
JimRohn: 🔹 5. “Can Someone Change the Words of Allah?” – You Misunderstood the Qur’an, Again
You asked: > “If the Torah and Injeel are Allah’s words, can they be changed?”
Answer:
Even your own Bible agrees:
> Jeremiah 8:8 – “The lying pen of the scribes has falsified it.”
So if you trust the Bible, start by believing it when it admits the text has been tampered.
I have shown you that it is only Muslims who wrote the Qur'an with their hands and said this is from Allah!
None can change the Words of Allah BUT then written words of Allah can be changed.
Jeremiah 8:8 was simply saying that just as you Muslims (re-interpreted the words of Allah in the Qur'an), the scribes have made false to words of God by their re-interpretations of the Torah.
Unfortunately, if you insist that the Torah at the time of Jeremiah was corrupted, then it is a conclusive proof that Allah cannot be God because he is IGNORANT of this that the Jews at the time of Mohammed had the uncorrupted Torah!
Did Allah make this difference or you are the one helping him to speak clearly as usual.
Islam is a contradiction of lies!
Don't you Muslims use this verse to prove that the Quran is word for word, letter for letter preserved even up to the diacritical marks? Is this another lie?
JimRohn: 🔹 6. You Butchered the Analogy You claimed:
> “Judaism confirms the New Testament but then rejects it… just like Islam.”
Wrong. That’s historical and theological nonsense.
Judaism does NOT confirm the New Testament. They reject Jesus as Messiah, period.
Islam, however, affirms:
Jesus was born miraculously
He was a prophet
He brought the Injeel
He will return
But rejects fabricated divinity, crucifixion myths, and Pauline distortions.
You got it: you said, > “Judaism confirms the New Testament but then rejects it… just like Islam.”
That’s historical and theological nonsense.
Judaism does NOT confirm the New Testament. They reject Jesus as Messiah, period.
You just proved that Islam is a historical and theological nonsense
Islam affirms the Scripture of the Jews and the Christians, then turns around to reject both their Scriptures and Religion.
Indeed it is a Historical and A theological nonsense!
I guess, we should debate on the preservation of the Qur'an and let's see if the Qur'an is preserved.
Kingsnairaland: Without Russia we all would have been bowing probably like our forefathers did to UK USA evil nato government
That why I always praise God each day I am alive to be born in a time where no one can oppress me
I have a pure stubborn spirit that is filled with the Holy Spirit I bow to no one but God
Thank you so. Without Russia, Nigeria's debt would have reached 1Trillion dollars. If not for Russia, I would have been eating less than one square meal a day. Without Russia, I wouldn't even be able to have any girlfriend.
JimRohn: 🔥 4. You’ve Resorted to Mockery Because You’ve Run Out of Reason
You call me a "denialist", accuse me of being “uneducated,” and liken Muslims to “Satanists.” This is pure emotional deflection. It is a clear admission that you cannot answer the contradiction posed in your own doctrine, so you resort to petulant sarcasm and pseudo-theological insults.
But fine — let’s return the favor, with substance.
I have shown you that your easily understood Taoheed is applicable to Iblis. So, how are you special!
Indeed, you are a denialist! Just like in what is called "Trauma Bonding" , you defend the one taking you to hell fire. It's the same characteristics of behaviour sir!
JimRohn: ⚔️ 5. You Attack Islam with Fallacies, Lies, and Fabricated Theology
Let’s demolish your points, one by one:
❌ “Allah is not omnipresent”
Correct — in Islamic theology, Allah is not inside creation. That’s not a weakness. That’s transcendence.
Unlike your god, who allegedly entered the womb of a woman, came out of her private parts, and was crucified by his own creation — our God is not bound by space, time, or flesh. He knows all things, hears all things, and is near without being physically “inside” creation.
That’s called divine perfection, not limitation.
Is air not above and below Allah? Then, he is a subset of the universe and thus not Omnipresent!
Your claims here are misinterpretations and distortions.
The sun “setting in a muddy spring” is the perceptual description in the story of Dhul Qarnayn — not a scientific claim.
The “tara’ib” issue is a misreading of Arabic grammar — and has been refuted by scholars for centuries.
Hail from the sky and stars as missiles? These are metaphors describing cosmic phenomena, not physics textbooks.
You think you’re making theological critiques, but you're just regurgitating orientalist misunderstandings that have been refuted in every serious tafsir.
Meanwhile, your own God didn’t know the fig season (Mark 11:13), claimed mustard seeds are the smallest seeds (which is false), and allegedly created light before the sun. Take the plank out of your own eye.
All you need to do is to combine seen the sun setting in the horizon and finding a people near it: it is a perception IMPOSSIBILITY sir. Did Dhul Qarnyn find the sun setting in a POOL or the Sea?
Allah's words must be re-interpreted as he cannot speak clearly.
JimRohn: ❌ “Allah is not omnipotent” This is ironic. According to Christianity: God died on a cross, cried on the cross, and begged to be saved. God cannot forgive without blood. God was powerless to send down a scripture without making Himself a human. That’s impotence — not power.
Meanwhile, Allah says: “When He wills a thing, He says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is.” (Qur'an 36:82)
No need to incarnate. No need to suffer. No need to die.
If Allah truely created the heavens and the earth, why does he mix up the sequence? Why was it impossible for him to give Mohammed his most important prophet signs? Why always silly excuses?
JimRohn: 🚮 6. Your Attacks on Prophet Muhammad ﷺ Are Blasphemous and Ignorant Let’s clarify:
Zayd’s divorce was initiated by him, and the marriage to Zaynab was by divine command to abolish pre-Islamic taboos — not justify sin.
Is this not shameful in your hearing? Tell me, Is it islamic for a Muslim man to enter into the house of a woman whose husband is not at home?
Who said this statement: Praise be to Allah who makes my heart flip for you.. It was said to the hearing of the wife of a married woman who was a wife to a Muslim!
You will defend shamelessness I know!!
JimRohn: Temporary marriage (mut'ah) was permissible for a time, then abrogated — that’s called gradual legislation, not “halal prostitution.”
As for “paradise with orgies” — that’s your vulgar mind talking. The pleasures of Jannah are beyond your comprehension. The Prophet ﷺ said: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined what Allah has prepared…”
1. Did Allah allow Muslim men to operate a brothel with their girls? Yes or No! 2. Did Allah abrogate Mutah anywhere in the Qur'an? Yes or No? 3. Did any prophet before Islam allow halal prostitutions?
Paradise with orgies: 1. Is it UNTRUE that your prophet promised you endless erections? 2. Is it untrue that your job in paradise would be deflowering virgins? 3. Is it untrue that there is a market in paradise where you can point to any 3D image of men and women and go into them? 4. Is it untrue that FEMALE inmates of Hell would be given to Muslim men in paradise and the qualifications of those girls is simply because they have good cleavages (I don't want to use vulgar terms)?
And you say you paradise is not a brothel!
JimRohn: You ridicule what you don’t understand. ✅ Islamic Tawḥīd vs. Christian Contradiction
Let’s compare:
Islamic Monotheism:
One God.
Absolute oneness.
No contradictions.
No death of God.
No divine ignorance.
No humiliation of the Creator by His own creation.
Christian Trinitarianism:
Three “persons” but one essence (which no one can define).
God dies.
God weeps.
God gets tempted.
God doesn’t know the Hour.
God is hungry and whipped by Roman soldiers.
Then you say this is “the truth.”
You’ve taken Greek metaphysics, baptized it in confusion, and called it revelation.
🧠 Final Challenge: Can You Defend Christology with Logic?
> How can Jesus be fully God and fully man without violating the law of non-contradiction?
You’ve dodged this question repeatedly.
No amount of rhetorical noise will help you until you answer it. So I challenge you again:
Is Jesus omniscient or not?
Is he mortal or not?
Is he subject to temptation or not?
Pick a side — because claiming “both at once” is not theology. It’s intellectual suicide.
Return to the truth of pure monotheism.
One indivisible God.
Eternal.
All-Knowing.
All-Powerful.
Above His creation.
Free of contradiction.
This is Tawḥīd. This is Islam. This is reason aligned with revelation.
Now, unless you have a logical, coherent, and respectful answer to the contradiction within Christology — spare us the mockery and emotional theatrics.
Because theology is not a circus, and truth is not served by noise.
First handle the gross difference between the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus, then come back again!
Islam cannot handle scrutiny, it breaks down the twin towers an 9/11 in USA
There is no escaping for you sir. For if Allah is false, Islam is false. Unfortunately for you, if we assume for the sake of argument that Allah is real, Christians, Jews and Sabeans (who worship stars) will enter paradise!
JimRohn: Your response is not only logically incoherent but laced with juvenile mockery and theological ignorance masquerading as cleverness. You confuse verbosity for reasoning, sarcasm for scholarship, and polemics for precision. Let’s strip away the noise and face your theological and philosophical failures point by point.
📌 1. You Still Don’t Understand the Argument — and Repetition Isn’t a Refutation
You have once again repeated your flawed analogy between the soul/body duality and the divine/human duality — despite it being thoroughly dismantled. You falsely assume that two complementary components (soul and body) in a created being can serve as an analogy for a logical contradiction in God’s essential attributes.
Let me spell this out for you one more time — slowly:
A soul can be immortal.
A body can be mortal.
These are not contradictions because they belong to different parts of the same human.
But what you claim about Jesus is that one single, unified person (not two beings) is:
Fully omniscient and ignorant at the same time
Fully immortal and mortal at the same time
Fully untemptable and tempted at the same time
This is not metaphysical complexity. It is a logical contradiction.
You claim the “Word became flesh.” Fine. Now answer: Did the divine Word lose divine attributes when it became flesh or not? If yes, then it was no longer fully God. If no, then it possessed contradictory attributes at once — which violates the law of non-contradiction.
You’re not answering the critique. You’re dodging it with false analogies and circular logic.
Khai! Your willful ignorance is disheartening You admit that A soul can be immortal AND A body can be mortal.
According to Christian theology 1. Is the Word Jesus (who created all things) 2. Is the Son of Mary (the human) still Jesus?
But you are still confused!? You need help
JimRohn: 🔄 2. Your "Name Game" Questions Are Linguistic Red Herrings
You ask:
> What is the name of the soul of Moses in paradise?
> What is the name of the body of Moses in the grave?
The answer is obvious and already given: Moses. It’s one person with two components, each with different properties. But again, no contradiction arises unless you claim his body is both dead and alive in the same respect, which no Muslim does.
The same applies to the Qur'an:
The eternal Qur’an is the uncreated speech of Allah (Kalām Allāh).
The physical mushaf is a temporal medium that contains that speech in a created form.
Different manifestations, not contradictions. You’re confusing ontology (what something is in essence) with modality (how something appears or is transmitted). That’s your failure — not ours.
And you think When the Word became human, it is a contradiction Like when Jibril (an Angel) became human, it is a contradiction!?
You need help sir!
JimRohn: 🚫 3. Your Quantum Analogy Still Doesn’t Work
Wave-particle duality does not teach that something is fully a wave and fully a particle at the same time in the same respect. It describes how subatomic entities display different properties depending on how they are observed.
That’s not a contradiction. That’s conditional behavior — which respects logic. Your Christology, however, violates the law of identity and non-contradiction.
You’re trying to justify metaphysical nonsense with scientific uncertainty. That’s intellectual laziness.
Are the characteristic properties of a wave and the characteristic property of particulate matter exactly the same and NOT contradictory?
I guess you should answer the question!
Of a truth, that yours is wilful self imposed ignorance I am further convinced that you are a Denialist at heart as you combine an obstinate, unreasonable, dogmatic, partiality to plain doctrines. The Truth is not important to people like you!
sonmvayina: Israel/Jacob is God's servant. When the kings of the earth realized that Israel has been innocent all along, that is what they would say. Who has believed what we (the kings of the earth) have heard(Israel is innocent) and to whom was the right hand revealed
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. 5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
It is the kings of the earth that is talking....they thought that God was punishing Israel through them.
If I understood you well Vs 6 Israel (Jacob), has gone astray God this laid on the Nation of Israel the Iniquity of Jacob
Is the people of God Isra-el? I am not understanding?
JimRohn: 🔹 3. Jibrīl (Gabriel) as the Holy Spirit – You Ignored the Qur’anic Evidence
You ignored direct Qur’anic evidence equating Rūḥ al-Qudus with Jibrīl:
Qur’an 2:97: “Say, whoever is an enemy to Gabriel—for he is the one who brings it (the Qur’an) down...”
Qur’an 16:102: “Say, the Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord…”
Same task, same revelation, same role = same identity.
Your childish mockery (“So Allah doesn’t understand Arabic?”) shows desperation, not argumentation. You quote Genesis 1:2 about “the Spirit of God,” but fail to prove it is a distinct divine person. Where does Genesis say, “The Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with God and deserves worship”? Answer: Nowhere.
Your theology is retroactively injected into the text, just like your forced Trinitarian readings into ambiguous verses.
4. Your Challenge: “Show One Prophet Who Called the Holy Spirit an Angel”
Here’s your logical trap: you assume that if no prophet called the Holy Spirit an angel explicitly, it cannot be true.
Where did Moses, Jesus, or David explicitly say: “The Holy Spirit is God”?
> Give a verse where any prophet says: “Worship the Holy Spirit.”
You won't find it. That’s why your standard fails you.
Islam is not bound to Jewish or Christian post-biblical definitions. Gabriel is called the Spirit in Christian apocryphal texts too. Moreover, if the Qur’an clearly names the Holy Spirit as Gabriel, your appeal to what Jewish rabbis or early Christians thought is irrelevant to Islam.
You are the one who makes a mockery of the words of Allah and not me. How, by re-interpreting every thing he says that you don't like?
Is it UNTRUE that Your Standard Islamic Narrative says that Abraham, Moses, David. Solomon and Jesus are Muslims?
If they are, show us where ANY of them remotely says that the Holy Spirit is an Angel?
Did the Jews and Christians erase those from their scriptures?
JimRohn: 🔹 5. You Mock “Harmless Religious Practices” You continue to beat a strawman.
No Muslim said the Prophet ﷺ copied theological beliefs from the People of the Book. Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 refers to harmless customs, like hairstyles—not divine doctrines. Your attempt to conflate imitation of neutral customs with doctrinal borrowing is logically laughable.
Also, mocking traditions like “Torment of the Grave” ignores the fact that this is found in authentic hadith, not fabricated legends. If you want to debate hadith authenticity, come with proper isnād analysis, not rhetorical jabs.
Let me show you one of those harmless traditions which was a lie believed by your prophet. If you disagree that the tradition of the Jews is true, show us one source of the Jews where they taught of the torment of the grave.
Sahih Muslim 586 a 'A'isha reported: There came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and said: The people of the grave are tormented in their graves. I contradicted them and I did not deem it proper to testify them. They went away and the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came to me and I said to him: Messenger of Allah I there came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and asserted that the people of the graves would be tormented therein. He (the Prophet) said: They told the truth; they would be tormented (so much) that the animals would listen to it. She ('A'isha) said: Never did I see him (the Holy Prophet) afterwards but seeking refuge from the torment of the grave in prayer.
1. Two old Jewish women told fables about the torment of the grave 2. Mohammed became so scared that he incorporated it into his Deen and 3. Believed it so much that he couldn't pray without seeking refuge from this torment
Here is your prophet who was supposed to be praying in his grave as the most beloved prophet of Allah, afraid of the torment of the grave!
Does this make sense to you?
Compare with Jesus: John 14:5-6: "Thomas said to him, Lord, we know not where you go; and how can we know the way?" "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me."
I invite you to the Messiah for your salvation and deliverance from the punishment of Hell Fire!
You dishonestly twist Qur’an 3:54 (makr) as “deceit.”
> Makr in Arabic = strategic planning in response to the enemy’s schemes.
God foils plots of plotters. If you call that “deception,” then your Bible should be condemned too:
Ezekiel 14:9: “If a prophet is deceived, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.”
2 Thessalonians 2:11: “God sends them a powerful delusion…”
Your double standard is exposed. You mock makr in Islam but ignore deceit attributed to God in your Bible.
🔹 7. “Qur’an Says No One Can Change Allah’s Words” – Another Misuse
When the Qur’an says:
> “None can change His words” (6:115, 10:64),
It refers to His decrees and promises, not the integrity of past scriptures preserved in human hands.
Even your Bible says:
> “The scribes have lied” (Jeremiah 8:, “How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
So do you reject Jeremiah too?
🔹 8. Your Final Fallacy: “If the Bible Contradicts the Qur’an, the Qur’an Must Be False”
That is absurd logic.
By that same logic:
Judaism proves Christianity false—since Jews reject your Trinitarian doctrines.
Hindus could claim your rejection of reincarnation proves your religion false.
Contradiction does not mean falsity—unless you first prove the authority of your source. Islam does not grant the Bible that authority in its current form.
You must first demonstrate:
That your current Bible is unaltered
That Jesus taught the Trinity
That the Holy Spirit is a divine person co-equal with God
You’ve proven none of these—just repeated slogans and mockery.
✅ Final Response:
Your replies are full of:
Fallacious arguments (appeal to consensus, strawmen, red herrings)
Mockery and sarcasm in place of serious theology
Scriptural misreadings and forced Christian dogma
Islam does not need reinterpretation—you need intellectual consistency. The Qur’an remains internally coherent, linguistically unmatched, and theologically unshaken by shallow polemics.
If you wish to continue, I suggest you elevate your discourse. Otherwise:
> “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6)
May the truth prevail.
1. I have attached the dictionary meaning of the word Makr please judge
2. According to Muslim, is the Qur'an, Taurat and Injeel Allah's words? If they are
Can someone change the words of Allah?
Don't forget that even the Torah was written by Allah for Moses.
Tell me, is this the words of Allah or not?
Qur'an 7:145 "And We wrote for him on the Tablets [al-alwāḥ] something of all things — instruction and explanation for all things — [saying], 'Take them with determination and order your people to take the best of it.'"
3. You then gave an absurd and Illogical analogy and said: Judaism proves Christianity false—since Jews reject your Trinitarian doctrines.
NO sir, it is more like Judaism confirms the New Testament but then Rejects both the New Testament and Christianity
Exactly like Islam confirms the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians but then Rejects the Bible and Judaism with Christianity
Sorry, Islam breaks down terribly under scrutiny,,,.
JimRohn: Your latest reply once again abandons calm, logical reasoning for sarcasm, misquotations, and intellectually dishonest polemics. Let me dismantle your claims step by step, using your own Bible, Islamic scripture, and consistent logic—not emotional outbursts.
🔹 2. The Fallacy About Confirming the Scriptures = Approving All Their Content
You commit a category error by assuming that the Qur’an “confirming” the scriptures means affirming all of their current content. This is false.
“Tasdiq” (تَصْدِيق) in Qur’anic Arabic means to affirm the truth that remains and expose deviations. Qur’an 5:48 says:
> “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming what came before it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it...”
If the Qur’an is a criterion, it judges, not blindly affirms.
Your assumption is like saying:
> “If a teacher confirms a student’s original essay had value, he must affirm every later edit and forgery made to it.”
This is simply illogical.
Thank God for prophet Internet , do you know him?
Let me ask him to explain the meaning of the word (تَصْدِيق) from Arabic
My prophet says the dictionary meaning of (تَصْدِيق) Is 1. To attest to 2. To confirm something 3. To validate something 4. To Ratify an information Let me attach the dictionary for your from prophet Google! LOL!
Then you went on to use another word which you assumed I wouldn't know from
Qur’an 5:48 “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming what came before it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it...”
1. Is it untrue that Linguistically, "Furqan" means "that which separates or distinguishes," and it can apply to anything that differentiates right from wrong, not just a specific book. 2. Can you say that the Furqan is only the Qur'an or affirm that every scripture is the Furqan! Qur'an 2:53 "And [recall] when We gave Moses the Scripture and the Furqān, that perhaps you would be guided." Qur'an 21:48 "And We had already given Moses and Aaron the Furqān, and a light and a reminder for the righteous."
3. According to the Quran itself, this Reminder also includes the previous Scriptures which God sent down for mankind. Quran 21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder (ahla al-thikri) [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know. cf. Quran 21:48, 105; Quran 40:53-54
Quran 15:9: Lo! We, even We, reveal THE Reminder (al-thikra), and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
JimRohn: Your latest reply once again abandons calm, logical reasoning for sarcasm, misquotations, and intellectually dishonest polemics. Let me dismantle your claims step by step, using your own Bible, Islamic scripture, and consistent logic—not emotional outbursts.
🔹 1. Misuse of Verses About the Bible Being “With Them”
You quote verses such as Qur’an 7:157 and 2:41–101 to claim that Islam affirms the current Torah and Gospel as they exist today.
This is a shallow misreading.
When the Qur’an refers to what is “with them,” it is referring to:
The original revelations that existed among them
Remnants of truth still preserved amidst corruption
> Qur’an 2:79 explicitly says: “So woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah.’”
It is not a contradiction to say the Qur’an confirms the original Torah and Gospel and simultaneously rejects the current corrupt versions. Your Bible includes anonymous authors, editorial insertions, contradictory accounts, and centuries of redaction—all documented by Christian scholarship itself (see Bart Ehrman, “Misquoting Jesus”).
So your question, “When were the scriptures distorted?” is like asking when milk became sour—it spoils over time.
Historical clues:
The Council of Nicaea (325 CE): major doctrinal decisions on the divinity of Jesus.
The Synod of Laodicea (4th century): canon formation, many books excluded.
Gospel authors are anonymous; earliest complete manuscripts are centuries after Jesus.
Ask your own scholars about textual corruption (e.g., interpolated endings in Mark, the Johannine Comma, etc.). Your demand for a “date stamp” on distortion is a red herring.
May the truth prevail.
When I said Islam cannot survive without lies, it is an understatement. Muslims must re-interprete Allah's clear words as if he is incapable of making clear conscise statements.
Let me address your erroneous defences. 1. You said: When the Qur’an refers to what is “with them,” it is referring to: The original revelations that existed among them AND Remnants of truth still preserved amidst corruption
You see, like helping a toddler just learning to speak, you have to help the meaning of the words of Allah which to me is a complete disrespect for Allah by you. The sarcasm isn't at Allah but at you until you learn to respect him and take him by his words.
Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
1. What are the names of the two Books of Allah in this verse? 2. Who are these two books of Allah with? (Who are the them in this verse?) 3. Where is the name of this unlearned Messenger whose name is found in the corrupted Torah and Injeel?
Let's look at the second and third verses Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
1. Let's assume the Torah and Injeel are corrupted: your argument is that the Qur'an confirms the corrupted revelations that was with the Jews and Christians? 2. Do you affirm that If the Qur'an confirms a corrupted revelation that is in the possession of Jews and Christians, then the Qur'an MUST logically also be also corrupted?
Let's look at the fourth verse of the Qur'an: Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,
1. Is it untrue that Even though Mohammed cannot read nor write (according to the standard Islamic Narrative), he confirms our scriptures? 2. When Allah says: "a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not" , what does it mean ?
So, you have to fabricate lies to re-interpret what was clearly said by Allah. When was the Scriptures of the Jews and that of the Christians distorted? I need dates or period!
You then went to expose the fact that Allah was ignorant of the fact that some people in 325 AD rewrote the Torah and Injeel which was in use 300 years after, during the time of Mohammed. Unfortunately, Allah either didn't know of the Council of Nicea / Laodicea and their corruption so, This corrupted scripture of the Jews and Christians in 630 AD was confirmed by both Allah and his prophet Mohammed! Does this even make sense to you!?
You quoted Qur’an 2:79 “So woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah.’” Tell me, 1. Was the Qur'an written with hands of men or by the finger of God? I will answer you, up to 1924, the Qur'an was written by Hands? 2. Who are the people who claims that their handwritten scripture is from Allah? Is it the Jews, or the Christians or the Muslims?
What does it even mean by the word "CONFIRM" in the phrase "Confirming a Book"!?
Do you see how your answers make you look hilarious!?
Like I said, I wasn't mocking Islam, I was stating exactly what Allah and your prophet said: But to Muslims, many sound stupid and irrational and this is why Muslims have to reinterpret the Quran or the Hadiths to make sense!
Dvdpity: Zelenesky is very very heartless...this is someone some idiots here are supporting.
Zelensky!, Zelensky!! Zelensky!!!
We have asked you to 1. Surrender like a coward, you refused ! 2. Give up your territories without a fight , your refused ! 3. Run away to USA or Germany or Even France , you refused! 4. Let us install a puppet government in Ukraine, you refused!
Now, your lack of cooperation has caused 1 Million Russian casualties and 600,000 Ukrainian casualties: indeed Zelensky, you are heartless!
We Russia the invaders are doing you Ukrainians a favour by delivering your from the hands of Western Imperialist. Become like Belarus and we will be at peace!
JimRohn: Thank you again for your response. However, your latest message reflects a shift from substantive dialogue to polemical rhetoric and ridicule. For a fruitful exchange, I invite you to return to clear, logically sound reasoning and respectful engagement. I will now address your objections systematically.
1. “Why Adopt Their Scriptures but Reject Them?” – A Misframing
Islam does not “adopt” the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. It affirms that previous revelations were originally divine (e.g., the Torah and the Injīl) but have been corrupted or altered over time (Qur'an 2:79, 5:13). The Qur’an explicitly claims to confirm what remains true and correct what has been distorted (Qur’an 5:48).
> Claiming that Islam must fully agree with today’s Jewish or Christian texts to be legitimate is like arguing Christianity is false because it doesn't conform to Judaism. This is a category error.
You also cited the number of prophets (124,000) and asked why most known by name are also mentioned in Judeo-Christian scriptures. The answer is simple:
> The Qur’an states that some prophets are named, and many are not (Qur’an 40:78). Islam’s naming of past prophets is not “borrowing” but affirmation of true prophethood where it occurred—while rejecting theological distortions that evolved afterward.
Tell me, did Allah say these in the Quran? Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,
So, you have to fabricate lies to re-interpret what was clearly said by Allah. When was the Scriptures of the Jews and that of the Christians distorted? I need dates or period!
JimRohn: 2. Misunderstanding the Nature of Revelation Your citation of Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 about the Prophet ﷺ following certain customs of the People of the Book is unrelated to theological doctrine. It concerns non-religious social customs, such as hair styles, which Islam neither prohibits nor mandates unless divine command exists. Copying a harmless cultural practice is not equivalent to theological borrowing.
This analogy fails logically and theologically.
So, Mohammed was copying HARMLESS RELIGIOUS PRACTICES!? Okay! Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 was correct after all but needs re-interpretation by modern Muslims! Tell me where your propjet first heard of the Torment of the Grave!
JimRohn: 3. “Not One Monotheistic Religion Sees the Holy Spirit as an Angel” – Argument from Consensus Fallacy You argue: > “No monotheistic religion sees the Holy Spirit as an angel. Therefore, Islam is wrong.” This is a fallacious appeal to consensus (argumentum ad populum). Truth is not determined by popularity or the number of religions agreeing on a point. Otherwise:
The Trinity would be false, since Judaism unanimously rejects it.
Christianity’s divinization of Jesus would be invalid, since both Jews and Muslims reject it.
Furthermore, Islam is not Judaism 2.0 nor Christianity 1.5. It is a separate, final revelation. You are insisting Islam conform to a Judeo-Christian consensus while simultaneously defending doctrines Judaism rejects—which is a contradiction in your own method.
Islam is a continuation of the Religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Solomon and Jesus BUT not even one of them says that the Holy Spirit is any Angel. As they Treated the Holy Spirit either as the Person of God Himself or as the Power of God!
It means you tell lies! Otherwise, I challenge you to give me one example any of your prophets hinted that the Holy Spirit was an Angel!
JimRohn: 4. Islamic Identification of the Holy Spirit as Jibrīl (Gabriel) Is Scripturally and Linguistically Sound You never addressed the actual textual correlation I provided: Qur’an 2:97 — Jibrīl brought down the Qur’an Qur’an 16:102 — Rūḥ al-Qudus brought it down
These are not ambiguous metaphorical references. They are direct and consistent. In Arabic grammar and Qur’anic context, Jibrīl is identified as Rūḥ al-Qudus.
Rejecting this without any refutation of the semantic, textual, and exegetical basis is not a rebuttal—it is dismissal.
Unfortunately, these are LIES 1. Jibril is as tall as a mountain 2. Jibril is identical to Mohammed's boyfriend Dihyah al-Kalbi 3. Jibril is the only Angel that squeezes prophets and never says "Peace be unto you" to them!
The day the Spirit (singular) and the Angels shall stand in rows: but Jibril is an Angel!
JimRohn: 5. “Is the Spirit Not Jesus?” – A Misconstrual You ask: “Was Jesus not called a spirit from Allah?”
Yes, the Qur’an calls Jesus “Rūḥun minhu” (a Spirit from Him) (Qur’an 4:171). This does not mean Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The phrase means Jesus was created by God's command, as was Adam, and given a spirit from Him, just as all humans are (Qur’an 15:29, 32:9).
The phrase “spirit from God” does not imply divinity or identity with the Holy Spirit. It refers to origin and divine creation—not essence.
Is it illegal to Quote Allah? What is the essence of the Quran when you have to inject yourself between Allah and his speech?
Admit that Allah either doesn't understand Arabic or he is the worst communicator alive! Jesus is a "Spirit from Allah" and your prophet even went higher to call him "Ruhullah" (spirit of Allah) : BUT According to you Allah and Mohammed actually do not mean what they said: they means something else! SMH!!
JimRohn: 6. “How Many Spirits Are There?” – Equivocation Fallacy You conflate different uses of the word “spirit” (Arabic: rūḥ) without distinction: Human spirit: The soul breathed into man (Qur’an 32:9) Revelatory agent: Jibrīl, also called Rūḥ al-Qudus
Jesus: Described as a “spirit from God” in a metaphysical, not ontological, sense.
> Just as “word” in the Bible has various meanings (e.g., God’s speech, Jesus as the Logos, or ordinary speech), “spirit” in Arabic and scripture also has contextual meanings. Failing to distinguish these is a category mistake.
So, you have to tell lies to resolve your problem RUH=NAFS! Islamic dictionary 101 Jibril is Nafs Al- Qudus According to you, the quran mean "The day the Nafs and the Angels will stand in rows..."!
Your conclusion is that Allah's arabic doesn't know the difference between Soul and Spirit, so you have to help him re-explain his words.
Thank you!
JimRohn: 7. Qur’an 17:85 – What Does “You Know Not About the Spirit” Mean? You mockingly state: “If Mohammed and Allah do not know what the Spirit is, would it be you that know?” That’s a gross misreading. The verse does not say Muhammad ﷺ does not know the Spirit’s identity, only that its full metaphysical nature is beyond human comprehension. Likewise, you don’t claim to know the full nature of God’s essence—but that doesn’t mean you know nothing about Him. This is an epistemological distinction between: Identification (what something is called) Essence (what something is in full metaphysical nature)
Okay then If Allah or Mohammed knew what the spirit is, why didn't they just say it when the Jews began pestering with their questions? Let me help you with two answers that would have help Allah and his prophet 1. The Ruh is Jibril the Angel of Allah 2. The Ruh is Prophet Isa 3. The Ruh is Nafs the Soul And we would have been satisfied!
BUT, what Allah doesn't know, he gives excuses about it.
JimRohn: 8. “Was Jibrīl Involved in Creation?” – A Strawman You ask sarcastically: “So Jibril was part of creating the universe?” Nowhere does Islam claim this. Jibrīl is a servant of God who delivers revelation—not a co-creator or divine power.
This is like saying the postman wrote the letter he delivered. It's a false attribution of divine agency to an angelic intermediary.
Moses says so in the Taurat in case you don't know!
Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
JimRohn: 9. “Allah Is the Best of Deceivers” – Out-of-Context Polemic This is a frequently debunked polemical attack. The Arabic word used is makr, which refers to strategic planning or counter-planning, especially against the plots of enemies.
God “deceives” only deceivers—those who scheme against the truth (Qur’an 3:54). The same applies in the Bible:
> “With the pure You show Yourself pure, and with the crooked You make Yourself seem tortuous.” (Psalm 18:26)
Your objection reflects a misunderstanding of classical Arabic idiom.
Did not Allah say that he is the Best Deceiver!? Sorry: I forgot that in Arabic, the word Deceive mean to Guide aright!
JimRohn: 10. Final Logical Fallacy: “If Our Scriptures Contradict the Qur’an, Then the Qur’an Is False” This is your closing assertion: > “If Islam is TRUE about our Scripture, then Islam is FALSE, for our Scriptures contradict Islam.”
This is a false dilemma. Islam does not affirm the current text of the Bible as fully preserved. It accuses your scriptures of: Corruption (taḥrīf) in content Omission and addition Misinterpretation of symbols and prophecy So, if your scripture today contradicts the Qur’an, it is not Islam that is internally inconsistent—it is your assumption that your scripture has remained unaltered.
Allah never said these in his Quran Qur'an 2:41, Qur'an 2:89 , Qur'an 2:101 Secondly, Allah claims that no one can change his words Quran 6:115, Quran 10:64, Quran 15:9:
Thirdly, According to the Quran itself, this Reminder also includes the previous Scriptures which God sent down for mankind. Case in point: Quran 21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder (ahla al-thikri) [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know. cf. Quran 21:48, 105; Quran 40:53-54
Quran 15:9: Lo! We, even We, reveal THE Reminder (al-thikra), and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
Did Allah fail to keep his books?
So, the Muslims are in a dilemma. If the Quran confirms the Bible, then Islam is FALSE for the Bible contradicts it.
Your response was not a logical rebuttal but a series of:
Fallacies (appeals to consensus, false dilemmas, category mistakes)
Misreadings of Islamic scripture
Mockery and emotionally charged language, not rational refutation Once again, I invite you to focus on sincere, rational engagement, not rhetorical jabs. If you reject the Qur’anic view, do so based on a coherent argument, not selective outrage. > “Say, O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate in your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the inclinations of people who went astray before.” (Qur’an 5:77) If you're willing to continue respectfully and rationally, I am open. If not, I leave you with:
> "To you your religion, and to me mine." (Qur’an 109:6) May God guide us all to the truth.
Sorry, I wasn't mocking Islam, I was stating exactly what Allah and your prophet said: To Muslims, many sound stupid and irrational and this is why Muslims have to reinterpret the Quran or the Hadiths to make sense!
sonmvayina: The narration started from chapter 52.. Read it in context. It is the kings of the earth that are talking. Israel was suffering as a result of their iniquities and oppression. Read 10-the end. The servant will live if he makes restitution, God will prolong his days .... It is not about the J-man. You can't take a text out of its context. That is not how to read a story. You won't learn anything like that. Put everything in context, then read it. Start from chapter 52. That is where the narrative started from.
JimRohn: Thank you for your response. I continue to value interfaith dialogue conducted with sincerity and reason. However, your latest reply, while passionate, unfortunately does not meet the standard of logical clarity required for theological discourse. It primarily reasserts already addressed claims without logically resolving the contradiction I originally posed to your Christology. Allow me to address your points in order, and then return to the central issue. 📌 1. Category Confusion: Still Not Resolved
You accuse me of “not understanding metaphysics and ontology,” yet you proceed to make the exact same category error I previously highlighted — and have yet to answer: > You equate the metaphysical composition of humans (soul and body) with the contradictory divine-human nature you attribute to Jesus.
In Islam, the soul and body are distinct but not contradictory aspects of human existence. When the body dies, the soul continues to live in the barzakh. This is not a contradiction, because different properties are attributed to different components (body is mortal; soul is immortal). This is metaphysical duality — not an ontological paradox.
1. You seem not to have the foggiest understanding of what you even mean by the words metaphysics and ontology 2. Your lack of comprehension is seriously evident by your statement You said: In Islam, the soul and body are distinct but not contradictory aspects of human existence. According to your understanding, in christianity, is the soul and body not distinct but contradictory aspects of human existence.
You made a confused statement like: > You equate the metaphysical composition of humans (soul and body) with the contradictory divine-human nature you attribute to Jesus No sir, I gave you statements like' Duality of Soul and Body being ONE and the same even though having two different natures THEN the Duality of WORD and Jesus being ONE and the same even though having two different natures
But your lack of sincerity made you see exactly whatever you wanted to see!
JimRohn: 🔁 2. Your Argument Is Circular and Repetitive You have restated the same rhetorical questions: "Was Moses’ soul Moses or not?" "Was his body Moses or not?"
"Is the physical Qur'an the Qur’an or not?" "Can something have two aspects but still be one?"
All of these have already been explicitly answered in my previous message — and you have not addressed those answers with counter-reasoning. You’ve only repeated your questions as if repetition substitutes for argument. It does not.
Let me summarize again for clarity:
Moses is one person. After death, his body is in the grave, and his soul continues to exist in a conscious state. This is the standard metaphysical understanding of life after death — affirmed not just by Islam but by Christianity itself. You are conflating essence with manifestation — a basic philosophical error.
You did NOT answer my question, you only glossed around it and then convincing yourself that you have answered it.
Let me rephrase if you don't understand: 1a. What is the Name of the IDENTITY of the Person (Body of Moses) in the Grave? 1b. What is the Name of the IDENTITY of the Person (Soul of Moses) in Paradise?
2a. What is the Name of the IDENTITY of the (non physical Quran) Kalām Allāh from the Umm al-Kitab in paradise? 2a. What is the Name of the IDENTITY of the (physical Quran) on Earth of the Kalām Allāh from the Umm al-Kitab in paradise?
Please don't beat around the bush
JimRohn: ❗ 3. You Still Have Not Answered the Central Contradiction Let me return, again, to the core challenge I raised — which you continue to avoid: > How can Jesus be both fully God and fully man when the attributes of divinity and humanity directly contradict each other? God is omniscient (all-knowing). Man is limited in knowledge. God is eternal and immortal. Man is subject to death. God cannot be tempted (James 1:13). Jesus was tempted (Matthew 4:1). These are not complementary attributes. They are logically contradictory. Claiming that the "Word took on limitations" does not solve the contradiction — it reasserts it.
If the “Word” became limited, then either: He ceased to be fully God, which contradicts your claim of “fully God,” or He remained fully God while also not having God’s attributes, which is a contradiction in terms.
Your ignorance (sorry for the language) is like that of an uneducated illiterate screaming on top of his lungs repeatedly asking the question "show me the HIV virus on my plate!".
Have you been able to explain how Moses was fully dead (on earth) BUT also fully alive in paradise? Have you been able to explain how the Quran (on earth) is perishable and with a date of BUT also uncreated/eternal?
These above are your supposed LOGICAL contradictions!
if you don't even understand your deen, how can you understand someone else's doctrine! SMH!!
JimRohn: 🧪 4. Your "Test of Sincerity" Backfires You ask: > "Did Moses' body die? Did his soul die? Is Moses alive or dead?" Answer (from Islamic theology): His body died, and remains in the grave. His soul lives in the barzakh. So, he is dead in the bodily sense but consciously alive in the soul. This is not contradictory because different attributes apply to different components. You then ask:
> "When the Word became human, did the Father and Spirit also become human?" If your answer is no, then your theology is fractured: the Word (allegedly God) took on ignorance, hunger, sleep, and death — but the rest of the Godhead did not. That would make God divisible, not one in essence. And if your answer is yes, then the entire Trinity lost divine attributes — which invalidates divinity.
Either way, the contradiction remains unresolved.
So, according to Islamic theology When Moses died, His Body Died AND His soul Died!? This willful ignorance was why you couldn't respond to a direct question with a simple YES or NO answer.
I asked: > "When the Word became human, did the Father and Spirit also become human?" The Question is exactly like When Moses body died, did Moses Soul also die?
JimRohn: 📚 5. Your Physics Analogy Fails You appeal to “wave-particle duality” as if scientific paradoxes justify theological contradictions. But the wave-particle duality is a model of quantum behavior, not a logical contradiction. It does not claim that something is entirely a wave and entirely a particle in the same respect and sense. It means it displays different properties under different conditions. No law of logic is violated.
By contrast, claiming that a being is fully omniscient and fully ignorant at once violates the law of non-contradiction — and no scientific analogy can rescue that.
See how you wave aside the implication of the wave-particle duality If I get you correctly the characteristic properties of a wave and the characteristic property of particulate matter are exactly the same and NOT contradictory.
I see, that yours is wilful ignorance I am convinced that you are a Denialist at heart as you combine and obstinate, unreasonable, dogmatic, partiality to plain doctrines. The Truth is not important to people like you.
JimRohn: ✅ Conclusion: Stop Repetition — Address the Real Issue You are welcome to continue this dialogue, but if it is to be fruitful, it must stop circling around rhetorical distractions. I respectfully ask that you address the core question without repetition or deflection:
> How can Jesus be fully God and fully man without violating the law of non-contradiction, when divinity entails omniscience, immortality, and impassibility — and humanity entails their opposites?
If you cannot resolve this contradiction, then simply restating Islamic beliefs about the soul, the Qur'an, or Moses does not help your case — nor does labeling questions as ignorance when they are in fact logical critiques of your doctrine.
As Muslims, we affirm: One indivisible God — eternal, omniscient, and perfect. No incarnation, no death of God, no logical paradox. Clear metaphysical categories, consistent with reason and revelation.
The Islamic doctrine of Tawḥīd offers clarity, coherence, and the unity of attributes — without contradiction. I again invite you to reflect on that.
As Christians, we see that Allah by the Reason of the Taoheed cannot be God the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth because he lacks the Characteristics of YHWH Allah is NOT Omnipresent: Allah is a subset of the Universe as Air is above and below him. A subset of the universe can not be omnipresent. Muslims agree that Allah is on the top of the seven heavens which is above the seven earths. Allah has to descend from his throne to even get close to our lowest heaven thus leaving his throne behind empty
Allah is NOT Omniscient: Allah says Dhul Qarnayn saw the setting place of the sun and he even met a people there. Women have reproductive fluids coming from their Taraib (ترائب). As far as Allah is concerned, hail stones are cut from mountains of ice in the sky. Even the stars are missiles to chase the Jinn to prevent them from eavesdropping on Allah (muslims have not explained how they would pass through the seven gates to reach where they can listen to Allah). Allah's historical records in the Quran are not above the level of the knowledge of an uneducated Arab man of the 6th century. Allah doesn't even know if the destiny of a boy is to die as a young boy or to become a mushrik at adulthood. Allah does not even sure of the pronunciation of Abraham in the Quran.
Allah is NOT Omnipotent: Allah doesn't even have the power to be somewhere and everywhere at the same time. Allah cannot enter what he calls his creation. Allah couldn't even make Mohammed perform a single miracle. Allah couldn't say the sequence by which he created the universe without getting it wrong.
Allah is NOT YHWH: Allah claims that he is YHWH the God of the Christians and Muslims. Unfortunately, from his 99 names, none of the names is YHWH. It was a blessing that the Jews do not call God their Father by Name: if not, Mohammed would have put it inside the Quran. YHWH disciplines His prophets when they commit sins: Allah justifies the Sins of his Messenger: Moses was punished for Adultery and Murder, Solomon was punished for Idolatry, Samson was Punished, Eli was punished, King Saul was punished. How about Allah? He arranged how Mohammed married the Wife (Zainab) of his Adopted son (Zaid): Allah thereafter cancelled adoption just to legalise this sin so that every muslim man can marry the wife of their adopted son. Allah gave the ordinance of Mutah and halal prostitution to Muslims which Mohmmed later (out of shame) abrogated.
The paradise of Allah is different from the Paradise of YHWH: In the paradise of YHWH, Jesus said people do NOT marry just like Angels don't get married. Allah and his prophet promises marriages, brotels, endless orgies where you will drink as much as you want without getting intoxicated. Allah women from Hell whose qualification is that they have nice front and inside (I pity women who are not well endowed) who enter hell fire as they have no escape.
God back to YHWH, the God of the Real Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God back to the God who doesn't give excuses but backs up his prophets with His power and presence
Using your Claim: Satanist worship one God and his name is satan. He is just one person and simple to understand. For satanists: One indivisible God — whose name is Satan (Iblis). No incarnation, no death of Satan, no logical paradox. Clear metaphysical categories, consistent with reason and revelation.
See how Alike you Muslims are with worshippers of Iblis
JimRohn: Thank you again for your response. However, your reply continues to repeat questions that have already been answered clearly and scripturally. For the sake of clarity, I will respond once more—logically, directly, and with respect. But I also urge you to engage with the actual points raised, rather than recycling objections that have already been addressed.
1. Jewish Views Do Not Define Islam You continue to assert that Islamic theology must be validated by Jewish or Christian prophetic views. This is categorically false. Islam has its own revealed framework. Just as you do not subject your Trinitarian beliefs to Jewish theology for approval, I am under no obligation to seek Jewish agreement on Qur’anic terms. Moreover, your argument is inconsistent:
You argue that the Holy Spirit cannot be an angel because Jewish prophets never described Him as such.
Yet Jews also never taught that the Holy Spirit is a separate divine person, let alone part of a Trinity. So by your own logic, Christianity would be “fraudulent” too.
You are using Jewish theology selectively—when it suits you.
So, why do you adopt their scriptures but reject it at the same time. Isn't it because Islam is contrary to the reports of the prophets you claim you believe?
Islam believes in 144,000 prophets but all the ones you know by name are the ones mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians.
There are just TWO views of the Holy Spirit by Jews, Christians and Jehovah's witnesses 1. That the Holy Spirit is the Divine Power of God manifested in His Presence 2. That the Holy Spirit is God Himself
In rabbinic tradition, the Holy Spirit, also known as "Ruach ha-Kodesh," is understood as a divine attribute or power, not a separate person or entity, like in Christian theology. It's viewed as a manifestation of God's presence, enabling individuals to prophesy or experience spiritual insight. In some rabbinic interpretations, the Holy Spirit is used as a metonym for God, signifying His presence and power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Judaism
Not ONE of the Monotheistic Religion see the Holy Spirit as an Angel. It is a Blasphemous ERROR in Islam that an Angel is the Holy Spirit
If you still feel that this is an overgeneralization, then I challenge you to present just one disagreement amoungs t the Jews or Christians on this.
JimRohn: 2. The Qur’an Identifies the Holy Spirit as Jibrīl You said: "Do you have any support that Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit other than Islam?" This question is irrelevant. Islam is an independent revelation, not a commentary on the Bible. It stands on its own scripture—the Qur’an—and authentic prophetic tradition.
But for the record:
Qur’an 2:97 identifies Jibrīl as the one who brought down the Qur’an.
Qur’an 16:102 says the Holy Spirit brought it down.
These are not metaphorical verses—they speak of the same act of revelation. Basic deduction confirms that Rūḥ al-Qudus = Jibrīl.
Early Islamic scholars—masters of Arabic and Qur’anic exegesis—understood this unanimously.
So yes, the Qur’an does support this identity directly, and no, we don’t need Jewish or Christian approval to affirm it.
Oh, I see, Islam is clearly independent
Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet (ﷺ) let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.
Speaking about removing the ladder you used after climbing the stairs.
JimRohn: 3. Misuse of Qur’an 78:38 You claimed that since “the Spirit and the angels” are mentioned separately in Qur’an 78:38, this proves the Spirit is not Jibrīl. But that is a flawed and superficial reading of the text.
Jibrīl can be referred to by multiple titles: Rūḥ, Rūḥ al-Qudus, Rūḥ al-Amīn, and Malak (angel).
The distinction in Qur’an 78:38 is not ontological (as in different species), but functional—just as we might say “the general and the soldiers stood in rank,” without denying that the general is a soldier in category. This verse simply highlights Jibrīl’s special role on that Day—it does not contradict his angelic nature.
There is no justification for bad grammar! Why is it that you are quick to come to the defence of Allah whenever he speaks? Doesn't Allah speak perfect grammar?
How do we even know if the spirit in question is NOT Jesus: was Jesus not explicitly said to be a Spirit from Allah? How many Spirits do you know in Islam?
JimRohn: 4. Qur’an 17:85 Does Not Contradict Jibrīl’s Identity
You cite Qur’an 17:85: > “They ask you concerning the Spirit (al-Rūḥ). Say: The Spirit is of the affair of my Lord...” This verse does not mean Muslims are clueless about the Spirit’s identity. Rather, it emphasizes that its full nature is beyond human comprehension—just as many metaphysical realities are. It’s also worth noting: The verse came in response to Jewish polemic questions, meant to test the Prophet ﷺ.
It affirms that knowledge of al-Rūḥ is a divine affair, not that it is undefined or unknowable.
The Qur’an elsewhere does identify the Rūḥ in the role of revelation—which Jibrīl fulfills.
So this verse does not disprove that Rūḥ = Jibrīl—it simply emphasizes divine discretion over metaphysical matters.
If Mohammed and Allah do not know what the spirit is, would it be you that know what it is?
JimRohn: 5. No Prophet Called the Holy Spirit an Angel? You asked: > “Can you find any prophet apart from Muhammad who called the Holy Spirit an angel?” That’s a misplaced challenge. No prophet before Jesus called the Holy Spirit a divine person either. The Old Testament portrays the Spirit as God’s active force—not as a distinct being or person. No verse says “the Holy Spirit is God” or “a divine person.” Likewise, nowhere do earlier prophets mention “God the Son.” By your own reasoning, then: > If no prophet before Jesus called the Holy Spirit a divine person, the Trinitarian doctrine must be rejected. Islam actually preserves the biblical pattern—understanding the Holy Spirit as a means of divine action, not divinity itself.
Let us assume that all the prophets meant that the Holy SPirit was not God Himself BUT He is the Manifest Presence of God's Power or the divine attribute or metonym for God, rather than a distinct entity.
Is this an Angel?
JimRohn: 6. Misusing “Power of God's Presence” You keep repeating: > “If the Holy Spirit is the power of God’s presence, how can it be an angel?” Let me clarify: In Islamic understanding: Angels carry out God’s commands. They are vehicles of divine action, but not divine in themselves. Saying Jibrīl is the “Holy Spirit” means he is the agent through whom God’s Word is revealed—not that he is the power of God’s being.
Just as Moses split the sea by God’s permission, yet was not divine, Jibrīl delivers God’s Word by His command—not by divine essence.
So, Jibril was part of creating the Universe? You don't understand that to cover your doctrinal failures, you have to invent many things! LOL!
JimRohn: 7. Let Us Not Circle the Same Ground With respect, you are now: Repeating already answered questions. Jumping between Jewish, Christian, and Islamic frameworks inconsistently. Demanding categorical verses while refusing to apply the same standard to your own beliefs. Declaring “if Jesus is right, Islam is false” as if that settles anything—when Islam does not affirm your version of Jesus to begin with. If you want a productive conversation, let’s move forward—not in circles. ✅ Final Summary: Yes: Islam teaches the Holy Spirit is Jibrīl—the angel of revelation. No: Islam does not derive its theology from Jewish or Christian traditions. Yes: The Qur’an identifies Jibrīl and the Holy Spirit as the same in multiple verses. No: Your misuse of isolated Qur’anic verses doesn’t undo this. Yes: Islam preserves pure monotheism and consistent theology about God, revelation, and the unseen.
I now respectfully ask: Do you intend to respond to these points directly—or will you continue repeating what’s already been answered? If no sincere engagement follows, then with all respect:
> “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6)
May God guide us all to the truth.
You give the dumbest response to my questions (Im sorry, its not supposed to be an insult but I lack better words) and you think they are good answers to the questions.
Like I said: If Allah speaks and Mohammed Speaks, do you think both are bad communicators that require you to re-interpret what has been said clearly?
Like I said: Allah guarantees you hell fire (at least temporarily) but you think he means otherwise. Allah says that he is the best of the deceivers, but you interpreted it to mean that Allah guides you. If your aim is to find the truth, the same Jewish prophets you despise their words, you have to look at it WHY! Allah says that "He revealed our Scriptures AND our scriptures are with us" unfortunately, the Quran contradicts our scriptures. thus you have a dilemma
If Islam is TRUE about our Scripture, then Islam is FALSE for our Scriptures contradict Islam. On this falsehood you hold your doctrine.
If Jesus came indeed to be our Ransom from Hell Fire, you are in serious trouble. If there exist just one lie or falsehood or error in the Quran, it cannot be from God!
caye: WHY WON'T YOU EVIL EUROPEAN PROPAGndists LEAVE AFRICAN SOULS ALONE? LIKE WTF?! WE SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN MALI, RUNNING THINGS WITH ARAB JIHADISTS , FOR THE SAKE OF FRANCE! USELESS EUROPEANS!!!
What concerns Europeans Africa? Only the French had been Imperial colonial rogue to the Francophone countries and their power had been cut short in many African countries except Cameroon and Togo.
This is between Russia and Ukraine with Russia being the exactly like France and even worse!
Mr Stilloracle Russia launches LARGEST EVER night attack: 499 drones & missiles target Ukraine. 🔥 Ukraine's stunning defense intercepts 479, then strikes back, destroying 2 Russian aircraft and hitting factories deep inside Russia. ⚡ Russia's losses mount (3500+ vehicles in May); Ukraine leverages drones and new tech. Putin's war faces fierce resistance.
sonmvayina: It is the kings of the earth that are talking about Israel. Israel is the suffering servant. I have said this a thousand times. It is not Isaiah that is talking. This is what the kings of the earth will say when they realize that Israel was innocent of all the crimes levelled against them. Nobody dies in Isaiah 53. It continues "He shall see his offspring and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hands."...that does not sound like j.man..
Stop taking text out of context. If you continue like this, you won't learn anything. Thank you.
Isa 53:3-12: "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way ; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all . He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul to death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Christianity Etc › Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 7:28pm On Jun 11, 2025
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