₦airaland Forum

Sorry Mr JimRohn,
Try and be more gentle in speech. The Nairaland bots probably flagged your post

You asked a question '
The Question was answered very well sparing no details

advocatejare:
Valid question

Na so dem slam me 10 years ban from commenting on Islam section, till date they didn’t tell me the offence that warranted 10 years ban

Seun is a former Christian who has decided hto allow his Muslims moderators to mistreat Christians.

They should all continue

He is afraid of Muslims is an understatement!
I think it is fair to tell anyone his offence if and when their post received a ban!

honesttalk21:
You are no longer certain of your understanding of the Qiraat, though you left the ahruf? Was really banking on you teaching me LOL

I wasn't teaching you the difference between the Ahruf and the Qira'at,

So, please answer my Questions (Five of them)


Don't forget what you said earlier:

....
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

What you have said here is that the Qur'an is NOT identical by words but is Identical in Message, Structure, meaning and recited wording (which itself is self contradictory)

Not identical by words but is Identical by wordings.

Let me assume you mean YES that the Qur'an of Abubakar is identical in words with the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

Again: How come some of what Ubayy the best Reciter recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

QuinQQ:
Not only that, you won't know they later deleted your post because it will first appear for some time - unless you go back and check after some time. What an INSIDIOUS and dishonest way of doing things!

They have done that for me. The text was deleted the next day after I made the post.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep a copy. This was when I began to suspect that those deletions were not by Bots but by Muslim Moderators

honesttalk21:
No, probably not, can you kindly teach me and other Muslims too. Rable rouser who depends on misconceptions if not outright false presentation.

You are the Muslim; after all, you will still say that my definition is not the meaning

Can you as a muslim differentiate between qiraat and ahruf?

honesttalk21:
What I highlighted is not within my answer but atypical of your characteristic mischief.

Allah never fails in fulfilling what he says.

The Qur’an has been preserved exactly as revealed—within the limits of the aḥruf and qiraat taught by the Prophet.

All authentic differences are part of the revealed Qur’an,any non-authorized or fabricated variants are not part of the Qur’an.
Hence, preservation is perfect and this concept is multifaceted.

I hope I heard you correctly that
All authentic differences are part of the revealed Qur’an,any non-authorized or fabricated variants are not part of the Qur’an

Please answer my questions directly:
1. How many [i]kalam Allah exist in paradise
2. Of the about 36 Arabic Qur'an in existence of which Hafs Qur'an and Warsh Qur'an are the most popular, which version is the exact copy of Kalam Allah in paradise.
3. Do you concur that authentic differences are first differences: and differences are deviations from the original?[/i]
4. Can you give me a list of three to five fabricated verses of the Qur'an with solid evidences?


Differences in the Qur'an mean that Allah couldn't protect his book as he promised!

honesttalk21:
You sure didn't read. I imagine you got lost in the responses to your usual charade of questions. Never seeing one question through before adding multiple others.

Don't forget what you said earlier:

honesttalk21:
....
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

What you have said here is that the Qur'an is NOT identical by words but is Identical in Message, Structure, meaning and recited wording (which itself is self contradictory)

Not identical by words but is Identical by wordings.

Let me assume you mean YES that the Qur'an of Abubakar is identical in words with the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106

Again: How come some of what Ubayy the best Reciter recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
2. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?

3. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?

4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?

5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

QuinQQ:
TenQ don't mind him. He's always asking this hypocritical question. Ok, he's a Hindu. Now what?
Next, he'll bring up ancient history. Comparing apples and cars. Comparing peace-focused Christianity to a religion that has always been bloody, that has been very bloody from it's inception till today!

He had fled my quizzle before as he doesn't like anyone using magnifying glass on their Quran, Hadiths and Sira!
He thinks that Repeating the Same Question without reasoning and engaging with the Arguments make him correct.

Anyone who is not towing the line with his Islamic Scholars are unreasonable and has a deliberate misrepresentation of Islamic sources, a misunderstanding of what words mean, where your entire reply is built on linguistic games, misrepresentation of Islamic history, where ones entire reply rests on a foundation of shallow linguistic pedantry, selective hadith quoting, and a gross misreading of Islamic history, text transmission, and scholarly consensus.

He fled as I began to show him evidences from the Hadiths and Quran that he couldn't deny!

I guess he thinks he can change the subject to something else: lets see!

Do you promise to continue with the debate if I tell you the answer to your Question?

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

I think you should know the answer to this question
I am NOT an Atheist,
I am not a Buddhist
I am not an African Traditional Religionist
I am not an ECK or Grail Message Adherent
I am not a Humanist
I am certainly not a Muslim

I will NOW answer your Question and even MORE:
I am one of those Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ
I Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and thus completely subject to Him
I Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with my Being, Time, Substance and Energy
I Live my life to Please the Lord Jesus Christ in obedience to His will
I am one of many of Christ's Disciple here on Earth
I am NOT even a Pastor or Evangelist at any level!
I guess this should answer your core Question.

My Assignment:
My assignment is to go everywhere to preach the Gospel to ALL Creations so that those who Believe would be saved as those who refuse to Believe are condemned already.
Mark 16:15-16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Why I Engage Muslims everywhere (including on Nairaland)?
1. Because many of them have innocently believed a lie that will take them to Hell fire.
2. They cannot receive nor comprehend the Gospel of Salvation UNTIL the virus of their Islamic Scholars lies are removed

I almost recited the shahada years ago (through Ahmed Deedat) until my eyes were opened to see the depth of lies propagated by the Scholars of Islam to paint it as beautiful and of God. If you can go to Islamic sources, and read exactly what they say, you will find the truth about Islam: thus I made it a mission not just to understand Islam but to understand my "initial Christian" faith.

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Can you as a muslim differentiate between qiraat and ahruf?

honesttalk21:
Of course it is from the time the marks were introduced taking care of the evolution of this.

Remember these marks helped to ensure proper pronounciation was maintained inline with the recitation Quran.

Then you should be able to answer the question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

Both were without marks nor dots nor diacritical marks!

honesttalk21:
Deficit understanding the disciples recorded the recitation of the prophet first in his presence over a span of 23 years then these were compiled in one place.

Uthman later standardised the recitation however this did not eliminate the dialectic and diacritic variants due to the strong ijma.

Nothing lost or added to the Quran finally revised with Muhammad pbuh by Jibril ra.

The truth is working against you bro!

Your evidence said:
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

Did you not say:
"Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded."

QuinQQ:
You nailed it! BTW that post has been deleted. Good thing you responded to it before it was deleted. Definitely a human deleted it and may also delete this one

I actually suspected that it would be deleated, that was why I quickly responded. I wouldnt be supprised if the person you are chatting with is the mod himself. Islam!!!!

Confirmed: It is actually a MOD pretending to be a nairaland bot!


@Seun,
I don't know if you will read this,
A Muslim moderator has been given oversight powers on posts made on Christian section of Nairaland: and he is fond of deleting any post that he doesn't like even when it is not contradicting any nairaland rules.
An example is the post: https://www.nairaland.com/post/135769259


Cc Lalasticlala Nlfpmod Mynd44 Seun Mynd44

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Too bad!
Your evidences worked against you!

Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

honesttalk21:
And your opinion is of what value in comparison? How many papers or books have been published perhaps even in peer reviewed journals by the nairaland character Tenq or the true person behind it?

TenQ is not a prophet, he is a Disciple of Jesus Christ who had been saved from the punishment of Hell fire by the Love of God AND who wishes you to also be saved and freed from the Lies of your Islamic scholars.

honesttalk21:
Angelika Neuwirth states that there’s really no strong evidence to suggest that there was any significant disruption in the text between what the Prophet recited and the version that was compiled shortly after his passing.

The differences exists but not significant!
Okay!!
It therefore cannot be perfectly preserved!

honesttalk21:
Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded.

Correct!
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

This is why the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from the Qur'an of his disciples!

honesttalk21:
Where is your own publication outside your fable rousing on nairaland?

Just as yours, TenQ's publications are on www.nairaland.com/TenQ

LOL!!


Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

honesttalk21:
A reliable number of non-Muslim scholars, including Orientalists and religious historians, have acknowledged the remarkable preservation of the Qur’an, both in its oral and written forms.

Scholars like Kenneth Cragg, William Montgomery Watt, and Angelika Neuwirth have pointed out that, unlike other scriptures, the Qur’an has been passed down with incredible accuracy, thanks to a strong tradition of memorization (ḥifẓ) and the early standardization efforts led by Caliph Uthman following the first compilation of the Qurab into a single Mushaf by Abu Bakr .

They argue that the Uthmanic codex we have today closely reflects what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Even those who are critical recognize that there haven’t been any significant changes to the text, making this level of preservation unparalleled among ancient writings.

This recognition, even from skeptics, underscores the Qur’an’s unique status as a well-preserved revelation in the history of humanity.


Cragg acknowledged the integrity of the Qur’anic text

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time.

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed form early (by late 7th century), supported by manuscript evidence.

No problem, Cragg a western historian says the Qur'an of closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad . Closely reflecting is not perfectly reflecting

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time. Not Fully Preserved

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed continued to change until late 7th century. Editing of the Qur'an stopped during late 7th century

These are all evidences against perfect preservation: don't you think so?



Unfortunately,
the modern Quran closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad is NOT the same as IDENTICAL Qur'an.

Your claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?


As you can see, even the Qur'an of Abubakar is not identical to the Qur'an of Mohammed!

AntiChristian:
The Quran compiled by Abu Bakr is not fundamentally different in content from that revealed to Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam, but it reflects the early efforts to preserve and compile the text. Variations in recitation exist due to different qira'at, which are accepted within Islamic tradition and do not alter the essential teachings of the Quran.

If I get it correctly, the Qur'an of Abubakar is DIFFERENT but not fundamentally Different from the Qur'an of Mohammed!


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
1. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?
2. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?
3. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106
4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Mr Antichristian,
Leaving the mundane of snatching the wife of a fellow Muslim.
A simple question for you sir!
It is you Muslims who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now.

One way of verifying this is by asking this ONE Question:


My question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?



When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.

AntiChristian:
But your God killed himself in Jesus! Just like Sango hanged himself before people started worshipping him.

But your God disagree with it. Who do you believe?

Can you respond:
Why is seducing to marry the wife of a fellow Muslim is not nauseous to you!?

When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.



The Slogan of Muslims is:
Don't confuse me with the TRUTH because I have already made up my Mind!


The Truth sets free

AntiChristian:
At least God no dey kill himself by killing his son!

Even your father no fit kill you because of one kind love not to talk of the Almighty!

Death in Islam doesn't mean translocation but annihilation. Unfortunately for you, your Allah says Jesus did NOT even die.
SMH!

Why is seducing to marry the wife of a fellow Muslim is not nauseous to you!

Mr JimRohn and Mr CreativeOrbit

A simple question for you sir!


My question again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
Hard of seeing, hard of reading or stock in reasoning. You have been already answered before.


In any case your last submission is taken as your submission to the truth of the Quran's preservation.

I hope it benefits you.

What is so difficult with answering a direct question about the word for word, dot for dot preservation of the Qur'an?


My question again:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?