₦airaland Forum

Trudax, don't know if you've seen this but this is a finely written piece by a Nigerian.
http://www.gamji.com/article6000/NEWS7430.htm

How about you? The Christ you follow hasn't spoken audibly to you about who and what is right or wrong. Didn't he speak to Moses and Paul? Or is it because you are black he wouldn't speak to you in Nigeria? Christianity is still a relatively young religion. There was life and people way before the christian doctrine maybe you should learn about the traditions and culture of those people. Start with your tribe.

FYI, There are over 33,000 denominations within christianity and if that isn't confusion then I wonder what is. Could god be telling them different things or is he enjoying the madness. JWs and Mormons and Jihadists are as convinced as you are that the rest of the world is being deceived.

Be liberated from the mental prison of these cults named religions. Not everything that is popular is true. Hope you find out someday.

frosbel2:
Very well observed, unfortunately his followers ( that is those that follow him instead of Christ ) are completely confused and keep pledging their allegiance to this false prophet .

I'm Kalabari and Rex Lawson was a Kalabari man. His surname is common in Kalabari so it was definitely his father that was Kalabari. In fact, many Kalabari people today have matrilineal ancestry with the Ibos, but it is still common that we do not identify with or even as Ibos. I think the culture then was to go marry off ibo girls and bring them to our islands to become part of us. Such tradition was/is very compatible the Ibo tradition of marriage where one literally owns the woman (wife) after fulfilling the marriage rites.

*There's nothing like rivers ibo by the way

deji15:
You are right, I think the father is Kalabari while the mum is Rivers Ibo. But he speaks and sings in Igbo language fluently. He gave them a song which they all danced to in mocking the North after the kiling of their leaders. "Ewu Ne Be Akwa - Goats are Crying".
But when snakes and all kind of reptiles started dancing in their homes, they are shouting blue murder..

Continue asking. You're surely on your way towards atheism.

You rather wear your ignorance as a badge of honour. Keep trolling

Born2Freak:
Just to highlight your ignorance, please look up the duration of Hitler's punishment of the Jews and then the duration of transatlantic slavery.


Then also look at the skin colour of the typical Jews and the typical white American of today and tell me how easy it is to differentiate the two. Jews could pass as white and so, many were able to escape racism for. Other whites in the USA

Exactly. May 29 is around the corner and soon 2019 elections would come. I urge you to watch the campaign promises of MKO Abiola and Tofa elections and compare with the forthcoming 2019 campaigns.

onyenze123:
I am not ashamed to be black. what I am ashamed of is our lack of progress and development compared to other people in this 21st century.

Do you really want to blame slavery? you know I have had this argument before. The Jews were also dealt with mercilessly, Hitler comes to mind. Where are they today? well 40% of them are billionaires and Israel is a developed country.

How about the millions of native Americas that were killed in their ancestral land by Columbus and co?

So stop blaming slavery for even the so called slave trade is as a result of mental laziness. We are still making the mistakes our fore fathers made. The world has left us behind in both human and capital
development.

FYI: China has always been a great civilization. We built the great wall of China? Have you heard about the silk-road? Who built the first civil engineering canal?

Japan has always been a great civilization. Go and read about the imperial Japan.

India is still developing at least they have something to boost about - ICT and Pharmaceutical sector

More or less the same. Religion itself is bondage either way to colonialist/imperialist motives or ignorance. Ours, though not as vicious and bloodthirsty as the Abrahamic ones, weren't any good.

Charlesdock:
The white enslaved us with his religion not with religion. We have our religions before they came.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx17P_O2LI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL88Lmu8vCY

Complete TKO

omohayek:
Really? Or could it be that I simply don't share your blinders with regard to GEJ and the PDP?


And my point is that trying to be all things to all men is the exact opposite of leadership.


This is utterly ridiculous! Where have any of these 3 men overseen gigantic scandals like Dasukigate or Malabu Oil?


Which is why he reversed already signed privatization contracts, setting Nigeria's international reputation and economy back tremendously? You clearly have a different definition of "rule of law" than any I'm used to.


This is just the oil mentality of the past 3 decades talking. You should look up some comparative statistics on taxation some time, and you'll see that Nigerian taxation is extremely low, far lower than is optimal for development. The reason why so few Nigerians care so little about policies and track records, focusing all their attention on candidates tribes and religions instead, is because they see the government merely as a source of "free" goodies to be shared out by tribal champions to their followers. A government that doesn't depend on citizens taxes doesn't have to care too much how they feel about its priorities, as long as it can keep the military and police happy.


Yes, because Lee Kuan Yew was a people person who avoided quarrels, right? Sometimes a man who is willing to fight for what he knows is right is what is needed.


And who exactly nominated him? Perhaps you should have read more carefully what I wrote before responding. To repeat, "a northerner who has El-Rufai's brains and administrative skills, but without the ethnocentrism". I would actually have preferred SLS as a northern candidate, but becoming Emir of Kano has taken him out of the running.


This is simply fact-free conjecture on your part, and a nonsensical one at that. None of the men I've mentioned have the long track record of corruption and incompetence of an Ibori protoge like GEJ. Your blind partisanship has robbed you of all objectivity.


Again, more nonsense. Have you forgotten that the botched privatization of NEPA took place under your hero? Do you know what property rights and judicial independence imply in terms of what any minister can possibly do? And how exactly would "super-Barth" have gotten around Buhari's insistence on pegging the Naira, while denying the DISCOs the freedom to freely adjust the rates they charge? All I see here is more partisan rhetoric divorced from an understanding of the economic and political realities of the power sector.


Here you have half a point, but your partisan zeal blinds you to the fact that Buhari's ministers are only going to be able to do what he allows them to do, which is why we saw more positive movement during the 50 days Buhari was abroad than during the preceding 18 months.


Again, more partisan hot air. Has it occurred to you that they are constrained by what their boss (Buhari) is willing to hear? Since when has Buhari ever been a friend of any market-oriented policies? Why exactly do you think most major policy initiatives seem to happen precisely when he's off in London getting treatment?


It has everything to do with being weak. You clearly don't appreciate that leadership is about leading, which means going out and making a positive case for what you believe, even at the cost of risking immediate disapproval. Try reading a political biography of Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill sometime, to get an appreciation for what that really means: real leaders can call on their followers to make tremendous sacrifices for the future, but to sell such a message, they have to possess a credibility that GEJ lacked, due to the insane amounts of brazen corruption he tolerated.


Where did you get this 1970s "anti imperialist" nonsense from?


Funny how you admit he privatized power, but fail to acknowledge that his selling off the assets to under-capitalized domestic firms had anything to do with the sector's current difficulties. And as for the TSA and "whistle blowing" programs you claim GEJ would have passed, wasn't 6 years enough to "work out the kinks"? Or perhaps "Fortunato" was too worried about getting his share of OPL 245 to want such programs getting in the way?


He is called "weak" because "weak" is exactly what he was, too weak-willed to rein in corrupt subordinates like Dasuki, Obanikoro, Diezani and so many others, and too weak in willpower to resist participating in ripoffs like the Malabu Oil scam.



And here you descend into the lowest form of tribalism and conspiracy theorizing. Are you counting amongst your "3 regions" the same SW that voted for GEJ in 2011, and from which came his loudest supporters when northern politicians were insisting he step down rather than run for re-election? Is that the same region which still gave GEJ 45% of its votes despite the numerous corruption scandals and the unchecked spread of Boko Haram?

You really should be ashamed of yourself for descending to such depths of rank tribalism. That's the only explanation for talking about "regions" supposedly "vowing" to "frustrate" a government, as if 30 or 40 million people all got together in secret somewhere to plot against your faultless hero. That you can't even conceive of a politician winning or losing support on the basis of his track record says a great deal about the limitations of your thinking, so oriented is it to tribalistic talk of "regions" and whatnot.


You'd make a fine spin doctor in Donald Trump's team, with all your talk of "loyalists", as if political appointees don't hold a primary duty to the Nigerian electorate before any particular politician. Again, this just shows how blinkered your mindset is by Nigeria's tribalistic, "national cake" sharing mentality, according to which principles count for nothing, while "loyalty" counts for everything, even when it is to an incompetent crook who just happens to be "our kinsman" or "our son".


Rubbish, rubbish and again rubbish! Who are you to tell me or anyone else what I'm to do "in my life"? Who appointed you chief arbiter? And what's this nonsense about "every government in Nigeria is corrupt including the present one", other than an attempt at pretending that since corruption can never be completely eliminated it ought to be overlooked?

All you've spewed here is a pastiche of apologetic nonsense intended to cover your blind support for rank incompetence and thievery, and it's as transparent as day that you're doing so because you see GEJ as one of "your own", to be defended to the death purely on the basis of tribe alone, otherwise, you wouldn't keep bringing up that nonsense about his being a "minority civilian president", as if that excused overseeing an orgy of thieving even as an insurgency was spreading like wildfire in the north-east.

The unfortunate thing is that I nearly mistook you for one of the few intelligent and reasonably objective commenters on Nairaland, but in blindly defending a regime that virtually all international observers - including the NYT, the FT, the Economist, Transparency International, the UK government, and now, the Italian legal system - damned for its festering corruption, you've disabused me of any illusions I might have had about you.

Thanks. The problem is certainly not genetic, good thing it isn't because Nigeria as it is today presents all sorts of problems and troubles that prompts everyone living here to wonder and ask if there is something inherently wrong with us. But it's more about intellectual laziness combined with culture and traditions enforced by religion and superstition. The best method to connect with the minds of great thinkers and inventors over time is by reading their works and I am better for it. Intelligence grows and people get better with training and education. The internet has made the world smaller with the ease of access to information, and nigerians must start looking.

Today, I engaged an former classmate of mine, currently in the civil service, and told him 10 years from now nobody in the west would go for lectures with notebooks and pens. Imagine mobile phones ten years ago, perhaps, we could be so connected that actual contact time with lecturers would almost be non-existent.

In contrast, It is really unfortunate that the political class are, maybe unconsciously from our ultra-conservative nature, keeping the future generations more and more at a disadvantage such that even in Lagos there are schools without roofs, desks and books and school children without any materials. Twenty years ago, a prospective student in the third world with a scholarship may not have had to deal with so much computerisation, currently, you are by default expected to learn and express your ideas using computers with decent typing speed. I have written my representatives, but Nigeria is just one hell of a place.

The future is in science and technology, by now it is no longer an expectation that anybody with some form of education should know how to operate computers. Humans are evolving into weaker species with much more developed brains and with increasing competition, it's no longer the strong that survives but the people with higher intellect.

Your father did great for his family. So should everyone. Like yours, my father was very poor and did well to afford us good education. I would for mine as well and my community. Education of true learning and curiosity cannot be overemphasised. More so now than ever. As for Nigeria, a referendum would be a good restart. We need to decide whether we want to create a decent society or this chaos we have now.

I agree with you. You know there are more genes for intelligence on the X chromosome than the Y, so 'educate a woman and you educate a nation' is actually scientific.

mindeed:
Interesting topic, spent the last few hours engulfed by the arguments on here particularly between TheEminentLaity and Sauerr.
TheEminentLaity, I really commend your humility, and willingness to accept a stronger argument than yours, you took it like a man, very refreshing. And for you Sauerr, I loved your persistence and drive to drive down your points, I eventually gave in, and found my head nodding in agreement.

In my little mind, when I considered this topic of intelligence and Africa, all I did was look around me, and there laid the answer. I noticed all my intelligent friends and colleagues who were capable of effecting change in Nigeria have fled to more developed climes…with no immediate plans to return, and those who did return where burned by a number of constraints. When you are burned once and then some, its very easy to get discouraged to do more for your people. It’s extremely difficult to break the cycle and chains of poverty and illiteracy, children just recycle the mistakes of their parents, it’s hard to breakaway from what your environment/society dictates.

My father was able to through reading books, magazines and newspapers that rapidly revamped his mindset, values and overall views of life. He too was once stuck in the pits of poverty somewhere in the villages here in Nigeria, but he broke away, transferred this new knowledge to his children and that cycle is likely to continue. If this is replicated in at least 70% of families, the renaissance may occur. If he had left for the west and never returned (which has been the norm in Africa), I wouldn’t be here typing this.

Madam-all-profession Her comments are quite entertaining. Staking all her experience to validate Nigerian charlatans. Apparently, she has no idea how new frontiers in medicine come about so she discredits medical journals and literature until she experiences it in her field work. Therefore, any aspect she hadn't been taught or encountered is a miracle and God, perhaps going further as a 'believer' to say it is the christian god. She is the kind that would not hesitate to refer patients to these preachers. It clearly shows that anyone can become a paramedic, at least where she got her training.
Little wonder when professionals with several years of international experience return to Nigeria end up as clueless and superstious as those without exposure.
I'm still reading through, this is another interesting one.

adepeter26:
You know what Bro? They are both good. (I mean both parties).

Madam of all Profession was making her points based on experience (long)
While Billy was making his own points based on short time experience and medical school Theories. If billy were to be in the profession for quite the period of time or close as compared to Madam all Profession, they would have understood each other better...

Long time experience and long time theories are two different things.....
If Billy was to go deep into theories, trust me, the so called Paramedics will keep quiet.
And if madam too starts to use experience and events she have encountered, Billy as well will get lost...

Billy failed to realised Madam was talking based on long term experience and what she knew.....

Is it you or is it the kind of training you got because I'm puzzled. Are you a paramedic in homeopathy?

spacetacular:
You meant to say medical journal knowledge and not educational knowledge in verified medicine as a practitioner. You say you are better qualified yet wrongly diagnosed anoxia as hypoxia and I corrected you.

Dr Fish why are you finding it hard to tell me your medical specialty?

If indeed you are a paramedic or doctor, this right here illustrates that dull people do indeed pass medical licencing exams. Nothing more.

spacetacular:
ouch Mr fish did I rub you the wrong way? I apologize though. However I would rather trust anyone with close to a decade of professional medical field experience and who is attached to 17 emergency hospitals on my route than anyone whose focus is on medical journals alone even after I showed you how medical journals lie and bend the truth always. Without verification, nothing written in any medical journal is credible. How many contents of the medical journals you keep talking about have you personally tried, checked and found true for yourself?


The Autoresuscitation you mentioned elsewhere is one of such. What mechanism have you applied that worked and proved autoresuscitation to be a medically achievable reality?

You mentioned spontaneous remission for cancer patients as being caused by their immune system finally kicking in. Please what medical school did you graduate from?

If I may ask especially since you claim to be a medical doctor despite your medical ignorance can you tell me your medical specialty?

ifenes:
Thanks for that Mr. Is that all? I see a different Nigeria to you, yours is dark mine is shinning and bright. Why use different accounts tho? I may be an id!ot , yet proud of my people. Your opinion is short sighted, shouldn't be taken serious. Like I said, love yourself. I happen to visit Nigeria a lot and I'm yet to meet people who reason like you....that's the reality I have chosen to experience.

You see why I question your intelligence? How does 'the reality you choose to experience change the statistics?' You have no knowledge of probability and cognitive biases, yet you spew nonsense about science and technology and education. Bringing up new age crap as a contribution to a sensible discourse I lived, grew up and worked in Nigeria, and I am currently in the frontline of science, I have publications to my name, and I work with some of the leading scholars in the world within my area in the sciences. My family is in Nigeria, so I don't just visit Nigeria to get in tune with nature, I have stakes in Nigeria. I'm in Nigeria at the moment, even.

The injustice and lackadaisical attitude towards any meaningful endeavour is one of the worst in the world.
Months ago my cousin was very sick, had fluid retention with swollen limbs, when he was taken to the one of the major state hospitals, after supposed tests, he was asked to go to church. Doctors now refer patients to church. Of course, he tried those pentecostal fraudsters for healing but he learnt the hard way.

Last year, my uncle was kidnapped and almost killed. What did the police do even after we paid them? They bought drinks. What did wrong the man do but leave Canada as an experienced Surgeon to set up a hospital, one of its kind in the State that even does free procedures for old people. These are just some of the few horrible personal experiences and I know how much worse it is because we are far from average, how much worse would it be for poor people. Or how my case in court about conflict of interest for trying to set up a science institute for young is being adjourned for almost 2 years now.

Go to church, people dedicate babies all the time, almost 8 out of 10 would give testimonies of how the doctor said they wouldn't make it before 'god intervened' Childbirth

It might be convenient for you to live in your cocoon but statistics don't change because you feel good, you live in a big and secure house or that you have superiority complex, it only does when people do something about it. And the first step is to acknowledge that something is not right by objective analyses. See a bright Nigeria all you want but it doesn't change jack about reality.
Along with curiousity, the spur for scientific advancement has been based upon skepticism and doubt. If there's anything I'd take from this overstated thread is that, there is indeed a threshold of intelligence to acknowledge that something(s) is wrong.

ifenes:
You cannot solve problems like them because our societies( typical African societies) are shaped differently. [b]We are naturally more in tune with nature and preservation of the planet. The white man is all about survival and destruction. I don't think that itself is intelligence. You see the animals, fish sticking to their natural habitat, not because they are less intelligent, but for the fact that they cannot be bothered to be the jack of all trades and masters of none

We know technology is a good thing just as it can also be a huge curse. How has the white man solved his problems so far? Look at world war 1 and 2, these guys almost eliminated themselves due to power sruggles. Was that the right solutions to conflict. Perhaps Africans have learned and realised the need for us to enjoy the planet without causing ourselves unnecessary headaches with technology.

It's been said that the planet itself had been desolated about 6 times with technology. Could we be staying out of it due to a knowledge we ones had? Could that be the reason we rather watch the over- zealous white babies build atomic bombs capable of destroying the planet 4 times? What intelligence comes from having a toxic weapon that can destroy the entire human race.

Intelligence shouldn't be interpreted alone in developing terrific scientific gadget. I think intelligent should be understand the way we could put our minds to work on relevant stuff

How come these so called superior race haven't figured out how to replicate the pyramids built by the ancient ( most likely blacks). The White man is not helping anyone by building technology but instead is making himself a slave to it. Are we better if using a calculator or high developed retentive memory? Time will tell. To me they haven't solved anything.

Of course they had to be organised because they are the ones without resources. The predators are often the ones to carve out means to hunt. What eventually happens to super- predators? Nature makes them go extinct.[/b]

You live in Europe and you have the nerve to spew this nonsense You are such a doofus. Unintelligent mo.ron. Why don't you go live in tune with nature in Nigeria. No wonder you were just defending Nigeria like an insecure troll. You have no experience in the country today. You and the other troll are not even worth mentions. People like you are the true enemies of the black man. Id!ot uses a smartphone and the internet you speak about getting in tune with nature. You even ask how has the white man solved his problem. Such buffoonery!

ifenes:
During my college years the head teacher was a Nigerian. He was so good we all wanted him too take us on all our courses. My doctor is also a back man( Nigerian), I have used him for at least the past 13 years now. Talk of train drivers, pilots,you see black taking major roles and we must consider the fact that it wasn't our primary way of life.

Africa is full of resources and raw potential. Personally I see the people of Africa as the most important resources of our nations. As we project toward the right direction, despite lots of set backs, we are bound to be excellence. We have produce one of the most beautiful minds to the world, talk of Chinwe Achebe, Wale Soyinka etc. The local councellor of my residence is also black( a Nigerian),a great guy I am really proud of. My last visit to the U.S, I met amazing blacks from Africa doing great, even in Nigeria we are doing great, except " maybe"in the OP's family of course.Those with inferiority complex in their heritage will feel useless to this planet. Everyone is intelligent in their own ways and can adapt when things change. Together we are called the human race.

You are the one with inferiority complex. You cannot even grasp the topic. 'Everyone is intelligent in their own ways' is usually what underachievers with inferiority complex say when they meet intelligent people.

We should argue not to win but to learn. Like someone mentioned, you pleaded for contributions but it appears now that you insult these same people. The Nigerian situation is sickening to be honest, especially the more one knows about scientific advancements the more sad. Personally, I can hardly even have a conversation with supposed graduates even those with advanced degrees. Curse be to these abrahamic religions and their nonsense. I am learning not to care at all, to stay quiet and laugh at this comedy, but how can I laugh at my own people?

Trudax:
You all can lie to yourselves all you want. You can blame the environment and blame the culture, but isn't the culture and the environment a product of the thinking, easily avoidable mistakes and structural errors of sub-saharan Africans? And I am tired of this whole language game about race. Sub-saharan Africans, the people who currently dominate the parts of western, southern and eastern Africa, are intellectually inferior to people everywhere else, on the average. And the kind of intelligence I am referring to is the ability to think critically and objectively, to decipher complex issues and to reason abstractly. This is my opinion and I'll keep on having this opinion until I find evidence that says otherwise. But right now, I am more than convinced. You all can keep yanning bullshit, until one world power decides to perform a holocaust on black people, then maybe you'll change their mind with your argument that race doesn't exist. Nonsense!

It seems you desperately want to be right than objective. Nurture and environment plays a key role in developing the ability to, in your words, "to think critically and objectively, to decipher complex issues and to reason abstractly" Ideas don't come in out of nothing. Einstein didn't just wake and had a Eureka moment with relativity. Although, he couldn't get a faculty position, he worked as a clerk that read physics publications. Plato, Archimedes, Euclid, Boltzmann, James Clerk Maxwell, Darwin etc these guys were constantly learning until they found something. Such reasoning is developed more so than one being born with it. There are indeed geniuses but then again training is required. Also, discoveries have been made by not-so-smart people. The western societies have a scientific history that dates centuries BC and science never makes sense until the cumulative story and effect is seen. Sub-saharan Africa on the other hand have no history of such or they just weren't as sophisticated.

We may not be intellectually inferior, although it is really difficult trying to convince anyone along that line, but we are not serious. We don't even know how bad it is, we don't see it as a national emergency. To be fair, Indians have a scientific history as well with people like Raman, Chandrasekhar, and even recent V Ramakrishnan so it could also play a key role for motivation. Children being impressionable and mostly imitate what they see around them and hold on the values passed on to them by their parents. Black people have showed to be able to perform as good as other races, only but a few.

Other parts of the world are progressing at lightening speed, and in meaningful areas, while sub-saharan Africa is regressing in the same speed. If we had as many intelligent people as they had, and at the same statistical average as them, why aren't we progressing as they are? Is information a problem? Anyone can get as much information as he wants today. Why cant we utilize the mountain of information available to move our country forward? Why can't we rule ourselves? How is that so hard to do? Why can't we build sustainable and progressive political structures? Why do we have lots of greedy and unintelligent people in positions of power? Why do we still have a very pious majority, despite how obviously flawed and harmful religious beliefs are? Why are we still mired in this quick sand of tribal bigotry? If we actually had lots of intelligent people, then it would follow that we would be less tribalistic, but the reverse is the case.

Its much more complex than you think. Humans, like other animals would take the path of least resistance. In Nigeria today, being honest and upright, sadly being intelligent in literary endeavours is going against the tide. Trying to fix Nigeria is going against a Tsunami. People might kill you first before looking at the evidence, or no time to even look at the evidence Jesus/Jehovah is coming soon so who cares about the dying world, he would save just me and my family. Whenever things get worse, it is interpreted as signs of end-time and people don't even see how such beliefs are keeping us in bondage

it doesn't take one to be a genius to let go of culturally entrenched prejudices and stereotypes.

This right here, is much harder than you think. Just look at that troll, how he thinks he knows and god is speaking to him. It is long breaking free from indoctrination.

It's only when we evaluate a situation with honesty and objectivity, that we can recognize the problems underlying that situation and mitigate them.

Me, na siddon look I dey. I would raise my children right, and encourage curiosity in them. My only effort currently would be to push for a referendum and hope we get it because to a system which has the least educated with secondary school cutoffs as low as 2/600 in political positions and the civil service, certainly won't see the need for education and has no future. I was a teacher during my national service year and I learnt students don't fail and repeat a class in government schools. In SS3 class only a handful of students could write, but they all want to be doctors and engineers and worse they are supported by their parents and teachers. Nigeria is truly a disgrace to independent nations. Let me end here.

Many times exposure enlightens. I hold no prejudices against them. They are human beings and I know quite a few. It's really shameful that Nigeria passed a law to criminalise them with long prison sentence yet rape cases, domestic violence, and pedophilia have options of fine and short sentences. Talk about priorities. I often ask people, to pause for a second and ask themselves, why do you hate these people? It's either 'god hates it' or some other religious or cultural reason.

sauerr:
It's really mostly true. I have a friend who would vilify a gay person and only stop short of killing him/her while he was in Nigeria. I, on the other hand, often advised him to demonstrate tolerance. He traveled to Germany and after spending only three years encountering many more gay persons that he would have met in a lifetime in Nigeria, he reversed his position and began showing the smoothest tolerance of them you can ever imagine. If this isn't nurture opening a brother's mind, I don't know what else is?

Caveat: If you are not tolerant of LGBTs, I can understand if this arguments doesn't hit home

Interesting. I like how you illustrated how nurture plays a role. I, prior to this, would have been more inclined to associate Nigerians 'detransforming' the US into a third world country to some biological trait.

sauerr:
And you think the greatest, blinding, most sophisticated advances made by one race (or a handful of races) is due to the 1 to 2 percent of Neanderthal present in their gene? I don't accept this thinking. For one, it is not substantiated scientifically. Second, if tables were turned and Africans were the more developed race, your line of reasoning would be that the Homo Sapiens that produced Europeans were "contaminated" by a backward race of Neanderthals and this slowed their intelligence. Africans, instead, are pure.
This sorts of arguments merely prey on the absence of one thing as an indicator for another, deriving from the same logic that blames the witch for the child's death. I don't think that's scientific.

I understand you are looking for explanations. But I said it already. It's all down to nurture. Let's do a thought experiment: if we take the whole Nigerian population and we send them to America, while we send the Americans down to Nigeria, then wait a hundred years. What do you think will happen? Personally, I think in that time, America will most likely become backward, desperate Nigeria, while Nigeria will become the new refreshing, developed America. Just a personal thinking. I say this because, nurture will not arrive from wallowing in the same society that does not recognize its influence. However, if you took only a handful of Nigerians (maybe only 50) and you send them to America for education, perhaps, it is more likely that the environment will nurture them rightly and they would grow into persons of significant character and intelligence. That's what I think. Nurture would play a more significant role in rightly shaping them into more rounded individuals. Some of the Chibok girls who are now studying in America are a very good example. Do you think they would have gotten as much opportunity to be more rounded in Nigeria? Even in that school they were in in Chibok?


I agree it is only a matter of priorities. And I do not even refer to hacking. They don't hack; their level of training simply isn't that phenomenal. I only refer to the schemes they develop in order to cheat people out of their money. Do you agree that it takes more than average intelligence to cheat a supposedly averagely intelligent American out of his hard-earned money?



I hope you know that the world recorder holder in the women's marathon is the British runner, Paula Radcliffe, and not some eastern African? Isn't that evidence everyone is just as capable?

You have progressively made good arguments and even spotted inconsistencies within mine. Good one. Nothing much to object here, I do hope we get our intellectual revolution in science education. I certainly downplayed the role of nurture and environment towards intellectual expression, as someone mentioned, ability and expression are different.

sauerr:
I share your sentiments a 100%. I am also repulsed by these religious dogmas and what they have unleashed on a hapless population. I am not religious, neither am I a christian. However, we mustn't forget that 17-18th century Europe was riddled with as much religiousity as the Nigeria of today. Similarly, the belief in witches and transmogrification (more like what currently obtains in Nigeria) thrived without bounds in Europe only a few hundred years ago. Were they then not intelligent at that time? Obviously not. That Nigeria, or maybe the many black countries, suffer today from the consequences of 18th century beliefs is certainly not a testament to the innate unintelligence of the whole mass. We only need look at today's intelligent Europe, which once entertained the exact same beliefs, in order to realize that Nigeria (or perhaps many other black countries) is yet to obtain its illuminating enlightenment. When it does (certainly by education and nurture), the result will no doubt be a revelation that, on the average, the whole mass is not lacking in intelligence.

Now, the big question is, why can't they just simply learn from history and move on gladly beyond these medieval thinking? Again, nurture! What they get in today's schools, universities and persons of authority is certainly not enough (we know how bad they are). Just a little more, and we certainly can get there.

Also, if intelligence does morph over time (to which you agree), who is to say the right kind of enabling environment cannot unleash the intelligence resident in the sub-Saharan African? The intelligence progressively observed with yahoo-yahoo?
I do think it is indeed an over-stretching leap to tie this to genetics. What exactly about genetics? The DNA? What item of genetics? I am only curious. Genetics after all is material.

Comments that include the word 'religion' turns you on. Abeg, waka pass

KingEbukaNaija:
You keep blaming religion for your woes while the people who made these remarkable inventions and scientific discoveries and theories were religious and very superstitious . Even few atheists who managed to make discoveries are religious .

The Chinese are very superstitious people yet it didn't preclude them from being at the forefront of industrialization and economical growth .

Steve Jobs was an atheist as well as a Buddhist . Sir Tim Berners-Lee , is an atheist , a founder of the WWW , is a member of Unitarian Universalism seeking spiritual enlightenment .

I still maintain that Nigerian atheists are not intellectually bright people .

This is a good one.

sauerr:
Effectively, you have summed "intelligence", rounded it and shut it up in box. Clearly, you demonstrate more open-mindedness than that. Intelligence certainly isn't only a function of "organization and development". Genghis Khan's war strategies were not the epitome of organization, even though he achieved world domination with it. Instead, they were unique at the time. And when the Islamic golden age fell apart in the 14th century, the "intelligence" of the natives didn't immediately evaporate with the disorganization that followed. I think you need to reassess your underlying argument.

Interesting.

Your admission, which is inevitable anyways, simply disproves your claim. If the Persians were the most intelligent at that time (and by the same reasoning, are no longer the most intelligent today), shouldn't that mean that your denigrated sub-Saharan Africans could become the most intelligent tomorrow?

Yes, it does. Thanks for pointing that out. However, it doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of genetics for underdevelopment and absence of original sophisticated systems by black africans. Even in Europe, ancient Spain was once the most sophisticated I think, but they are not anymore but from the link I posted on Neanderthal (gone extinct, had larger brains) genes present in those that live outside Africa, still gives credence to that. The study indicates that the african is significantly different from other races.

That's your claim. For some others, the fact that these supposedly unintelligent (on the average, you say) sub-Saharan Africans are able to outwit the largely (on the average) intelligent Americans is an indication that they (the sub-Saharan African) are probably smarter. We must confess, the FBI often has to play catch up with their latest "yahoo" inventions.

Yahoo inventions I disagree totally. Nigerians are not the best hackers in the world, neither are they the best computer geeks, I believe those require much higher level of intelligence than sending emails about the death of a billionaire chairman. Creation of sophisticated systems is a good indicator very advanced intellect in the world today. If those 'smart' yahoo guys could design and develop say FB they would be into fraud in the first place. And by the way, it's easy for them to be caught by the FBI, it's only a matter of priorities.

Of course he would survive. But the question is if he would have become the outstanding formula one driver he is today. It would have been easy to make the claim that blacks can't simply race a formula one, were a Lewis Hamilton not present in the series. You see my argument? Yet, Lewis is really not doing anything special. He's simply a human who got an opportunity.

Oh yeah, so true. This is actually in line with the person that talked about east africans and long sprinting.

I'm in agreement with a lot you have here, especially that intelligence morphs and it isn't static. However, it might be an over-stretching leap to infer that it could be genetic, because I cannot say, but I do not rule that possibility out despite my race being the subject. I mentioned here that even if it was us not meeting our potential, how do we even measure that when we are not even trying at all. It seems the world is passing us by but we are only getting increasingly superstitious from religious affiliations.

I have always harped on about solid science education for liberation and I'm very antagonistic towards religious beliefs especially our nigerian model because it occupies otherwise productive minds and fills their minds up with nonsense, unproductive, useless nonsense. I understand it changes some people but I am repulsed by it and its potency in holding black people back and making them comfortable.

Education would change a lot but currently it doesn't look like we have shown intellectual superiority.

sauerr:
Your reasoning in terms of averages is certainly valid. I also agree that we should look at this subject through non-emotional lenses, as objectively as possible.

Of course, you'd agree that if the average is high in any society, then that society should be developed. Of the highly intelligent people, who are numerous, there should arise at least one man who would be able to take the society (or country) to the promise land. In that sense, I grant you that on the average, Nigerians are certainly less intelligent than Americans, for example. Now, taking the leap from here to the claim that this suggests Nigerians (or sub-Saharan Africans, if you like) are overall doomed to being generally less intelligent than other races portends taking a blind leap devoid of evidentiary support. By making this claim, you are suggesting that "it is in the genes" and there is not much the sub-Saharan average can do about being any more intelligent than they are destined to be. That's where I think you are getting it wrong.

If anything has been proven any more clearly in that hundred years of human advancement, it is that intelligence is not a set attribute, just as it is regarded that behaviour is not a set attribute. Intelligence morphs over time, taking different forms of expression dependent on the "nurture" or "environment" it is exposed to. That the mathematical ingenuity of Isaac Newton gave way to phantom alchemic exprimentations in his latter days says nothing about how truly intelligent he was; that the great Benjamin Franklin originally owned and dealt in slaves reveals nothing about how open and unbounded his thoughts were. So, what yardsticks can you then use to define the intelligence of a society or of a people? Certainly not the fact that they are unable to create a functioning society by themselves when they themselves are yet to "averagely" rise up the intellectual scale. Or would you? This is where you give them good education first and liberate them (just as was done with Franklin's and Newton's societies!). Again, nurture!

My opinion, you should have provided your own reasons rather that in your opinion supersede mine.

sauerr:
This is such a tall and quite unsound argument to make. "You can only infer it could be genetic"? And it could be some other thing too? If you have no basic scientific support for your claim that it is genetic, I don't think it's wise to make that argument, especially when you could find a ton other reasons it "could" be.

sauerr:
I think you are making this mistake because you have exhaustively tied intelligence to societal development. An argument can be made that it isn't always the case. When the Mongols created by sheer terror one of the greatest empires of ancient times, so great Genghis has become common name, would we be right to say they demonstrated greater intelligence than all other nations of the world at that time? If yes, then for a period that lasted hundreds of years, the Mongols were the most intelligent?

Yes, what I base my argument upon. The most intelligent on average is most likely to be the most organised and developed.

Or while the black plague raged in Europe and the continent knew no development, would the Persians who, on their part, churned out algebra, geometry and other beautiful sciences have ranked as the most intelligent at this time?

I don't see why not.

Let's come home. As these so-called unintelligent Africans are able to "scam" millions of supposedly more intelligent (on the average) Westerners off their pay check through shady, though often ingenious, devices, does that make them rank any better in your estimation?

It actually requires a higher intellect to imagine and know ripple effects and repercussions of such activities do to the larger community. Judicial systems are concepts of sophisticated intelligence other primates have no such abilities thus have no such systems.

I think you are asking the wrong questions. Researches have shown repeatedly that man is merely a function of nature and nurture. Nothing more. A Lewis Hamilton would stand no chance in Nigeria. He wouldn't even know what formula one was if he lived in Nigeria.
Clearly, his circumstances have instead today made him into a champion.

No, the same could be said about you that you would stand no chance living in Russia in the winter but we know that is not the case. He may not be a formula one driver but it's very likely that he would survive. However, I think this is sort of unrelated perhaps I don't see the relationship but sophisticated systems, concepts and inventions begin with sophisticated thoughts by intellectually advanced individuals and such intellectual thinking to solve our problems is apparently lacking in sub-saharan Africa

We can have this argument if you want. I enjoy it.

Sarassin:
The OP’s question has been answered severally, the trouble seems to be that the answer is not to your or the OP's liking. There is no empirical or scientific yardstick to come to the odious conclusion that the sub-Saharan Negroid is inherently intellectually inferior to his Caucasian counterpart, there is no genetic correlation between intelligence and race as the OP tried to slyly palm off, none whatsoever.

What you seem to do is outrightly dismiss that there isn't any possibility but that is in no way a scientific position to take. DNA fingerprinting shows Africans are different from other races. There are similarities within black communities along the lines of oppression, poverty, disorganisation and underdevelopment and I can only infer that it could be genetic.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/neanderthal/

This is a very sensitive issue with ugly history but It doesn't and wouldn't distort any facts, no matter how uncomfortable. There may not be studies linking underdevelopment with genetics and intellectual ability, or that I haven't looked but the conversation certainly would come up and I am inclined towards that because it's been a bloody long especially when we compare our freedom with other former colonies. What is your explanation from your own observation?

If we define Intellectual superiority as the ability to solve one's problem with greatest of ease in comparison, where does the black african stand among other races?

Intellectual: A person that possesses a highly developed intellect

Going by averages to at least increase the curve, how many sub-saharan Africans have a highly developed intellect?

Nobody is saying that all is rosy in the sub-Saharan African garden, there are critical issues of development that need to be addressed but you appear to pre-suppose that the perceived inability of Sub-Saharan Africans to organize and govern themselves is due to an inherent intellectual inferiority, in the absence of cogent evidence such a stance amounts to little more than dog-whistle rabble-rousing.

It might be, it appears so. Humans are mainly different from Chimpazees because of their more advanced intellect, while chimps cannot have non-chaotic gatherings of over about 20 individuals, humans can have close to and over a billion eg. Roman Catholic or Muslim gatherings. The human ability to create concepts and believe them set us apart and organisation is another good indicator of sophistication.

You state that some young Nigerians are advocating a return to colonialism and that Nigerian workers prefer to work for a white man because they claim they won't get cheated, should we therefore encourage them to advocate a return to slavery because at least, they’d have a full time job and three square meals a day? Or should we encourage best practices in the workplace? What price a birth right?

Of course not. It is only indicative of the average perception of the people that the foreign pale coloured man might be superior in mannerisms and ethics. Actions speak much louder than fine words. What others consider mundane civil practices as common sense, we sometimes need whips to do the same things. There are a lot of factors to consider, but outright dismissal and condescending remarks is not the proper way to go.

HardMirror:
In your experience as a teacher, you have made observations to conclude that your negro students don't have the mental capability of other races? Or from where comes your conclusion that we are intellectually inferior? From our poor underdeveloped society? Is that an indication that we are inherently interlectually incapable?

Jeez! Where or when did I say that? I am a black african man, pure breed from my full african ancestors and I'm a not doing badly in academics. I could probably be used as motivation for young black africans who live in Nigeria and aspire to study and do research in the sciences at elite universities or even go further to aspire for a Nobel prize in science. But, I'm just one person. The average needs to go up. For every, say, Okonjo Iweala in 160m Nigerians, there are a thousand to ten thousand among 120m Japanese. Not everyone would get into Harvard or become that prolific but educated people won't elect id!ots over and over again especially those that contributed to it's regression in the first place worse still celebrate them. Besides, education makes people much more tolerant and sensible. Our averages need to go up because the result is what is apparent when you look at the level of underdevelopment and mediocrity celebrated by black people. Nigerians have to get serious and more of our people need to come in.

In my uni there were just a handful of black people in my department, just three africans (all Nigerians) and it gets less the higher up you go but you would think that the way Nigerians go for degrees you would find a lot of them there. So the argument about black people coming out top in foreign universities while true, doesn't paint a very accurate picture. Rather, how many are coming out top in elite foreign universities because there are many community colleges in the US, for example, that have lower standards in comparison.

There are generally fewer intelligent people as there are unintelligent people but this talk is about averages not potential (how do you even determine potential especially when one isn't trying at all?) The OP asked a question, and my response from observation is that we, speaking as a Nigerian, we have never shown (we won't have been captured if otherwise) have not and are still not showing in anyway anything other than intellectual inferiority to other races from the increased likelihood of poverty, disorganisation, and underdevelopment within black circles. Could it be genetic? Likely, because behaviours are similar within black african nations. However, I cannot outrightly say that. But the evidence needs to prove otherwise.

HardMirror:
interesting. Show me where I made that ascertion that negros are intellectually inferior. *smiles*

No, you didn't you only ruled out any possibility that that may be the case by giving examples (outliers)

You just want to take this personal don't you with the rate of "emotions" you keep bringing up.

Nothing personal trust me.

Anyway, since we are not incapable of understanding and even supassing other races in any intellectual test, I would hold my ground that we are not inferior to any race. We may not prioritize science, technology and literary advancements, that is not an issue of intellect. If a dog or chimpanzee can't achieve civilization as caucasians have achieved, I don't need to think too hard to know they lack the mental capabilty. But this is not the case with negros, while investigating why we are underdeveloped, the issue of intellect is not put to question, other factors are responsible. There is the difference

Red the red-lettered words you wrote. Why do you think it's intellect for dogs and chimpazees but not include it when it comes to blacks? I could go on about how homo sapiens are genetically and behaviourally very similar to chimpazees. Anyway, I understand your stand. Environmental factors, "flash of genius" like you said could play a role.

I answered the you before. I cannot say if it is genetic, that would need experiments even so there could be a wide margin of error in who one decides to use for such research. However, going by observation by their inability to govern and be organised after decades of independence, black people in general are not showing any signs of higher intelligence than other races. If anyone disagrees, why don't they show how generally black people have shown superior intelligence. I don't understand the reactions here. Going by indices, poverty is more likely to be found in a black community than any other race.
I mentioned that the evidence needs to prove otherwise. How on earth is this inferiority complex? I speak 3 languages and teach sciences to undergraduates in a developed country and people talk about inferiority complex

HardMirror:
I pray you, educate us, tell us why the black man is intellectally inferior. Is it genetic? Are our brains smaller or lacking some components the white man's brain has?

I only mimicked what you have been doing all along. Maybe you don't get it. Read your comments again. Didn't you mention somewhere that you are not intellectually inferior, therefore there is and can never be that possibility of black people being inferior. That's being emotional, giving the inferiority complex tag to anyone asking an uncomfortable question shows that. Being defensive without considering the arguments is being emotional.

Are there no cogent reasons to ask the question the OP asked? If you weren't being emotional, maybe you would have asked why the question in the first place. I even mentioned to you what do you observe among all humans, what is apparent? I've heard young nigerians wanting colonisation again because they think the country is worse off in the hands of their people. Some people want the oppressive military regime back. You think such uncomfortable questions fall from the sky?
The average Nigerian worker would prefer working for a white man (or would you argue against this?) because he is less likely to be cheated or owed than when working for his kind.

It was a question that was meant to be discussed before the name tagging. I think I have expressed myself enough.

HardMirror:
What is all this emotions you are talking about? If you have a point to make, make it and stop trying to label those who don't agree with you. You seem confused. You say you are not intellectually lazy, yet you say whites are superior to us, then again you are now sayiing you can't bow to every white man as a recognition of their intellection prowess. What exactly is your point?
Make it clear what is your position on the black race. Are other races superior to us intellectally or not? Make it simple and clear.
My stand is they are not. What is yours?

Dude, nobody is talking about illiteracy in the UK. Even so, you have the nerve to compare? Do you even live in Nigeria? I doubt you know the scale of poverty illiteracy our country is dealing with. Nigeria is much bigger than Lagos Abuja Port harcourt and few other cities. Boko haram has displaced over 2 million people. Do you even know that if this number was in any neighbouring country in west Africa it would have been a full scale war but here we are like nothing's even happening.

I put it to you that you have never experienced life in top civilisations, you need to travel a little, a little exposure would put some dose of objectivity into you. Start with Nigeria, then other African countries maybe when you return then you would ask the same questions. I wonder why you are embarassed. And it's not bad at all rather start making effort to do the little you can.

ifenes:
The amount of illiterate whites in the UK will shock you bro. Look at Brexit, a few politicians fooled their huge numbers of illiterates to get a vote against staying in the European Union. They simply told them voting against EU will stop Aficans and Indians from coming into the country, amongst other rediculous stuff. We would assume a clever mind will find out what the EU is about first before voting. As soon as the referendum was over they realised they had been tricked. Some even claimed going out the EU will means England will not participate in European football .......shocking!

A few whites have been responsible for technology, not many. Africans have never really been interested in thechnology until recently. I doubt the average black person is interested in going to the moon. How many black person has the interest of jumping from sky scrapers, planes or even building atomic weapons. We had lots of plenty in the past and we see the planet as our home. we are naturally inclined to nature, family and forming a romantic society. This doesn't make us less or more intelligent to others.

Oh look at that Look who's generalising? I am not intellectually lazy. So whenever I see a white man I should bow to one who is more intellectually assiduous?It must be inferiority complex. In fact what is race? How is race defined? Getting all emotional rather than hold a conversation

=HardMirror post=56596149]
Our problem is not bad leadership, else how did the bad leaders get into power in the first place. I can say the black man is actually intellectually lazy (not intellectually incapable or inferior) that is our main problem. Just leave me in peace and give me food is all what many want. Hey! Let's work on researches in our higher institutions! No no no. The VC is not interested in that, but bring ideas that would help embezle contact money and the VC would be 100% in. It is a cultural thing. We celebrate very primative things here. So I don't blame the OP for concluding we are inferior. But he shld know we are not, we are just not motivated and interested in tapping into our intellect

You know I'm kind of puzzled why you feel offended. If she is white would it make you feel better?

ifenes:
You may marry a lady not on IG or never bleach, probably is black, but don't you wish she were white ? To at least keep your self hate mind in control. It seem watching the whites lady on tv is the max you can reach. Self hate black man.