₦airaland Forum

MasterTeeUSA:
NLC and TUC is acting like one person in the household work...

If the Govt is proposing N54,000...that is N108,000 per month and N1.296m per year.

Breakdown

Rent/Housing - N400,000 (Max) if you are at the bottom of the scale

School - Public Schools - N100,000 (N10k per month)

Food - N350,000 (N30k per month)

Transportation - N300,000 (N30k per month) - minus leave

Electricity - N60,000 (N5k per month)

Data - N48,000 (N2k per month per person)

Others - N38,000 (N3k Per month)....You can save more if you choose lower RENT (Room and Parlor is enough to Start a Family - ONE Bedroom FLAT)

Keep in mind...this is for 2 people at the LOWEST part of the SCALE with a child. Most people should not marry unless they have upped their level at their places of work and this couple should also have something on the side to do that is bringing in money...and if you plan to have another child, space them ...4-5yrs, income would have increased and so on.

What of health ,clothes and other social engagements.

30k is presently not enough for a single person to have a balanced diet in Nigeria every month.

Cmanforall:
Your government can pay 1million as minimum wage, I don't care.

Watch how things will become very expensive. Mark this post!

What happened in Zimbabwe will soon be a child's play

Your fears are unfounded and you're misinforming the public.

The root cause of what happened in Zimbabwe was economic sanctions imposed on the Robert Mugabe led government by western nations, and not just because they increased minimum wage too much. Please get your facts right.

Minimum wage can only lead to hyperinflation when more than 90 percent of a country's population is going to receive it. In Nigeria, where things aren't normal, it's only less than 5 percent that benefits from minimum wage once it's reviewed upwards. A lot of employers, especially those in the private sector, are exempted from paying it. If you don't have 25 employees and more in your payroll as private a employer of labour in Nigeria , you don't pay. That's what the law says. Those who aren't exempted under the law in Nigeria usually lie about their staff strength to avoid complying..

In addition ,this is not the first time minimum wage is going to be reviewed upwards in this country. Evidences from the past shows only marginal increase in some essential commodities was what we got. Transporters won't increase their fares due to increase in minimum wage .They only do so when the cost of fuel goes up. Not every landlord will increase their house rent .

And at the moment, businesses are desperately looking towards and increase in minimum wage to stimulate economic activities once again. Workers purchasing powers has been reduced drastically and people are not buying as before.

So ,in the present circumstances they dare not increase prices unnecessarily after an increase in minimum wage . It will backfire and they know it as it may lead to further boycott of their goods and services . Most people have either found an alternative or done away with certain products, indomie and bread for instance.

So ,if you consider all I just explained, you will understand why it's very wrong for you and your likes to continue to sound the alarm bell of hyperinflation that will never happen.

And again,, the value of 300k for instance, is not what it used to be. You're blinded by figures and cannot see the actual value of that which you say is too much. It's not too much when you consider the exchange rate of naira to dollars.

Finally, minimum wage is law and it' must translate to a living wage for an average worker in Nigeria to afford the basic necessities of life for himself and his family members. Anything less than minimum wage is slave salary.. And because slavery has been abolished long ago is the reason most governments in the world have enabled laws to ensure their citizens are paid a living wage so they're not enslaved in their own country.

mokwechineme:
You are very ignorant. The law says - any firm, organization that has 10 employees and above

Don't mind that person. They like to comment on things they're not too well informed on.

Angelfrost:
Good points, but let's face facts... Can this nation truly survive the fallout of paying a minimum wage of over 300k in this unproductive and corrupt economy?!!

The way prices of commodities will hit the roof due to more money chasing fewer goods will sink the nation into oblivion.


Labor needs to sit down with seasoned economists (they ought to have some in their rank and file), and find a way to make workers' lives better without plunging the nation into a calamitous HYPERINFLATION!


You don't just toss lots of money into people's hands without a buoyant economy to cushion their spending.

For me... Both sides of this debacle should come clean and be reasonable.

FG needs to seriously open up about the nation's finances... They have to show that they are cutting back on their excesses too.

Paying 250k to civil servants and just a few in the private sector wont cause the prices of goods and services to hit the roof top. This is not the first time the country is reviewing minimum wage. If it didn't cause prices to hit roof top in the past why should it now?

It's only when about 80 percent or more of the population receives that amount being proposed ,you can expect inflation. The people receiving minimum wage in the both the public and private sector in Nigeria is less than 5 percent of the population in Nigeria. This is what you need to consider before considering any talk of too much money entering the system after wages are reviewed upwards.

We're already experiencing inflation which has drastically reduced the purchasing power of most people. If minimum wage is not reviewed to create balance in the system,the Nigerian economy may finally crumble . Manufacturers are already complaining of recording very low sales and the reason is because there's not enough money in the hands of people to buy them.

Another thing is that the current value of the naira is not like before. So any increase in wages should take into consideration the current exchange rate of the naira to the dollar.

When Buhari approved 30k minimum 5 years ago,it was equivalent to $83 . Now, 100k or less which some persons are suggesting as reasonable increase ,currently exchange for about $66 .

So based on this, what do you think should be a reasonable upward review of minimum wage?

phemmie06:
Instead of these people to fight for good standard of living they are fighting for rise in wages that APC induce inflation will deflate for them

How eise do you fight for a good standard of living without demanding for a living wage to make it happen?

oluwaseyi0:
The money they are asking is not realistic
It makes labour union look like joker

What in your opinion will be realistic?

Iolo:
Ok. You seem to assume I’m against a wage increase. My comment never mentioned that. The FG must work with all stakeholders to increase the min wage. The argument is how much is reasonable…48k is not the answer and I agree with your sentiments there.

First off, your assertion that min wage impacts only civil servants is wrong. The min wage is a national law impacting every government and business and will become legally binding on everyone. This includes the cleaners and entry level workers at private companies (whichever of them is still paying the min wage).

My comment suggested a novel structure that makes everyone happy. I will summarise it again.

- FG sets a floor rate that binds to everyone (this will become the national min wage). For example 100k.
- FG sets a higher min wage for federal civil servants. For example 200k.
- State governments can set whatever min wage they want to set provided it is above the min wage.

The reason for this is the FG may be able to afford to pay civil servants more but most states can’t. Also, many small businesses will either lay off staff or go out of business if they become forced to pay an unreasonable min wage.

Finally, my thoughts around wage compression are a simple fact. Right now the disparity between the haves and have nots in Nigeria is massive.

Entry level is 30k and some professionals earn 5m monthly. You don’t find this in developed countries (excluding CEO / stock based compensation). My other suggestion is for the FG and states to solve for this by making the wage increment disproportionate such that lower income earners get higher increases than the senior folks. That also means less overall cost and increases the likelihood of it being sustainable.

.1. The reason I focused on civil servants alone is because they're the ones in this country that truly benefits once minimum wage is reviewed upward. Minimum wage in Nigeria is really not for everyone as you think though it's supposed to be so.

Majority of business owners in the private sector in Nigeria are exempted from paying. Those not exempted are reluctant to pay it with no one in government doing anything to force them to pay.

.1. FYI, the requirement for paying minimum wage in the private sector is 25 workers and above. That's what the minimum wage act which was passed into law in March,2019 stipulates.

But unfortunately, in Nigeria ,majority of the privately owned businesses which constitute the highest employers of labour are either operating as small or medium scale enterprises with a payroll of less than 25 workers which exempts them from paying minimum wage. Private businesses that aren't exempted usually lie about their staff strength to avoid paying minimum wage . This is Nigeria where most people derive pleasure from cheating others


2. Your recommendation for a different minimum wage for federal government workers and state workers is making sense to you because you're not informed at all of what the minimum wage act says ,and also why it was enacted in the first place after the one preceeding it was repealed. Please Google it and read so you can come up with something more reasonable.

However , from your comments I can see you're a well meaning individual who want the best for those around you ,but unknowingly , what you have suggested here concerning minimum wage is very wicked, and illegal under the law.. And I will tell you why I say so.

Section 3 of the current minimum act has voided your suggestion already that Federal government workers should be paid minimum wage of 200k while those at the state level should have theirs pegged at 100k with state government allowed to negotiate with local labour leaders on what they can afford to pay afterwards. If you mention 100k ,please break it down to show how it translates to a living wage. Don't just suggest something like the average Nigerian business owners who are notorious for paying slave salaries to their workers and don't care if it enables them take care of their basic needs .

The minimum wage act has criminalized any attempt for any employer of labour in Nigeria, not exempted , to reach any other agreement with their workers to pay less than what's approved at the federal level. Please read up the minimum act of March ,2019 to know this and make proper adjustment in your recommendations because what you have suggested is illegal . It won't be accepted.


Governors who refused to pay the 30k were commiting a crime and getting away with because no one was bold enough to challenge them. They can afford to pay but don't want to for fear they won't have enough to steal afterwards. Look at the immediate past governor of kogi state who refused to pay but was dipping his hands regularly into government purse to pay the school fees of his wards.

In 2019 when Buhari led federal government approved 30k as minimum wage,a bag of local rice then,was between 18k to 24k if not less than that ,and 30k during that period was equivalent to $83 . . Now, 5 years after when a bag of local rice is almost 100k ,you and some others here on Nairaland think 100k which currently exchange for $66 is realistic and reasonable? .


No it's not . You're actually suggesting workers should be paid less than what they're currently earning .

With a depressed economy plagued by inflation caused by removal of fuel subsidy and floating of the naira which has drastically reduced to the purchasing powers of Nigerian workers, it's very unrealistic and retrogressive to suggest anything less than 250 to 300k .
..
If Tinubu ever falls for the trap being set for him by those in the federal government negotiating team comprising of some state governors unwilling to pay minimum wage and signs into law 100k then ,it means he has taken Nigerian workers 5 years back in time if not more than that.

And it will be the highest form of wickedness ever perpetrated on citizens of this ciuntry by a democratically elected goverment which will automatically turn the much vilified Buhari into a saint
He will live to regret it as the opposition will use it against him that because he's clueless about the true value of the naira
he signed into law a new minimum wage which is less in value than the one signed by Buhari. But I'm sure he won't fall for the trap. The man is too smart.

Concerning wage compression which you also suggested, forget it. You're blinded by figures that's why you don't know that 100k of today is not the same value with 100k of 5 years ago. 30k minimum in 2019 was $83. A 100 k minimum wage( your recommendation) will be $66 going by the current exchange rate. Is that an improvement?

Top civil servants shouldn't be used as sacrificial lamb to bridge the gap between
the rich and poor. They have more responsibilities and also need to take care of themselves and the needs of their immediate family members .They deserve an improved salary package considering the sacrifices they've made serving the country for so long. They're not responsible for the current economic climate and shouldn't be made to suffer for what they're not responsible for.


This already getting too long. So I will end it here for now.

Iolo:
Here’s why it will cause hyper inflation. In Nigeria, minimum wage negotiations are never only about the min wage alone, they are also fighting for everyone along the chain.

When we went from 9k to 18k, salaries of mid level and senior civil servants also doubled. Same happened when we went to 30k. So if you 20x someone’s salary from 30k to 615k historically that means people earning more currently also have to be bumped up.

That is the irrationality of labor negotiations that didn’t start today. We realistically need to do two things as a country.

1. Set a national min wage to reduce poverty. FG then sets its own at a slightly higher sum and each state does same based on capacity to pay.
2. Compress the wage disparity between the lowest and highest earners to reduce inflation. That way lower earners get the highest wage increase (labor will definitely fight this) and people earning millions maybe don’t get any increase.


The FG knows the implications of having an unrealistic min wage. People will just float the law.

What's an unrealistic minimum wage?

Is this the first time we are having minimum wage reviewed in this country?

Why did it not lead to hyperinflation in the past?

How can minimum wage upgrade for civil servants who constitute less than 5% of the entire population in the country lead to hyperinflation ?

Or do you imagine that once minimum is reviewed upward then every single person in the country will start earning it, whether they're employed or not?

Do you know more than the economic experts both in the federal government negotiating them and in the IMF who aren't mentioning anything about hyperinflation during the ongoing negotiations.

Please answer every one of these questions in your reply.

FYI ,the 615k proposal by labour is because of what the minimum wage act says; that workers in the country should have their salaries reviewed every 4 years so they can earn a living wage. Minimum wage is a law which the federal government cannot go against. Please know this and stop resisting miimum wage review for civil servants.

Those in government who know the truth aren't listening to you and your likes.

Besides I don't think you know the criteria used in calculating a living wage if not you would have mentioned already what's realistic for government to pay.

48 k being proposed by the federal government is not a living wage . Thank you

Honchoslim16:
A simple question

Why didn't the Juju and Deities kill the people (whites) who came to steal them?

How come the gods become powerless at the sight of Europeans? 😁

Can someone just explain... We need to know how this juju works, or juju and the gods dey shy?

What's juju and what do you know about it to ask these questions?

Doyin2:
It is actually you should be asked whether you went to school or not.

Inflation is a function of money supply and not percentage of people.


You can calculate how many trillions the government will be spending only on wages, even if every worker earns N 615k per month!!

Private sector workers are also entitled to minimum wage.

You're making baseless claims. Back it with evidence please.
Show evidence of how the increase of minimum in the past in this country led to hyperinflation. That's all and stop saying things based on textbook economics theory and principles which doesn't always apply in real life.

Less than 5,% are civil servants in Nigeria. Moreover, not everyone in the private sector is required to pay minimum wage. There's a condition that must be met before they must pay minimum wage.

So your talk that trillions will be used to pay minimum wage once increased is you imagining things that aren't real.

FYI, the 615k is just a proposal.
You don't know enough hence your resistance to a living wage for workers.

1.Civil servants are about 5%

2. Not everyone in the private is mandated to pay minimum wage. You certainly didn't know this if not you wont say all the things you've said something far.

3. There's a minimum wage act which makes it mandatory that minimum wage is reviewed upward every 4 years for workers to earn a living wage. You also don't know this and the calculations involved to arrive at a living wage.

Go and get yourself better informed before you can discuss this with anyone
.

If a living wage would cause hyperinflation as most of you have been singing everywhere , you wouldn't be one to tell us . The federal government would have been saying so during
the ongoing negotiations, and even the world bank and the IMF who like to poke nose unnecessarily into the country's affairs all the time would have advised against.


Maybe you assume you know more than them. But I know you don't know. You're just overreaching yourself with the little you know,like some others here, to ring the alarm bell of hyperinflation when you don't need to.

zionstaar75:
you are a very sensible guy, which state government will pay 615k?do they know the kind of inflation that will cause?bunch of idiots

615k for about 5,% of Nigerian workers in the civil service will cause hyperinflation?

You go skol so?

Doyin2:
You need to receive some sense.


Dealing with corruption and oppression can never be via bogus wage demands,thereby worsening an already worse situation.


Has Labour ever protested against corruption and outrageous salaries of politicians ?
Oh you want government workers to also join in the treasury looting party ?

And so what happens to the private sector population which constitutes over 96% of the total population ?

Minimum wage of any country is a function of productivity and level of revenue.

The minimum wage in Nigeria is among the lowest in the world because our GDP per capita is also among the lowest in the world.

The total monies being stolen by public officers are not enough to pay N615k minimum wage,whereby a fresh graduate would now be earning like N2million per month!

How many Nigerian private sector companies can afford that?

Who tells you that a fresh graduate will earn 2m if miimum wage is increased to 615k?

That's not how it works in the civil service. The difference is not much.

Ask any civil servants you know to get you better informed before coming to Nairaland

Blitzking:
Govt can't pay 650k except you want them to print money and we become like Zimbabwe.. where we have 1 trillion naira note..you go buy bread 30k

Government won't print more money because salaries are no longer paid in cash like before.

These days it's bank transfer and not everyone withdraws cash to pay for goods and services.

Enemyofpeace:
it should not be more than 35k

Because you're jobless

Oracleee:
I'm not a Tinubu supporter, just a concerned citizen. What if you are paid the 615 and that bag of rice becomes 1m? Go and check Zimbabwe for a case study of what hyperinflation can me. Meanwhile, I'm not an obidient neither a Tinubu fan. I'm a supporter of moghalu

Enough of this hyperinflation talk. Zimbabwe's was because of sanction from Western nations and not minimum wage. Don't misinform the public about what you don't know.

Focus on Nigeria and provide evidences to support your claim. This is going to be the third time for miimum wage increase in Nigeria after the minimum wage act was signed into law .

Why was there no hyperinflation when Buhari signed 30k?

It seems most of you assume that once minimum wage is reviewed upwards then every single Nigeria, (employed and unemployed), will automatically have much money in their pocket to cause hyperinflation.

The number of civil servants in each state in Nigeria is not up to 5% of the population.

So , please stop hallucinating about something you don't understand and face the reality that wages must be increased to meet up with current realities in the country .

There's a minimum wage act which mandates it must be increased every 4 years so workers
go home with a living wage. The resistance of you and your likes cannot stop it.

You don't know more than the government who wants to increase it. If it would cause hyperinflation, they should know since they have economic experts to advise them.

You and your likes don't have what it takes to advise the government on what to do. Your textbook economics knowledge is not enough.

Even the world bank and IMF have not gone against it because they know it's needed at this time.

helinues:
Gosh, why do we have unserious Labour union in Nigeria nitori olorun.

You guys are disgusting with this unrealistic proposal

If you say the proposal by labour is unrealistic, then tell us how a family of 2 can survive on 48k in a month in the present day Nigerian ?

MEEVEET:
I hope people know that paying your private workers below the minimum wage is a crime

Those shouting minimum wage minimum wage of 500k

Hope u can pay gateman 500k , cleaner 500k , house help 500k

Hope u know the meaning

A miimum of 50 workers and above is what's required for those in the private sector to pay minimum wage.Thats what the minimum wage act says.. So it's not for everyone.

In addition, the 500 k is just a proposal by labour to get a better deal from government . They're not insisting on that and that's why they're negotiating.

PARADIZEPRIEST:
If you have minimum wage of 600k so how much will the head of civil service take as monthly salary.I think this madness should be narrowed to sanity,ask what is sane and insist on govt providing mass transit transport and discount markrt for all Nigerians and the problem is over.

And you think 48k being offered by the federal government is very sane?

Please try to understand that labour is not insisting on 600k. It's just a strategy to get a better deal from the government.

During the last minimum wage negotiations, labour proposed 150 to 200 k, but at the end of the day, Buhari sighed 30k and it' was
accepted.

48k is slave salary and Nigerian workers are not slaves. Anyone supporting the government on this is very self centered and selfish.

Kobojunkie:
1. Like I said, I hadn't examined them all but I was sure and made clear that the statements from John He posted were not all metaphorical. Simple!

2. Huh? Jesus Christ was making a comparison between himself and stable food? Are you for real? Never mind...

1. You haven't been able to explain how they're not metaphors. In fact your explanations has confirmed they're metaphors. Everything single statements the op quoted is metaphor




2. Yes I'm for real. It's you who have a problem of not knowing what a metaphor is.

Jesus made the comparison to drive home a point. He never asked his listeners to take him as literal bread to be eaten with sardine or whatever.

author=Kobojunkie post=129968050]

▶ To the " I am the bread of Life," statement, let's examine what Jesus Christ is recorded to have said in the passages below.

Ok
....

Jesus Christ broke literal bread and said, “Take this bread and eat it. It is my body.” He equally poured out literal wine and said, "This wine is my blood, which will be poured out to forgive the sins of many and begin the new agreement from God to his people." The same Jesus Christ is recorded to have said that those who eat His body(bread) and drink His blood(wine) will receive His Eternal Life — the life of a man is in His blood. Hence, the bread of Life is essentially the literal bread you eat that Jesus Christ is His body. :- :- : Does this ring as some metaphorical speak to you?

The answer to the bolded, is a resounding yes,

He was using figurative language all through.

Kobojunkie:
OP's claim is that the all of the "I am" statements in John are metaphorical, and I said they aren't all metaphorical. I haven't examined all of them myself but I have at least shown why way of the one that OP's claim is incorrect. :

The Op ,from what I read, only highlighted the "I am" statements that are metaphors. He never said all of them is metaphor. You're the one insisting all of them are literal statements when it's obvious they're not.

To the " I am the bread of Life," statement, examine what Jesus Christ is recorded to have said in the passages below.
....
Jesus Christ broke literal bread and said, “Take this bread and eat it. It is my body.” He equally poured out literal wine and said, "This wine is my blood, which will be poured out to forgive the sins of many and begin the new agreement from God to his people." The same Jesus Christ is recorded to have said that those who eat His body(bread) and drink His blood(wine) will receive His Eternal Life — the life of a man is in His blood. Does this ring as some metaphorical speak to you?

. What's described in the above clearly shows Jesus was making a comparison between himself and something not human,( bread), to drive home a point So it was clear he was expressing himself figuratively and not literally as you think.

Or you don't know what a metaphor is?

A metaphor is a direct comparison between two unlike objects in order to bring out the similarities which exist between them.

In the bread metaphor, Jesus was making a comparison between himself a common food which most people can't do without. I hope by this, you can now see the point of the comparison .

Kobojunkie:


The Israelites believe their God bestows on the righteous among them literal immortality(Life), the ability to live forever. They equally believe that their God will literally resurrect the righteous who are dead — sleeping in the grave — from the dead. When Jesus Christ said, "I am the resurrection and the Life, " Jesus Christ literally meant that He is the very resurrection that they are waiting for and He is also the eternal life that the righteous among them receive. When the time of the resurrection arrives, Jesus Christ, the eternal Life of God, is the signal to raise them back to life.

What John said is not of metaphors. Your understanding is what he meant is what is at fault here.

If you say the following statements are not metaphoric ;

" I'm the light of the world" I'm the bread of life and I'm the resurrection and the life",

Please can you explain how Jesus is literally a baked bread?

CaptainJune:
You don't want to learn. Have it your way.

You don't have anything to teach, but lies and twisting the scripture .

If you don't know the difference between NDE and OBE, what can you teach anyone? Nothing.

There are no instances of anyone in the Christian Bible visiting heaven and hell and coming back to warn others of it. You and your friends are using lies and deception to promote Christianity. That's evil.

You better repent before you're sent to that same hell you're discussing here.

NDE transcends Christianity ..It doesn't validates it.

CaptainJune:
You can do nothing against the truth but for the truth.

It wouldn't matter my religious background or upbringing. The truth is the truth is the truth. Even a lot of Christians are living in deception and bound for hell if they don't repent so it is not a matter of your religious background.

It times past, people lived in the darkness of ignorance and God permitted it because He knew the darkness would not last as the light of the truth in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ would shine and the darkness would flee.

But now that the Light has come men have shown themselves to love the darkness more than the Light.

Those who died before the gospel got to them are judged based on their works and conscience. How much more you who the light of the Gospel has been offered and you have rejected it?

Lastly, you said I used the terms NDE and OBE interchangeably. Nothing can be further from the truth. I told you why it is an NDE in the case of the Apostle Paul. Just google it and learn it.

What's the truth you're blabbing about?

So the good news you're asked to preach as a Christian is NDE and OBE?

The message of Christianity is the one of love and not that of fear you and your friends are spreading here . I know, because I was once a Christian.

You don't need to lie and use fear to draw people to Christianity. It's not needed..

And please, apostle Paul didn't not have a NDE experience. Having a close shave with death without the "subjective" experiences associated NDE is not the same thing.

Paul never reported any NDE experiences What he narrated in 2, Corinthians 12, was the vision he said God revealed to him about a man who found himself in the third heaven. And according to him, he wasn't sure if the man went there in his body or not. He wasn't certain. But in your desperation, you have interpreted it to mean what you want it to mean. You're lying. A Christian should not lie to promote Christianity.

If Paul had expressed certainty about how the man got there,then it would mean OBE and not NDE.

The Op is discussing NDE and not OBE. And it's because you don't know the difference, you brought in what is not relevant to the topic to cause confusion.

Stick to the Op please and provide instances of anyone in the Bible that had an NDE.

Who were those people in the Bible that went to heaven and hell and came back to warn others of what awaits them if they don't repent?


That's what you should answer for me if you want to.

CaptainJune:
If I had borrowed definition from google would it have been otherwise if I explained it to you? You have no business with argument.

This is gibberish . What you're saying please.

Define and explain what NDE or OBE is in your own words before bringing Google as support.

That's how to do it.

If you can't do that then you don't know. It's as simple as that.

CaptainJune:
If you don't mind you could google it.

I asked you because I see you don't know it at all. You don't know the difference between NDE and OBE.

Asking me to Google is deflection .

CaptainJune:
There are false NDEs circulating online by the agents of the devil aggressively pushing the notion that death is blissful and everyone who dies will experience peace and joy. Anything that contradicts the Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus is satanic deception. Do you think the devil would fold his hands, do nothing while people come to the truth of the reality of heaven and hell? Be wise. The enemy is always seeking who to devour.

What's false NDE?

Before the coming of Christianity to Africa our people were having NDE. It's nothing new and nothing to do with the gospel or the scripture..

Its a natural phenomenon anyone can experience.

You can't say that NDEs which contradicts the Bible is fake. You're saying so because you're a Christian.

If you were practicing Hinduism, you would have accepted the ones which agrees with its scripture, and rejected as fake the ones which contradicts it.Yes, that's the same thing you would have said.




The Bible doesn't contain any NDE experiences which matches the ones currently being reported everywhere or the ones in the op. So how did you then determine what's fake or genuine.

In fact, no one in the Bible reported an NDE where they went through a tunnel of light, meeting and embracing a light, and then visiting heaven or hell and coming back to report it to warn people of what awaits them after death if they don't repent.Nothing like that in the Bible.

So ,it's a lie to say that St Paul and John had an NDE . They never had it.


You think they had it because you don't know what an NDE is . It's not just having a close shave with death alone. It's much more than death.

In addition,seeing visions of what has happened in the past or what will happen in the future (John in the island of Patmos) while still in the body is not NDE.

And FYI, NDE is a kind of OBE. Using the two terms to mean the same thing exposes your ignorance of not knowing the difference..

CaptainJune:
Lies! The Apostle Paul had a near death experience (NDE) he talked about in the book of 2nd Corinthians 12. This was after he was taken out of the city and stoned. He was left for dead. The Apostle John's experience was an OBE (Out of Body Experience). Everything he saw or did was done by his spirit while his body was left on earth. Stop spreading lies to support your ignorance of the Scriptures.

What's a near death experience,NDE?

What's also an out of body experience,OBE?

Courz:
Since you don't believe it is a Christian belief but I believe it to be so due to personal thorough research, what is the issue? Why are you bitter?

Bitter? Hehehe.

We are interacting. Not so?

You created a thread like others here about something you think you know and I responded to it with what I know. where's the bitterness in that?

So, it means when you jump into threads created by others to discuss and disagree with what you find there you are doing so because you're very bitter?

Well, I won't be surprised that's what you do and think everyone is like you. I'm not you.so don't project yourself.

If anyone is bitter between the two of us right now,it's you who simply can't tolerate contrary viewpoints and want me to leave the thread.

Modified. Talking of personal research, you're free to do that, but just know that what you arrived at shouldn't be announced to the world as truth, especially when others know it better than you.
I don't claim to know it all,but from what you have said so far, you don't know it all.

You're just looking for what supports your beliefs. And what you have found so far is unfortunately being misinterpreted by you.

Every religion can use NDE to validate their beliefs. You're not the only one capable of doing that.

Courz:
So since you don't believe in NDEs, why were you telling me to post NDEs that have nothing to do with Heaven and Hell? Why mention NDEs from Africans as well?

I haven't said anything about me believing or not believing NDE. I said it's not Christian belief. If you believe in it as a Christian, then you're not one. That's what I said.

I'm sure you never took the time to read what I already explained about NDE ,if not you wont be making this comment as well as the other the ones before now.

Courz:
This is certainly not my personal blog. You have stated your opinion, did you not? When you see I don't buy it, you end the discussion because we are coming from completely different perspectives and Beliefs. You can't force it down my throat. You kept replying me when I'm not interested in what you have to say seeing that you are not a Christian. Of what use is a discussion with you when you don't see NDEs from a Christian angle? These NDEs are for Christians. You don't ever see me in threads meant for Atheists , battling with them and arguing fruitless arguments.

But you were responding at the beginning. Next time ignore those whom you don't want to engage.

Now that you said this, I be will watching out for when anyone ask you to ignore them and you don't.

You're always on the neck of JWs, I'm not one of them, but the same you is not happy to experience the same thing

You're joking.

Take this to your personal blog if you don't know how to handle dissenting views to what you want to believe

Courz:
triple choice, I will repeat myself. I am a Christian first and foremost. I don't care what Judaism, what New Age, what Hindu and other religions teach about NDE. Almighty God and Jesus are my focus. I will only post genuine NDEs that talk about God and Jesus. Full stop.

No. You don't know what's a genuine NDE. You're trying to misinform the public about what you don't know. That's all.

NDE is not Christian doctrine. It's not in the Bible and so you can't claim you're a Christian and still preach it.
I know, because I was once a Christian like you.

The Bible teaches after death then judgement. Nothing like coming back to warn people. There's no one in the Bible that came back to warn anyone of heaven or hell after visiting it or meeting with Jesus.

You're not preaching Christianity but your own doctrine to drive fear into the minds of the gullible.