₦airaland Forum

k2039: It had to be till the end(God's will tilll the end)
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.Matthew 24:13

i just finish explaining the meaning of grace in perfect tense, im surprised to see this. Mary was in a state of grace that was once and for all and didnt need to be repeated and you are asking if she stood firm till the end. Do you know how u sound?

k2039: Sound's like you taking stuffs personal

to me you are the persom who made everything personal, if you wish to discuss, do so with dignity not by writting 'bladerdash' after someones post.
If you dont wish to make an honest discussion leave the thread

k2039: Balderdash!

all thru my life, i have hated this attitude. You didnt challenge any of her points u just wrote 'balderdash'. You u cant make a discussion dont post something like this.

ijawkid: But u celebrate Jesus's birth on 25th december...why don't u celebrate it on a diff day and month other than december 25th??

Why??

If the day u celebrate it don't matter ,why must it be on december....??why must it be on a pagan date??whyyyyyyyyyy??

i would tell you how the cc arrived at 25 of dec. The most immovable feast in d cc is easter, there exist tradition that clearly states that christ died the day he was concieved, d death of christ is actually abt march 25, 9 months from that date we celebrate xmas. It is rather unfortunate that that was d day d pagan celebrated their god of sun, when paganism had finaly been conquered the church made sure that the new convert knew that their sun feast and d xmas was different. It seem i have lost the linj that gives a clear explanation.

Why shuld I celebrate the birth of Jesus christ??did Jesus himself celebrate it??

so you dont know that jew celebrated their birth? Or is it that jehova witnes cant appreciate the birth of christ?

Why shuld I celebrate paganism??

i didnt say any body shuld celebrate paganism i said u shuld celebrate d birth of christ. Besides why are u so superstitious? because pagans had a celebration on 25 does that mean that the 25 will b a bad day or what? Infact the fact dat pagans celebrated their feast that day is al d more reason why xtian shuld claim that day because those stupid gods dont exist, instead of d stupid pagan celebration, it is time to appreciate christ.

U expect me to be running around with xmas trees(paganism) and fantasizing about santa claus(also pagan inclined)??...
Take time o....lol

hahah! Now that is funny, because in my house wen i was younger there was no christmas trees, i didnt see santa in nigeria we have 'father xmas' wu give gifts. And it is fun. Mayb u shuld take ur children to one dis xmas and teach them abt givin, teach them abt d gift God gave us wen he gave us his son to die 4 us.
Peace

Wow! I love this even though i may not totally agree

k2039: Rev. 5:8-14
...Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. Verse 11 speaks of those around the throne of God and verse 12 says that they were saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." Verse 13 mentions every created thing in heaven and earth saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth.Many Christians deny that this is possible, but it seems to be clearly taught here.

true

Regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are, either.

what a joke! They are the prayers of the xtians on earth, brought before God by those in heaven, what is mysterous there?

Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.

that simply means the saints in heaven did the singing

In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.
...[b]Just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints.

ha! Egbami o!, so you know that the saints in heaven can interceed and pray with us but you think it is wrong to ask them to do so, are you jokin? Even d psalmist asks d angel to join him in offering God a prayer of praise and you are saying it is wrong 4 xtians to do same.

If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them.

very correct

Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience.

nobody is saying the saints have omniscience or anything, i simply stated a fact that God has allow them to offer the prayer of those on earth (intercession) and said that as members of one body of christ we can truly ask them to pray for us or/and ask them to join us in prayers.

Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to receive prayers, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise.
[/b]

no no no, it says that they offer our prayer to God, did u miss that or delibrately delete it?

seriallink: On point my broda.

Noah, Job, Abraham, Moses & others were righteous men; they loved Yaweh with all their hearts but that doesn't mean they were sinless! We all inherited sin from the first man (Adam).

can you show me where d bible discribes noah, job moses etc as possesing a complete grace?

k2039: I still maintain that if there was a sinless person(Mar Inclusive) on earth Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross.
John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

nah! Instead one of the reasons christ died on the cross was to perform the sacrifice that would confirm the grace given to mary.

I guess if Mary had been around she probably must have cast the first stone.lol (but how am I sure she wasnt even around).

funny, the gospel writters didnt mention mary among the crowd

That they didnt associate associate sin with her,didnt mean that she was sinless.(and dont ask me for the sin she committed lol)

it seem u didnt undastand me, i meant that the stated that mary was sinless, augustinee.t.c. Surprising even luther said d same thing

Is it wrong for her to have called Jesus savior,afterall it was explicitly prophesied that Jesus was going to save his people from his sin.She knew the savior was around,so calling him a savior before she got saved shouldn't be a issue.

hahaha! Funny, she already recieved grace that was above that of d mosiac dispensation, with that i can truly say that when she called God her saviour God has already saved her.

REQUIREMENT TO GET SAVE

ST. PAUL's
Romans 10:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that[b] God raised him from the dead, [/b]you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

POPE SAINT PETER 1ST
Acts 2:36-40 (New International Version)
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

he said the promise is also 4 their children, did you notice, he said repent and b baptised, children most times dont need to repent

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

ACCORDING TO POPE PETER AND SAINT PAUL a,THE FOLLOWING HAD TO BE FULFILLED TO BE SAVE,SO SHE GOT SAVE ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS PETER AND THAT WAS AFTER THE DEATH OF JESUS(because believing Jesus died is also a requirement)

ha! I like u actually i would i bring that whole stuff and explain it all, but it would be too long, i simply wish to tell you that the immaculate conception has a sound explanation for al dat stuff. Are you aware that catholic baptise infants who cant even undestand and consider dem saved, if in catholic theology infants wu cant undastand can b considerd saved then God could save mary in d womb.
I thought you didnt believe peter and paul were saints, i even thought u didnt believe peter was bishop of rome.

k2039: It is PLENITUDE plentitude of Grace(just realized the mistake).

thanks for d correction

[b]Hail [/b]The angel greeted Mary with a common Aramaic word for "hello" or possibly `rejoice."

yeah the word is "chaire" it means rejoice

highly favored Gabriel next calls Mary "favored one" (kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charitoo). Charitoo, "to bestow grace/favor" is the verb form of the noun charis, "grace, favor." The passive form ensures that Gabriel is addressing Mary as the recipient of God's grace or favor, rather than the giver of it.

you only explained the meaning of the passive tense you didnt explain the meaning of the perfect tense, the participle means that mary already had grace. The perfect tense means that "the action having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated". http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5772 do you any any human being apart from christ who recieved grace in the perfect tense? Anyone who posses grace that was complete?

The Latin Vulgate translation of this word "full of grace" (gratia plena) is unfortunate and inaccurate as it has led to exaggerated claims for Mary: that because she was full of grace, she now is able to dispense grace to sinners. There is no support in all of Scripture for such a claim.

this is nonesense, jerome translated gracias plena because he saw grace in the perfect tense so he translated 'ful of grace' the exact translatiom was suppose to b 'complete in grace'. That passage didnt say and catholic never implied that it meant that mary is a distributor of grace, that passage means that before christ was born mary had already recieved a full dose of none depletable grace a once and for all grace.

Lord is with you blessed are you among women. esteeming it to be the highest honor among mothers to be the mother of the Messiah

YES I AGREE THAT BEFORE THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE SHE RECEIVED PLENITUDE OF GRACE COMPARED TO THOSE BEFORE HER.

the point im now making is that she also recieve a completed grace unlike those after her who must go daily to the throne of grace.

Looking at John1:16;And of his fullness have all we received, and grace upon grace.([b]And of his fullness - Of the plenitude of his grace and mercy)[/b]
The meaning is,simply that we have received through him "abundance" of grace or favor.
WE ARE UNDER AS MUCH GRACE AS THE MOTHER OF JESUS,SHE WASNT JUST THE ONLY ONE WHO RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE,WE ALSO DID RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE

tell me why the bible never uses, the perfect tense of grace while refering to us xtians, we must renew ourselves again and again, paul tells his fellow xtians be renewed, mary had instead a once and for all grace, it didnt need to be repeated. Beautiful! Do you have an explanation for that?

[quote author=Bélla3]eternal life is different from living forever. In eternal life, you are a spirit not wit a physical body. Now, if mary can here me, that means my grand mother (of blessed memory) can also hear me. Why dont i pray to her?[/quote]you most certainly can, catholic dont only ask for mary's intercession. Personally i normally ask all the angels and saints to join me in prayer espcially wen im praise God. Even the psalmist does the same thing

By praying to mary, you are implying that she is omnipresent. Because so many people pray to her at once. And this my brother is a very big sin.

hahaha, Jesus said that the angels jubilate in heaven wen a sinner repents, are they ominipresent? So if the angels know each sinner that repents on earth, wow i see no reason why d saints wont b aware. Besides paul said that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witness see heb11 and 12

k2039: Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”(Mary mother of Jesus inclusive).

you forgot to add "yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

He was definitely refering to the old testament, Because Jesus also was born of woman and yet we both agree He is the greatest of all.

that is the stuff i have been telling u, catholics and the early xtians see mary as part of the new testament.

So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?
Because she is the mother of Jesus

I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all

i hear that in heaven, everybody is not rewarded equally, my bible say "each man accding to his works".
Peace

k2039: Thank's,this are just stuff's that are obvious in the scriptures.
The main problem I have with catholic's is the Papal infallibility(petrine supremacy of the pope, and his authority to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church).

UNTIL WHEN THE POPE INFALLIBILITY IS REVOKED THEIR IS GOING TO BE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE RC DOCTRINE,BECAUSE WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT EVEN IF THE POPE IS WRONG,YOU CANT AGREE THAT HE IS WRONG(HE IS INFALLIBLE)
BUT I CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY THAT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY IS HOAX AND BALDERDASH


AM SORRY CATHOLIC FOLK'S,BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH

it seem again that you are passing judgement, we were talking abt the celebration of d birth of mary, d discussion has turned to that on immaculate conception and sinlessnes, you want to add papal infalliability to it. That will divert the thread, 3 topics in one thread. Ha! Na wa for u.

k2039: Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law.

very correct, this is why i wrote earlier that God made an exception by granting mary a plenitude of grace

In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’sgrace.

i agree, the point catholics have been making is that mary was granted that grace

If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!
The simple truth is just that if she achieved that,then we can as well conclude that Jesus wasted a lot of blood on the cross.If one person could achieve righteousness under the law then anybody should be able to,and their wont be a need for Jesus dying on the cross.

this problem only exist in the mind of a protestant becos they misunderstood catholic teaching. We didnt say she obtained salvation thru d law, we say God prepared her from the bgining thru grace. Her salvation was a total gift that is why she could truly say 'my spirit rejoice in God my saviour'

But looking at Luke1:47
“My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.”NO SINLESS PERSON NEEDS A SAVIOR.

have you considered that she may have beem saved FROM commiting sin?

Doubtless she was one of the noblest ladies ever to grace this planet; nevertheless, she was not without sin

I REST MY CASE

it seems you have passed judgement? Is there stil a reason to continue d discussion?

k2039: When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded:
"... a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary.

what a comment? Where is the word "above" in the scripture passage you quoted? Have you started to make your own bible?

Perhaps the Lord inserted these verses for those today who choose to ignore the Word of God so they can follow church traditions.

my bible teaches my to hold fast to tradition. Can you see the verse in your bible?

k2039: I agree with you,it's just so obvious

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:50
Paraphrasing that verse,mum you incubating me in your womb is not enough reason to call me your son,you have to do my father's will to be considered my mother

what are you contending? Did mary not do the will of the father? Answer me yes or no.

plappville: So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

aha!, apart from the fact that your tune sounds insultive, the passage you quoted didnt say we shouldnt celebrate he birth, im even surprise you quoted it. We also celebrate the death of john d baptist, peter, paul, james, john, philip, jame, jude...justin, etc. Do you also have a problem with that or you are only concern about mary?
Peace

plappville: So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

aha!, apart from the fact that your tune sounds insultive, the passage you quoted didnt say we shouldnt celebrate he birth, im even surprise you quoted it. We also celebrate the death of john d baptist, peter, paul, james, john, philip, jame, jude...justin, etc. Do you also have a problem with that or you are only concern about mary?
Peace

k2039: Gen8:9 Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord
Exodus33:13 Moses also found grace in God's sight
Judges6:17 Gideon found grace in God's sight also
My point all this people found grace before the arrival of Jesus.So Mary being granted grace before Christ's arrival aint really a big deal.

yeah, all those people found grace(favor) b4 God. But none of the above was said to posses or to have recieve that plentitude of grace, that stuff on bgan in n new dispensation. Infact the word used to describe mary's grace 'kecharitomene' only appears once in the bible.

k2039: Have a wonderful time in church,seriously am also enjoying the conversation(I guess because we both implementing one of the seven habit's of highly effective leader.We both understand each other "seek first to understand,before you are understood)

do you know that the part you wrote in quotation marks is a prayer for catholics. It the prayer of st francis 'lord make me an instrument of your peace where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is doubt faith, where the is darknes light, where despair hope, where there is injury pardon, o divine master grant that i may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love, for it is in giving that we recieve, in pardoning that we are pardoned and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen'. You know it as one of the seven habit of an effective leader, i know it as a prayer.
Peace

k2039: Do you mind referring me to the verse

apart from the fact that she is decleared plentiful in grace, i bring forward luke1:47 "my spirit rejoice in God my saviour" wow! Under the law there was no salvation, so how manage mary is talking about he saviour? Take for instance that i fell into a pit, if nobody has pull me up then i cant call anybody my saviour, if someone pull me up i would say 'thank you u for saving me'. Do you understand? I cant call God my saviour unless he had saved me, the very fact that mary call God her saviour before the birth of christ is a proof that she was saved even before she gave birth, that goes on to explain why the angel declears that she already possesed a plentitude of grace. Do you get me?
Peace

k2039: Ofcourse that's not in the bible,I deduced that from Isa64:6(lol)

i remember i explained the use of generalisation in the bible.

I seriously know you just trying to pull my leg there.Can you just tell me one sinless person aside from Jesus(come up with a name)

many of the early xtians even luther, were very clear, they didnt associate mary with sin.

You know she died in the dispensation of Grace,so she definitely had to meet the requirement for that dispensation to be declared righteous.Besides she believed im Jesus as a saviour,that's enough for her to be save (Luke 1:47. Jesus is the precious Savior! Luke 2:11, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”)
Besides she was in the upper room.
Act 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

it is very easy for me to agree to this, the question is 'when was she saved?'

k2039: What is Grace?
Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor.
She possesing a plentiful of Grace is the reason why she was the most qualified for the incubation of Christ.
After all you and I also posses plentiful grace(Heb4:16,2Pet3:17-18)

yeah, im quite happy you see that, no body in the mosaic dispensation was said to posses a plentitude of grace, they found favour or grace with God, but no one in that dispensation possesed a plentitude of grace.
Mary didnt do anything to merit that plentitude of grace but God gave her that plentitude of grace because she would become the mother of christ. Do we agree on this?
Peace

truthislight: ^^^
lies.

Catholics dont follow the teachings of the apostles as recorded in the NT just as muslim.

This two do the same with beads and others except trinity.

hello jehova witness, do you also realise that jehova witnes and muslim share the same believe? You both believe that man has no soul. Aha!

truthislight: thank you plaeton.

hahaha! You are thanking plaeton for the nonesense he wrote, a fellow protestant proved him wrong

truthislight: is it the same Irenaeus that live 180 AD?

By then the apostles have completed their writings.

Jesus lived and died at 33AD

did all christain writtings that was writting in the time of Jesus regarded as scripture? The new testament wasnt compiled until the 4th century, so yes irenaeus lived before the canon of scripture was compiled.
Make research before you post

truthislight: the catholic church did not kill any church fathers that differs from them!

How true is this statement?

We know better even though you guys wish to come here and tell lies.

hahahaha, go and learn the different between a church father and a heretic. The church didnt kill any church father. Make research and give proof.

truthislight: this is where your lies are expose that you know nothing about the BIBLE.

The book of timothy was not written by timothy but by Apostle paul to help the young man in his work.

All you know is what RCC has taught you.

Stop lying.

do you have problem with understanding? Did he say timothy wrote that book? Read again.

truthislight: ^^^

lies.

They wrote their books.

hahaha! It was the early christains who wrote that d book of matthew was written by matthew, original those books dont have title, among the gospel only wrote that the book was written by him. Show me where matthew, mark or john said they wrote a gospel.

truthislight: but the bible is the words of the apostles.

Why do you want to force other later people opinion on us?

because the bible says, "hold on to tradition" did you see that in your bible?

truthislight: ^^^
you mean the ones that Roman Catholic church did not kill?

That means that their writing agrees with the RCC traditions.

If not they will have been killed and their writing destroyed
that is why most of what we have on the net most agree with the RCC.

oga the rate at which you lie is becoming alarming, you dont even know the difference between a church father and a heretic. Wow your dishonesty is alarming.

truthislight: but you intimidated/kill all of them and destroyed their writing.

How do you expect us to see and have their writings owing to your legacy of killing them?

are you kidding me? Are you even serious? The catholic church didnt kill any church father. What is wrong with you. What type of liar are you turning into?

truthislight: besides, the head of the christian church is christ and not peter.

the early christain all believe that peter was given visible leadership of the church i remember christ said 'i give you the keys of the kingdom' can you tell me what 'keys' mean in the bible?

truthislight: catholic is old no doubt.

But must we rely on the story of the old catholics to know the truth?

it is called tradition, go and read what the bible says about christian tradition.