₦airaland Forum

Enigma: So now, will you still repeat the above?

ofcourse i can, most orthodox i know still consider it offensive to add the word catholic when refering to them. To those i know it imply they are in communion with rome, becos usually the words orthodox and catholic and swapped when a orthodox church enters communion with rome.

Enigma: Na so!

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

im not surprised orthodox, anglicans and lutherians all profess a creed that say "i believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church", some anglicans call themselves anglocatholics. Apart from these guys i have not meet orthodox christians wu allow the word "catholic" to be put betw "orthodox" and "church" because it usually gives the phase a different meaning. It is a good thing they didnt throw away the name.

Also, check out this Orthodox Catholic Church website; for good measure, they even call the Roman Catholic Church ------ schismatic. http://www.orthodoxcatholicchurchnp.com/

that isnt new, before the vatican ii council catholics also called d orthodox schismatic, and the lutherian were called heretic, with ecumenism the name calling ceased it seems the idea of reconciliation hasnt reached this particular orthodox church, it is still the 14th century for them.

Enigma: Na so!

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

im not surprised orthodox, anglicans and lutherians all profess a creed that say "i believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church", some anglicans call themselves anglocatholics. Apart from these guys i have not meet orthodox christians wu allow the word "catholic" to be put betw "orthodox" and "church" because it usually gives the phase a different meaning. It is a good thing they didnt throw away the name.

Also, check out this Orthodox Catholic Church website; for good measure, they even call the Roman Catholic Church ------ schismatic. http://www.orthodoxcatholicchurchnp.com/

that isnt new, before the vatican ii council catholics also called d orthodox schismatic, and the lutherian were called heretic, with ecumenism the name calling ceased it seems the idea of reconciliation hasnt reached this particular orthodox church, it is still the 14th century for them.

Enigma: I wanted to ignore this post but I think it is necessary to point out a few home truths to you.

same

1. You guys tell too many lies and it is a real shame.

u havent proved anything and u are accusing me of lying, u claimed u were a catholic but the moment infant baptism came up with church father u fled with ur tails between ur legs.

2. Mercifully, the thread is there for all to see and make up their minds. https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

i thank God for that

3. More importantly, you guys are again lying on this thread when you say the other churches recognised the "authority" of Rome at any time before the schism or after. I have pointed out that what they accepted for Rome was only a primacy of honour or love. Nothing more!

u claim u were right without proof, show me one church father that disagreed with the primacy, give me a quote. The thread above is full of quote from church fathers, where are d quotes that support ur position?

4. The schism occurred in part precisely because other churches did not recognise the authority of Rome; Rome never had any such "authority"; and Rome's attitude contributed heavily to the break up of the catholic i.e. the universal church.

wow! Authority played a factor, but the bone of contention was the filioque. Make ur research. U are still say rome doesnt have authority, d thread above shows a church father clearly say rome had preeminent authority. Where is ur quote that say the oposite. Provide proof, if u think d early church father donot agree with the primacy of rome, where is ur proof?

5. That the Orthodox and others continue to refuse to recognise the authority of Rome and that Rome has not repented of this serious sin is what is continuing to prevent reconciliation.

are u kidding me, rome is the one extending an arm of reconcilation, the maronite orthodox have come back to full communion with rome they are now maronite catholic same with the copts and many other eastern churches. U should check again and see who is repenting.

Now talking of "Church Fathers" let me give you people a few examples of the church fathers who did not see the primacy of Peter as amounting to the "primacy" of Rome: Augustine, John Chrysostom, Cyprian of Carthage, etc etc etc etc etc.

hahahahahahahahaha, give me a quote, just one each and u fairytale would look like reality.

In fact let me stop there and instead refer you to a couple of pro-Roman Catholic people one of them being a Roman Catholic theologian and historian. Google the info or see this link http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/mt16.html

u want to use the same old tactics u used in the other thread, the other thread u quote bokenkotter, today u are giving me a critics of people wu didnt live in a century close to the church father. If ur talks are true, then give me the quotes

So you people should repent of all your lying and stop spreading falsehood all over the place.

hahaha, u are d person making unproved claims, prove ur claims so we will know wu is speading falsehood.

Enigma: This is not accurate really or at least is not fair.

The Orthodox are even till today still called Orthodox Catholic Church.

Secondly, follwing chkwudi's statement it can also be said that what became the Roman Catholic Church "split from catholicism only during the East-West schism of 1054".

u are certainly mixing stuff up. Orthodox donot refer to themselves as "orthodox catholic church" to put the word "catholic" there would imply that they are in full communion with the roman see.

frosbel: On the contrary , knowing I can be wrong has led me to carry out more study and come to the alarming conclusion that the Trinity and Tithe / indulgences dogmas were and are still false.

BTW LagosShia is an 'ol pal, we are having dinner later this week

a little correction, catholic dont consider tithing as a dogma. The trinity issue i still ask u to reconsider and to stop the auto delete u use to block out the evidence presented to u.

Zikkyy: ... are you saying orthodox churches are not catholic?



I can't say they were ever under catholic, but they were part of one catholic church before the name change. It's either they are still catholic or they are protesting. I think their not wanting to be identified with the word 'catholic' makes them protestant.

nah, they arent protestants and they arent catholics (some of those sees are now catholics, the term used is 'eastern catholic'), they prefer to called themself orthodox.

Zikkyy: Take it easy na. which one you dey?

nothing easy there, go and check that thread, all the protestant ran away without even saying goodbye.

[quote author=Atheist:-D]No they are not. Orthodox and Catholicism were the two main branches of Xtianity. They were never under the Catholics (except for shortly after the 4th crusade). They have distinct differences when compared with the Catholics.[/quote]this isnt true, the today orthodox and catholic church was united before the 11th century and the roman see presided over the whole church, in the right manner of speaking the today orthodox church (eastern sees) were under the today catholic church (the roman see).

Femmymata2: Ofcourse, that could be true. But i don't really care, if jesus is God or the begotten son of God or God the son or not God at all. I wish we had a God or supernatural being who could communicate directly with us and deal with our everyday issues. I've read about many Gods but none is worthy of anything but just to debate,argue,insult about it. They are that useless, they can't speak for themselves except through money demanding, jet-flying,mansiön living,expensive suit wearing, hell threatening, tithe/offering collecting,poor exploiting,dubious,cunning,viscious,desperate men and women of God. These Gods are useless when a mother and infant look onto them when they're about to be cut into pieces and burnt, these Gods with perfect knowledge,almighty power,presence everywhere can't use it to help those kids dieing of hunger,disease,abuse e.t.c These Gods are powerless,useless and only have the thinking, behaviour,imagination of those who created and worship them.

and wu says dieing is an evil that must be stopped and avioded at all cost?

frosbel: When you read the bible with the lenses of scripture it points to only one direction.

If you try reading it with the lenses of tradition it points to about 40,000 denominational creeds

are u kidding me? The protestant church claims to follow scriptures alone they have 40000 denomination in about 500yrs of existence, the last time i check those wu followed the word of God reveal thru scripture and tradition havent reach 100 in 2000yrs. Next time make research before u start spining d above arguement.

Ihedinobi: Geez! Dude, you're boring me. That's what you got? Boohoohoo How disappointing. Checking out your link anyway. Maybe I'll see something to laugh at there.

i just took a look at the link, the link is teaching the gospel of those wu were driven away from the early church. Wow! I thought it would b a good read, unfortunately they are giving me the ranting of those the early church considered heretics and excommunicated. Frosbel try harder.

frosbel: And it was your Pagan Emperor Constantine who endorsed the doctrine of the Trinity on behalf of the so called church , you should be proud of yourself.

The only church I know is the body of Christ , you can indulge yourself with the harlot church because they tickle your toes , but that's your prerogative.

actually constantine had no vioce in the council of nicea, silience was self and collectively imposed upon him because he wasnt a priest nor a bishop. Constantine was voiceless in that council.

frosbel: The Pagan origins of an apostate church mean zilch to me , of course I have read the history about that pagan emperor and his bishops who reduced Christianity to a set of creeds and traditions, who diminished the authority of the bible and elevated man to positions of Infallibility.

The catholic church is where you belong.

As for your schooling , I apologise , no hurt intended

hahaha, when u examine everything with bias im not surprised that everything looks evil to you.

frosbel: If the fullness of the Deity dwells in Christ , how then can he be God seeing that the fullness of God had to dwell in him or how do you reconcile it to the following statement

Ephesian 3:19
"...... and to know this love that surpasses knowledge -- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God."

Based on the underlined can we also claim to be God just because we are filled with the fullness of God through his Spirit ?

wow! Wow! Wow! Forsbel has caught me in his web, hahaha, that isnt posible, just kidding. Jesus didnt posses the "fullness of God" he possesed "the fullness of the deity". He had "the fullness of the Godhood state", do u see the difference. When christ dwells in my heart and my body is d tempel of the spirit and d fada wu is in his son dwells in me, i truly posses "the fullness of God" but i dont have the "fullness of the state of Godhood" i cant posses that state because im not God. Jesus posses that state, and each moment Jesus dwell in my heart i can truly say "i am filled with a measure of the fullness of God.
Your arguement has no teeth.

ijawkid: Angels are divine if that's what u wanna hear....

Angels are deities too...

U want me to prove it with the scriptures??

If u have noticed the point here is that Jesus isn't Yahweh and that Jesus and Yahweh aren't equal.....

the word deity is no body's name......

Jesus was filled with the holy spirit ,so he could do all he could.....

I'm still on the stance that the holy spirit isn't a person and also a GOD....

U shuld never forget we humans can be filled with Gods nature without........that's d work of the holy spirit,that empowers anything or anybody it falls on....and that was what happened to Jesus......

So let me ask u since u insist Jesus being full with divinity means he is Yahweh or GOD...



Why doesn't Jesus knw when the world would end??

Answer me mr ubenidictus.....

He was bodily GOd....fully God ,fully man...

Why did he forget when d end will come...

That's why I say ur explanation to that verse u.quote about is wrong.......



How can God not know when the end will come,but another person knew??



And I will re-iterate.....

Angels too are divine,they are deities,they are also GODs....

All heavenly beings are Gods,they are divine.....but Yahweh is the almighty of them all....get that into your skull...


We've shown u guys verses that explicitly shows Jesus is eternally subservient to Yahweh and also less than Yahweh...but the pagan trinity dogma has blocked all ur ways of perception and thinking.........

as usual ijawkid dodges and gives me a question, u say d angel are deities, u even say humans are deities, i noticed all thru ur responds u were saying Jesus was full of the divinity that isnt what my bible says, my bible say he possesed the the fullness of the divinity they are different, and my question remains, how can Jesus posses the fullness of the deity? Dodge better next time.

frosbel: I am not a Programmer , must every IT person be one

not necessaryly, most IT people i know are also programmers, it kind of completes the stuff.

But your are right when you say :
"it is like the 'if' character in a flow chart, if the data points to the trinity delete"

u dont need to tell me im right, when u have a preconcieved notion even in a hypothetical arguement that something can never be true, u will find every way to run away from it, even if the truth is staring u in the face it would be hard to recognise it.
I wish u all the best

ijawkid: Frosbel grew in knowledge to understand that the trinity has always being a hoax and that Jesus isn't Yahweh......

Its crystal clear to him...

His mind is not as obstinate as the mind of u guys who choose to hold on to a pagan trinity....

i remember asking u somewhere, how come "the fullness of the deity" dwells in christ wu u call a creature? Or are u going to tell me that angels posses "the fullness of the deity" too and Jesus is ur arch angel?

frosbel: I am a very keen and curious student on religion, hence my knowledge increases on a daily basis as I take in more information, analyse this information and make informed decisions.

This is my training as an IT professional. I receive data , collate it , analyse it and derive certain facts which lead to a specific Truth . Reason has taught me to accept such a Truth.

I do not rely on the whims , notions , excitements and erraticity of fallible men . Any article I post is usually subject to intense scrutiny using ONLY Sola Scriptura

Why this long explanation you may ask.

Because the more knowledge we have , the better positioned we are to make more factual assessments which lead to certain solid truths.

Just because I made a decision based on the stale data I had in February does not mean that on receipt of new data , my perception or understanding will not change.

this is the stuff, a programmer wants to draw a flow chart for everything, everything for him works like a computer, i have nothing against programers, im studying to be one. But the thing i like about a computer is that it must accept and analyse data, i have been reading your posts, u dont accept and analyse data, u work with a preconcieved notion that the other person is wrong, it seem like a computer programed to accept names and decides to alway reject ibo names. You have decided that anything that points toward God as one in 3 distinct person is wrong. You cant analyse because u already have a precondition, it is like the 'if' character in a flow chart, if the data points to the trinity delete, if not analyse.
The fact that u changed ur earlier understanding show that u arent infalliable either, at least u and i can agree that scripture is infalliable. Drop ur preconcieved ideas, remove the if in your flow chart and ask the holyspirit to guide u as you open scripture, see as it says the father is God d father, a father begets, see the son of God wu is also called God, he is the sole begotten and again see that God is one. Analyse and come to a conclusion.

Im surprised as well, there are posts where frosbel say Jesus is God and others he says Jesus isnt God. Are there two frosbel here? 1 hates d catholic church so much that he would disagree with scripture that Jesus is God, the other believes Jesus is God. How does this guy keep both ideas? Well i do hope and pray that he is able to open his heart to the holy spirit. GOD isnt the author of confusion, christ cant be God and isnt God at the same time.
Peace

Kay 17: But it is not necessary and logical possible for God to use an alternate option other than suffering which he is adverse to achieve his end/purpose.

maybe a simple way to do that is to make humans into robots, if he decides to be a human remote control im sure he would use suffering.

ijawkid: :-).....

Jesus was filled with d holy spirit.....isn't it??

u said the holyspirit is a inpersonal force, how can a force be "the fullness of the Godhead"? Answer me, how can anyone wu isnt God posses not just the Godhead but "the fullness"? U are trying to dodge, instead of facing one issue u simply jump to another like u did below.

Ur thoughts on the fÙllness of divinity is what has landed us in this wahala.........

what are ur thoughts on "the fullness of the divinity"? Or are u going to tell me that angels posses the fullness of the divinity too abi? I know that will be ur next idea.

U mis-understand the whole thing and conclude Jesus is God almighty in flesh.....

tell me how someone wu isnt God can have "the fullness of the divinity". He didnt just have a full anointing, full of grace and truth, tell me how manage he has the fullnes of the divinity.

But that thought always back fires....

so says d guy wu hasnt explained how what he calls a 'creature' has the fullness of the divinity.

The trinity is whÀt has caused thÍs whole chaos....

It shuld never have been brought up ........

The dogma is confu§ion itself.....

hahaha, u are just trying to dodge the truth of scripture, welldone, but it didnt work.

frosbel: You and your daughter churches cannot simply accept plain scripture but must mix it with the tradition

i didnt quote tradition, i simply refered u to the language scriptures was written in

of the so called 'early church ' which should be referred to more like the 'apostate early church'

really, tell me something, if the early church was apostate and there was no other church then that means the gates of hell prevailed, it seems u are trying to call christ a liar, u have done it. hope it makes u happy

.

are u trying to be silly or something? Did i quote a church father? What is that u wrote above? The greek bible say christ is deity u guys are interpreting it in english, i talked abt d bible i didnt even mention the early church. Go and research the meaning of "deity" in the greek scriptures.

Pastor Kun: Why don't you give us the full picture?

in the US the government pays tax to the church, in germany, it is a bit different, the civil law gives all registered church the right to tax her members (instead of the government paying tax) the church may enforce the tax by herself or thru the governments tax agency (ofcouse u have to pay the agency), most churches chose the latter option, in essence it is almost imposible to evade the tax because it is part of law and it is government enforced. There is one way though of evading the tax, by freedom of religion, u will be exempted from the tax if u leave the church and legally reject your faith. Many people have decided to evade the tax by actually "rejecting the church", that is actually a schismatic act. That alone would invite all the censures. The matter was a little heated, to publicly and legally reject the chuch excludes u from holy communion, been a sponsor for anybody, if u continue till the end it exclude u from a catholic christian burial because a public rejection simply means "im not a catholic and dont treat me like one". In essence the document released by the bishop was simply confirming something that was already there, to reject the church was the reject all the right a catholic enjoyed. But the report of "excommunication" is bogus, the bishop didnt even use the word, ofcourse they wanted to because canon law prescribes medicinal excommunication for public rejection but the vatican prevented them form excommunicating people. The bishops arent excommunicating people based on tax, the bishop are confirming the censures incured for a public rejection of the church. The same thing applies in nigeria, when u leave the church, u cant be a sponsor in a marriage or baptism, u cant recieve any of the sacrament and u cant have a catholic burial because u have declared u arent a catholic. If u wish to come back, u need to make a profession of faith etc. Etc. The bbc report simply picked and chose what to report and how to report it. No bishop excommunicated anybody even though public rejection was excommunicable.

ijawkid: ""HE WHO CAUSES TO BE"" sounds more of an explicit definition of that name ..""Yahweh""

cherry picking, beautifully done, actually the best interpretation of that name is "he who is". Beautiful cherry picking.

But like the scriptures I put up there,Yahweh and YehshÙa are 2 different names...

.The father Ànd the Son bear different nÀmes.......

They are 2 ÐiffÉrent distinct persons...

You guys wanna make the name ""Yahweh"" sound like the surname of your so called triune Godhead.........that's an epiÇ lie

The scriptures do not support your stance.....

hahaha, enjoy argueing with yourself.

Ptolomeus: Hello Ube ...
"Jesus is God, but Jesus is not God."
"That should not be read literally, is a parable"
Are typical expressions of Christianity.
It is not my intention to offend, but Christianity is not a doctrine.
Jesus never spoke of trinity.

Jesus also never said the word "bible" it was written after he died, that doesnt mean that the bible isnt part of christianity, ur arguement is bogus.

The first record on the Trinity, was at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AFTER DEATH OF JESUS​​.
I think that explains everything.
My respects.

the first record of trinity isnt nicea, tertullian already did many years before nicea. The first mention of bible was even after d trinity was mentioned, when d name was first recorded isnt an arguement, the arguement is whether of not the apostles taught that d fada is God the son is God and d holy spirit is God and that God is one. That is the arguement. Ur post above doesnt even touch it.

ijawkid: Hey your so wrong my bro....

The meaning of Yahweh isn't I AM...

We humans use I AM in our day to day lives...

We are not Yahweh are we??

Please go do research and tell me what the name Yahweh means.....

Go and do research.....

Use your google and check the meaning of the tetragrammaton......

Let the trinity not dull you....

I AM does not exclusively and clearly define what Yahweh means.....

i think u are d person wu have allowed ur bias to dull u, and u can google it up. Yaweh, Jahveh, means he we causes to be, he was, he is, or he will be, it come from the same verb as i am, the verb 'to be'. Go and make ur research.

Pastor Kun: Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax.

A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.

The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.

They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.

All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.

"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.

Catholics make up around 30% of Germany's population but the number of congregants leaving the church swelled to 181,000 in 2010, with the increase blamed on revelations of sexual abuse by German priests.

Alarmed by their declining congregations, the bishops were also pushed into action by a case involving a retired professor of church law, Hartmut Zapp, who announced in 2007 that he would no longer pay the tax but intended to remain within the Catholic faith.

The Freiburg University academic said he wanted to continue praying and receiving Holy Communion and a lengthy legal case between Prof Zapp and the church will reach the Leipzig Federal Administrative Court on Wednesday.

Tax on Germany's Christians

25 million Catholics

Tax worth 5bn euros (2010)

24 million Protestants

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.

Tax worth 4.3bn euros

German population 82 million

'Wrong signal'

Unless they pay the religious tax, Catholics will no longer be allowed receive sacraments, except before death, or work in the church and its schools or hospitals.

Without a "sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused," the decree states. Opting out of the tax would also bar people from acting as godparents to Catholic children.

"This decree at this moment of time is really the wrong signal by the German bishops who know that the Catholic church is in a deep crisis," Christian Weisner from the grassroots Catholic campaign group We are Church told the BBC.

But a priest from Mannheim in south-western Germany, Father Lukas Glocker, said the tax was used to do essential good works.

"With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things."

While the decree severely limits active participation in the German Catholic Church, it does hold out some hope for anyone considering a return to the fold.

Until now, any German Catholic who stopped payment faced eventual excommunication. Although the measures laid out in the decree are similar to excommunication from the church, German observers say the word is carefully avoided in the decree.

Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

the media has started to play games. The report didnt give the full picture.

chukwudi44: @ pastor kun

Compulsory tithing is not a teaching og the catholic church.I don't know where the german bishops based their acts but it is not the doctrine of the catholic church.

i'm as surprised as well, unless the secular media is playing games. Bishops have power to excommunicate, but tithing is totally optional, one certainly cant be excommunicated on a matter concerning totally optional practices. I have to check this out.

chukwudi44: The entire church was one in mind and body in the early church.By the second century various gnostic sects had arisen with strange doctrines most notably where the followers of marcion and valentinus.St ireneaus actually mentions more sects in his work written in 185CE "against heresies".By this time the name catholic church had come to be used to represent those who had remained faithful to the orthodox faith.

These gnostic sects were the major divisions witnessed in the late fist and second centuries although most of them fizzled out later.

By the third century after the brutal diocletan persecution,the donatist schism came about and then the arian and nestorian controversy of the fourth and fifth centuries.

While all these earlier schisms especially that of arianism could not be ignored the first major schism in the catholic church occured in 451CE @ the council of chalcedon.There the churches of egypt,ethiopia and armenia broke away from the catholic church to become independent.

The biggest schism in the catholic church finally occured in 1054CE when the pope and the bishop of constantinopole mutually excommunicated themselves begining the seperation between the churches in eastern europe and the catholic church.it is today known as the east-west schism

just a little update the church of egypt has come back to communion rome, i think it is called 'the coptic catholic church' or something like that. A little correction too, in the 1054 schism the pope and patriarch didnt mutually excommunicate themselves, the pope had died and d conclave hadnt decided a new pope, a cardinal excommunicated the patriarch, unknown to him that the pope was dead, the patriarch immediately excommunicated the cardinal even though he knew that d see of constantinople didnt have any power over those in d roman see. The pope wasnt involved.

Pastor Kun: You are wrong, there are at least five major christian denominations that pre date the catholic church and did not spin off(protest) from them; namely greek orthodox church, ethopian church, egyptian coptic church, syrian orthodox church and the armenian church. These churches never protested from
the catholic church.

Basically speaking, not all christian churches broke away from the catholic church.

they did, that is what the east west divide was about. The east changed her name to "orthodox church" and d west maintain the name catholic

ijawkid: Oh so the catholics feel

##Yahwehs name is Yahweh??

##Jesus name is Yahweh??

## the holy spirits name is Yahweh.....??

Y'all must be on some shekpe or drugs...

The trinity has driven your minds and mental faculties crazy....

I'm sorry I have to say that.....

I can't believe I'm hearing this from you guys.....

Please show me where d bible says Jesus's name is Yahweh and also the holy spirit...

Please I need scriptures....

Don't go around in circles my bro....

I got about :hundreds of verses to show God the Father's name is Yahweh...

Please I need yours on Jesus and the holy spirit.....

U guys have gone out of control.....

aha! I have decided to deny u d pleasure of that argument. I do wish anyway to inform u that the name yahwe mean 'he is' in essence the name yahweh and "i am" revealed to moses arent different, u would certainly find christ using d word 'i am' thru out scriptures.