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Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:54am On Aug 31, 2014

^^^^
Indeed, the bitter but true reality of orthodox interpretation of the Qur'an or Islam. Those who deny the ugly basis of imposing a special 'tax' on non-muslims within the sharia state are soundly refuted by their own revered interpreter of Qur'an: Ibn Kathir. Infact, it goes beyond saying that "Jizya" in sharia state or orthodox Islamic theology is basically a tool to subjugate and humiliate non-muslims.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:53am On Aug 31, 2014

We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy slaves who were captured by Muslims.

We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes."

When I gave this document to Umar, he added to it, "We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:52am On Aug 31, 2014

We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.

We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices with prayer at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:50am On Aug 31, 2014

We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors of our houses of worship for the wayfarer and passerby.

Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.

We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit or betrayal against Muslims.

We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.

We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:47am On Aug 31, 2014

The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash- Sham:

`In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:45am On Aug 31, 2014

Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al- Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:44am On Aug 31, 2014*

Jizya in orthodox Islamic texts

Many attempt justifying the mainstream muslims' interpretation of "Jizya" as a common tax paid by non-muslims for protection, provisions and priviledges they enjoy under the state but referring to the orthodox Islamic texts, we are met with a gross contrast.

Qur'an 9:29: Exegesis of Ibn Kathir:

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said, "until they pay the Jizyah", if they do not choose to embrace Islam(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, ('and feel themselves subdued'), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

Islam › Re: The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:42am On Aug 31, 2014

Rationality is the primary requirement for understanding the scripture. Those who trade it for comformity, blind faith or wishful thinking earn only misery and regression even after years or decades of studying religions or scriptures. God condemns them:

[Qur'an 10:100] And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of God, and He will place curse upon those who will not use reason.

Islam › The Puzzled 's Guide To Jizya by usermane(op): 8:41am On Aug 31, 2014

Deeply disheartened with the direction of my previous thread; Pened Response To Uyghur cries, the need arose to address certain issues properly. And thus, the idea of opening this thread was conceived.

To understand Islam properly, one must be willing to study the Qur'an in its original language, terminologies, literary and context. One must have a sound, rational and objective mind coupled with the will to travel length beyond his comfort zone in discovery of the truth.

Islam › Re: How Muslims Are Partly Responsible For The Palestine Suffering by usermane(m): 12:07am On Aug 31, 2014

Maharaba is just another form of riba if you dig deep. Infact, it could even be more exploitative than riba. I haven't seen any evidence for it in the Quran, maybe sb can help me. I don't mind getting evidence from hadith.

Zero interest banking shouldn't be always ascribed to Islam. Usury or interest was never accepted by the Catholic Church, ancient historic cultures and nations. So, it is funny how orthodox muslims just want to take all the credit whenever zero interest banking is sought after or adopted.

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 11:08pm On Aug 30, 2014

Judging me as an extremist is lame, tbh. By the same token, an ex-muslim will be the greatest extremist for rejecting both Quran or Hadith, is that right?

I leave you with 5 questions regarding hadith.

1. Why do hadith books remain largely absent till 200+ years after the Prophet?

2. Is it a coincidence that non of the compilers of the six main sunni hadith book is an arab or bedouin?

3. Why did Abubakr & Umar burn hadith writtings and they as well as the Prophet forbade spreading hadith?

4. How come Abu Huraira who embraced Islam less than 2 years before Prophet 's death reported 5000+ ahadith which is double the total record of ahadith reported by Aisha, Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali.

5. You claim to reject hadith that contradict Qur'an. If such position is credible, how do you treat an hadith that prescribe or prohibit what the Qur'an is silent on, like Tarawih or Music? How do you verify the authenticity of such hadith?

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 11:07pm On Aug 30, 2014*

Although clues on salat may not be found in the Quran, the discrepancies in the clues from hadith books do not make hadith a reliable source in anyway. The clues in hadith are contradictory, inconsistent and never is the full detailed format of salat common among muslims ever presented. One can get such clues from hearsay, legends or history works and not neccesarily from hadith. book.

How many percent of today muslims or their parents learnt salat from hadith? Jews, Zoroastrians and Pagan arabs performed Salat in Muhammad 's days. Salat was a norm then and the Prophet learn't it from his society before Prophethood. No report exist that Muhammad was divinely taught salat to teach believers as Abraham was(21:73)

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 10:58pm On Aug 30, 2014

Sahih Muslim, Book : 4
Number 0908:

Abu Qatada reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) led us in prayer and recited in the first two rak'ahs of the noon and afternoon prayers Surat al-Fitiha and two (other) surahs. And he would sometimes recite loud enough for us the verses. He would prolong the first rak'ah more than the second. And he acted similarly in the morning prayer.

This contradict other reports that mandate silent recitation all through Noon Salat.

Sahih Muslim
Book 4, Number 0769:

Suhail reported on the authority of his father that Abu Huraira used to recite takbir on all occasions of rising and bending (in prayer) and narrated that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do like that.

In contradictory reports, Takbir isn't recited when raising after bowing.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 374 :

Narrated by Abu Hazim Sahl bin Sa'd was asked about the (Prophet's) pulpit as to what thing it was made of? Sahl replied: "None remains alive amongst the people, who knows about it better than I. It was made of tamarisk (wood) of the forest. So and so, the slave of so and so prepared it for Allah's Apostle . When it was constructed and place (in the Mosque), Allah's Apostle stood on it facing the Qibla and said 'Allahu Akbar', and the people stood behind him (and led the people in prayer). He recited and bowed and the people bowed behind him. Then he raised his head and stepped back, got down and prostrated on the ground and then he again ascended the pulpit, recited, bowed, raised his head and stepped back, got down and prostrate on the ground. So, this is what I know about the pulpit.

This isn't a direct description of the Prophet salat here. But the emphasis is on physical interaction of the Prophet with the pulpit. Every act in salat was stated, why was "sitting" skip?

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 10:57pm On Aug 30, 2014

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Hadith Number 0781.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered the mosque and a person also entered therein and offered prayer, and then came and paid salutation to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) returned his salutation and said: Go back and pray, for you have not offered the prayer. He again prayed as he had prayed before, and came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and saluted him. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) returned the salutation and said: Go back and say prayer, for you have not offered the prayer. This (act of repeating the prayer) was done three times. Upon this the person said: By Him Who hast sent you with Truth, whatever better I can do than this, please teach me.

He (the Holy Prophet) said: When you get up to pray, recite takbir, and then recite whatever you conveniently can from the Qur'an, then bow down and remain quietly in that position, then raise yourself and stand erect; then prostrate yourself and remain quietly in that attitude; then raise yourself and sit quietly; and do that throughout all your prayers.

A man is taught to recite not necessarily Chapter 1 but whatever he can of the Quran. Also note that this is one of the rare salat that attempt to present salat act sequentially, but contrary to common muslim practice, no recitation but silence is observed on bowing, prostration or sitting. And Chapter 1 may not even be obligatory afterall.

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 10:39pm On Aug 30, 2014

Peace Empiree. The only message that Muhammad testified to recieve from God is the Qur'an(6:19). The onus is on you to prove the divinity of hadith books. As for me, i believe that as foretold in Quran 6:112-113, hadith were fabricated and ascribed to Muhammad. Thus, i don't see rejecting hadith in any way as disobedience to messenger.

I hope you 've seen my post on salat. Get it on page 10, if you haven't. You even quoted it. Here are samples of discrepancies found in hadith books. I 've posted 2 earlier on, there are several other discrepancies in hadith pertaining to salat. But one block at a time.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:23pm On Aug 29, 2014*

You cannot please God by refraiming from lawful things he has permitted or not spoken of, in the name of sticking to rituals or worship. All you are required is to reverence God and believe His messenger. Sometimes you might get too distracted from His remembrance or pushed to sin but God forgives and Is the Most Merciful.

Disregard those who insist you must purchase their doctrines to get the grace of God. Some of the worst losers on the day of Judgement spent their life thinking they have been doing good. Return to God, to the Scriptures, to the Quran and set yourself free.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:22pm On Aug 29, 2014

[57:28] O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and believe in His messenger. He will then grant you double the reward from His mercy, endow you with light to guide you, and forgive you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[57:29] Thus, the followers of previous scripture should know that they have not monopolized GOD's mercy and grace, and that all grace is in GOD's hand. He bestows it upon whomever He wills. GOD is Possessor of Infinite Grace.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:20pm On Aug 29, 2014

God reject the doctrine of hermitism or monastism in this verse. This doctrine has been praised, glorified and preserved among orthodox Christian. Yet, it cant be traced to Jesus or his disciples.

Although being hedonistic or self indulgent must be avoided, to bar oneself from sexual relief for a lifetime in order to forestall sexual temptation in future is an overkill. God 's definition of a righteous servant isn't a sinless, hermitic perfectionist but a moderate seeking for the best and noble in all affairs.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. God 's law are in tone with human capacity, common sense and nature. We do not realise this because right before we can distinguish left from right, we drowned in faulty, dogmatic man-made laws ascribed to God.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:19pm On Aug 29, 2014

[57:26] We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked.

[57:27] Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism/monastism which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:15pm On Aug 29, 2014

Why do Isrealis continue to dominate Palestinians, why does Saudi need the services of US troops, why do the Gulf states have to import every manufactured product of technology or medicine from the west?

Lot of conferences have been held to discuss these issues and the only solution the muslim clergy can produce is "LET US RETURN TO THE QURAN AND SUNNAH". How is this a viable solution when Iran, Saudi A, or Taliban of Afghanistan who have effected it are yet to yield any fruit of medicine, technology or sciences?

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:15pm On Aug 29, 2014

But if the Quran is such a brillant book, why are muslims who cling to it all day the most backward in scientific, medical or technological field? I implore you to read their oral traditions, Quran exegesis and listen to the clergymen, all of which they have prefered over the direct verses of the Quran.

Of course, we know how much muslims fondly remember their earliest predecessors for contribution in scientific evolution and victorious battle. But truely, Islamic orientation of today muslims widely varies from that of the predecessors. Today muslims are steeped in ignorance, primitiveness and extremism.
Noteworthy is that the westerners under the Church were just as regressed as the muslims. But as soon as they broke free of the hedgemony of the Church, they rose to a height far beyond the muslims.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:14pm On Aug 29, 2014

Subtle hints to scientific facts exist in this verse. Al Hadid(The Iron) is the 57th chapter of the Quran. The numeric value of "Al Hadid" is 57. 57 is the mass number of an istope of Iron, the element this verse discusses.
The numeric value of "hadid"(Iron) is 26. This verse is the 26th of the chapter, counting from 57:0. The 26th occurence of "God" in this chapter is in this verse. 26 is the atomic number of Iron.
There seem to be a correlation between the words and scientific facts. This isn't a rare phenomenon as the Quran is a Book that recognise rational and scientific approach. A number of scientific facts too advanced for the 7th century men are treated in the Quran.

Islam › Re: Qur'an: The Iron(57) by usermane(op): 7:13pm On Aug 29, 2014

[57:25] We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs, and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice. And we sent down the iron, wherein there is strength, and many benefits for the people. All this in order for GOD to distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers, on faith. GOD is Powerful, Almighty.

Islam › Re: While Being Oppressed, We Have Become Oppressors- Maajid Nawaz by usermane(m): 6:53pm On Aug 29, 2014

There are moderates who aren't in support of these oppression of non-muslims by muslims in the name of Islam. But the moderates are often weak in the face of the extremists, they are subject to the extremist who often lead their mosques or schools, organise seminars and prohibit or permit for them. To worsen it, most moderates cannot defend their stance from an Islamic view, they have this defeatist mindset and more often than not believe the extremists are the true muslims keeping the message of God.

Islam › Re: How Muslims Are Partly Responsible For The Palestine Suffering by usermane(m): 5:05pm On Aug 29, 2014

TheBigUrban2: They know that islamic finance can not give them the profits they need

And they do not stop their mullahs from cursing even bankers that charge fair interest?
Anyway, my economics isn't so good and i 've always thought the muslims claims that zero interest banking is increasingly adopted even in Europe for it massive economic contribution was true.

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 4:53pm On Aug 29, 2014

Hkana: I thought "Islamic economics" referred to an economic system based on Islamic principles?

IMO, when you say Islamic economics, it is supposed to be a broad term that discusses import, export, exchange, tax, loans, security, stock, shares etc. And so far no one has provided verses or oral traditions that treat these issues specifically.

1 Like

Islam › Re: How Muslims Are Partly Responsible For The Palestine Suffering by usermane(m): 8:02pm On Aug 28, 2014

TheBigUrban2: First of all, OPEC increases the price of oil as they like.

Secondly, many of these islamic countries have money and currency deposits in Western Banks that yield interest

There are non interest banks in their country. Something tells me that i need to be schooled on this. What would drive the government of an anti riba masses to invest in riba banks?

1 Like

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 7:56pm On Aug 28, 2014

Sissie: @Their religion or their perspective of the religion or is it not your religion? Or is the "their religion" isn't islam?

My bad, you 're right. 'Their perspective of the religion' would be more appropriate.

Sissie: So compound interest is the only related matter in the Quran? So usury (measurement) , Zakat (tax) etc isn't mentioned this isn't part of economics?

Isn't compound interest interchangeable with usury?
Zakat has nothing to do here. It is not a state tax.
Simply tell us that there are Islamic principles that must be kept while running an economic system. It is more accurate than using the term Islamic Economics.

2 Likes

Islam › Re: How Muslims Are Partly Responsible For The Palestine Suffering by usermane(m): 9:16am On Aug 28, 2014

BigUrban2: 3) UAE, Qatar and Saudi
Arabia prefer to invest
oil money in riba

Pls can you shed light on this? Doesn't the Gulf countries all forbid even the slightest interest?

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 8:53am On Aug 28, 2014

TheBigUrban2: Ehem......also address the claims of there being "Islamic Economics"

I am on the side that there is no such thing as islamic economic (finance, yes but not economics that can run a nation's economy)

Sissie and Empiree are on the side that islamic economics exists

You know when those two talk of Islam, they actually refer to their religion which is heavily based on oral traditions ascribed to the Prophet, the so called biographies of the Prophet, Quranic exegesis, teachings and practiced of their ancient and revered clergymen.

By Islam, i mean the Quran and no there is no such thing as Islamic economics although an economic related matter like compound interest is mentioned.

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 8:12am On Aug 28, 2014

Empiree: Now, I understand why you dont understand Quran. But for the sake of this forum, may I ask you how you pray obligatory salat?.

Really? I still have to go over how i perform my salat after posting it earlier and having you all class it as ignorance?

You learnt your salat from hadith, so how come those hadith were mainly instructions on how to prostrate, sit, bow or stand, what about the sequence or order in which these acts are to be performed. If i as a novice collect all the hadith books, at best i 'll have a fair idea of what salat entails but because i can't find procedure, a sequence in which the acts are performed my salat may vary from what is commonly known. I believe you can't just teach aliens how to shoot, how to pass, throw, cross or kick off and assume they can have a football match as humans do. When do they shoot, when do they cross, what do they do after a goal etc... are important facts they must be taught too.

The contradictions i uncovered, the question i asked werent addressed in your last post. You guys may dub me ignorant, misguided, hypocrite and all you please. But my questions still remain

1. Which evidence have you got that God taught Muhammad salat?

2. Which hadith teach salat by giving you the sequence or order in which you perform the acts(bow, stand, sit etc)?

3. What about the contradicting Ahadith?

Islam › Re: Islam For Muslims: Side Talk Station by usermane(m): 11:57pm On Aug 27, 2014

In your first hadith, it is reported that the Prophet said, "pray as you see me pray". This hadith doesn't describe or teach salat. One of the later hadith you cited imply variation in salat of women. This is a contradiction to the first hadith which requires muslims to pray as they saw the Prophet did, regardless of gender. There other are other contradictions, some of which don't involve the hadith you quoted.

Even for your hadith on ablution, there are contradictory hadith. There is hadith where the Prophet 's ablution consisted of only four steps as in Quran 5:6 and there is hadith were the Prophet or his companions performed as common today, leaving off only the ears.

Finally, you said typing that response was painstaking. Well, i don't know if its me but there seem to exist a striking resemblance between your post and another i found on sunni forum.

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