₦airaland Forum

Spewing garbage since the 60s
If John is talking about Israel, and Jesus is the Vine, what is Israel?

Secondly, the imagery of Romans is totally different from that of John. Their similarity ends with the vine.

shdemidemi:
This was a message to the nation of Israel, it is similar to what you will find in Rom 10 where Paul said they(Israel) have been cut off and replaced by a wild olive tree(Gentiles).

He said something similar in a parable in Mark 15(I think) where he talked about a tree that has refuse to bear fruit. He said the ax was set at the root, but the gardener pleaded that the tree be kept for three more years to see if it will be any better.

All of Jesus' parables were directed at the Jews, He was restricted from talking directly about the church(FAITH ALONE) because He had to die first. We can learn from those parables but they were not speaking directly to the church.

The love is UNCONDITIONAL but that is not a blank check unless you are into universalism where everybody is saved in the end and they live happily ever after

Am sure you don't consider your faith in Christ as a condition,do you?

Continuing in faith as a condition for your salvation is as conditional as having faith in the first place. Is any of these WORKS?

Bidam:
Anyway whichever way you see it i believe God's love is UNCONDITIONAL the only condition attached is rewards for good works which is fruit bearing.

Calvin INVENTED Unconditional eternal security security my broda.

Am least interested in the phrase as much a what they represent namely the lie that Christians can get away with EVERYTHING. God is basically helpless against his own creation, He will drag them to heaven against their will if that is what it takes

Bidam:
I do
not believe the doctrine of eternal security is the invention of calvin. The same calvin quoted the pauline epistles to butress his arguments as do Jacobus Arminius who also teaches that you can lose eternal life by sinning after your freewill decision that got salvation started. OSAS is used truthfully if it is applied to the will of God in election, the death of Christ in justification, or the cleansing of the Spirit in regeneration. We can glory in this manmade phrase by applying it to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,the faithfulness and power of God and the meritorious value and perpetual intercession of Jesus Christ.

So you discovered your voice? I had 'prophesied' that playing dumb is the only way you would get off

Once you are ready with Google, start a thread on your garbage and watch it dismantled in seconds

shdemidemi:
You are watching too much youtube critics... pick your bible- forget calvin or what he stands for- open the bible to see if what he said is supported by scripture or not.

I think that is a better way to go about it, you sure think otherwise.

SirJohn,
If only these guys were honest and admitted to making merchandise of the gospel!

There is a book I came across,and you may do well to grab a copy here;
https://www.nairaland.com/2082266/synagogue-satan-brother-nosa

The author observed a prominent Nigerian church where to get into the main church 'sanctuary',the members are required to buy a dvd of the prophet! That's an intelligent way of levying a gate charge.

Sell the DVDS at cost and offer the content free for download from your site or on youtube

SirJohn:
@vooks, your point number 1 has always got me thinking, and even when these messages are split into 40mins bits, what you have is actually about 20mins of the sermon and the rest 20mins is just adverts for other ministry merchandise like books and other DVD's.

And it doesn't end there, I wonder if the high cost of these DVD's are justifiable. I've heard them oftentimes try to justify this by quoting Proverbs 23:23 out of context: "Buy the truth, and sell it not...", I wonder how this justifies their actions

Eternal security is an invention of Calvin and is a central tenet Calvinism and the various creeds emanating from it. Guys are busy defending dead men and their systems and they won't let facts confuse them

When you think about it,there is a continuum of beliefs from Eternal Insecurity where NOBODY is sure of their eternity to Eternal Security where your eternity is so sealed and NOTHING you do can undo that.

There is a wealth of scriptures against both position. I believe in Conditional Security. You are assured of your eternity as long as you remain in faith. You depart from faith and you are damned.

Bidam:
Yeah, apostasy is willful rejection of Christ and that is why this debate is hotly debated by theologians because the concept of God's sovereign and amazing grace in new testament scripture far outweighs the few scripture on a christian rebellion.

Garbage stinks and no amount of palongo or azonto hops from one irrelevance to the other can change that. Your best solution is to play dumb

shdemidemi:
Don't shove your nauseating attributes to God, rather deal with it with His Word. Get objective, make your point without expecting it to be a rule I must accept or share. Beyond that, make scripture the judge of what is garbage and what isn't..

Hail shdemidemi,King of semantics and word play, he of the speaking-in-tongues vs speaking-in-an-unknown-tongue BS

I keep on saying that Google can't increase your IQ and am always accused of insulting people

BabaGnoni:
We cool, nothing spoilt.
I blew my horn on your post here
(i.e. https://www.nairaland.com/2076644/christian-justify-still-guilty-charged/6#29662791)

C'mom now Shdemidemi, who said "lack of faith", certainly wasnt me, not my choice of words
The difference between "lose faith" and "lack of faith" is unambiguous

What are your many definitions and/or meaning of faith?
- Make it a honest and exhaustive one
Is apostasy not departing from the faith? Yes or No
Did Adam, in "disobeying constituted authority", not depart from the faith, faith in the word of God then?
If Adam didnt lose faith, who lost faith in Eden then?
Did any party lose faith in Eden at all?
I anticipated you might play the semantic-with-the-meaning-of-faith move

Bidam,
This is one post with the MOST verses quoted on NL. You are a diligent man in the things of God. May He reward you mightily.

Now,I have no problem with all that is said here namely the author (not Paul) is warning against apostasy, the question is, can this apostasy land a former believer in hell?

I won't fight your conviction my broda, we have had enough of that. For vooks, I read loss of salvation/eternity for apostasy and two arguments are employed by the author to buttress his point;
1. The IMPOSSIBILITY of restoring such an apostate
2. The CONSEQUENCES of apostasy namely hellfire

Bidam:
Ok vooks, back to the discuss concerning the heb verse you harangue shdemidemi with. I think it was a warning against apostasy, the hebrew audience were thinking of abandoning their faith in Jesus and lapsing back into Judaism...fastfoward to modern day and you will notice folks who are tired of church becoming atheist.

This excerpt from an article i am reading now might provoke some thoughts and contribute to the discuss.



The lesson is simple: If the believing Hebrews who had received gospel blessings and privileges fell away to Judaism, their practical recovery from judgment was impossible due to the seriousness and timing of their crime.

The salvation of 6:9 is practical salvation from judgment (Compare Ac 2:40).
This solution fits the overall message of Christ and the apostles to the Jews.
This solution fits the overall context of Paul's persuasion against apostasy.
This solution fits the immediate context of Paul's rebuke for slothfulness.
This solution places a most excellent and severe warning land exhortation here.
This solution fits Paul's fear of their departing from God (Heb 3:12) and fall (Heb 4:11).
This solution fits Hebrews' wording (Heb 2:1-3; 4:1,11; 10:26-31,38-39; 12:15-17,25-29).
This solution satisfies the urgency and finality of "nigh unto cursing" (Heb 6:.

The Hebrews were under far greater gospel duty than the Gentiles at this time.

When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ, Paul left them (Acts 18:6; 13:46; 28:28).
But he was sure of renewing Gentile apostates again to repentance (Gal 4:19).
The blinding of elect Jews is a great mystery of the gospel (Romans 11:25-28).

The presence or lack of growth and fruit shows God's position to the ground (Heb 6:7-.

Ground and men are similar - fruit evidences God's blessing and thorns His curse.
Ground that brings forth thorns is rejected, nigh unto cursing, and to be burned.
God rejects those that reject Him (II Kgs 17:20; Jer 7:29; Hos 4:6; Heb 12:17).
God curses (swares against) His enemies (Ge 4:11-22; Deut 11:26-28; Heb 3:11,18).
God will burn plants without fruit (Mat 3:10; 7:19; Jn 15:6; Heb 10:27; 12:29).
Paul had similarly, though not identically, warned the Gentiles (I Cor 16:22).
God burned up the Hebrew nation for rejecting Christ (Malachi 4:1; Matt 22:7)
God will burn up the Gentiles that do not obey Christ's gospel (II Thess 1:7-10).

I have never claimed to know all but I sure can sniff garbage from miles off. You got problem with that? Aks God who made me thus

shdemidemi:
This is your best part of the discourse, isn't it?

Exchanging those lines with you was my way of letting you spit out what you have been willing to do all along. Enough of all those childishness, get back to God's business- not vooks business so no need to get personal with it.

No competition, no imposition of ideas, share your understanding while I share mine, we just might come out better christians. That is if you agree we both don't know it all.

There was a man who used to beg his friends to hold him tightly every time he lost his cool lest he he beats up somebody. One day he was offended and he begged them and they did. But they released him and he was beaten up so bad.

Bring it on negro, make my day. Trust me if I was to lose my faith, it would not be over harebrained half-misunderstood garbage

shdemidemi:
Pauline doctrine is nothing new my friend, it has been there since Paul got saved.

you might just end up like Frosbel after that thread because you will be forced to make a choice between The Bible and Vooks' 'puny' enormous cerebral capacity.

Lol is for your teenage kids you never had

1. Were believers before resurrection justified?

2. If not, at what point were they justified?

Paxonel has so eloquently and wisely answered. That's a man of God

shdemidemi:
Lol..Guess you thought you had a checkmate question you can dwell on. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

I know objectivity is not your forte neither is comprehension, I advice you take time to read the post again it might just resonate if you revise long enough.

Bidam my broda,
There is so much garbage there and the onus is on its adherents to present their version and we examine it. If it is so scriptural, do they want vooks to perish or remain in the dark?

Be very wary of 'new' doctrines

Bidam:
i can't wait to follow that thread.Oya vooks over to you

Thank you.
After Resurrection, did Jesus appear to unbelievers? That is barring Paul

paxonel:
at the resurrection of Jesus, that means, if Jesus had not resurrected he wouldn't have been justified

You are full of unintelligible glib.
Were they justified before the death of Jesus Christ?

If not, at what point were they justified

shdemidemi:
[size=2pt]Justification by faith as we have it in the epistles of Paul isn't what they had before the passion of Christ.

They were justified to be a part of the kingdom Jesus came to earth to establish with the nation of Israel. But as a nation, israel denied its king..
John 1:11
New International Version
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

The speaker for the disciples asked Christ just before ascension-
Acts 1:6
New International Version
Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

To Peter, it was all about the kingdom and the disciples will definitely be a part of the Kingdom of God.

To Apostle Paul it was not about 'Israel' getting restored as a kingdom where Jesus rules, it is now about the world getting saved through justification to be a part of the God's Kingdom. Not just for Israel anymore but for anyone who believe.[/size]

I can't start a thread to disprove what you believe because I don't even know what you do believe seeing there are several shades of Dispensationalism. That's Logic 101 but puny brains overheat over such stuff

shdemidemi:
Go ahead if you so desire...are you bitter that you're not having your way, awww

Make that mention boy let's look in to scripture.

Were the disciples before Jesus' death justified?

shdemidemi:
The condition for Pater's salvation was on the premise that 'Jesus is indeed the son of God' plus repentance. That is not the same for me today, I must believe in my heart that He died, He was buried and He rose to be saved.

It's your junk. Teach the world and ask the mod to shut me out else you won't get past your first line of garbage

Of course you are a coward,a weeping coward. Can I get you some more kleenex?

shdemidemi:
Boy, get on with it, can't wait to see you tear scripture apart.

Make a mention, I will be there.

You haven't answered me.
Let me rephrase

Peter believed in Jesus BEFORE His death and persisted after. At what exact point was he justified? At the death or resurrection of Jesus or at Pentecost?

paxonel:
we all know that there is time for everything.
consequently, there was time before resurrection (between the birth of Christ and his resurrection, popularly known as the days of John the Baptist where the entering of Christianity suffereth violence I.e multitude of disciples or believers struggling to enter the time of Christianity ).this period falls within the time of old testament known as BC, because Christ was not yet crucified, even though it was recorded in the new testament. But no justification at this period. that means, believers may carry out miracles during this time, But they were yet to be justified because Christ has not yet died.
And there was time after resurrection ( which is the time or era we are now also known as the time of Christianity or AD, which is the kingdom of God ) this is where there is justification.
the event of pentecost in the book of act,was the beginning of Christianity ( the justified people ). act1:15 says they were about 120 people, I didn't write it.
the name Christianity was gotten at Antioch, But Christianity has started long before then.
name does not matter, name is only for identification, what matter is that we were justified at crufixion long before Antioch

Am allergic to BS
1. Did Paul teach 7 dispensations? Yes/no

2. Did anybody before John Darby teach 7 dispensations?

A clear scripture showing how you will perish and end up in hell is rejected because of
1. The audience of the epistle to Hebr
2. The author of Hebrews
3. Dispensationalism garbage


You are an old man. Old man listen up, start a thread on Dispensationalism and I gladly tear it apart and like Joagbaje, you will crawl back to the same hole you came from

The OP is least interested in Dispensationalism and that's why out of respect for his/her request,am solely focused on the subject at hand; SINNING AFTER JUSTIFICATION AND ITS CONSEQUNCES

You on the other hand are busy dancing like the ground under you is on fire,hopping from one irrelevance to the other all to defend your garbage. How sad

shdemidemi:
This is why you were hesitant and remain so to the issue of dispensationalism raised by Apostle Paul. I guess vooks has his own rules regardless of bible instructions. We can as well quote Revelation, mix it with Genesis, support it with Exodus, one size fits all, right?

You claimed that one can receive Christ on Pauline epistles ALONE. I told you that's BS because Pauline work is based on the historical Christ who you ONLY find in the gospels.

Without the gospels, tags such as Paul,an Apostle of Jesus Christ are meaningless.

In short, NT is sufficient in its entirety and not parts of it. Elevating parts of NT above others is reckless and a product of brainlessness

shdemidemi:
If you don't believe because Paul said so, you must believe because the bible say so. Except, of-course you like to go the way of Frosbel by arguing the inerrancy of the entire book.

I don't tire from garbage, I weary them with the Wisdom of God, just like Stephen praise be to Jesus!

Here is the point;
1. We have ONE message of salvation for BOTH Jews and Gentiles. This means regardless of whether an epistle was written to Igbos,Satanists,M0rons or Jews, the message is not distorted

2. Following 1.above, the ethnicity of the audience of an epistle is irrelevant in discerning the truth no more different than wondering whether Paul was right/left-handed

3. Following 2.,rejecting or watering down the message of an epistle on the basis of the ethnicity of its original audience is lunacy on stilts

italo:
I warned you about that guy.

When you show him where Jesus said believers are going to hell, he says that was before Jesus died so those believers were not justified.

When you show him that Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus died, he switches and says those working miracles in Jesus' name were not believers.

When you show him where the book of Hebrews, Romans, Corinthians show Christians can go to hell (after Jesus died), he says the books were written to Jews.

What amazes me is how BabaGnone pretends he doesn't see the dubious excuses just because they are defending the same position.

You're arguing with a man who believes there are two gospels and two Jesuses.

My advice is you ignore that one and discuss with the rest.

Arguing with him is like shouting back at an alarm system gone off.

You should either ignore it or put it off.

Garbage.
Do you have dyslexia?

Romans 15:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

shdemidemi:
Folks get blinded by this sort of statement a lot, so you ain't alone. They say, after all Paul is a man like me so why should he be an authority? I will rather work with what Jesus said while walking on earth.

Nothing can be farther from the truth. Jesus made it known that it was expedient that he leaves that the Spirit of truth may come. That Spirit is who Paul represented. He was a bond servant to that Spirit and He was sold out to the Spirit to speak His mind.

What was the office of Jesus when He walked the phase of the earth-
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

It is either we take scripture or take the other option of rejecting it, what we cannot do is impose our ideas on it or alternate it.

I will buy you a dozen boxes of Kleenex since the sight of of a middleaged man crying is disgusting

Define those terms as you wish and answer my question please.

How does knowledge of the audience of Hebrews affect your comprehension of Hebrews 6:4-5

That's a straw man; you are furnished with evidence of a justified shdemidemi perishing and you shout that the audience is Jewish!

So what? You have been busy googling all commentaries and sites that are trying to run away from the solid Revelation of Heb 6 namely believers can fall away and perish.

It is amazing the depths fickle brains will sink to escape the Sword of the Spirit

Are Jews/Hebrews unworthy of hearing the 'true 'gospel of eternal security?

Why should they ALONE be threatened with loss of salvation?

Did Holy Spirit 'forget' to inspire apostles who ministered to Jews with the same formula for salvation as He inspired and taught Paul?

Cc BabaGnoni,ayoku777

shdemidemi:
Never knew people get too big to answer questions in a tete-a-tete. Lucky me, I got answers from vooks. I'm fulfilled

Grow up son!!!

The gospels my friend. Why would I believe just because Paul said so? What or who was Jesus

Please stop mutilating scriptures and picking what suits your fancy

shdemidemi:
What else does Pauline epistle need from without for salvation to be achieved?

Paul taught Grace and he says by this gospel of Grace are ye saved.
Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What do I need outside of this?

Who else explained this principle of salvation plainly as this?

Half baked scholarly junk. Birds of a feather.....
Before you get to what Christians think, ask the Jews thought of this say 400 years before Christ

You would be reciting rosary 100 times a day had Martin Luther not stood up against the rot that was the then church

If it takes men to preach the saving gospel, what makes you think it will take Osmosis to correct an erring minister?

Diohanny:
Weldon!!!!!! Good write-up......But please hear this.
I have a warning for you and please, try and take it very serious.

Are you aware that you do not have a single right to criticize MAN OF GOD? You are not the one that called him into that ministry. If he needs to be rebuked for any of his actions, God knows better. I am just feeling for you when you were emphasizing the fact that............
IT IS VERY WRONG.....IT IS WRONG.....IT IS WRONG, Who sent you?

Remember what happened to such people that criticized Men of God in the time past. You are vulnerable to a curse from the one that sent him. If you are not comfortable with that policy, why don't just clear your way and find another root. Were you there with him when God gave him the mandate? What will be you take if eventually he was led of God to take that step?

Let us be very careful on how we criticize someone on a mission for God. Remember that this is not politics where you may think that you have a better way to run. This is divine assignment where some divine instruction may appear very foolish in the eyes of men.

I just wondered how some of us would have talked to,abuse Father Abraham when he received the instruction to sacrifice the only son (Isaac). That sound very foolish to the ordinary human. But, its a divine instruction.

Please, stay away from impending destruction that awaits those criticizers.....Be warned please. God bless you.

Paul and Jesus must have been the first false prophets for they taught the immortality of the soul.

Let me help this young man
1. What is immortality?
2. Are angels immortal?

What's sadder,political correctness in the reporting

shdemidemi:
You suddenly resort to dumb responses when you can't answer a question logically.

No question can come as easy as this- Was Paul's message offensive to the Jews and their traditions?

Silly and irrelevant questions, I don't dignify them by answering. You are very lucky I did

Key Words in Hebrews 6 v 4 -

'once enlightened'

tasted

heavenly gift

partakers

Are you happy that we define these words in their pertinent context.

Define them in any way that suits you

The BIGGER point is you have zero basis for claiming that when Jesus spoke of 'many' he was talking about miracle workers BEFORE his Passion and resurrection.

Now,why would you be so insistent (without proof)that the 'many' MUST be the pre-resurrection miracle workers?

It is because you are convinced or rather you BELIEVE/ASSUME that no justified believer can be thrown to hell and since ONLY believers can use the name of Jesus,the only believer/miracle workers who will be thrown in hell are the unjustified ones, the ones doing their thing BEFORE resurrection

Food for thought:
1. Do you honestly believe that of all that believed on Jesus during his ministry, ONLY 120 survived up to Pentecost?

2. Who were the firstfruits of Justification? What made them eligible?

paxonel:
Jesus started a journey from Galilee where he he did his first miracle, and ended the journey at Jerusalem where he was crucified. any time he finds those who were supposed to be his disciple he will ask them FOLLOW ME.
this is how he collected his disciples at first, from one city to the other,the miracles he did attracted most of them,until he has a multitude of disciples followed him to Jerusalem.
at the point he started the journey, the number of the disciples were few, this was the time he gave the available few (72 like you say ), power to cast out demons and heal the sick. these people were never Christians. Christianity started after crucifixion.
John the baptist and Judas Iscariot died, the over 5000 multitudes of disciples who ate bread and fishes ran away, only few of them (120 disciples ) started Christianity in the book of act.
the bottomline is, whether they were dead or they ran away, it is still the same thing. they missed out among those who started Christianity thereby missing the kingdom of heaven.

Was Paul's message offensive to Jews? Your guess is as good as mine,Bidam's,Babagnoni's or even SonOfLucifer's.

Answer my question.
How does knowledge of the audience of the Hebrews epistle affect your comprehension of this particular passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bear these facts in mind;
1. There are no distortions in the Hebrews or scriptures
2. The message of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is the SAME
3. Holy Spirit resides in believers PERMANENTLY

shdemidemi:
Do you think Paul's message was offensive to the Jewish nation?