₦airaland Forum

Workch:
There were no scientific research during the antiquity.
Classical Antiquity begins with the period of the writing of Homer's Illiad c. 800 BC to the decline of the Western Roman Empire c. 500 AD.

Even Aristotle thought earth is flat because they had no evidence

Lol

Scholars of today study antiquity. They study what happened back then. The scholars of today, who study what happened back then, virtually all agree that Jesus existed. Google is your friend

You don’t have to believe them though ❤️

Workch:
lol, those are the people you are relying on?

People who thought earth is flat

What are you saying 😂

You have to combine the meaning of the two words my bro lol

You must be trolling me at this point lol

Workch:
of antiquity.
What's antiquity?

Lol I posted it there

Here again for you ❤️

antiquity: the ancient past, especially the period of classical and other human civilizations before the Middle Ages.

Workch:
who are scholars of antiquity?

scholar: a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities.

antiquity: the ancient past, especially the period of classical and other human civilizations before the Middle Ages.

Workch:
Show me the evidence, why is it difficult to show me?

Type “did Jesus exist” on google and go from there my friend. It’s not some hidden secret ❤️

Workch:
I'm not saying that he didn't exist or he did, There just no evidence for it. You need to agree that there's no evidence for his existence

There is evidence he existed. Just not the type you're looking for lol. According to you there is no evidence for anyone that existed 2000 years ago actually existed.

There is evidence in literature that Jesus existed. Mostly non-religious people have researched this and have consensus. But I guess it is all just one big conspiracy.

Workch:
These are your scholars, I think I share their sentiment as well.
No evidence but it doesn't mean he didn't exist it he did exist.

Nothing to point to to be sure

The general public is mostly anti-christian. That is not news. Virtually all scholars who have done research say he existed

Workch:
I'm not Saying he didn't exist it not. I'm just saying that there is no evidence.
Don't be unsecured, I'm not trying to make you unbelieve it.

The only way anyone can accept the existence of Jesus Christ is on the basis of Belief, noot evidence because there is none that he did. That's my point l, even the so called scholars don't have evidence

It's not true. Virtually all scholars believe he existed based on research not faith

Workch:
So your only argument is a fallacy of appealing to authority?
That fallacy is what actually seperate Jesus from Robin Hood, not actual evidence

There's no evidence it is a fallacy lol

You refuse to accept that any historical figures from a certain time exists based on your standards. That is fine my bro. Free country

Workch:
I'm still trying to find an actual evidence for Jesus. You should try as well

I've previously admitted I'm a zombie. Just don't see the logical consistency in looking for the type of evidence that no one expects to exist for historical figures of a certain time lol

Workch:
These are my standards.

1. There are manuscripts actually written and Signed by Isaac Newton.
2. The family of Isaac Newton are still in England and they even talk to BBC. There family house still exist and even where Isaac newton resided.
3. There are actually descriptionsof what Isaac newton looks like.
4. There are proven records of Isaac newton's contributions in science in terms of inventions.
5. There are archeological remnant of Isaac Newton.

Show me any of these for Jesus Christ and I will agree with you are not deliberately creating another argument in order not avoid presenting evidence for Jesus.

I prefer the standards of the virtually all the world class scholars that have studied it deeply. Again it's good to be on the side of authority for a change lol

Workch:
going by your argument, we can also argue for the existence of Robin hood and King Arthur as historical figures. Of course, you and I know that there are no evidence that they existed

Historical scholars do not have consensus on Robin Hood even though he was thought to exists after Jesus. That's how strong the literature evidence is for historical figures like Jesus and Alexander the Great who existed much earlier

Workch:
Again, even if Isaac newton didn't exist, it's till not evidence that Jesus existed.

The existence of Isaac is mutually exclusive to that of Jesus. We still need evidence separately to prove the existence of Jesus Christ

Again I obviously accept that Newton existed. My arguments are to show that based on your standard one could easily argue that Isaac Newton didn't exist because there is no empirical evidence. And he only died a couple hundred years ago.

But the standard that most scholars use for historical figures is different. The further back you go the harder it is but still virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed because there is enough written about them from various sources.

Based on your standard no one can prove that any historical figure from over a thousand years ago existed lol.

Workch:
Someone cannot follow suhc reasoning when we can still trace Isaac newton's lineage.

The legacies of Isaac newton are far more provable than that of Jesus. His works are a living fossil of his existence. Aside from the bible, which is a claim, no one can really point to any evidence that Jesus walked on this planet

We have gone from "Jesus never existed because there is no evidence" to "Aside from the bible".

But despite moving the goal post, majority of scholars in this area do point to evidence outside the bible that Jesus existed. A quick google will tell you that.

It is, I have to see evidence before I believe it. That's logic

PS: pretty sure your believe that Isaac Newton did exist is based on your reliance on authority on the matter not any evidence you have seen lol

Workch:
Do you have evidence that I didn't place a teapot somewhere between the orbit ot Mars and Earth that no telescope can see?

I have read all and still cannot find an empiricsl evidence, so I don't know if Jesus actually existed.
You can show me evidence from those scholars that has convinced you this far

It is, I have to see evidence before I believe it. That's logic

Saying you don't know he existed is different to saying you don't believe he existed. I believe we have made some progress lol ❤️

Workch:
You could also say this about Robin hood and Kong Arthur.
But we can still find Isaac Newton family members in England and they still have a family house and even kept where Isaac lived. You cannot say that about Jesus.

I don't think there's logic is comparing the existence of Isaac newton to that of Jesus Christ

I mean I don't think so either. But someone could follow the same reasoning you're following and conclude that Isaac Newton didn't exists. The fact that there is a house somewhere that people claim he lived in or there are humans today claiming to be his descendants is not "empirical evidence" is it lol.

Workch:
sincerely, it's not a problem, as long as you draw inspiration from it. As long as you don't make it a fact that others must accept.

Because you are saying this again does not mean that it's not a fallacy of appealing to authority. Tell those smart people to tell you the evidence so you can show me.

do you think I have not searched the internet for evidence of Jesus?
If I saw one, then why am I still asking you?
If you think that I didn't search properly, you can refer me to link for one.
I'm not getting mad my brother. It's just a friendly conversation.
Don't be defensive

You said you don't believe he existed. Do you have evidence he never existed? lol

You say you couldn't find evidence he existed. I'm assuming you read the reasons why virtually all those scholars believe he existed. But you decided to believe he never existed without evidence he didn't exists?

Doesn't seem like a logically coherent position to take to me

Workch:
I don't know much about Alexander the great.
However, using Isaac Newton and William Shakespeare is a faulty equivalence, there are tonnes of evidence in form of pictures, their residence and even rooms that they both existed. None exist for Jesus.

The evidence for the existence of Jesus christ is equivalent to that of Robin hood. There's no evidence that both ever existed

I mean if I wanted to be obtuse I could say that pictures is not enough empirical evidence that Isaac Newton existed. I mean Newton died in the 18th century and I understand the camera was only invented in the 19th century. So what you're seeing are drawings.

Anyway I accept that all these people existed because there's no reason not to. Just showing you the natural extrapolation of your logic.

Workch:
So where is the evidence l, I will change my mind if you show me one

it's not nice to follow authority without authority providing evidence. It's makes one a zombie and that's why there's a fallacy specially created for it.
When referencing an authority, is important to bring the evidence this authority found. We need to start teaching religious people the basics of logic and reasoning

I'm a Christian. I'd believe in Jesus even if the smartest people in the world concluded tomorrow that he never existed lol. You can make of that what you want but that's me. I'm a full on "Zombie" for Christ to use your own words lol.

You've said you lean towards logic & science (unlike us zombies lol) but then said you "don't think such entity exist or ever existed" about Jesus and I'm saying that virtually all the smartest people in the world in the area of history agree that Jesus existed. Just like they do about Alexander the Great etc (I like that you didn't answer the question about the others lol)

If you think it is "not nice" to tell you what the authorities in this area believe without providing evidence then I can only apologies. The internet is open to all though. I was only interested in offering that virtually all the authority in this area say Jesus existed.

I've even admitted earlier that "I can't say your claim is objectively wrong" so not sure why you seem to be getting mad at me ❤️

Workch:
yes, the existence of Jesus Christ is subject to believe and not a matter of fact and evidence.
Because many historians think that he exist does not mean he does if they don't give evidence, let's not commit fallacy of appealing to authority.

Academia doesn't mean in science.
There's no empirical evidence that Jesus exist, it's unscientific for me to think he does.

Lol not "many". Virtually all who have studied it deeply.

It's nice to be on the side of authority for a change though as someone who believes in the virgin birth even though most authority in that area say it's not possible ever lol.

Do you believe Alexander the Great existed? William Shakespeare? Isaac Newton? ❤️

Workch:
please can you give me the evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed that I can test or has been tested to be true?

it's still very debatable within historians and again, historians do not have any evidence in form of manuscript or archeological artifacts to prove the existence of Jesus. If you have any, show me.

you don't need to be a Christian to live a pristine life like Christ as described in the Bible. It's a live that can be lived even as an atheists, you just need to be humane

You can choose to believe he didn’t exist, it’s your right . But again, there is extremely strong consensus among historical scholars that Jesus existed in person. To say it’s debatable is just not an accurate description of the status quo among historians. To deny that he ever existed is to also deny much of human history for lack of “evidence” because research in this area kind of has to work differently.

That’s why I didn’t say your claim is objectively wrong but instead said it’s not very pro-scientism (or maybe pro-academia is more appropriate). Again there are many ways to bash Christianity but this isn’t one of them ❤️

Workch:
I do not dislike christ, I don't think such entity exist or ever existed as there are no sufficient evidence to make such verdict. Irrespective of this, the teachings of Christ in the Bible is worth emulating and this world would be a better place if Christians can actually be Christ-like, but in reality they are not.

I don't dislike christians either, I dislike some of their behaviors

Workch you can’t claim to be pro-scientific research and then say “I don't think such entity exist or ever existed as there are no sufficient evidence to make such verdict” about Jesus.

There is strong consensus from non-religious historians about Jesus existing and how he died. You can bash Christianity while sticking to the facts lol.

Anyway thank you for your honest answer about Christ. Christians indeed should all try to be Christ-like but none of us are perfect ❤️

MightySparrow:
What do you dislike about Christ?

This is a great question…

Grayoso:
Nice post plus objective and fair observations. Love your conclusion as well. The part in bold, in your post, is very important to me personally.

This ia because, as I have always argued, Nigeria needs to evolve urgently like the West so that a powerfully responsible governance system is in place no one can hijack partisanly and as dangerously unchecked as Buhari did.

We could have experienced free-for-all Rwanda-style genocide with how Buhari was leading if not that Nigeria is the biggest black nation on Earth that would mean world intervention would be swift to prevent refugee crisis, humanitarian strife, proliferation of diseases etc.

I personally think there should be more anger against what Buhari and his cabal did, and more determination against a future repeat of it, than the singular focus of many Nigerians to dwell on who "brought Buhari" or supported him to power.

We now must charge Tinubu to deliver robust legislative laws, appropriate contitutional amendments, greater state and regional autonomy and strong institutional autonomy, plus legally-enforceable checks and balances, that will mean a Buhari will never happen to us again.

Buhari owed many Fulanis, who did not know better, Awolowo-type 'teach a man to fish' leadership.

Instead he chose to provide protection for deficiencies any wise leader would know he must eradicate from his people as Awolowo determined to provide free and quality education as a way to elevate and emancipate Yorubas forever.

Nigeria should heal and no one, from any ethnic group , should be prevented from being Presidenf in future.

The focus should be on working to deliver strong reforms that must mean a Hitler-type bigot, if he somehow fools enough Nigerians to get the vote to become President, cannot partisanly destroy the security, socio-economic wellbeing and even monetary integrity of Nigeria in pursuit of an ethnocentric or sectional agenda.

No UK Prime Minister today can tacitly, using the police and army, empower caucasians to run through minority-dominated areas killing, raping, pllillaging and maiming folks there.

That PM would not last even an hour in office. Yer Buhari did it for years and the entire Nigeria kept slient, tolerated it and even accepted it as a way of life.

That is what we have to change so we can become like Nations with strong laws and institutions. I would consider Tinubu failed if he does not deliver this.

ObJ, Yar Adua, GEJ ans Buhari have their fans and praise-singers for some good they did but the only President Nigerians can/should praise as successful would be one who evolutionarily reforms Nigeria so, for example, savagery and brutality are a thing of the past because State/regional policing exist rather than leaders (OBJ and GEJ) who will declare "Nigeria not ripe for State policiing" or those (like Buhari) who will not even indulge the idea let alone be open to discussing it.

Thank you, it's good to have a good faith discussion on here for a change lol. And I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote again.

Politics is not a polite sport most of the time so of course Tinubu's opposition is going to point out that he masterminded the party that brought Buhari into power. Could he have foreseen the disastrous administration? You could argue both ways.

I'm with you that most of the anger needs to be directed at Buhari and his cabal. I'm extremely passionate about this because I still know seemingly reasonable people that have a soft spot for him despite the overwhelming evidence of his failures. Many people take politics as a religion unfortunately and won't ever change their mind on anything (the ones I know supported him pre 2015 election) but will rationalise incompetence. We can't let anyone ever rewrite history about the type of president Buhari was and what he did to the country before we get round 2.

PBAT has a hell of a job on his hands. I'm not even asking for as much as you. If he can fix the economy, restore security and govern the country properly with competent and well qualified people in key areas he would have done well.

Improving our legislation and institutions as well as attaining true federalism would be excellent. These things are only as strong as the people enforcing them so no small feat and if the northern elites are against it then even harder.

Part of the reason the UK PM wouldn't last an hour is because most of the general population wouldn't put up with it (helps that the media is strong and will report it accurately). That causes a chain reaction upwards. Unfortunately we still tend to worship our leaders and political parties in Nigeria rather than seeing them as our servants.

All our presidents have had their flaws but Buhari in particular was an absolute disgrace.

JagabanBorgu:
Trying to Play mind games?
U need to work hard, from being sensitive to being angry now?
U mind games is more like children's play here.
Agree or not, Tinubu never needed ur votes to be president, he wón't be needing it in 2027, we voted him based on his capacity, u can continue to çry, I see u have started preparing lines for 2027 campaign already since u know ur case in court is dead already.

I don't know what is making you this way but e go better

I love you bro ❤️

JagabanBorgu:
U are the sensitive ones.
PBAT wrote a manifesto before Nîgeriàns went to the polls, he is following what he wrote and boom!!!
Lósers say he is performing because of them.

Buhari wrote manifesto too. And he failed woefully.

Weak mandate is added pressure to perform. Just a fact, even a "lóser" like me knows that lol.

God bless Nigeria ❤️

PS: why so angry. You won. Cheer up a bit ❤️

Grayoso:
While I am not a fan of Obi, and do not think him fit to be President, I think all pragmatic Nigerians who wish our nation well should thank him for denying PDP the votes that would have seen Atiku emerge President.

Nigerians have short memory but the Northern plots, spearheaded in APC and PDP, to deny a strong and independent minded Southerner becoming President was well organised, well supported and desperate.

We saw this with APC with the way Buhari and his Northern supremacist were happy and willing to destroy their own Party to stop Tinubu emerging the Party's candidate.

Beginning from their deliberate effort to divide and sabotage APC as far back as the needless and totally suicidal self-destructive actions that made the Party lose Edo State.

So much happened in the APC that showed some Northerners have no interest in being loyal to the integrity and efficacy of Political Parties.

Emefiele was even encouraged to attempt to be President in all the confusion and madness Buhari and his crew caused.

The incoherent joke Buhari made the APC saw so many buy Primaries ticket in a shambolic horsetrading charade that indicated factions in the APC were trying to outsmart themselves.

Hardly will you see Political Parties run this disracefully and shambolically anywhere else in the world, let along a ruling Party, but this was what Buhari and his Northern hawks caused because they could not accept that their time is over and that the strongest from the South had the right to contest and win.

PDP was no different with the arrogance and power-drunkeness of Atiku supported by the machinations of Tambuwal etal.

Long and short, the North was desperate to retain power directly, through a PDP Atiku win , or indirectly through a Southern stooge, like Emefiele, as the APC President.

It would have been a disaster and Nigeria will surely not survive a Northern Presidency since Buhari had totally destroyed the nation (security, economy, badly divided citizens etal) and another Northerner, because most mainly only play Conservative, illiberal, non-progressive and expedient politics, would see us finished.

I therefore thank Obi. I believe he saved Nigeria in his own way and God or Karma used him to ensure our nation qas not conceded into hands that would see her fall into the abyss when some had already taken her to the edge of the cliff.

The last 8 years reminded most Nigerians, painfully, that the North is not into developmental politics.
.

Other than your opinion on Obi's fitness for the presidency, it's hard to argue against what you wrote. There is clearly a strong ideological divide between most of the current Northern leaders and the Southern ones.

Everyday I learn more and more about the true extent of PMB's bigotry and nepotism on top of his certified incompetence. PBAT is already showing him up with his short time in office. The next time the North says "it's our turn" we must demand much better.

And I'm not sure they will even wait till 2031. I don't doubt for a second that someone like Kwankwaso is eyeing a North-SE alliance to take power back to the north early in 2027

This is partly why it's so disappointing to see the south divided on here. Everyday hate speech and propaganda lol.

PBAT bears responsibility in all this too. He gave us PMB because of his own personal ambition and I'm convinced he has also fuelled the fire on the southern divide. So if it backfires he can't really blame anyone but himself.

Goodluck to him sha. If he performs well I'll personally be obidiently batified despite the above.

God bless Nigeria ❤️

BluntCrazeMan:
You lied.


As far back as May 2022..
He had been a strong supporter of TINUBU..

https://twitter.com/FSApiccadilly/status/1529661633697665025

So, tell me the time he started the so called propaganda..

(For an account that was opened since December 2013)

SangoOlukosoOba Don’t run away oh. Come back and answer the question lol

JagabanBorgu:
People who voted the president voted him because we needed someone to perform, we trusted him to perform that's why we voted him, so don't bend the story that he is or will perform because of the Iósèrs.

Lol I’m sure Buharists voted with the same intention and yet PMB was a monumental failure with his strong mandate. You guys are always so sensitive for no reason.

It’s a simple fact that the PBAT's weak mandate is putting more pressure on him to perform.

You should be happy as a Nigerian ❤️

Rostikol:
Do you know that the only reason you believe in Jesus is that it was drilled into your head as a child before your brain was developed enough to filter out bullshiit?

If you heard the story as an adult for the first time, you would instantly reject it.

You would never accept that somebody was born by a virgin and raised the dead, and flew up into heaven at a dinner table before onlookers.

Indeed

Unless you experienced something similarly supernatural first hand in your personal life

Typing:
He just dey burst una LIES with proof.

If you say so lol

I love you too ❤️

If his goal was simply to become president of Nigeria one day then you can argue he made the wrong choice.

But Obi is an idealist and he sensed the pulse of the nation, particularly in the south and middle belt. And he did spectacularly well. He’s still in court fighting his case so let’s see how that goes too.

Either way he is playing a huge role because thanks to him the current president has a very weak mandate and is forced to perform unlike his incompetent predecessor who’s strong mandate made him arrogant in his ineptitude.