₦airaland Forum

Sagamite:
So if a man raised his child to be a strict muslim, then he is responsible if the child becomes a radical or for raising the child as one?

You mean the way they bombed UK when Richard Reid tried to detonate a shoe bomb?

If a man raised his Kid to be a strict Muslim, then he should make sure that Kid understands his own brand of Islam. I have friends who are very strict Muslims and their parents make sure they inculcate their brand of Islam on them.

Sorry i am not too conversant with the Richard Reid case, but i am certain his case would be treated as an isolated case of insanity and not tied to Muslim fundamentalism, and besides the UK and its citizens did not suffer the humiliation Nigerians are suffering now in foreign airlines and airports as a result of the failed bombing. I want you to imagine what would have happened had the bombing succeeded.

rethink:
@WIRINET

You are right his father give birth to him and trained him on how to blow up himself. Infact his father is responsible for everything the 23 year old did nobody should have any blame in the matter at all. Infact his mother is the happiest woman on earth, The father was just playing with the Americans when he reported the son 2 months Ago.

Thank you for showing us that we are now programmed from birth, We are no longer responsible for any action we take We should blame our Parents and tribes.

You are the righteous and most holy person let us give you a medal for pointing it out  to us so clearly.

WIRINET THE NEW GENERATION SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST

No sorry it is you that is correct. When his father gave birth to him, his first cry was "Allah U Akbar" and was already a fundamentalist Muslim. His father bears not responsibility at all for the character and values of his child, he is to just required to provide money for what ever the kid needs to show his love.

Now who is showing we are programmed from birth, me or you. If we are 100% responsible for our actions from birth, why are under 16s not held responsible for crimes and instead blame their parents and guidance. If a kid had been radicalized by others due to lack of adequate parental guidance and control, do you heap the blame 100% on the kid?

Sentimental Nigerians, so The father of Mutallab has now become a hero for reporting a  child he raised for being a social deviant.  Please explain to me who raised the kid to become a fundamentalist Muslim and who is paying for all the Islamic education(indoctrination) the child has been having. This Kid was probable a Fundamentalist Muslim before his teen years because he was said to be known as "Alfa" while in secondary school.

Patriotic act my foot, if the boy  had succeeded in bombing the plane, the anger of American people and government towards Nigeria and Nigerians (and not just Mutallabs family) would have made you realize how patriotic his act was. Remember every bombing of US planes by terrorists had always attracted US reprisals , ask Gadaffi and the Taliban.

When i say that the boy was mentally and emotionally disturbed, some people will argue with me. They also do not see a direct correlation between a child's mental and emotional development with the quality of parenting the child receives.

Here is the suspected facebook entry of the young mutallab.

According to The Washington Post, federal intelligence officials were reviewing the postings but have not independently confirmed their authenticity. However many of the details, including the fact that he went to a British boarding school in Togo, and that his parents were wealthy Nigerians, match those now known about Mr Abdulmutallab.

The newspaper, which has reviewed the postings reported that farouk 1986 (a combination of his middle name and his birth year) searched for friends online through Facebook and in Islamic chat rooms. In one such posting he wrote: "My name is Umar but you can call me Farouk."

A posting from January 2005, when he was attending boarding school, read: "I have no one to speak too [sic]. No one to consult, no one to support me and I feel depressed and lonely. I do not know what to do. And then I think this loneliness leads me to other problems."

Farouk1986 also wrote about considering applications to US and British universities, including University College London, from where he graduated in June 2008

In a June 2005 posting, when Mr Abdulmutallab is now known to have been in Yemen, farouk1986 wrote that he was in Yemen for a three-month Arabic course, saying that "it is just great" and raving about about the capital's shopping and restaurants, including Pizza Hut and KFC.

As a student at the British boarding school in Togo, Farouk1986 wrote that he was lonely because there were few other Muslims. "I'm active, I socialise with everybody around me, no conflicts, I laugh and joke but not excessively," he wrote in one posting. In the same posting he also wrote about desire and marriage, saying that at 18 he was not yet ready for it.

"The Prophet advised young men to fast if they can't get married but it has not been helping me much and I seriously don't want to wait for years before I get married," he wrote.

He said he had not started searching for prospective partners because of social norms such as having "a degree, a job, a house, etc. before getting married." But, he said, "my parents I know could help me financially should I get married, even though I think they are also not going to be in favour of early marriage."

He also wrote of his "dilemma between liberalism and extremism" as a Muslim. "The Prophet said religion is easy and anyone who tries to overburden themselves will find it hard and will not be able to continue," he wrote in 2005. "So any time I relax, I deviate sometimes and then when I strive hard, I get tired of what I am doing i.e. memorising the quran, etc. How should one put the balance right?"

Later that year he wrote that his parents were visiting him in London and said he was torn about whether he could eat meat with them.

"I am of the view meat not slaughtered by Muslims . . . is haram [forbidden] for consumption unless necessary," he wrote. "My parents are of the view as foreigners, we are allowed to . . . eat any meat. It occured [sic] to me I should not be eating with my parents as they use meat I consider haram. But I fear this might cause division and other complicated family problems."


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6970196.ece


If this is him, it at least shows what some of us have known for a long time - Islam does not fit with the modern day. Quite frankly, he is tormented and conflicted within himself. Yes on the outside, he appears to be normal, but on the inside, the desire to be "true" to his religion and at the same time engage in normal activity seem to tearing him apart. The same thing happened to Marvin Gaye.

Another thing here is that he appears to love the same Western world his religion teaching goes against.  Whatever the case, I doubt the court will take these in consideration at all.

This entry is a peek into the inner minds of the young lad, and I see a very lonely, unloved, confused young man. Now i need someone to help me answer a few posers;

Who made it mandatory for the child to memorized the Koran at a tender age of 19yrs when his mates are learning the facts of life. Were they preparing him to become an Imam?

Who encouraged him to go to study Arabic in Yemen and who funded the adventure, and why? when he should be either looking for a Job, Pursuing further degrees in Engineering or simply come back home to do his NYSC.

So you see the boy was left alone and he founded a new "parental guidance" from Al Qaeda.

I suspect foul play. How come he only "signed"  the supplementary budget and not even a word about other pressing issues, like the Nigerian terrorist.

What is the evidence that the signature was not photoshopped or even oluwoled

ferdiii:

WORD

In Nigeria, if you send off/to your a 2-yr-old abroad or dorm, you are a good parent. Togo faa? Very big blind Nigerians! That Umar boy will never work to support himself in this life. Parents will only steal more than enough to get rich and impoverish the brains of their children. Their children only suck pu ssy, smoke cocaine and now try to terrorize people. The west always turn blind eye on corruption, and looking at fat bank accounts and money to give visas. What goes around comes around. Brew the devil that will haunt you.

When they political elite destroy the education system, steal all the money and then feel they are insulated from the repercussions of a decayed educational system by sending their children to primary and secondary schools in Ghana, Togo, London and New york with loads of cash without parental guidance, this is the result.

Nigeria has a serious class divide which is even more than the tribal or ethnic divide. In Nigeria they arrest  and blame  fathers for the sins of their children if it is a poor family, sometimes landlords are even arrested for the sins of their tenants. But if it is a big man we make all sorts of excuses.

If this incident had happened to a poor family, i am sure the police and SSS would have raided the fathers house and thrown every man, woman and rat found into detention, until they can absolved themselves, and all those supporters here would have call the father names.

I am not saying the father is directly involved in the terrorist plot, but he should accept responsible for his child's behaviour and be a better parent to the other 15 (especially the minors among them)

It is quite annoying when people absolve the father of the boy by his so called "reporting his son" to the authorities, because of the company his son keeps, that truly beats my reasoning. So if your son brings in armed robbers and cultist home ( because he is still being catered for by his father as we are not told he his employed yet), you go and report to authorities and someone tells me the father had done a perfect parenting Job.

Now that he had reported to relevant authorities and he had been caught, who will pay for his legal services and other services in the us.  If his son is about to carry cocaine to China and he becomes aware, I am sure he will alert the Chinese authorities so that he will be absolved of all responsibility after his son is caught and beheaded.

People still have not been able to answer what the nature of this father report is. The press statement says he reported a missing child and not a terror threat.

Nigerians get sentimental on issues and prefers to call a spade an implement for excavating the ground.

~Bluetooth:
Wirinet
for every piece of information,there must be a little intelligence.The US received as many threats on a daily basis but why would they goof on this one.

They goofed probably because it was coming from an individual and not an official source and maybe the reporter (the father ) was not specific enough on the severity of the threat. maybe they did not have collaborative evidence and the boy had not been tied to any terrorist group. Most importantly, the individual comes from a country representing very little terrorist risk to US interest. They believe no Nigerian has enough reason to engage in suicide bombings as it had never been attempted before, both at home and abroad.

~Bluetooth:
Wirinet
let me school you a bit if you dont know but NO OFFENCE INTENDED.
After the 9/11,the united states signed the USA PATRIOT ACT into law WITHIN A MONTH.It covers all area of anti-terrorism both legal and illegal.It involves wire-tapping,phone bugging,interception of e-mails,static and mobile surveillance,illegal detentions,abuse of peoples' freedom,opening of guantanamo bay and other high profile dention centres and so many more.I learnt that apart from the israelis,the united is the best when it comes to counter-terrorism.That your analysis that the father did not call the boy a terrorist is a big joke.They  know more than us as they have their spies  everywhere who knows if they are on nL.A little intelligence is not wasted in the united states.

No offense taken, we are here to rub minds. But i think you are overestimating the efficiency of Us intelligence and even the Israeli intelligence.

We have not yet been told that the father raised serious concern about the security risks posed by his son, what the press release said was that he was worried about the whereabouts of his son. So lets not assume information we were not given.

The US cannot act on all reports by every individual, you have to be able to provide actionable and concise information and security reports. I believe the most sensible thing to do if the father actually felt his son was a terrorist threat, was to report officially to Nigerian authorities and then the Nigerian authorities after investigations would alert the US and other's concerned. The US would have taken the threat more serious if it was coming from Nigerian authorities.

If the US starts acting every little concern from individuals, then getting visas would become more cumbersome still and it is guys like you that will shout "blue murder". Mutallab's profile as a Nigerian does not represent a significant terrorist threat (at least until now), as we are more of a financial crime threat. So i could understand the us failure to isolate him.  You should also understand that Nigeria's (Muslims) anger with the US had not reached suicidal bombing proportions, but is confined to sympathy with Arabs over conflicts with Israel.

OMO IBO:
I do not understand the rationale behind blaming the parents for the sins of a full fledged 23 year old.

The mere fact that Dr Umaru AbdulMutallab alerted the US authorities to his son's rather radical activites speak volumes.
I believe he should be absolved of his sons actions.
Although, it would be interesting to know his stance/views with regards to the spate of suicide bombings in other parts of world.

The boy did not become a full fledged 23 overnight, he was brought up in the religion, language, culture of the parents and should have been imbibed the values of the parents also.

We are not told of the exact nature of the alert but if he told them that his son is a would be suicide bomber, i am sure the us authorities would have been more alert.

spikedcylinder:
Dude, everyone was born unclothed, no one came with a rule book. There's no clear cut approach to parenting as different methods work for different children. I think its the nature vs nurture thing. Farouk's parents did what they thought was best for him - sent him to the best schools money can buy and provided him with unimaginable comfort. There's no telling that he wouldn't have turned out the same way if they had kept him at home and sent him to Al-Amin grammar school.
Blaming the parents here is soooooo off the point.

Blaming the parents for a child's upbringing is soooooooo within the point, just a praising theparents for a child's achievements. If you attend an average traditional wedding in Nigeria, you will hear eulogies upon eulogies how the bridegroom or bride was well brought up by his parents, especially if the bride/bridegroom is doing well.

I am very concerned about the low level of parenting exhibited by our society today, it is wholly unafrican. In the recent past, the whole family was responsible for the children upbringing, and any major crime by the children was taken out (socially that is) on the whole family and sometimes on the whole clan. Before, a good family name was paramount and family heads makes sure children are brought up to certain minimum standards.

PARENTS SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR CHILD'S UPBRINGING.

As i said earlier, i am sure the child was mentally or emotionally disturbed,  and that has nothing to do with his educational attainment.

Someone does not become an extremist overnight, it takes years of discontentment, disorientation and disillusion.  If the father and mother had been alive to their responsibilities, they would have noticed his problems and sent him to a psychiatrist to psychoanalyze him. Because his reason for attempting suicide and killing hundreds of people is utterly senseless and Islamic fundamentalism alone cannot explain his actions.

~Sauron~:
Read between the lines.

The family alerted the US/UK embassies in Nigeria that they are not satisfied with the kinda company their son is keeping.
How many Nigerian families would do that to their own sons?
Stop apportioning blame, Farouk is the culprit. . . . .nothing to do with his family.

What has parenting gotta do with a son that is determined to go BAD?
He left Nigeria at an early age so they can provide him the best education possible. . . . .That is good parenting.
Farouk stayed in London for 3 years studying engineering with his tuition paid by his parents. . . . .Another good parenting.

His movement couldn't have been restricted. His parents stay in Nigeria, Farouk was staying in the UK where he probably got radicalised.
As soon as his parents suspected him to be misbehaving and travelling to the middle east, they alerted security officers.
America should be held responsible for giving this dude a Visa despite him being on their watch-list.

I won't quarrel with any of your arguments save the one bordering on parenting since i do not know the exact nature of the information provided to the US/UK embassies.

It saddens me that most Nigerians do not have an understanding of what parenting entails. And this is why we have so many social problems such as cultism, prostitution, 419, etc among the youths. Good parenting involves inculcating family values into your children and not allowing others to do it for you. That was the traditional African system. Even the western world we are trying to emulate emphasize parents inculcating values into their children before sending them into the world.

I have a cousin whose parents were very wealthy and they sent their first son abroad very early in life to some of the best schools in the world. The boy came back in his late teens a drug addict and social deviant and we have been taking him to Yaba periodically for the last 30 years. I always blame the parents for bed parenting.

The inmates of Yaba are mainly children of the high and mighty, some of whom had been brought back from the US.

I am very surprised you are asking what parenting has do with a son that is determined to go BAD. Sending a child to a good school is good, but that without parental guidance does not constitute good parenting.

I am not blaming the family directly for their son's crimes, what i blame them (especially the mother) for is for not contributing positively to the character of their child. The boy is clearly mentally disturbed. People find solace in religious extremism in order to cope with more disturbing mental and emotional problems

Although i sympathize with the Mutallabs, this press release is neither here nor there.

paddy_lo:
12.28.2009

Prior to this incident, his father, having become concerned about his disappearance and stoppage of communication while schooling abroad, reported the matter to the Nigerian security agencies about two months ago, and to some foreign security agencies about a month and a half ago, then sought their assistance to find and return him home.

The statement here does not say that the boy is an extremist with a propensity to commit terrorism, it says they were concerned that their son is missing and want foreign agencies to help them find him.

paddy_lo:
We provided them with all the information required of us to enable them do this. We were hopeful that they would find and return him home. It was while we were waiting for the outcome of their investigation that we arose to the shocking news of that day.

What kind of information did they provide, when they were actually seeking for information of his whereabouts and help return him home.

paddy_lo:
The disappearance and cessation of communication which got his mother and father concerned to report to the security agencies are completely out of character and a very recent development, as before then, from very early childhood, Farouk, to the best of parental monitoring, had never shown any attitude, conduct or association that would give concern. As soon as concern arose, very recently, his parents, reported it and sought help.

Further shows that they were more concerned about his whereabouts than his activities. So they were seeking help rather than trying to help.
How can they have provides the best parental monitoring and they do not know his whereabouts. How could they have provided parental anything when the boy had been away from home from such an early age.

That is tragedy facing our society today. Nigerian parents abdicating their responsibility for the upbringing of their children, They just throw money at them, feeling money equals parental love.

I believed the father is a culpable as the son for many reasons;

1. The father must take responsibility for the up bringing of his son and he must have been brought up with radical Muslim indoctrination.

2. The father is responsible for the boy's extravagant life style, since we are not told the boy is gainfully employed, where is he getting the funding to be traveling everywhere. For him to be able to obtain a US multiple visa, his father must have provide some sort of backing for him.

3. Why did the father not warn the US embassy on the exact nature of the threat, in order words, why did he not provide actionable intelligence instead of the nebulous warning of a threat. Can you truly say that the son had confided in the father the exact nature of those threats.
You cannot blame the US for not taking the threat serious enough.

4. Why did he not report the threat to the Nigerian authorities, preferably the SSS. They would have been a greater security checks on him while he was in Nigeria, especially when he is traveling in and out of Nigeria. The SSS are a quite efficient in monitoring the movements of people (especially enemies of government) in and out of our airports.

The father has some questions to answer.

Every individuals assembles his universe like a jig-saw puzzles using different pieces from his background, exposure, personality, education, and interests, that is why no two people can have identical sets of beliefs. So it is very wrong to proclaim anybody's belief system as stupid - From the trinitarian Christian to the Cow worshiping hindu. I assume we are only here to exchange ideas and probably expand our limited horizon, and not to judge anybody.

Merry Xmas and a happy new year.

Deep Sight:
Was it hidden? That is strange. Am I not the self same person who has opened a zillion threads tackling what I believe to be wrong with atheism?

I accept that there are differences between belief and knowledge.

However to have a belief that God does not exist, one must within one’s mind have a basis for that belief. The only basis that would be accurate is omniscience.

I really should have just shut my trap and never shared my apprehension of the Godhead with anybody. It is sickening the way every Tom manliness and Harry reverts to Oneness of Infinity when they cannot defend whatever it is that they are saying.

It particularly strikes me how people cannot see how simple the oneness of infinity concept is in relation to God. Afterall God is said to be ONE by the major monotheistic religions. He is also said to be eternal, or infinite. So what is so strange or new about a oneness of infinity by which I simply seek to expatiate on the Divine nature.

As i said, there is now point in explaining any further my  beliefs as an atheist, because to you it will be a silly proposition unless i could adopt your deism beliefs or Christianity type Monotheism/Polytheism

What about other forms of polytheism? is it a silly propositions also since your notion of God is very different from their beliefs, can you say it is in agreement with your oneness of infinity?

Deep Sight:
Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of God (or gods)

Agnosticism is a position that states that nothing can be known about God (or gods) the subject being too abstract for the human mind.

The Atheist states: God does not exist. The Agnostic states: I do not know, can never know, and it does not concern me.

Deep Sight:
This is a brilliant illustration of the stupidity and gross presumption of atheism.

Truly, the atheist must be omniscient, since he positively claims to know what exists or does not exist in other dimensions, including the ultimate transcendental dimension.

Deep sight, I am highly disappointed by your Above statements, you have dropped several notches in my admiration and respect for you. Your are now beginning to show your distaste and dislike for the Atheist's point of view, which had remained largely hidden until now.
For you to declare atheism as a silly presumption means that atheists have wasted their time debating with you all along.

In one breadth you define atheism as a disbelief in the existence of God (or gods) and in another you proclaim "the atheist must be omniscient, since he positively claims to know what exists or does not exist". I call that verbal aggression, or maybe you do not know the difference between knowledge and belief

So you define them as silly just because they cannot wrap their head around a less silly oneness of infinity belief.

ElRazur:
Most things do not make sense in these present day and age. HOwever, once one can add a few things together, it is not as overwhelming as it seems anymore. Whatever disclosure the FBI makes, I am guessing it would be either a fearful one or watered down version pending investigation and out come.

For all we know, he may have developed nerves and have conflict within him?

I disagree with you that most things do not make sense in these present day and age, unless you are telling me that most people are psychotic or we are living in a state of anarchy.

Let avoid unfounded conjecture  and wait for a full report before we start flying into conclusions.

ElRazur:
Are you kidding me? One of the biggest issue that have made Islam synonymous with terror [whether right or wrong] is the fact that unlike most religion, there is a strong brotherhood sense in Islam. This alone accounts for many reasons where random people - but mostly muslims - take up arms.

How can you say Islam is synonymous with terror? Do you know what terrorism means? There is a strong brotherhood with all religions, especially the Christian and Jewish religions. It is the Fragmentation of Christianity as a whole that means it seem to have a week brotherhood as a whole, but brotherhood among individual sects is a strong as any other religion.

The reason muslims take up arms is varied and complex, it ranges from political manipulations by the clerical class, to illiteracy, from perceived or real cultural domination and imposition by the west  to perceived or real military threats. I have many Muslim friends who are sad that the domination (perceived) of Christianity in Lagos is making it difficult to raise their children in the Muslim way of life in which they were brought up. Now if some lagos Muslims feel this way, imagine what the Kano muslim having the same frustration would feel. What i want you to realize is that Muslim aggression is not as simplistic as you wish. a better understanding each other's point of view is the panacea for peaceful coexistence. But is you continue your aggression towards others simply because they assemble their world different from yours, you are likely to breed aggression in return.

ElRazur:
Oh before I forget, the way your structured your second point shows a bias towards the US, the use of the words invasions and bombings. . . takes away the neutrality and questions your intent. Just an observation.

I am not bias towards the US. Even the average American view the[b] invasion and bombing [/b]of Iraq as unfortunate. Will you also call those Americans bias? Another sore point of American foreign policy is the support of Israel's settlement on Arab lands. (though that is not enough justification for suicide bombings).
 

ElRazur:
I hate to point this out again, but most site are reporting that he tried to ignite. [Ignition is usually addition of heat, energy, power etc to get a form of explosion going] even the BBC that is very cautious in it report by putting inverted commas are going all out to say what most are saying

There is no religion, region, race or country that is completely free from all known crimes, we had had Christian and Jewish terrorists, we have southern terrorists, the suspected bomber last week in Lagos is a southerner.

When you call Majority of Muslims  terrorists,i ask you how many of the over 60million Nigerian Muslims have been engaged in terrorist activities, what is the numerical strength of Boko Haram in comparism with the northern Muslim Population? What about world figures. What is the percentage of Al Qaeda compared to the more than 1 billion Muslim population?
What gives you the right to brand every Muslim from a particular region as terrorist?

The only way we can defeat extremism is by working together with the moderates.

ElRazur:
Most things do not make sense in these present day and age. HOwever, once one can add a few things together, it is not as overwhelming as it seems anymore. Whatever disclosure the FBI makes, I am guessing it would be either a fearful one or watered down version pending investigation and out come.


For all we know, he may have developed nerves and have conflict within him?

I disagree with you that most things do not make sense in these present day and age, unless you are telling me that most people are psychotic or we are living in a state of anarchy.

Let avoid unfounded conjecture  and wait for a full report before we start flying into conclusions.

ElRazur:
Are you kidding me? One of the biggest issue that have made Islam synonymous with terror [whether right or wrong] is the fact that unlike most religion, there is a strong brotherhood sense in Islam. This alone accounts for many reasons where random people - but mostly muslims - take up arms.

How can you say Islam is synonymous with terror? Do you know what terrorism means? There is a strong brotherhood with all religions, especially the Christian and Jewish religions. It is the Fragmentation of Christianity as a whole that means it seem to have a week brotherhood as a whole, but brotherhood among individual sects is a strong as any other religion.

The reason muslims take up arms is varied and complex, it ranges from political manipulations by the clerical class, to illiteracy, from perceived or real cultural domination and imposition by the west  to perceived or real military threats. I have many Muslim friends who are sad that the domination (perceived) of Christianity in Lagos is making it difficult to raise their children in the Muslim way of life in which they were brought up. Now if some lagos Muslims feel this way, imagine what the Kano muslim having the same frustration would feel. What i want you to realize is that Muslim aggression is not as simplistic as you wish. a better understanding each other's point of view is the panacea for peaceful coexistence. But is you continue your aggression towards others simply because they assemble their world different from yours, you are likely to breed aggression in return.

ElRazur:
Oh before I forget, the way your structured your second point shows a bias towards the US, the use of the words invasions and bombings. . . takes away the neutrality and questions your intent. Just an observation.

I am not bias towards the US. Even the average American view the[b] invasion and bombing [/b]of Iraq as unfortunate. Will you also call those Americans bias? Another sore point of American foreign policy is the support of Israel's settlement on Arab lands. (though that is not enough justification for suicide bombings).
 

ElRazur:
I hate to point this out again, but most site are reporting that he tried to ignite. [Ignition is usually addition of heat, energy, power etc to get a form of explosion going] even the BBC that is very cautious in it report by putting inverted commas are going all out to say what most are saying

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8430699.stm

Nobody is disputing the fact that [b]he tried to ignite [/b]something, the controversy is what and why? I am no expert, but i cannot see how he intend to blow up a plane ( (from the reports), by injecting a liquid into a powdery substance strapped to his leg and then lighting it up.  A bomb is usually tightly packed explosives fitted with a fuse or a detonating device. Maybe he was trying to burn the plane as against bombing the plane.

ElRazur link=topic=371719.msg5187890#msg5187890 date=1261825392:
It makes perfect sense. Terrorism can work in isolated cells - this reduces the risk of detection etc. Further more, just as the US is constantly seeking new ways to battle terrorism, the people intent of causing terrorism are look for new and ingenius way to harm the US, her allies and her interest.  Prior to sept 11, no one ever thought the US would be struck from above. For all we know, we may be witnessing a new phase of attack mode from Alqaeda?

A bit of generalization there from you. No one so far have called All Nigerian terrorist - well, I haven't. Yes case should be considered at individual merit, however, when a particular religion [notice I havent mentioned which religion here] seen to be associated with terror, it is only human that people perceive a type of pattern and association.

There is no religion, region, race or country that is completely free from all known crimes, we had had Christian and Jewish terrorists, we have southern terrorists, the suspected bomber last week in Lagos is a southerner.

When you call Majority of Muslims  terrorists,i ask you how many of the over 60million Nigerian Muslims have been engaged in terrorist activities, what is the numerical strength of Boko Haram in comparism with the northern Muslim Population? What about world figures. What is the percentage of Al Qaeda compared to the more than 1 billion Muslim population?
What gives you the right to brand every Muslim from a particular region as terrorist?

The only way we can defeat extremism is by working together with the moderates.

ElRazur:
Most things do not make sense in these present day and age. HOwever, once one can add a few things together, it is not as overwhelming as it seems anymore. Whatever disclosure the FBI makes, I am guessing it would be either a fearful one or watered down version pending investigation and out come.


For all we know, he may have developed nerves and have conflict within him?

I disagree with you that most things do not make sense in these present day and age, unless you are telling me that most people are psychotic or we are living in a state of anarchy.

Let avoid unfounded conjecture  and wait for a full report before we start flying into conclusions.

ElRazur:
Are you kidding me? One of the biggest issue that have made Islam synonymous with terror [whether right or wrong] is the fact that unlike most religion, there is a strong brotherhood sense in Islam. This alone accounts for many reasons where random people - but mostly muslims - take up arms.

How can you say Islam is synonymous with terror? Do you know what terrorism means? There is a strong brotherhood with all religions, especially the Christian and Jewish religions. It is the Fragmentation of Christianity as a whole that means it seem to have a week brotherhood as a whole, but brotherhood among individual sects is a strong as any other religion.

The reason muslims take up arms is varied and complex, it ranges from political manipulations by the clerical class, to illiteracy, from perceived or real cultural domination and imposition by the west  to perceived or real military threats. I have many Muslim friends who are sad that the domination (perceived) of Christianity in Lagos is making it difficult to raise their children in the Muslim way of life in which they were brought up. Now if some lagos Muslims feel this way, imagine what the Kano muslim having the same frustration would feel. What i want you to realize is that Muslim aggression is not as simplistic as you wish. a better understanding each other's point of view is the panacea for peaceful coexistence. But is you continue your aggression towards others simply because they assemble their world different from yours, you are likely to breed aggression in return.

ElRazur:
Oh before I forget, the way your structured your second point shows a bias towards the US, the use of the words invasions and bombings. . . takes away the neutrality and questions your intent. Just an observation.

I am not bias towards the US. Even the average American view the[b] invasion and bombing [/b]of Iraq as unfortunate. Will you also call those Americans bias? Another sore point of American foreign policy is the support of Israel's settlement on Arab lands. (though that is not enough justification for suicide bombings).
 

ElRazur:
I hate to point this out again, but most site are reporting that he tried to ignite. [Ignition is usually addition of heat, energy, power etc to get a form of explosion going] even the BBC that is very cautious in it report by putting inverted commas are going all out to say what most are saying

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8430699.stm

Nobody is disputing the fact that [b]he tried to ignite [/b]something, the controversy is what and why? I am no expert, but i cannot see how he intend to blow up a plane ( (from the reports), by injecting a liquid into a powdery substance strapped to his leg and then lighting it up.  A bomb is usually tightly packed explosives fitted with a fuse or a detonating device. Maybe he was trying to burn the plane as against bombing the plane.

ElRazur link=topic=371719.msg5187890#msg5187890 date=1261825392:
It makes perfect sense. Terrorism can work in isolated cells - this reduces the risk of detection etc. Further more, just as the US is constantly seeking new ways to battle terrorism, the people intent of causing terrorism are look for new and ingenius way to harm the US, her allies and her interest.  Prior to sept 11, no one ever thought the US would be struck from above. For all we know, we may be witnessing a new phase of attack mode from Alqaeda?

A bit of generalization there from you. No one so far have called All Nigerian terrorist - well, I haven't. Yes case should be considered at individual merit, however, when a particular religion [notice I havent mentioned which religion here] seen to be associated with terror, it is only human that people perceive a type of pattern and association.

There is no religion, region, race or country that is completely free from all known crimes, we had had Christian and Jewish terrorists, we have southern terrorists, the suspected bomber last week in Lagos is a southerner.

When you call Majority of Muslims  terrorists,i ask you how many of the over 60million Nigerian Muslims have been engaged in terrorist activities, what is the numerical strength of Boko Haram in comparism with the northern Muslim Population? What about world figures. What is the percentage of Al Qaeda compared to the more than 1 billion Muslim population?
What gives you the right to brand every Muslim from a particular region as terrorist?

The only way we can defeat extremism is by working together with the moderates.

For me, i am yet to take a position on the whole issue, because the story as presently told does not make sense. I will wait for a full disclosure by the FBI or for the court case to decipher what actually happened. Be these are the areas i find confusing;

1. Why would a would-be suicide bomber wait till a plane is about to land before attempting to blow up the plane, when the plane had flown at a high attitude over the ocean for over 6 hours. The explosion would have had minimum damage to the plane at such low altitude and if the pilot is not affected by the explosion, chances are that he might still manage to land the plane.

2. We understand that most Nigerians are unhappy with the US military activities in Muslim countries- especially the Muslims but i do not think the resentment is strong enough to carry out suicide bombings of America's interest, especially when we are not directly affected by US invasions and bombings. We are not even told the grievances of the suspected bomber but we told all his other claims.

3. The story is not specific on weather the substance is a bomb or an inflammable powder. Also all we are told at the moment are the suspect's "claims", no investigative report yet.

4. Even the claims that he is working on behalf of Al Qaeda does not make sense, as everybody knows that Al qaeda's operations are usually multiple coordinated multiple explosions, and not single one off bombings.

I do not know why Nigerian are expert at making a mountain out of a molehill, even if one individual of Nigerian origin, but of British citizenship having sympathy for Osama Bin Ladin, should carry out a terrorist attack, does that make all Nigerians or Northern Nigerians Terrorists?. With all the terrorists from Saudi Arabia (Osama Bin Ladin's country), UAE, and Qatar, their citizens are not even considered terrorists. They are considered on individual basis.

Eziachi:
I could say the same for you, you can make your point without been a straight jacket. The word "Governor" I used was not mean to be governor as in position, it a normal term use to denote, a big man, man in charge. Some use "Chairman" too in the same category. But because you can't think and had your warped misconception about me you went wild without getting the satire. The 4th wife wasn't portrayed as fact, but comical presentation of the picture, which shown the man looking more like the father of the bride than the groom.

I think you take yourself too serious, always alluding to what I do for a living, which has nothing to do with picture I posted as a funny side of the debate.  If you have any hidden issue about me, that is yours to sort out, try not to bring irrelevant issue like my profession over a picture into it.

I agree with last page, you are misrepresenting and twisting facts to conform to your biases just like you do with your professional judgments.

First and foremost it is a big lie that Nigerians use  Governor to connote any other thing than a current or past governor ( Most past governors drop the governor title after their terms), or at worst a present or past Governor of the central Bank. So for you to say Nigerians call any "big man" governor is either pure deceit or ignorance.

Yes, most  "big men" (especially the very successful Igbo trader) in Nigeria are called chairman, but hat is usually by their workers, colleagues, friends and family and not an appellation the press would carry. The press would rather use the title "Chief".

I am amazed you could deduce that the woman in the picture is a 4th wife by just looking at the picture. I think you should be a profiler, FBI and MI5 are looking for talents like you. You could rule out the possibility that the "governor" is not a widower or divorcee marrying another wife, or even the woman question is not a second or third or even 7th wife, just from the picture. Wonderment as i always say.

Dr., i think you are carrying your "Boko Haram" against polygamy too far.

Deep Sight:
Wirinet -

You stated in a thread i opened some time ago that you do not regard emotions as physical things.

How do you reconcile a belief in non-physical things with pure materialist atheism please?

M deep sight, you and this your emotional physical things and non physical things, I could no longer see the direction the debate is going and so felt no motivation to respond further.

Saying that emotions is a physical thing is oxymoronic, because when you say physical or material things, i assume you are talking about Matter as taught is integrated science and there is no way Emotion fits such a description. Your all encompassing definition of physical things will include every word in the English dictionary.

There are many non physical things or terms to be more specific , atheist do not say the universe is made up of only matter, there is energy too, there is space-time, and there are infinite interactions between the three. But the problem i have with you is to regard every noun, verb, adjective  as a physical thing. To you words like love, kill, cry,  fear is now a physical thing, or are you only referring to emotions as physical things?

Tudor, sorry to hear of your accident. At least i know you are alright or else you would not be able to post.

As for me Atheism came Naturally, no conversion involved. I think the fact that i was born in a riverine village deep at the heart of the Niger Delta is the main reason, i was not consumed by Christianity. I did not come in contact with western civilization and its attendant religion - Christianity, until i was 6 yrs when i came to settle in Lagos. I was baptized at 7 yrs in the African church (African version of the Anglican church) and i naturally coasted along with the religion without even giving it a thought. I also attended Catholic Primary School and Secondary School and also coasted along in all the rituals without giving them a thought.

My problem started when i was in form four and was now actually thinking of the sense in the whole thing, and i could find none. Once i asked the big question of my teacher of Who Created God, and the scolding i got was severe and the fear put in me gave me one week of sleepless nights. On recovering i decided not to think of the question again. By the time i went for A levels the question took over my mind again, this time with more troubling ones like what is the purpose of life and the universe. What is spirit and soul, and myriads of others. Then i was so disoriented that i was a very unhappy person. I searched through so many books, Philosophy, the Bible and eastern spiritual books , and still i found no answers

When i got to the university as OAU had an extensive Library. I sifted through more disciplines like Paleontology,  Religious history, World mythologies, Prehistoric history, and advanced astronomy and cosmology ( i had learnt basic astronomy in secondary school). I was reading these topics even more than my course of sturdy which was Architecture. And i can say by the time i graduated with my first degree, everything became clear as crystal and i have been living a very fulfilled life since.

I do not have many fears and have not had a nightmare for over 25 years, in fact i rarely dream. I am more a peace with myself, my environment and the universe, i have no fear whatsoever of death( except the fear of the fate of my family if i am gone).  I am in control of my life 100%.  My conscience is my God.  I have no enemy that i know off ( i just avoid people i am not in harmony with, but i do not hate them or wish them bad).

So that is a summery of my "conversion" story and how i feel.  I still owe Chrisbenogor my complete story though.

edoyad:
@winiret, unfortunately for your supposed convecture i'm not from the south east. But believe me if There's any region of Nigeria that would thrive most, not only in a true federal system but, in the event of a break up of Nigeria into atleast 6 zones, i know the south east would be it.
And as for states, there created for administrative purposes and not for bleeding national treasuries. But ofcourse when people who are in govt dont know what govt is about(Nigerians in general), they think It's about largesse

Sorry for assuming that you are from the south east. But i am not totally convinced that the south east will thrive very well in the event of a break up of Nigeria. First according to my own assumptions the only viable states in the south east as constituted in present day Nigeria is Anambra ( because of industrial and commercial centres) and probably Enugu (if its coal resources can be commercially harvested), all others states will crumble if the national cake stops coming from Abuja.

Yes states should be created for efficient administrative purpose, but your administrative units should not take up the major part of your income. Every state has a governor and deputy governor , at least 15 commissioners, at least 23 house of reps members, numerous special advices for both governor and deputy, a civil service consisting of thousands of civil servants. Add to that chairmen of at least 15 local government and all their chancellors. You have to cater for whimps and caprices of all these political offices and senior members of the civil service. If a small state like say Enugu is asked to rely on taxes generated, i do not see how they can pay for their government apparatus.


A major problem that will confront the south east in the event of a breakup is the fact that most of their best manpower is outside the zone, and i do not see them coming back if Nigeria breaks up.

The most crucial problem will be the absent of access to the sea. Except they can convince Rivers state to come with them, the south east will be a landlocked region. And you cannot thrive without a sea port.

If you doubt me check the budgets of all the states (financed from the national cake of course)and see how much of their expenditure is termed recurrent( money for maintaining the government)and how much is capital. Your will always see that recurrent always outstrip capital, and that does not include the money for the local governments.

Now look at the recurrent and see if the states can generate that amount without money from Abuja.

In today's new world order Larger political units are favourable to small units, due to a smaller more efficient government and its ability to ensure social integration and harness the manpower of a greater number of people.

One of the greatest problems in Nigeria is our social fractionalization brought about by state and local government creation, which was initially designed to divide the Igbos, but have now ended up dividing all other tribes.

Most social crises in Nigeria has its roots in Local government creation.

edoyad:
@ winiret, if my peoples demand for state creation is heeded to, what stops the demand of the south-south people for resource control from being accepted also ? The reason some regions refuse to accept resource control is because they feel that one region would possess enormous wealth while other regions would suffer, that is so wrong. If there is a steady and gradual introduction of resource control into the system, that would allow other regions the opportunity to develop their economic advantages before the eventual full implementation.
So, south west develops and exploits cocoa, education and commerce and yahoo yahoo.
South east develops trade, manufacturing, mining and drug trafficking.
Middle belt develops agriculture, mining and alcohol.
North east and North west develops cattle rearing, sharia and gateman LOLs

Believe me if resource control takes effect and every region is responsible for what it can produce and pay taxes to the center, the clamour for states (and the need to falsify elections and population figures) would die a natural death. I am sure the states in the region will start to coalesce in order to run a lean more cost effective government and free money for development instead of the current arrangement whereby the regions spends over 80% of their budgets in running their governments leaving very little is left for development. Please tell me under the present arrangements why does the east require 5 different governments, when they performed creditably with one government during the first republic.

The reason regions clamour for more and more states is in order to get a bigger share of the national cake.

If your people are trading, manufacturing, mining and swallowing cocaine to survive and you are paying relevant taxes, i doubt you would want to foot the bills of 5 different governors, not to talk of additional ones.

Although becomerich is eccentric, it should not mean we cannot consider the merits of his arguments. After all some of the genius of societies are often associated with eccentricity.

Having said that, i have often raised the question that it is a kind of paradox for Nigeria to be existing under a military decree nicknamed "The 1999 Constitution", when we had a properly constituted constitution at independence. Most of our problems stems from this anomaly, because the relationships between the ethnic nationalities which make up Nigeria is undefined. The so called states are also inappropriate because the criteria for what constitutes a state is unknown, because in some situations you will have a major tribes be made minorities in several states.

How is it that a few men (less than ten) would sit together to decide how to cut Nigeria into states irrespective of cultural, tribal or social affinity and expect such society to be without conflict. The state in Nigeria are to much, they just act as drain pipes to the Nigerian economy instead of being the hub of development.

KunleOshob:
You forgot to wish us a merry christams as well

Jesus!!, Must be the devils pen devils keyboard. Thanks for discovering the enemy's plan of not wanting me to wish my comrades a merry Christmas . The Devil is a lair ;

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR YOU ALL.


.

edoyad:
Unfortunately/fortunately my zone(my people in particular) are after state creation not secession. We don't need anybody's oil money to prosper, we're generally hard working people who excel in all endeavours and cherish the positive values of man kind. I empathize with the cheated people of the south-south that's why i speak here, they have been robbed for far too long.

If your wishes are granted and more states are created for your zone, it will mean more governors, commissioners, houses of assemblies, new capitals, new local governments, etc.
So how do you hope to fund these new states? O let me hazard a guess : From oil money from the Niger delta which you claim you do not need. Please tell me i am wrong.

We have been going round and round with this topic with the same people with cast iron mindset, parroting the same arguments from page 1 without even looking at the merits of superior arguments on the matter. Human sexuality cannot strictly be regulated by a one-size-fit all-law. What is acceptable in one society and time can be a taboo in another society and another time. For example marrying off 15 yr old girls is a crime in the western world, but it is a norm in other societies. So also Legal polygamy (informal polygamy is the norm even in western countries).

And I have always warned people not to consider themselves to be a beacon for morality and self righteousness based on their tunnel vision. Polygamy has its uses in societies that practices it.

BrutusOne:
Polygamy was also practiced in the past in the West, and it was found to be morally deficient and a way of oppressing the opposite gender… but you won’t be convinced because you’re programmed to follow your tradition blindly, no matter how educated you are. There are doctors out there who feel women should be mutilated, all in the name of female circumcision. So I am not surprised at all.

Nigeria - Sex ratio:    
at birth: 1.06 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.94 male(s)/female
total population: 1.04 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

A male/female ratio of 1.04 does not in any way equate to a ratio Female/Male of 2:1. As a matter of fact it indicates that there are slightly more men than women. This practice is strictly economic oppression of women by cowardice Nigerian men. I don’t know any woman who’s happy to be in polygamy – they simply take it because they have no better alternative, economically.

I do think with my brain, but I allow my conscience to make moral decisions for me.

My friend i do not know where you get your voodoo statistics from, but it is logically flawed, but i will come to that later.

You make statements without any bearing with reality. Whose opinion is it, that polygamy is a way of oppressing the opposite gender? is it the female gender themselves or male gender anticipating the female gender.
Positions on Polygamy depends on who you are asking. Yes if you ask young girls about polygamy, they are likely to shake their buts and roll their tongues, saying " I can never share my man with anybody". But if you ask a thirty something year old woman who has less than 15 years to menopause, the would obviously see nothing wrong with being wife no.2 or even no.3. Same goes for the woman who is over 45 and had lost her husband to a younger, sexually appealing young girl through divorce. She would rather have remained "senior" wife than no ones wife. What should be the fate of a woman who is nearing menopause without being able to tie down a man? I do not think such woman would mind being a 7th wife or even mind being called a mistress, she would be more interested in having a child for a man who can take care of the child. You people imagine every body's life is a mirror image of you own, and so it is convenient to judge people by your standards from your comfort zone.

As i had said earlier, there is no social safety nets for women and children in Africa.

Now to your dubious statistics.
First it is common knowledge that Nigerian Population figures is a joke (ask Becomerich), and every state in Nigeria contested its accuracy. The case of Lagos was worse where the population figures was put at about 15 million, but the house count by Lagos state government was put at about 8 million. So are you saying that we have an average of two people living in each house in Lagos? The population of tiny festac alone is over two million. So we cannot base any argument on the population census cooked up to collect more revenue from the National cake.

If we are to use common sense, it is officially recognized generally that life expectancy of women is higher than that of men, And in Nigeria it is officially put at 46 yrs for men and 48 yrs for women but i am sure the difference is much wider as most celebrity wives outlive their husbands, eg Awolowo, Tai Solarin, Tos Benson, Gani (his two wives are alive and kicking with no complaints)  . So in effect men geerally die earlier than women. This is also evident in that there being more landladies than landlord in Lagos, and these house are usually built by their husbands.  If you go to any church organized singles seminar, you will find out a disproportionate number of women looking for husbands.

Thanks Chrisbenogor for you vote, coming from someone of your caliber, i am overwhelmed. Also thank ilosiwaju and Mazaje for your confidence.

For me, to vote one person as my Favourite Nairaland Religion Personality is a Herculean task. I believe every regular contributor to this forum has enriched our lives with new perspective about religious issues. I wish the larger Nigerian society can take a cure from this.

I am proud to be a Nigerian because you cannot find more diverse and intellectually stimulating debates from ordinary people anywhere else in the world. It shows we can be truly great as a people if each of us is allowed to express ourselves religiously, socially and even politically, instead of the stifling strait-jacketed society we are living under.

My heart goes out to all you guys, Huxley, Davidylan, ilosiwaju, Olabowale, Viaro, Mavenbox, Tudor, Toneyb, Chrisbenogor, Mazaje, Banon ( though subdued since his reconversion). Others are My Olaadegbu Kola Oloye, MrCrackles, Atheists, SeanT21, Horus, Bawomolo , Noetic, KunleOshob, Krayola, Mazaje and Ogaga4luv. Can't forget Pastor AIO and all other contributors.

Here is to wishing you all a wonderful new year and a fulfilled new year.